Eschew Materials and You!

[CrazyYanmega]

Has anyone else had issues with the Eschew Materials feat? The fact that some spells have material components with no set price is difficult. I mean, dust from a disintegrated creature? A piece of onyx? I'm currently in a debate with my DM over the definition of Thunderlance's 'a small metal spear,' with the DM stating that it is a steel shortspear sized for halfings, and I stating that it's a hand-sized, decorative spear made entirely of metal. He also ruled that my Druid's Fire Seeds spell did not qualify for Eschew Materials, which sucks since that was practically the only reason I took the feat.

Does anyone else have any tales of Material woe and misfortune to share, and how did you deal with it.

[Flickerdart]

Your DM doesn't let 4 acorns cost less than 1 gp? :smallconfused:

[eggynack]

According to the game, any component with unlisted price has a negligible cost, and would thus be usable with eschew materials. It'd also be usable with a material component pouch, so the feat isn't all that important, but there ya go. Your DM's rule is of the house variety.

[olentu]

Your DM doesn't let 4 acorns cost less than 1 gp? :smallconfused:

Perhaps the world is secretly ruled by giant chipmunks.

[CrazyYanmega]

Your DM doesn't let 4 acorns cost less than 1 gp? :smallconfused:

He says it's because he doesn't like how the materials are actually a part of the final form of the spell. Also, the issue was more with the holly berries.

Another important thing to note is that this issue was bought up a little after a session where I nuked and utterly annihilated a pirate ship from above.

[Twilightwyrm]

He says it's because he doesn't like how the materials are actually a part of the final form of the spell. Also, the issue was more with the holly berries.

Another important thing to note is that this issue was bought up a little after a session where I nuked and utterly annihilated a pirate ship from above.


Because, as a Druid Capable of casting Fire Seeds, there no other way for you to nuke a ship.

[The Grue]

Yeah I think the GM is mistaking the symptom for the disease. The problem is not how material components are handled, it's that the Druid is a T1 class and he doesn't know how to handle them.

[Dr. Azkur]

It actually makes sense if you think about it for more than a single second, ladies and gentlemen. RAW or no RAW what the spell does is turn some regular fruit into magic fruit, you'd think there needs to be a fruit in the first place, right?
Eschew materials deletes the necessity of that purely flavorful (don't confuse with non-mechanical, it obviously does have its own mechanical aspects, but it's there for fluff) stuff we call Material Components (Read giant bat mucus to cast a rain of fire, or throwing sand around to make people sleep), which is what wizards use to channel their hocus pocus.
Do you happen to see the difference between one and the other? Yes they are both listed as material components because that's what they are, the physical touchable part of the spell, but you don't turn that spider eyeball into spiderwebs, it's just what you happen to need to be holding while you say abracadabrian words and move your fingers like this (http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/28700000/Jack-s-fingers-D-pirates-of-the-caribbean-28773308-500-200.gif), while the berries are what you turn into explosive projectiles.

Am I expressing myself correctly?

Either way I get what the DM is trying to do and it certainly isn't to try to nerf the druid, he just likes to apply his common sense to the game rules... and THAT is his mistake. Because D&D is very rarely self-consistent, as far as RAW-RAI goes.
Where the designers got it wrong was listing berries and acorns and ice statues (for the case of ice assassin) as the material component, while it's actually the thing you cast it on... something that you'd think needs to be there for the thing to happen (The spell turn seeds into bombs, instead of creating bombs from thin air).

Just laying my insight of the DM's actions, I reserve my almost non-existant opinion.

TL;DR
The DM isn't trying to make things more difficult for/nerf the druid. He wants the spell to make sense.

[Techwarrior]

Plane Shift tuning forks. Good luck getting any of those in this quadrant. :smallmad:

How's a poor Dark creature supposed to get back to the Prime Material his adventure is in when his douche DM decides Dismissal was funny.

UMD. The quest for a tuning fork is too damn tine consuming compared to the 1125 go for a damn scroll.

[Dr. Azkur]

Plane Shift tuning forks. Good luck getting any of those in this quadrant. :smallmad:

How's a poor Dark creature supposed to get back to the Prime Material his adventure is in when his douche DM decides Dismissal was funny.

UMD. The quest for a tuning fork is too damn tine consuming compared to the 1125 go for a damn scroll.

Nerull almighty! And you actually have to go through all that?! How do you play? If I were your -very douchy- DM I'd just tell you to roll up another PC and at some really good point in time your original one breaks a wall, you regain control over it and saves everyone (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigDamnHeroes) or something.

[Techwarrior]

Oh, if only it was that bad. Dismissal is a 4th level Cleric spell, which means that its 'appropriate' to have that as the BBEG of a campaign where I had just bought off the +1 LA. So I had to figure out how to cross planes as a third level Rogue. It only took about three private sessions, half a level of experience, and a casting of Shadow Walk. If you want the whole story I can PM it to you.

[Dr. Azkur]

If you want the whole story I can PM it to you.

I'd love that :smallbiggrin:

[Yahzi]

Am I expressing myself correctly?
Makes perfect sense for me. Eschew Materials means you don't need material components; but it doesn't mean you don't need the spell target.

[Rubik]

UMD. The quest for a tuning fork is too damn tine consuming compared to the 1125 gp for a damn scroll.I see what you did there.

Clever girl*.






*Or whatever.

[Dr. Azkur]

Oh my... subtle and very elegant pun.

[Crake]

Plane Shift tuning forks. Good luck getting any of those in this quadrant. :smallmad:

How's a poor Dark creature supposed to get back to the Prime Material his adventure is in when his douche DM decides Dismissal was funny.

UMD. The quest for a tuning fork is too damn tine consuming compared to the 1125 go for a damn scroll.

Well, to be fair the plane shift tuning forks are foci, not material components, so they'd never be covered by eschew materials anyway.

Edit: And it also serves you right for not picking up Naturalized Denizen on a character who spends the majority of his/her time on a plane where he is extraplanar.

