halfElf Vs Human (& other races)

[Killer Angel]

(Pathfinder)

Humans are considered a top race, in term of CharOp, and with good reasons. But I usually see that half Elves, are ranked slightly below humans. I wonder why.

Both races get a +2 bonus to one ability score they choose, so it’s a tie.

Humans gain one extra feat, which is a big seller, but Half-Elves gain Skill Focus as bonus feat. Granted, it’s not as good as humans’, but for any class with UMD as class skill, Skill Focus is golden, and anyway, any other class can make nice use of that feat. So, human is better, but only by a small margin.

Humans are Skilled. One additional skill rank is nice.
But Half-Elves get some minor magical immunities and bonuses to ST, a racial bonus to perception (which is probably the most rolled skill in the game), low light vision (nice) and multitalented (good if you’re multiclassing). I would say that Half-Elves are slightly better.

Regarding the alternate racial traits, the options offered to Half-Elves, are more numerous and better than the ones for humans (at least, in the APG). Half-Elves should win on this, but it’s debatable. (edit: as correctly pointed by Greenish, Humans win on this)

Then, we have the favored class options. Humans get their own, but half-Elves can choose between the options offered by their race, OR they can pick humans’ options. On this, Half-Elves are better, hands down.

Am I missing something, or half-elves are better (or at the same level) than humans?
What are other races that deserve, in your opinion, a better consideration?

[bekeleven]

I've never played PF, but Paragon Surge is probably the primary reason.

[Killer Angel]

Leaving aside that also humans (if you pay the price) can cast Paragon Surge, I'm not making a point about the possibility to cast a single particular spell, but it's a more general reasoning.

[Spore]

If you use Half-Elves correctly, they're more powerful than Humans. For simple and straight single class builds, I still prefer Humans. However I would say that SF on Perception plus Racial is even better than SF on UMD, because it's rolled more often and isn't 95% success chance on 20+.

Take examples: For a straight fighter, additional skill ranks are golden. The extra feat is debatable, but it gives you an early edge (since you probably won't find a use for SF). If you want a fighter, then not for good skill rolls. A human fighter can more easily broaden his skill array while a HE fighter can focus on single skills.

For a Oracle/Paladin, a very popular build in this forum, HE is vastly superior. Both classes advance the favored class, Oracle gets Paragon Surge (even if Expanded Arcana is banned, it's still awesome), you have a believable reason to get the Fey Foundling feat at first level and you're a valid target for Elven gear (and be honest, there is so much stuff out there only available for Elves, it's not even funny).

[Greenish]

Humans gain one extra feat, which is a big seller, but Half-Elves gain Skill Focus as bonus feat. Granted, it’s not as good as humans’, but for any class with UMD as class skill, Skill Focus is golden, and anyway, any other class can make nice use of that feat. So, human is better, but only by a small margin.I think you're underestimating the freedom in selecting the bonus feat. Also, Focused Study.


Humans are Skilled. One additional skill rank is nice.
But Half-Elves get some minor magical immunities and bonuses to ST, a racial bonus to perception (which is probably the most rolled skill in the game), low light vision (nice) and multitalented (good if you’re multiclassing). I would say that Half-Elves are slightly better.Eh, depends on how much you need skill points, and whether you'll be multiclassing.


Regarding the alternate racial traits, the options offered to Half-Elves, are more numerous and better than the ones for humans (at least, in the APG). Half-Elves should win on this, but it’s debatable.Half-elves have 9 alternate racial traits, humans have 15. I'm not sure I'd call the HE options straight up better, either.


PF half-elves are pretty good, but whether they're better than humans depends on what you're trying to do.

[Killer Angel]

I think you're underestimating the freedom in selecting the bonus feat.


I'm not. But i wanted to point out that Skill Focus is not bad at all, to be a free feat. You can make good use of it with almost any character, so it's not wasted. It's that kind of thing that you usually don't take, but when you can have it, it's very welcome.


Half-elves have 9 alternate racial traits, humans have 15. I'm not sure I'd call the HE options straight up better, either.


I was not aware of all the alt. rac. traits available in the srd (I should have checked it, it's my fault), hence my reference to the APG only (where half-elves wins 6 to 4). Given that humans got more, I concede the point.

[Snowbluff]

Humans can get skill focus 3 times. Half Elves are bad even in a game where they are supposed to be good. There are a few exceptions, like eidolon focused summoners. I couldn't care less about the other things while building a character.

[Killer Angel]

Half Elves are bad even in a game where they are supposed to be good.

Apparently, Sporeegg and Greenish (and, of course, me) disagree with you. Can you elaborate your opinion with facts?

HE can choose the ability to which assign the +2, and have a vast array of favored class options. This alone is far from "bad".

[Snowbluff]

Apparently, Sporeegg and Greenish (and, of course, me) disagree with you. Can you elaborate your opinion with facts?

