Gestalt Kitchen Sink Build

[Santas3rdForm]

Hey Playground! I'm joining an upcoming Lv 20 Gestalt Game. I was asked to Create a Jack of all trades build.

We have a:
Cleric/Crusader
Sorcerer/Paladin
Wizard/Monk
and a Half Minotaur Feral Mineral Warrior Lolth touched Frenzy Berzerking Barbarian

The build I put together is as Follows

Factorum 8/ Chameleon 10/ Crusader 1/Warbalde 1//Bard 3/Barb 2(Crafty hunter Spirit Lion Wolf Totem)/Fighter 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/ Sleeping Tiger Monk 2/ Dread Necro 1/ Rogue 1/ Grave touched Ghoul LA 2/ Evolved Undead LA 1/ Marshal 1/ Swordsage 1/Psion 1/ Abrupt Jaunt Wizard 1/ Warlock 1/

Now I know that it is very Kitchen Sinky...but it does just about everything

What does the Playground think?

Edit: Also I would be using Items such as Monks belt and Vest of Legends to gain the most out of my Monk and Bard Dips

[Pluto!]

Do you need levels in that many classes to feel like the all-purpose problem solver? Generally, most classes with actual mechanics attached to them develop more new abilities or problem-solving expertise going from level 8 to 9 or 16 to 17 than starting picking up a new level 1.

Frankly, I were trying to cover all possible bases, the build would look a lot more like Archivist 20//Psionic Artificer 20 than class A1/class B1/class C1/class D1...

It looks like the core of the build in both competence and flexibility is the Factotum 8/Chameleon 10 part. If keeping with this build, I'd stick to that half, maybe dress it up slightly (I'd be too tempted to cap it with Monk 2 and Kung Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk), and use the other half to really delve deep into some subsystem or other to develop the power and scaling versatility to support this kind of character. Even if the subsystem half is just Lurk or PsyRogue manifesting, I think it would be better able to address wide arrays of problems and to appropriately adapt to varied situations. Honestly though, I'd bet Binder 20 would make a pretty solid opposite to Chameleon, and even the chassis would be nice during the Factotum levels.

EDIT: If the suggestion of Binder 20 looks shallow next to all the level dips you're considering, you might want to check out what comes out of those levels - an Abrupt Jaunt-like flicker effect, ten or so psionic powers from those mind's eye vestiges, full monk unarmed strikes, full turning, level-appropriate summons and, generally speaking, level-appropriate degrees in competence in a wide variety of fields - more than a lot of those dips look like they're going to hit.

[Jack_Simth]

Hey Playground! I'm joining an upcoming Lv 20 Gestalt Game. I was asked to Create a Jack of all trades build.

We have a:
Cleric/Crusader
Sorcerer/Paladin
Wizard/Monk
and a Half Minotaur Feral Mineral Warrior Lolth touched Frenzy Berzerking Barbarian

The build I put together is as Follows

Factorum 8/ Chameleon 10/ Crusader 1/Warbalde 1//Bard 3/Barb 2(Crafty hunter Spirit Lion Wolf Totem)/Fighter 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/ Sleeping Tiger Monk 2/ Dread Necro 1/ Rogue 1/ Grave touched Ghoul LA 2/ Evolved Undead LA 1/ Marshal 1/ Swordsage 1/Psion 1/ Abrupt Jaunt Wizard 1/ Warlock 1/

Now I know that it is very Kitchen Sinky...but it does just about everything

What does the Playground think?

Edit: Also I would be using Items such as Monks belt and Vest of Legends to gain the most out of my Monk and Bard Dips
It'll work, depending on the optimization level of the campaign, but... you're going Undead, so you're going to be FRAGILE (at least without something like Faerie Mysteries Initiate). You also do not have full casting - and generally speaking, you're going to need that at 20th.

The Divine is covered, the Arcane is double-covered, and the melee appears to be triple-covered already. You need a skillmonkey in the party. Clearly, the game is OK with massive LA, which is a good thing (from an optimization standpoint).

You might consider finding a way to get full casting. There's a couple of critters that get casting based on their hit dice, but that would mean giving up the option of Chameleon, and that floating bonus feat is really, really nice to have. You have a Paladin in the party, so Ur-Priest is out... Sublime Chord could work. Maybe something like...

A: Cloistered Cleric-1/Bard-1/Abrupt Jaunt Wizard-3/Master Specialist-3/Chameleon-2/Sublime Chord-1/Dweomerkeeper-9 (Complete Divine Web Enhancement)
B: Factotum-8/Ghost (LA+5)/Evolved Undead (LA +1)/[6 levels of dips]

1 level of Sublime Chord casting, which you increase via Dweomerkeeper to 10th. Stack it with Abrupt Jaunt Wizard casting, and take Practiced Spellcaster (for Abrupt Jaunt Wizard), and you have a caster level of 20 for Sublime Chord casting (and 10 for Abrupt Jaunt Wizard).

Factotum gets you Cunning Surge, for your action economy smashing. Dweomerkeeper gives you Supernatural Spell, which you use on Wish to bypass the XP costs. Duplicate Simulacrum - with no need for components at all, you get to make simulacrums of arbitrary creatures, and you're not paying XP. So you can get 20 HD critters under your absolute command (more, with tricks to boost caster level, such as the Bead of Karma, Orange Prism Ioun Stones, the Archmage's Spell Power, et cetera). Keep only one at a time, and posses it (order it to fail the save). You have now gotten out of the drawbacks of being undead, while maintaining Rejuvination (when the Simulacrum dies, you pop out - if you're killed again before you replace the simulacrum, you revive in 2d4 days) and all your class features. Use the Chameleon's Floating Feat to get Extra Spell for any situational Sorcerer, Wizard, or Bard spell you might want... and, of course, you can just make a simulacrum of a suitable spellcasting critter to get Divine casting if you need it (I'm fond of Solars).

[Santas3rdForm]

The only reason I didnt Go for 9th level spells is that we have that covered twice on the arcane side and once for the divine already.

Also I plan on using(Abusing) Divine Meta Magic.

[Jack_Simth]

The only reason I didnt Go for 9th level spells is that we have that covered twice on the arcane side and once for the divine already.

Also I plan on using(Abusing) Divine Meta Magic.
The problem with not having 9th level spells available is power curves.

At low levels, the bruiser classes pretty much rule the roost, skill based classes are about mid-level, and the full casters take up the rear (Full Casters can do very well, but it takes a lot more work). At mid levels, things mostly even out (Full Casters can stomp everyone else, but it takes a bit more work), and at high levels (where you're starting), Full Casters pretty much rule the roost, skill based classes are about mid-level, and the bruisers are at the bottom of the pile. Unless it is a very low-optimization game, if you do not have Full Casting, you are very likely to feel left behind. Plus, it's Gestalt. You can be the Jack of All Trades and still have Full Casting.

[Santas3rdForm]

Its not High Op whatsoever.
The wizard and Sorcerer are using mostly blasty spells with very few of the real gamebreaking/batman ones.
and Its the Clerics first game.
Im only worried about our Barbarian.

[Santas3rdForm]

Also...doesnt dual 9's or even single 9's plus the factorum/Chameleon base seen extremely overpowered compared to the rest of the party makeup?

[Phelix-Mu]

Only if you are making excessive use of breaking action economy (which is often no fun in actual practice at an irl table because you will soak up so much time taking your turn). Sparse use of extra actions will end up not so much better than other maxed full casters, because pretty much every breed of full caster has action economy shenanigans available.

A big question is will Epic Spellcasting be allowed? Once it is, anyone that can't create epic spells is likely to be swiftly overshadowed. Also, the game will become extremely hyperbolic at that point, as literally anything can be made into a spell with the given RAW for mitigation. I designed a spell that permanently summoned a solar and bound it to the character's body/soul, so that the solar existed only as a set of extra actions and spellcaster abilities, with no body but able to use the character's body when necessary. All RAW, and all that stops any table from using it is the DM's okay. Much less bizarre, and vastly stupider things are all on the table with Epic Spellcasting.

Barring Epic Spellcasting, I'd still advise some brand of 9ths. Access to a problem-fixer like wish/miracle/reality revision is pretty handy, especially given the scope of problem DMs are wont to throw at 20th level gestalt parties. Shapechange/gate and also max levels of metamagic (and 10th slots and above for metamagicking) are also handy. Also worth mentioning is demiplanes. Yes, you could UMD a demiplane, but being able to use it for yourself is more foolproof and feels a tad bit cooler.

As a veteran of several epic campaigns over a couple different editions, you should streamline stuff. A very long list of disparate abilities is very useful, but only if you can remember the right one at the right time. Your list is very long, and I'd wager that you would only regularly rely on about 1/3 of it. Trim it down and fill in the gaps with a Tier 1 or 2 toolbox, and you will, I think, find it easier to manage.

[Santas3rdForm]

Thanks for the reply. As far as I know the game will not be heading into Epic whatsoever,I belive it will be a Political/Kingdom building game, with less dungeon diving than average. I am just wondering if This build would be viable in a Low to Mid Op level game? And If Not What small chunks would you change?
Another question. People say that Undead are Squshy but isnt D12 without con better than d8 with at best a plus 2 without Items/spells?

[Darth Stabber]

Factotum//anything int based is going to be an amazing jack of all trades master of one. I'm working on a warblade//factotum who's mostly built for charging, but by virtue of flexibility of the classes involved he's got all sorts of neat tricks available, and still able to do nearly anything. There are manay classes that let you actually be good at contributing in several ways at higher levels, where as mixing that many classes together is a surefire way to be bad at a lot of things.

Binder - you get to be really good at a couple things choosen every morning.
Incarnate - like above, but more granular.
Factotum - can do nearly anything on very little notice, the previous offer day to day flexibility where as factotum has round to round flexibility.
swordsage - a bit more narrow, but still has enough options that he will always have something fun to contribute.
totemist - like incarnate with more combat focus
druid - yeah it's a full divine caster, but it can do almost anything, and it can do most of those things better than classes that "specialize" in that.

My personal recommendation would be something like pixie LA4/totemist4/warshaper4/swordsage8//druid20. You are a massively powerful combat monster, but you have all the tricks in the world if you set it up right. You have skills, you have spells, you can turn into animals (which is way strong, and way tricky if you set it up right), and thanks to pixie you have several other weird abilities.

Alternately wizard//factotum can do everything, yes, even that.

[Santas3rdForm]

How would somthing like this work.


Factorum 8/ Ur-Priest 10/ X 2//Wizard 20?

[bekeleven]

I'm building an infiltration-specced jack-of-all-trades for a campaign I'm joining now.

My build (at level 20) will look something like:

Factotum 20//La+1/ClCleric 1/Human Paragon 3/Chameleon 10/Marshal 1 1/Exemplar 1/Swashbuckler 3.

I could probably shuffle a few things to get my last iterative, but you get the point. I didn't let my chameleon interrupt my factotiness.

A few notes on your build:

Factotum's usefulness scales well with level.

If you want high-op, use Planar Touchstone tricks for higher casting on chameleon.

You don't need monk levels to use a monk's belt. In fact, you don't even need monk levels to take Kung-Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk.

Anyway, my character is using int for:

All dex and str-based skills (Factotum: Brains over Brawn)
Wisdom-based skills besides profession and listen (Keen Intellect)
Will Saves (Keen Intellect)
HP per level (Faerie Mysteries Initiate)
Attack and damage (Weapon: Thunderlance)
Damage (Swashbuckler, Insightful Strike)
Attack and Damage (Inspiration Point, optional)
AC (Monk's Belt + Kung Fu Genius)
AC (Greater Cunning Defense)
AC (Inspiration Point, Optional)
All Saves (Inspiration Point, Optional)
Chameleon's Divine Bonus Spells (Academic Priest)

I looked for ways to get int to my (other) saves constantly, as well as to get int to marshal auras, but there were no practical ones.

[Santas3rdForm]

My only problem with Factorum 20 is it seems to loose Umph after Lv 8 where I could put Other classes or dips for better features.

[bekeleven]

Factotum could stop getting class features after 11 and I'd keep leveling it for level to skill checks, increased inspiration and a couple extra spells.

Instead if gets spells up to 7th level, Int to AC constantly, ability to ignore incapacitating attacks, ((6+wis)*(int+level*2)) healing, and a hilarious capstone.

[Rebel7284]

Black ethergaunt 20// Factotum 8/Chamelion 10/Swordsage 2

+20 racial int and 17th level wizard casting gives you some awesome flexibility.

Factotum 11/Eldrich Master 8/x1 // Beguiler 13/Mindbender 1/other PrC+6 (not in this order)

Eldrich Master gives you extra spell lists. Use it on a beguiler to cast say, wizard and cleric spells spontaneously.

[Zovc]

Beguiler and Duskblade are both fun classes to gestalt with. Heck, they're even fun to gestalt together.

I mention them because they each could nudge you more towards the "Jack of all Trades" than having to optimize a lot of classes.

For the small cost of:
Alignment: Any neutral
Skills: Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks, Survival 4 ranks
Feats: Touchstone (City of the Dead)
Spells or Spell-Like Abilities: Arcane caster level 5th.

You can become a Sand Shaper (from the book Sandstorm) and expand your spells known by a lot.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd avoid Ur-Priest if you are worried about meeting/exceeding the op levels of the others. If they are as low as you seem to be implying, then Ur-Priest in gestalt is probably uncalled for.

The reason why d12 hd via undead is frowned upon is because of the way hd scales with level.

d8 + Con Mod, with a +6 item and +5 inherent from wishes gives, assuming a 10 Con (which is pretty much the lowest functional Con anyone should take in general), gives us an additional +10 to Con, ending up somewhere in the early 20s, or at least +5hp/HD. That beats the +2hp/HD (average) of the larger d12. As levels go on, less and less of hp comes from HD, while more comes from Con bonus.

Depending on cheese levels, one can Faerie Mysteries Initiate their way out of it with a favorable DM view on the duration of the ritual (perform the ritual before you become undead...never really looked at the RAW on this, so don't quote me). But FMI requires that you be an elf from the Greyhawk setting, or else that the DM is porting in regional feats from other settings and/or waving race requirements.

[Darth Stabber]

My only problem with Factorum 20 is it seems to loose Umph after Lv 8 where I could put Other classes or dips for better features.

As loose as it may seem, it isn't, not even a little. 1 you keep the skill train rolling, 2 more inspiration, 3 more spell and opportunistic piety, and 4 cunning brilliance is absurdly powerful (and if you know what you are doing it can give you access to anything). If you want to be a skill monkey and have a wide variety of options available to you at any given time this is a great class to stir in. Maybe mix it in with psion, since you have no manifesters in your group, allowing you to have all the fun of full casting without "covering bases that have already been covered". Psion has some interesting options and powers are as good vancian casters with easier bookkeeping.

For more relevant info check the handbook in my Sig.

[Vaz]

Ardent 20//Factotum 8/Binder 2/Chameleon 10

[Soranar]

For general purpose, Factotum 20 has you covered on just about anything. The skillpoints and the action economy alone lets you deal with everything you might face.

As for the other side, I have a hard time finding something better than Erudite 20 to cover everything. You can cast in armor, Factotum lets you deal with everything too mundane to require a power and Erudite lets you deal with everything else .

STAT wise, it lets you concentrate on 1 stat (INT) which also happens to cover everything else.