[some guy]

Because, as a Druid Capable of casting Fire Seeds, there no other way for you to nuke a ship.

I know it's sarcasm, but I just wanted to add that even a lvl 3 druid can potentially destroy a ship with warp wood (It specifically mentions " A boat or ship springs a leak."). Sure, it takes a lot of time and in that time it could be fixed, but the druid could use that time for his/her advantage.

[Spore]

You use your innate magic to let acorns appear in your hands/claws. You are a druid who casts from the natural energies and ley lines surrounding you. He is fine with you conjuring up several hundred pounds of plant matter for the spell Entangle (vines and roots can't move, they have to grow rapidly into the direction of the enemies), but suddenly creating 4 measly acorns is too much? Something warped his suspension of disbelief.

If he stays stubborn, well, watch me:

DM: "You enter a mystical forest, the spirits talk to you: 'Kind strangers, please give peace to this sacred realms as we are being attacked by Lord Nefario and his goblinoid minions. Please help us and the Dryads of the Eversong Forest will ever be grateful.'"
Druid: "Brb, picking acorns, LOL."

[Dalebert]

You use your innate magic to let acorns appear in your hands/claws.

I'm with Dr. Azkur on this one. Sure, a druid can create matter by casting spells to do so, but that's not what the feat allows him to do. You're getting into the realm of what would at least be an orison--creating acorns. Hell, research that spell. It wouldn't be a big deal. Now you can cast a 0-lvl spell and maybe you have acorns for several castings of fire seeds.

Fire seeds doesn't create acorns. It enchants them. Would you say that someone with Eschew Materials could conjure a +1 quarter staff out of thin air by casting magic weapon since that particular weapon costs less than 1 gp? It might be RAW in cases where they stupidly listed what is clearly the target of the spell as components, but it's not unreasonable for the DM to interpret it the common sense way.

[Yomega]

TL;DR
The DM isn't trying to make things more difficult for/nerf the druid. He wants the spell to make sense.
<snip>

Im sorry to have to point this out but "I can magically make acorns into blazing fireballs of death, but only if I use real acorns"
how some people draw the line on suspension of disbelief is beyond me =)

[Urpriest]

First: all of these components are in your spell component pouch anyway. If the designers thought that a component would be difficult to acquire, they told you by putting a large price on it.

Second: the problem with spells like (arguably) Fire Seeds and Fabricate is that the people who designed them mixed up material components and targets. If you want to fix something, just give them a target line and get rid of their material component line.

[CrazyYanmega]

I do know where my DM is coming from, and I would have no issue with it... except there IS a precedent. The Phoenix, from MM 2, is capable of using fire seeds. Naturally, as a Spell-Like Ability, they get a hyper version of Eschew materials. But they can create the seeds out of mid-air, unless unbeknownst to me every Phoenix in existence carries a material bag.

Now, before you tell me that MM2 is 3.0 and doesn't count, we have already ruled OK use on MM2 for this game. The DM just threw 3 corpse gatherers at the 10/5 Druid/Assassin, 10 Wizard, 12 Gnoll Barbarian, and 10 Nomad Psion.

(Due to the druid's special Goddess-blessed enchanted armor and a smart move by the Wizard, we still won.)

[RochtheCrusher]

Fire seeds doesn't create acorns. It enchants them. Would you say that someone with eschew materials could conjure a +1 quarter staff out of thin air by casting magic weapon since that particular weapon costs less than 1 gp? It might be RAW in cases where they stupidly listed what is clearly the target of the spell as components, but it's not unreasonable for the DM to interpret it the common sense way.

Sure, I wouldn't let him create a quarterstaff that way. I'd have it be a +1 weapon, shaped like a quarterstaff, and made of air, because you're basically just hitting with the magic anyway. Or, I'd let him pick up a handy stick and let the magic reinforce it enough to be usable. There are plenty of ways to make the fluff work if the rules say it should.

Unless you're frequently subverting the rules when they are illogical against the players, you have no business taking player power away because it doesn't make sense. If they can't count on logic (and they can't, by RAW) and they can't rely upon the text of the rules, then what can they count on? Death and feat taxes?

[Dalebert]

I don't think the DM should have popped this one on you in the heat of battle to prevent you from being able to cast it. If this is the case in his game, your character should be aware of that. I'd have been glad to just ret-con that you had gathered some acorns knowing that Eschew Materials wouldn't apply to creating spell targets. I get that acorns are trivial and I'm okay with saying that you just gather them as needed during off-time.

When it would have been relevant is in some unlikely scenario when you are perhaps captured or otherwise have your possessions taken away. In such a case, Eschew Materials will let you cast a fireball without bat guano, and yes, you would also be able to cast magic weapon, magic fang, or fire seeds but there would be no target there to receive the magic so it would have no effect.


I'd have it be a +1 weapon, shaped like a quarterstaff, and made of air, because you're basically just hitting with the magic anyway.

What? There's a spell that hits them with magic and it's called spiritual weapon. If you were just hitting them with magic then the type of weapon wouldn't matter for the damage being done, e.g. like spiritual weapon, but it does matter because you're hitting them with a physical weapon that already exists and has simply been enchanted by the spell.

[Deophaun]

Out of curiosity, how does any of this (free acorns! mundane weapons out of nothing!) actually impact balance? I'm guessing "not at all." So I see no reason to not allow it.

[Dalebert]

Out of curiosity, how does any of this (free acorns! mundane weapons out of nothing!) actually impact balance? I'm guessing "not at all." So I see no reason to not allow it.

Free acorns and free mundane weapons don't upset balance. You can go out in the woods and find either. It only affects what spells are useful for any particular situation. Don't be upset that magic fang isn't useful because you don't have an animal companion on hand to cast it on. Either get an animal somehow or prepare something else. The spell doesn't create the animal. That's not the spell's intended effect. Maybe cast summon monster instead or follow it up with magic fang. Problem solved.

And if you get captured and are locked in a cage, they probably took even your mundane weapons and your pouch full of acorns. There are a couple of spells you may have prepared (magic weapon or fire seeds) that just aren't useful in your current situation so pick something else. Later on, you might be fighting hell hounds. Guess what? Burning hands is not a useful spell in THAT particular situation. That's life. Every spell is not going to be useful in every possible situation.

[eggynack]

Out of curiosity, how does any of this (free acorns! mundane weapons out of nothing!) actually impact balance? I'm guessing "not at all." So I see no reason to not allow it.
Basically. The pouch is right there, sitting pretty, granting perfect access to all of this stuff. As for magic weapon, I see no real reason to assess it, given that magic weapon lacks a material component line. The same is true of magic fang. There is no dysfunction here, as eschew components works with none of these things. We could delve into what ifs, but I don't see the point. It's a feat that does certain things, and fire seeds is very much one of them.

For the OP, I would ask the DM to let you trade out the feat for something else, given that he's not letting you use it for the perfectly rules legal thing that you gained it for. Just buy a pouch, and then buy a second pouch, and then buy seven more pouches, because they're really cheap, and you don't want losing one to be a big deal. Simple stuff. If he won't let you trade out the feat, buy a million pouches anyway, because your DM is unreliable with respect to the feat, and then laugh away the loss, because you're a druid, and druids are crazy.

[Dalebert]

I would have just argued what I already said. If, in fact, your character can't cast fire seeds without acorns (a reasonable RAI interpretation), your character would have been aware of that fact and he would have gathered some acorns earlier. It's a perfectly reasonable assumption. It was douchey of the DM to pop that one on you in the middle of a fight. That's the part that didn't make sense.

[geekintheground]

Free acorns and free mundane weapons don't upset balance. You can go out in the woods and find either. It only affects what spells are useful for any particular situation. Don't be upset that magic fang isn't useful because you don't have an animal companion on hand to cast it on. Either get an animal somehow or prepare something else. The spell doesn't create the animal. That's not the spell's intended effect. Maybe cast summon monster instead or follow it up with magic fang. Problem solved.


this has nothing to do with the matter at hand though. the animal is the TARGET, not the MATERIAL COMPONENT.


to add in my opinion on the topic: i agree that you should be able to eschew the acorns/berries. you make bombs that LOOK like those things since the materials are used up during the casting.

[Coidzor]

Out of curiosity, how does any of this (free acorns! mundane weapons out of nothing!) actually impact balance? I'm guessing "not at all." So I see no reason to not allow it.

It doesn't. The idea merely offends people's sensibilities.


I'm currently in a debate with my DM over the definition of Thunderlance's 'a small metal spear,' with the DM stating that it is a steel shortspear sized for halfings, and I stating that it's a hand-sized, decorative spear made entirely of metal.

He also ruled that my Druid's Fire Seeds spell did not qualify for Eschew Materials, which sucks since that was practically the only reason I took the feat.

He's wrong even going by the interpretation that it has to be a small sized spear. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize) A Small Spear is not only Small in terms of Size, but also in terms of the Size category of creature that can use it without penalty. That aside, the fact that it specifies metal suggests something other than a weapon because a spear made entirely out of metal isn't really a weapon and because if you were saying metal to talk about a regular spear it'd be redundant, so that to me says something along the lines of a figurine. If it's a figurine-type deal, though, the size isn't actually defined.

Sounds like you all need greater communication all around. Though I don't know how he's able to reconcile that with thinking that having to lug around a supply of halfling-sized spears around with you or pulling them out of your spell component pouch makes any amount of sense.

[Rubik]

Fire Seeds uses acorns as a material component, meaning they're destroyed upon casting the spell. According to the way spells work, Fire Seeds does create the acorn bombs out of thin air.

The DM broke the rules in a way that seems custom-designed to screw with the player. While DM fiat can be okay, it shouldn't have happened here. If the DM is going to break the rules, he needs to tell you about it, and let you fudge things a bit until the game would naturally allow you to correct the issue. (And if that couldn't happen, such as the player taking a feat that no longer works anywhere like the rules say it does, the feat should be immediately replaceable.)

[jedipotter]

Does anyone else have any tales of Material woe and misfortune to share, and how did you deal with it.

Ah, set the Wayback Machine for 19-something. All spellcasters had to keep track of all material components. And how much they had and how much was used per spell. It was a lot of book keeping, but it was all good.

See Material Components were (and are) a great way to balance spellcasters. Your character has no sulfur? Well, then no fireball's for you. Players had to watch their supplies, and pick spells with easy to find components. A caster might never take the spell Iron Body as it has a hard to find material component. The same for Contingency.

A lot of the powerful and broken spells simply could not be used, for lack of the right material components. The wizard that ran out of peas, could not cast Solid Fog. And even if they had a 'bag of dried peas', it would be marked as ''10 pinches''. So that would be ten solid fogs. The DM set a reasonable amount of such things, so players did not carry around ''a billion pinches of dried peas''.

But, as always, there was That One Guy. He wanted to be a spellcaster, but did not want to keep track of stuff. And nice DM's just hand waved it, ''oh you got everything you need''. And then at least Two of Them Guys wrote 3E. So they got rid of material components. So now every spell component pouch has bits of iron golems, eyelash of rakshasas, and dragon scales. And, oddly wizards get all powerful in the ''by the book'' type games. And people wonder why.....

[Yawgmoth]

DM uses ridiculous pedantry to try to stop PCs from doing things in the precise method he wants them to; fails to possess basic understanding of the game that most of us have had since the 3.5 PHB dropped.

Film at 11.

Edit:
It was a lot of book keeping, but it was all good. No it wasn't, put down the +5 rose-tinted glasses. All that bookkeeping was terrible and the same brand of passive-aggressive BS that the OP is dealing with. If you don't want a player to use a spell, you say so. You don't say "oh sure you can take that spell, but you never, ever, ever, get material components for it." That kind of "gaming" is why I didn't do any roleplaying for some years. It's a perfect way of scaring off any new blood from the hobby.

[Flickerdart]

The DM set a reasonable amount of such things, so players did not carry around ''a billion pinches of dried peas''.
Ten seems like a very small amount of pinches of dried peas. I mean, a pinch is an insignificant amount. It is literally so small that a recipe will not give a ml value for an ingredient that only requires a pinch. If we assume that a pinch is equivalent to 1ml (which is rounding up a lot), then you could fit enough for 1000 castings of solid fog into a small jar. 300 castings (ten times a day for a month) would take up less space in your pack than a can of soda.

[Dalebert]

this has nothing to do with the matter at hand though. the animal is the TARGET, not the MATERIAL COMPONENT.

to add in my opinion on the topic: i agree that you should be able to eschew the acorns/berries. you make bombs that LOOK like those things since the materials are used up during the casting.

I'm not arguing the RAW. The acorns are actually listed as BOTH the targets and the material components for the spell. But then if you actually read the description of the spell, it's clear that you're enchanting some acorns and altering them; not vanishing them to summun up some acorn-looking grenades.


Acorn Grenades:As many as four acorns
turn into special splash weapons

The description contradicts the listing of acorns as material components. The listing of them as targets contradicts the listing of acorns as material components. It's clearly just one more of many cases of author sloppiness(*) that allows for a loophole so you can argue that Eschew Materials works. I'm sure the author of the spell was thinking "You obviously need acorns so I will list them as material components" and was almost certainly not anticipating the feat and how the wording allows the spell to behave completely differently than intended. The DM closed the loophole and interpreted them as targets (can they be both? I don't think so. He picked one.) and that decision was reasonable. Popping it on you in the middle of a fight without letting you ret-con that you had gathered some acorns was douchey.

(*)Like listing a portable hole as both non-dimensional and extradimensional which inspired quite a long thread recently.

[Twilightwyrm]

I know it's sarcasm, but I just wanted to add that even a lvl 3 druid can potentially destroy a ship with warp wood (It specifically mentions " A boat or ship springs a leak."). Sure, it takes a lot of time and in that time it could be fixed, but the druid could use that time for his/her advantage.

Not quite nuking per se, but point taken. In the great Druid vs. Vessals arms race, a 3rd level Druid might not be able to instantly blow a ship to bits, but between Flaming Sphere spreading fire to multiple sections of the ship, an Warp Wood causing it to take on water, your basic ship is pretty much screwed.

[Captnq]

Has anyone else had issues with the Eschew Materials feat? The fact that some spells have material components with no set price is difficult. I mean, dust from a disintegrated creature? A piece of onyx? I'm currently in a debate with my DM over the definition of Thunderlance's 'a small metal spear,' with the DM stating that it is a steel shortspear sized for halfings, and I stating that it's a hand-sized, decorative spear made entirely of metal. He also ruled that my Druid's Fire Seeds spell did not qualify for Eschew Materials, which sucks since that was practically the only reason I took the feat.

Does anyone else have any tales of Material woe and misfortune to share, and how did you deal with it.

1. About Acorns: Your DM needs to write down any rules changes and submit them in writing before game starts. If he insists changing the rules on the fly,live with it, or get a new DM.

2. Nonsense. The only all metal spear that exists is a Salamander Spear. How could a SALAMANDER sper, made for SALAMANDERS. How could it be a spell componate?

Furthermore, the halfspear that he speaks of was eliminated entirely in 3.5. Longspear, Spear, and Shortspear are all that is official 3.5 spears. There is no "light" spear in 3.5, only 2handed with reach, two handed, and one handed. However, if he insists on using halfspears, I converted the 3.0 version to 3.5 in the EVD. See my sig below. Go to combat equipment, look up Weapons-Shields v4.04.doc

Furthermore, since it has no listed cost, it's clearly less the 1gp, and therefore next to worthless. In effect, what it should say is, small metal toothpick, or sliver. Or soemthing like that. Still, without a listed price, it is less then a gold. given the price of metal, it must be small indeed.

[Coidzor]

Furthermore, since it has no listed cost, it's clearly less the 1gp, and therefore next to worthless. In effect, what it should say is, small metal toothpick, or sliver. Or soemthing like that. Still, without a listed price, it is less then a gold. given the price of metal, it must be small indeed.

Less than 10 pounds of iron, say. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm#wealthOtherThanCoins) My gut instinct is that it'd be less than a whole pound of iron, or steel for that matter.

[Zweisteine]

Fire seeds cast with its material components makes tiny acorns into flaming projectiles. Without the components, it just makes little balls of fire. As the spell only deals fire damage, it makes perfect sense that it could be cast without the acorns, assuming you have had special training (i.e. a feat) to do so.

Think of it this way: the acorns provide a focus for the magic. They are a physical anchor for the magic, and you form the fire around them, because it's easier to do. With the feat, you have learned how to focus on the magic itself, allowing you to form the magic without a physical anchor.


If your DM says the component for a spell is a weapon, it isn't specifically stated in the spell that it is one, and the component has no listed cost, buy a colossal spell component pouch for 5gp, and sell the spears that come inside for a large profit. (The pouch is colossal because a pouch only components that fit inside are inside, and it costs no more to get a bigger pouch.

Alternatively, ask your DM if the rules really intended for any Wizard or Sorcerer who wanted to cast thunderlance regularly to carry hundreds of pounds of spear with them at all times.
Also, metal spears are not listed anywhere, so, as a spell component, they are free anyway.


If your DM won't listen to reason, just ask to trade in the feat (which would be fair, as you were not aware that it had been nerfed), and buy a spell component pouch.


What I want to know is how this came up in game? Did you specifically mention that you eschewed the materials of a spell? That's be odd. Did your DM, when you went to cast fire seeds, say, "do you have any acorns?" That'd just be mean. Most people I know buy a pouch (or take the feat, or neither) and just ignore cheap components.

[CrazyYanmega]

WOW, you guys are really ripping into my DM!

Okay, to be fair, my DM interprets the Fire Seeds spell as filling mundane acorns or berries with fire magic so that they explode. Also, he didn't jump me with this mid-combat. The issue was bought up about 3-4 sessions AFTER the nuke incident.

Finally, the DM is inheriting control of a campaign that is basically cheese anyway, and I do not envy his job. (You think the druid/assassin whose assassin levels advance his druidic spellcasting and has armor that lets him wildshape into a seige beetle for an hour is bad? Wait till I tell you about another member's Decepticon Thundercat Timelord Gnoll.)

[Coidzor]

WOW, you guys are really ripping into my DM!

Okay, to be fair, my DM interprets the Fire Seeds spell as filling mundane acorns or berries with fire magic so that they explode. Also, he didn't jump me with this mid-combat. The issue was bought up about 3-4 sessions AFTER the nuke incident.

Finally, the DM is inheriting control of a campaign that is basically cheese anyway, and I do not envy his job. (You think the druid/assassin whose assassin levels advance his druidic spellcasting and has armor that lets him wildshape into a seige beetle for an hour is bad? Wait till I tell you about another member's Decepticon Thundercat Timelord Gnoll.)

Really? Aside from the Thunderlance issue it seemed a fairly even divide.

Well, at least it wasn't a mid-action revelation then.

...That sort of makes the Thunderlance thing even odder in comparison, though I guess with all that stuff going on, having a huge arsenal of halfling weaponry woulnd't be much of an issue to haul around...

[Dr. Azkur]

Wait till I tell you about another member's Decepticon Thundercat Timelord Gnoll.

Would you care to? I'd appreciate it.

[Coidzor]

Would you care to? I'd appreciate it.

I must confess a certain amount of general curiosity as well.

[Deophaun]

Okay, to be fair, my DM interprets the Fire Seeds spell as filling mundane acorns or berries with fire magic so that they explode. Also, he didn't jump me with this mid-combat. The issue was bought up about 3-4 sessions AFTER the nuke incident.
I once nuked an entire harbor, ships and all, at level 4 with burning oil, enlarge person (it was a lot of oil), darkness, and a scroll of fly.

Level 4.

Your druid was at least level 11 and only took out one ship. So what's your DM's problem? :smallbiggrin:

[CrazyYanmega]

So one of the early dungeons was a mine run by gnolls. We went through, killed Gnolls, freed the prisoners, and took down the sub boss. We fought the boss, who basically enacted the Transformers Armada Starscream Death Scene, opening a portal to some pocket dimension.

We then entered the portal after a night's rest, with my druid casting some weather protection spells to defend from the heat. We fought giant skeletons, learning that DR/Bludgeoning meant that Bludeoning overcame DR, not that the DR only applied to Blugeoning.

Finally, we found him: the true Final Boss of the dungeon, a skeletal necromancer. The boss naturally walked ALL THE WAY AROUND THE OTHER PARTY MEMBERS, provoking about 5 attacks of opportunity, to grapple the druid. The druid who had a STR score of 9, and unsure of whether or not he could Wildshape while grappled. (To be fair, I DID just cast Vortex of Teeth on the guy.)

Before the druid died, the air shimmered and the Gnoll leader appeared behind the necromancer. Here, I, OOC, asked the following question: "Are you REALLY going to invoke the 'Bumblebee kills Megatron' scene from Transformers Prime?" The answer, of course, was "Yup."

So the gnoll is also an Autobot. My mistake.

One subquest later, and the group is at a tournament, where my druid was going to die, and I would be transferred DM leadership for the mission to bring him back. One of the contestants was, of course, the Gnoll, who had reincarnated and whose weapon of choice is a Shocking Great Axe, which activates when the Gnoll chants "Thunder, thunder, thunder! Thundercats, hoooo!"

He's also extra sensitive about his height, so add a little FMA Edward Elric to that as well.

EDIT: As a little extra trivia, the DM's ranger killed my druid in that tournament with a sword called the "Imaginari Ruptor" that negated all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural powers directed at the wielder, could disenchant artifacts and remove curses with a touch, and had a 3/day ranged attack that destroyed magic items and prevented hit spellcasters from being able to cast spells for 4d6 hours. This sword is one of my finer creations.

EDIT 2: Anyway, that's getting off topic. More stories/discussion/debate about Eschew Materials, please.

[Dr. Azkur]

Amazing.
./

[jaybird]

Ah, set the Wayback Machine for 19-something. All spellcasters had to keep track of all material components. And how much they had and how much was used per spell. It was a lot of book keeping, but it was all good.

If I wanted to be depressed, I'd be an accountant.

[CRtwenty]

But, as always, there was That One Guy. He wanted to be a spellcaster, but did not want to keep track of stuff. And nice DM's just hand waved it, ''oh you got everything you need''. And then at least Two of Them Guys wrote 3E. So they got rid of material components. So now every spell component pouch has bits of iron golems, eyelash of rakshasas, and dragon scales. And, oddly wizards get all powerful in the ''by the book'' type games. And people wonder why.....

i'd say it's less being "that guy" and more realizing that casters already have enough paperwork to deal with and don't need another listing of spell components on top of their spell lists.

Besides, plenty of spells still have material components or foci with gp costs higher than what a spell component pouch or the eschew materials feat would generally cover.

[Sception]

So you can cast without material components. Great. You still need a legal spell target. Fire seed lists the seeds as both a material component and the spell target. Just because you don't need material components thanks to eschew materials, doesn't mean to can ignore the spell target line or cast the spell at a target that isn't there.

I'm with the DM on this, at least per my reading of the RAW.

[supermonkeyjoe]

So you can cast without material components. Great. You still need a legal spell target. Fire seed lists the seeds as both a material component and the spell target. Just because you don't need material components thanks to eschew materials, doesn't mean to can ignore the spell target line or cast the spell at a target that isn't there.

I'm with the DM on this, at least per my reading of the RAW.

This,

I agree that eschew material removes the need tor acorns as a material component but does not remove them as a target, RAW clearly states that with no valid target, the spell fails.

This in theory means that the acorns aren't automatically consumed by the spell as material components, so if they weren't destroyed by the fire damage they could be re-used (maybe cast hardening on them, treated as wood they have around 5hp and 5 hardness increase by 5 for a CL11 casting of hardness and that's 20 points of fire damage negated by hardness)

This is however pretty pointless unless you are really attached to those acorns.

[Dalebert]

This is however pretty pointless unless you are really attached to those acorns.

My grandmother gave me those acorns and carved little hearts into them!

[ninjamaster1991]

This,

I agree that eschew material removes the need tor acorns as a material component but does not remove them as a target, RAW clearly states that with no valid target, the spell fails.

This in theory means that the acorns aren't automatically consumed by the spell as material components, so if they weren't destroyed by the fire damage they could be re-used (maybe cast hardening on them, treated as wood they have around 5hp and 5 hardness increase by 5 for a CL11 casting of hardness and that's 20 points of fire damage negated by hardness)

This is however pretty pointless unless you are really attached to those acorns.

Actually, one major advantage is that you could use Minor Creation to make the acorns that you target. Minor Creation only says that the items it makes can't be used as material components. It doesn't say anything about being the target of spells.

[jedipotter]

Edit: No it wasn't, put down the +5 rose-tinted glasses. All that bookkeeping was terrible and the same brand of passive-aggressive BS that the OP is dealing with. If you don't want a player to use a spell, you say so. You don't say "oh sure you can take that spell, but you never, ever, ever, get material components for it." That kind of "gaming" is why I didn't do any roleplaying for some years. It's a perfect way of scaring off any new blood from the hobby.

Bookkeeping is not terrible. Just look at all the bookkeeping it takes for some awesome spell combos, you don't see anyone making a fuss there. And that kind of gaming prevented lots of the ''problems'' and ''abuse'' that the modern kind of game has.


Ten seems like a very small amount of pinches of dried peas. I mean, a pinch is an insignificant amount. It is literally so small that a recipe will not give a ml value for an ingredient that only requires a pinch. If we assume that a pinch is equivalent to 1ml (which is rounding up a lot), then you could fit enough for 1000 castings of solid fog into a small jar. 300 castings (ten times a day for a month) would take up less space in your pack than a can of soda.

Sure, but how many jars can you carry? Once you get a couple dozen jars of stuff for a couple dozen spells, it adds up.



i'd say it's less being "that guy" and more realizing that casters already have enough paperwork to deal with and don't need another listing of spell components on top of their spell lists.

Besides, plenty of spells still have material components or foci with gp costs higher than what a spell component pouch or the eschew materials feat would generally cover.

Again paperwork is not bad. It is part of the price of power. And that is what you get in 3E with spellcasters, all power and no price. And after like 1st level, most gold costs are a joke. Character's just have buckets of gold to spend. But worse, lots of the exotic stuff is free! Like raskata eye lashes, apparently dozens of them are killed every day so that every single spell component pouch in the world has plenty.

[Flickerdart]

Sure, but how many jars can you carry? Once you get a couple dozen jars of stuff for a couple dozen spells, it adds up.
You don't need even a single jar for most spells, because you will never cast anything ten times per day, and will most likely be able to resupply more than once a month. All the spells that make wizards powerful are ones you only need to do every once in a while (contingency, planar binding, genesis, etc) or at most once every one or two days (mind blank, greater magic weapon, any of the other hour/level buffs). Throw all the stuff into a bag of holding, and now you're not actually prevented from casting anything, but have to do meaningless paperwork.

[Nettlekid]

I know I'm coming into this discussion rather late, but I skimmed the thread and I don't think this has already been said. If it has, sorry for repeating!
I forget from where I read it, either from a forum poster here or I think on one of the WotC online articles, but the long and short of it is that originally Material Components were a joke. Not euphemistically, like we might call a Monk/Truenamer a joke, but literally, actually, designed for a snort and eyeroll type joke. Just look at some of them! Like See Invisibility: A pinch of talc and a sprinkling of silver. To "see invisibility" you're tossing dust into the air, like throwing a bag of flour! Or Detect Thoughts: A copper piece. Penny for your thoughts? The arcane focus for Scrying involves Nitric Acid, copper, and zinc, along with the focus of a mirror. You're making a little TV/projector! Even the aforementioned Solid Fog: A pinch of dried peas. You're making fog that's "thick as pea soup," as the saying goes. Confusion: Three nut shells. You're doing Find the Lady/Three Card Monty for your foe, and confusing them.

There are many more like these. Now granted, some really do have that mystical feel, like the guano for Fireball or bull hair for Bull's Strength, but many of them are just silly, and MEANT to be silly. For a DM to get so hung up over something that's meant to be just silly...Just point that out to them next time.

[Pickford]

Makes perfect sense for me. Eschew Materials means you don't need material components; but it doesn't mean you don't need the spell target.


This. Eschew Materials removes the requirement of a Material Component to cast Fire Seeds, but it doesn't remove the requirement to have a valid target (no valid target on cast completion = spell fizzle).

And the target for Fire Seeds is:


Targets: Up to four touched acorns or up to eight touched holly berries

The problem is when we run into spells where the authors didn't write them to take into account Eschew Materials

Most Spells that Eschew Materials should work for just fine:

PHB:

Acid Fog (S/W, Domain)
Animal Messenger (B, D, R)
Antimagic Field (C, S/W, Domain)
Antipathy (D, S/W)
Arcane Eye (S/W)
Atonement (C,D)
Bigby's Crushing Hand (S/W, Domain)
Bull's Strength (C, D, P, S/W, Domain) (also mass version)
Cat's Grace (B, D, R, S/W) (also mass version)
Color Spray (S/W)
Command Undead (S/W)
Comprehend Languages (B, C, S/W)
Cone of Cold (S/W, Domain)
Confusion (B, S/W, Domain)
Contingency (S/W)
Control Undead (S/W)
Control Water (C, D, S/W, Domain)
Crushing Despair (B, S/W)
Darkness (B, C, S/W)
Daze (B, S/w)
Daze Monster (B, S/W)
Deep Slumber (B, S/W)
Deeper Darkness (C)
Delayed Blast Fireball (S/W)
Demand (S/W)
Detect Scrying (B, S/W)
Detect Undead (C, P, S/W)
Disintegrate (S/W, Domain)
Displacement (B, S/W)
Eagle's Splendor (B, C, P, S/W) (also mass version)
Enlarge Person (S/W, Domain) (also mass version)
Evard's Black Tentacles (S/W)
False Life (S/W)
Fear (B, S/W)
Feeblemind (S/W)
Fire Shield (S/W, Domain)
Fireball (S/W)
Flame Arrow (S/W)
Flaming Sphere (D, S/W)
Flesh to Stone (S/W)
Foresight (D, S/W, Domain)
Fox's Cunning (B, S/W) (also mass version)
Freedom of Movement (B, C, D, R, Domain)
Gaseous Form (B, S/W, Domain)
Gentle Repose (C, S/W)
Ghost Sound (B, S/W)
Ghoul Touch (S/W)
Glitterdust (B, S/W)
Globe of Invulnerability (S/W) (also lesser version)
Grease (B, S/W)
Guards and Wards (S/W)
Hallucinatory Terrain (B, S/W)
Halt Undead (S/W)
Haste (B, S/W)
Hold Monster (B, S/W, Domain) (also mass version (s/w))
Horrid Wilting (S/W, Domain)
Hypnotic Pattern (B, S/W)
Ice Storm (D, S/W, Domain)
Invisibility (B, S/W, Domain) (also mass version (s/w))
Invisibility Sphere (B, S/W)
Iron Body (S/W, Domain)
Ironwood (D)
Jump (D, R, S/W)
Leomund's Secure Shelter (B, S/W)
Leomund's Tiny Hut (B, S/W)
Light (B, C, D, S/W)
Lightning Bolt (S/W)
Locate Creature (B, S/W)
Longstrider (D, R, Domain)
Magic Circle Against Evil (C, P, S/W, Domain) (also, Good (C, S/W, Domain); Law (C, S/W, Domain); Chaos (C, P, S/W, Domain))
Magic Weapon, Greater (C, P, S/W)
Major Creation (S/W) (also Minor Creation (S/W))
Melf's Acid Arrow (S/W)
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound (S/W)
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum (S/W)
Mount (S/W)
Move Earth (D, S/w)
Neutralize Poison (B, C, D, P, R)
Obscure Object (B, C, S/W)
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (S/W)
Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere (S/W)
Owl's Wisdom (C, D, P, R, S/W) (also mass version)
Passwall (S/W)
Persistent Image (B, S/W)
Polymorph (S/W)
Polymorph Any Object (S/W, Domain)
Protection from Evil (C, P, S/W, Domain) (also Chaos (C, P, S/W, Domain); Good (C, S/W, Domain); Law (C, S/W, Domain))
Prying Eyes (S/W) (also Greater version)
Rainbow Pattern (B, S/W)
Rary's Telepathic Bond (S/W)
Ray of Exhaustion (S/W)
Reduce Person (S/W) (also mass version)
Resistance (B, C, D, P, S/W)
Reverse Gravity (D, S/W)
Rope Trick (S/W)
Scare (B, S/W)
Scintillating Pattern (S/W)
Scrying (B, C, D, S/W)
Secret Page (B, S/W)
Sending (C, S/W)
Sequester (S/W)
Shatter (B, S/W, Domain)
Shield of Faith (C)
Sleep (B, S/w)
Sleet Storm (D, S/W)
Slow (B, S/W)
Solid Fog (S/W)
Spell Turning (S/W, Domain)
Spider Climb (D, S/W)
Statue (S/W)
Stinking Cloud (S/W)
Stone Shape (C, D, S/W, Domain)
Stone to Flesh (S/W)
Suggestion (B, S/W) (also mass version)
Summon Swarm (B, D, S/W)
Sunburst (D, S/W, Domain)
Tasha's Hideous Laughter (B, S/W)
Tenser's Floating Disk (S/W)
Tongues (B, C, S/W)
Touch of Fatigue (S/W)
Transmute Mud to Rock (D, S/W)
Transmute Rock to Mud (D, S/W)
Unseen Servant (B, S/W)
Wall of Fire (D, S/W, Domain)
Wall of Stone (C, D, S/W, Domain)
Water Breathing (C, D, S/W, Domain)
Web (S/W)
Wind Wall (C, D, R, S/W, Domain)


These spells, however, have issues:
Commune (C) - Sort of...requires holy water (no price listed under spell, but 25gp in Equipment section) and incense (which apparently comes in valuable, 25 gp, and this unlisted versions)
Consecrate (C) - Also requires holy water, without listing the price, even though it has one under Equipment.
Create Undead (S/W) - Among other things, requires a dead body (no price listed), however spell also targets "One corpse".
Darkvision (R, S/W) - requires a pinch of dried carrot or an agate. Agates are listed as treasure worth 4-16gp, so it's unclear why there's no value listed.
Fire Seeds (D, Domain) - Component has no value, but spell target is the component.
Pyrotechnics (B, S/W) - Same issue as Fire Seeds
Simulacrum (S/W) - spell requires the spell to be cast over the material component.
Tenser's Transformation (S/W) - Material Component has no price listed under the spell, however it is "A potion of bull's strength", which has a price in the DMG.
Wall of Force (S/W) - Has no listed price, however the minimum value of a gem listed under treasure is 4gp.
Wall of Ice (S/W) - requires quartz with no listed price, however the value of quartz under gems is 4-16gp.


Without the components, it just makes little balls of fire.

Spells require valid targets. In this case, absent acorns or holly berries, there are no valid targets. Not requiring components is immaterial.

CrazyYanmega: If you specifically were taking the feat because of Fire Seeds, then I suggest you chat with your DM about exchanging the feat for something else and retroactively paying for the spell component pouch.

[jedipotter]

You don't need even a single jar for most spells, because you will never cast anything ten times per day, and will most likely be able to resupply more than once a month. All the spells that make wizards powerful are ones you only need to do every once in a while (contingency, planar binding, genesis, etc) or at most once every one or two days (mind blank, greater magic weapon, any of the other hour/level buffs). Throw all the stuff into a bag of holding, and now you're not actually prevented from casting anything, but have to do meaningless paperwork.

Having played with material components for years, I can say it is not that easy. First off, if your not playing with the 3X gentleman idea of ''not targeting the character's stuff'', then that bag of holding spell components becomes a nice target.

Note lots of components are bigger then a 'pinch' too. A 'piece' of a tentacle is bigger then a pinch. Or a 'small' block of granite. And not everything is available everywhere. Giant octopus tentacles are found mostly by water, so go too far inland and no Edvard's tentacles for you.

[Flickerdart]

Having played with material components for years, I can say it is not that easy. First off, if your not playing with the 3X gentleman idea of ''not targeting the character's stuff'', then that bag of holding spell components becomes a nice target.
Yes, please, waste your actions attacking my bags. Try and find which of these indistinguishable objects is the real one, and which ones are decoys. In the meantime, I am a wizard, and now you are dead without having ever actually put mine or my party's lives in danger.


Note lots of components are bigger then a 'pinch' too. A 'piece' of a tentacle is bigger then a pinch. Or a 'small' block of granite. And not everything is available everywhere. Giant octopus tentacles are found mostly by water, so go too far inland and no Edvard's tentacles for you.

How convenient that teleport has no material component. Also, "a piece" does not have a defined size. A molecule from the tentacle is still technically a piece.

[Chronos]

Quoth Nettlekid:

The arcane focus for Scrying involves Nitric Acid, copper, and zinc, along with the focus of a mirror. You're making a little TV/projector!
No, you're not making anything of the sort. What you're making is noxious fumes that, when inhaled, cause you to have a mystic dream vision. As any chemistry student knows, nitric acid acts upon copper (http://www.chem.ucla.edu/harding/Rensenquote.html).

[Nettlekid]

No, you're not making anything of the sort. What you're making is noxious fumes that, when inhaled, cause you to have a mystic dream vision. As any chemistry student knows, nitric acid acts upon copper (http://www.chem.ucla.edu/harding/Rensenquote.html).

Whoops, misremembered. I think, quite appropriately, my wires were crossed with the Sending spell which uses copper wire to make a rudimentary telegraph.

[CrazyYanmega]

CrazyYanmega: If you specifically were taking the feat because of Fire Seeds, then I suggest you chat with your DM about exchanging the feat for something else and retroactively paying for the spell component pouch.

Well, I still got stuff like Ice Knife, Ice Lance, Fire Shuriken, and Cocoon, so it's okay.

Also, not only do I not have the money for a Spell Component bag, but the bag would be empty, since the group ruled that the idea that one little bag has the materials for every possible arcane or divine spell is impractial.

He is letting me use my Survival skill to scrounge up holly berries out of season, though, and I can still use the bags. (2 Castings worth of berries in a bag=16d8+256 fire damage, half on reflex.)

[eggynack]

Also, not only do I not have the money for a Spell Component bag, but the bag would be empty, since the group ruled that the idea that one little bag has the materials for every possible arcane or divine spell is impractial.
Unless you're pretty much destitute, you almost certainly do have the money for a pouch. If you're going by the actual rules, then the pouch costs 5 GP, and if you're going by the group's houserules, then it would probably cost even less. Spell components cost a negligible amount, which means that you should be reasonably capable of buying them anywhere, and do so for loose change. Your group should just let you use the pouch though, as it's mostly just a tool for making things practical. Writing down massive amounts of material components is a lot of effort out of game, and it causes almost no change in game. There not even anything to target, as you're probably going to be wild shape'd most of the time. It's pointless complication.

[CombatOwl]

Has anyone else had issues with the Eschew Materials feat? The fact that some spells have material components with no set price is difficult. I mean, dust from a disintegrated creature? A piece of onyx? I'm currently in a debate with my DM over the definition of Thunderlance's 'a small metal spear,' with the DM stating that it is a steel shortspear sized for halfings, and I stating that it's a hand-sized, decorative spear made entirely of metal. He also ruled that my Druid's Fire Seeds spell did not qualify for Eschew Materials, which sucks since that was practically the only reason I took the feat.

Does anyone else have any tales of Material woe and misfortune to share, and how did you deal with it.

Eh? It's basically just a feat to get rid of the spell component pouch for paranoid non-sorcerers. The whole material cost thing is pretty stupid anyway--by the rules if it's a material component for some spell or another and has no price it's found in a spell component pouch. Giant stone heads? Check. Dusts from obscure monsters? Check. Herbs from the furthest reaches of the world? Check, in infinite quantities no less.

[Coidzor]

Well, I still got stuff like Ice Knife, Ice Lance, Fire Shuriken, and Cocoon, so it's okay.

Also, not only do I not have the money for a Spell Component bag, but the bag would be empty, since the group ruled that the idea that one little bag has the materials for every possible arcane or divine spell is impractial.

He is letting me use my Survival skill to scrounge up holly berries out of season, though, and I can still use the bags. (2 Castings worth of berries in a bag=16d8+256 fire damage, half on reflex.)

I would suggest rethinking the entire game, considering everything else you've told us about it combined with this revelation.

[CrazyYanmega]

We are planning on that. We're gonna restart from scratch, now that we've learned the rules through hard experience. That's the session that I was asking about the Thri-kreen Psychic Warrior and Mermaid Fighter were about.