I did. Quote the whole post and maybe you'll see that. Humans have a trait that gives skill focus 3 time over their career. In builds that that require skill focus, which is the only reason why you would care you have it, humans get more skill focus. 1 skill focus is eh, 2 is pretty cool, but 3 makes up for the lack of racial skill bonuses. Not that I would ever select a race for skill bonuses in PF. Skill Focus is a prereq for a few things, like Eldritch Heritage, so

The extra skill point level means you are trained in an entire skill in PF. Don't have the points for perception after prereqs, play a human. Want to tank int, play a human! Need UMD? Oh right, class skills aren't a thing anymore... play a human. Add this skill point to the ability to have more Skill Focus, and humans are strictly better for skills.

The real benefit of playing either race when building a character is the bonus feats, racial restrictions, and options for Favored Class bonuses. Everything else is ultimately extraneous. Playing a Summoner? Half Elf for the Evolution Points. Paladin? I'll go Tielfing with a Cha heritage for Ora/Tankidin, or Halfing for mounted combat. Sorcerer? Human for the feat and the skill points, and the extra spells doesn't hurt. Pretty much everything else? Bonus feat.

[Grayson01]

I did. Quote the whole post and maybe you'll see that. Humans have a trait that gives skill focus 3 time over their career. In builds that that require skill focus, which is the only reason why you would care you have it, humans get more skill focus. 1 skill focus is eh, 2 is pretty cool, but 3 makes up for the lack of racial skill bonuses. Not that I would ever select a race for skill bonuses in PF. Skill Focus is a prereq for a few things, like Eldritch Heritage, so

The extra skill point level means you are trained in an entire skill in PF. Don't have the points for perception after prereqs, play a human. Want to tank int, play a human! Need UMD? Oh right, class skills aren't a thing anymore... play a human. Add this skill point to the ability to have more Skill Focus, and humans are strictly better for skills.

The real benefit of playing either race when building a character is the bonus feats, racial restrictions, and options for Favored Class bonuses. Everything else is ultimately extraneous. Playing a Summoner? Half Elf for the Evolution Points. Paladin? I'll go Tielfing with a Cha heritage for Ora/Tankidin, or Halfing for mounted combat. Sorcerer? Human for the feat and the skill points, and the extra spells doesn't hurt. Pretty much everything else? Bonus feat.

He probably on;y qouted the one part of your post cause it was teh part he was asking facts about. Like how you can say HEs are always bad? Your Post said nothing about why they are bad just a reasoning for Humans being better.

[Killer Angel]

I did. Quote the whole post and maybe you'll see that. Humans have a trait that gives skill focus 3 time over their career. In builds that that require skill focus, which is the only reason why you would care you have it, humans get more skill focus. 1 skill focus is eh, 2 is pretty cool, but 3 makes up for the lack of racial skill bonuses. Not that I would ever select a race for skill bonuses in PF. Skill Focus is a prereq for a few things, like Eldritch Heritage, so

The extra skill point level means you are trained in an entire skill in PF. Don't have the points for perception after prereqs, play a human. Want to tank int, play a human! Need UMD? Oh right, class skills aren't a thing anymore... play a human. Add this skill point to the ability to have more Skill Focus, and humans are strictly better for skills.

The real benefit of playing either race when building a character is the bonus feats, racial restrictions, and options for Favored Class bonuses. Everything else is ultimately extraneous. Playing a Summoner? Half Elf for the Evolution Points. Paladin? I'll go Tielfing with a Cha heritage for Ora/Tankidin, or Halfing for mounted combat. Sorcerer? Human for the feat and the skill points, and the extra spells doesn't hurt. Pretty much everything else? Bonus feat.

Ah, but in your first post, yo were saying that humans are good, and HE are bad. Now, you're elaborating why humans are better, but I was asking why HE are bad.

Focused Study replaces the bonus feat trait. This means that, at first level, Humans and HE are perfectly equals... humans gain the edge only later, with this.
(edit: I would say that focused study, from lev. 1 to 7, actually worsens humans, 'cause you're giving away the advantage you have over half-elves)

And why a human sorcerer should be better than a HE sorc? The HE sorc get the extra spell for the human favored class, and skill focus: UMD, it's a thing that also the human sorcerer could want, especially at low levels.

I know that humans are exceptionally good, but i think HE are similar. to use one or the other, depends on your build, but the differences are not so great.
And if your point is "Favored Class bonuses", HE are better.

[Hytheter]

Half-Elf does have an option (Ancestral Arms) to trade Skill Focus for Weapon Proficiency with any one Martial or Exotic Weapon, so if you were going to take EWP anyway Half-Elf is almost certainly better, since the Humans only edge is a Skill Point while HE gets multitalented and some misc Elfy stuff.
But for most other things Human is better. The bonus feat is just too good. Even if you want Skill Focus you might as well go Human and get it thrice instead of just once with Focused Study.
The other exception is of course Spontaneous Casters with Paragon surge. Humans can get it, but only by wasting the Feat Slot that makes them worth using in the first place. So Half Elf Sorcerers and Oracles? Sure. But for everything else there's Mastercard Human is likely superior.

[SowZ]

Half-Elf does have an option (Ancestral Arms) to trade Skill Focus for Weapon Proficiency with any one Martial or Exotic Weapon, so if you were going to take EWP anyway Half-Elf is almost certainly better, since the Humans only edge is a Skill Point while HE gets multitalented and some misc Elfy stuff.
But for most other things Human is better. The bonus feat is just too good. Even if you want Skill Focus you might as well go Human and get it thrice instead of just once with Focused Study.
The other exception is of course Spontaneous Casters with Paragon surge. Humans can get it, but only by wasting the Feat Slot that makes them worth using in the first place. So Half Elf Sorcerers and Oracles? Sure. But for everything else there's Mastercard Human is likely superior.

I'd still rather have lots of skill points over a few abilities, most of which I could get immunity to without too much expense.

[Stux]

And if your point is "Favored Class bonuses", HE are better.

I think his point in regard to Sorcerers was not that Humans have an advantage with regards to favored class bonuses (which since the FAQ was updated they don't), but rather that given that Humans have access to the best favored class bonus anyway then the difference here is decided by the fact that for a Sorcerer a free feat is generally much more desirable than skill focus.

[Snowbluff]

Ah, but in your first post, yo were saying that humans are good, and HE are bad. Now, you're elaborating why humans are better, but I was asking why HE are bad. It's simple. Anything is bad because there is a better option, unless it is broken.


Focused Study replaces the bonus feat trait. This means that, at first level, Humans and HE are perfectly equals... humans gain the edge only later, with this.
(edit: I would say that focused study, from lev. 1 to 7, actually worsens humans, 'cause you're giving away the advantage you have over half-elves)
I would only call it weaker if you didn't have a use for the feat. Personally, I wouldn't ever take Skill Focus. Feats for numeric bonuses rub me the wrong way. However, if your build calls for something like Eldritch Heritage or something similar, Human has the advantage in the long game. If you don't need skill focus, then don't play a half-elf.


And why a human sorcerer should be better than a HE sorc? The HE sorc get the extra spell for the human favored class, and skill focus: UMD, it's a thing that also the human sorcerer could want, especially at low levels.
1 feat is the difference between having Escape Route (which lets you move without AoO) and not having it. The same is true for Toppling Spell (easily over powered at most levels). Sorcerers have the ability to activates Sorcerer and Wizard wands without a UMD check, so the Skill Focus: UMD is entirely useless.


I know that humans are exceptionally good, but i think HE are similar. to use one or the other, depends on your build, but the differences are not so great.
And if your point is "Favored Class bonuses", HE are better.
HE is only better in the cases the HE FCB is better. If you have the better Human option, the human bonus feat is still too good.

[Killer Angel]

It's simple. Anything is bad because there is a better option, unless it is broken.

:smallconfused:
right, I can get it. But only because you have wizards, this doesn't means that the other classes are "bad" in the same way.
That said, I'm starting to believe that HE can be better than humans, but only with specific builds.



1 feat is the difference between having Escape Route (which lets you move without AoO) and not having it.

Escape route is a teamwork feat, and is pretty situational.




But for most other things Human is better. The bonus feat is just too good. Even if you want Skill Focus you might as well go Human and get it thrice instead of just once with Focused Study.


The more I think on FS, the more i believe is not worth it.
At first level, "any feat you want" is superior to Skill focus, so, at first level, if you take focused study, you give away the advantage of humans, and half elf is better, thanks to the other minor goodies (low light vision, and so on).
At 8th lev., human with focused study, got 2 Skill Focus, while the half elf got 1 skill focus and the alternate racial traits, so they're on par.
The human with focused study is better only from 16th level, but it's too little and too late.

In the end, Focused Study IMO is not an option, if you want to stay ahead half elves.

[Snowbluff]

:smallconfused:
right, I can get it. But only because you have wizards, this doesn't means that the other classes are "bad" in the same way.
That said, I'm starting to believe that HE can be better than humans, but only with specific builds. Yes and no. Mostly no. Most builds will favor human, since they can finish what you are building, as in the feats and skills, sooner. People will only choose Half Elf if the FCB is sufficiently powerful, which isn't very common and not true at all levels.



Escape route is a teamwork feat, and is pretty situational.
Reread it and tell me the Teamwork descriptor matters. :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Reread it and tell me the Teamwork descriptor matters. :smalltongue:I don't know what you're driving at. Escape Route (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/escape-route-combat-teamwork) has the same restrictions as other Teamwork feats, that is, you don't gain any benefit unless someone else happens to have the same feat (or you're an inquisitor or something).

[Edit]: Oh. Oh! I see. You're always your own ally in PF. Devious. :smalltongue:

[Killer Angel]

[Edit]: Oh. Oh! I see. You're always your own ally in PF. Devious. :smalltongue:

My DM would hit me with the manual, probably. :smallbiggrin: