[PF] +4 to every second attack with Opening Volley

[Zuur]

Hi All,

My D&D's really rusty - I've been reading these forums for a few ideas for a character to play in an upcoming game, but have an idea for a build that I haven't been able to find any discussion on... (probably because it's not feasible somehow)... Please offer any thoughts (positive or negative) on the following:

Opening Volley (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/opening-volley-combat) gives you a +4 bonus to hit on your next melee attack after dealing damage with a ranged attack. It seems like you could use a one-handed reach weapon in your primary hand (is Whip the only one?), and a ranged weapon you could fire multiple times in your off-hand (maybe a Pepperbox Firearm? maybe Shurikens?), alternate attacks between the two at close range and get +4 to every melee attack...(?)

Now, a whip doesn't exactly do much damage, but if you have a reasonable strength and throw in power attack it could be reasonable - are there any better ideas. The whip could also be used for tripping your opponent, which is counter-productive if you're then going to hit him with a ranged attack straight after (they get a bonus to AC from ranged attacks if prone, right?), but if you're using a firearm and making touch attacks, chances are that hitting with your firearm isn't too much of an issue.

Reloading... that's maybe a bit more of an issue. Rapid Reload makes it a move action to reload a one-handed firearm, and then using alchemical rounds reduces it to a swift action I think, meaning that you're still limited to reloading one barrel per round unless it can somehow be reduced further to a free action. I'm not sure how you would get around the issue of requiring a free hand to reload as well - any thought there? .

The order of attacks obviously matters; the Core Rulebook says [I]"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two
weapons, you can strike with either weapon first." - does this mean that if your attacks are say +8/+3 with each hand then you could opt to go +8 with your ranged weapon, +8 with your melee weapon, +3 with your ranged weapon, +3 with your melee weapon...?

Any thoughts on feats/classes/spells/races/abilities that would work well with this? Any obvious deal-breakers that would make it not work straight out? Any comments in general are most appreciated.

[Re'ozul]

The interpretation is correct from what I can see, but:

Dual wielding. If you attack with the ranged and melee weapon in the same turn you count as two weapon fighting. (so penalties to hit anyway)

Firearms: The feat says "ranged attack" not "ranged touch attack". If you have a nice DM it may still work, but by the letter it won't.

If you fight with two wepaons you only get one extra attack. So disregarding TWF penalties you could do +8 ranged/+8 melee (+4 if you hit with the first)/+3 ranged (you only get another +3 melee (+4 if your second ranged had hit) if you have Improved TWF)

[Spore]

Firearms: The feat says "ranged attack" not "ranged touch attack". If you have a nice DM it may still work, but by the letter it won't.

I am one to say, that it's intended for firearms. Several reasons:

1) It comes in the same book that introduces firearms.

2) The feat seems to be designed for dual wielding one-handed guns and melee weapons. This may or may not reflect the need to display a good reason ruleswise to introduce Warhammer Inquisitors that often combine pistols and swords.

3) Ranged attack and ranged attack need not to mean the same thing. You could either mean:

a) Attack from ranged weapon targetting AC or

b) Attack from ranged weapon.

Assuming the simpler/shorter definition, I'd allow it. I will always allow feat usage with the broader application (as long as it's not reaching Paragon Surge levels of silly cheese). After all you want diverse characters. For ranged weapon users it's terrible enough that you cannot use Crossbows or slings over bows with a straight face on a ranged weapons specialist.

[TuggyNE]

Firearms: The feat says "ranged attack" not "ranged touch attack". If you have a nice DM it may still work, but by the letter it won't.

Um. No. All ranged touch attacks are also ranged attacks by any and every definition I am aware of*. There is no kind of RAW quibble to be made here, and the rules are not that stupid.

*They are attacks (made at a range) for the purposes of spells like invisibility, and they are also ranged attacks for the purposes of feats like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot.

[Re'ozul]

Um. No. All ranged touch attacks are also ranged attacks by any and every definition I am aware of*. There is no kind of RAW quibble to be made here, and the rules are not that stupid.

*They are attacks (made at a range) for the purposes of spells like invisibility, and they are also ranged attacks for the purposes of feats like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot.

The problem I have usually with that interpretation is that it would automatically extend to ranged touch spells.

[grarrrg]

It seems like you could use a one-handed reach weapon in your primary hand (is Whip the only one?)(?)

There are some feats that let you use Ranged Weapons in threatened areas without provoking AoO's. Point-Blank Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/point-blank-master-combat) is the poster child.


Now, a whip doesn't exactly do much damage, but if you have a reasonable strength and throw in power attack it could be reasonable - are there any better ideas.

Given that you want to use a Ranged Weapon as well, I'd say a DEX based Weapon Finesse + Agile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile) is what you want here.


and a ranged weapon you could fire multiple times in your off-hand (maybe a Pepperbox Firearm? maybe Shurikens?),...Reloading... that's maybe a bit more of an issue.

Reloading will be a problem.
3 ways around:
Use an 'advanced' Firearm (least likely to be allowed).
Use a Throwing weapon.
Grow an extra arm (personal favorite).


Dual wielding. If you attack with the ranged and melee weapon in the same turn you count as two weapon fighting. (so penalties to hit anyway)

Nope.
You can attack with multiple weapons freely, Two-Weapon Fighting only comes into play if you want to go beyond your normal Iteratives.
FAQ Linky (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9onf)
"Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1 "

You may still want the first Two Weapon Fighting feat just for sake of number of attacks to get the most out of Opening Volley.

[Marnath]

The problem I have usually with that interpretation is that it would automatically extend to ranged touch spells.

Precise shot and all of those feats are already supposed to apply to ranged touch attack spells. Weapon Focus(ray) is a legitimate choice. I think that was said somewhere in the warlock crunch?


*edit: And for that matter, ranged touch spells are capable of making critical hits, with 20x2 I believe.

[Zuur]

Thanks for the feedback guys - I'm glad the initial response wasn't just "don't be silly" :smallsmile:


Dual wielding. If you attack with the ranged and melee weapon in the same turn you count as two weapon fighting. (so penalties to hit anyway)

Yep, I completely neglected to mention this, but I was planning on TWF, ITWF, etc. (which means that I take at least -2 to hit on all attacks in order to receive +4 to hit on half of them,.... hmmm... is that just silly right there?)


Firearms: The feat says "ranged attack" not "ranged touch attack". If you have a nice DM it may still work, but by the letter it won't.

I hadn't thought of this - it looks like consensis is that this isn't an issue, but something I'll check with the DM all the same.


There are some feats that let you use Ranged Weapons in threatened areas without provoking AoO's. Point-Blank Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/point-blank-master-combat) is the poster child.

You're suggesting using a more powerful melee weapon than a whip and just using the ranged weapon in melee? - that makes a hell of a lot of sense. Okay, that raises this question: I was initially looking for a reason for whip and firearm to be a sane combination, just because I thought it was a really nice character concept but didn't seem practical rules-wise... Can anyone think of any synergies or advantages of doing this with a whip given that Point-Blank Master exists and it could possibly be done better with that feat?

Even so, taking Point-Blank Master and using a sword in one hand and a firearm in the other with +4 on all the sword attacks (assuming firearm attacks hit) seems like it's got the beginnings of a good build... Any more thoughts on progressing this?


Given that you want to use a Ranged Weapon as well, I'd say a DEX based Weapon Finesse + Agile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile) is what you want here.

Yep, that looks nice - thanks for pointing it out.


Reloading will be a problem.
3 ways around:
Use an 'advanced' Firearm (least likely to be allowed).
Use a Throwing weapon.
Grow an extra arm (personal favorite).

1) I think it's safe to assume that advanced firearms are out.
2) :smallfrown: not as cool as a gun though...
3) Yes! - a 10-level dip into Summoner and I'm sorted then! :smalltongue: (I like the style so much it's almost worth trying to convince the DM to allow some sort of "mutant" character trait :smallwink:)

There are two problems here:
a) lacking a free hand for reloading
b) only being able to reload one barrel of a one-handed firearm each round (using rapid reload and alchemical cartridges) as it's still a swift action, not a free action.

Are there any more thoughts on how to achieve the free hand?
How do regular Gunslingers do full rounds of attack past the first round if they can't keep reloading? (or is the answer just "they don't"?)

[grarrrg]

Firearms: The feat says "ranged attack" not "ranged touch attack". If you have a nice DM it may still work, but by the letter it won't.

Linky to Firearms (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/firearms):
"the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim."

Firearms are a Ranged Attack. Sometimes they can target Touch AC, this does NOT make them a Ranged Touch attack.


3) Yes! - a 10-level dip into Summoner and I'm sorted then! :smalltongue: (I like the style so much it's almost worth trying to convince the DM to allow some sort of "mutant" character trait :smallwink:)

There are two problems here:
a) lacking a free hand for reloading
b) only being able to reload one barrel of a one-handed firearm each round (using rapid reload and alchemical cartridges) as it's still a swift action, not a free action.)

Rapid Reload+Cartridges (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/alchemical-cartridges) is a Free Action.
Default for Pistol is a Standard action.
Rapid Reload makes this a Move.
Cartridges "move action becomes a free action"

Alchemist 2, pick up the Vestigial Arm Discovery. You can NOT use the extra arm to make any kind of extra attack, but reloading is not attacking.

Alternate option is to find a race with a "tail can hold stuff" trait (there are 2? maybe 3?), then you can Free Action switch the Weapon to the Tail, use your now free hand to Free Action reload, then Free Action switch gun back to hand.

[jaybird]

One ideas is Phalanx Soldier (Fighter).


At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon.

Buckler, reach weapon, your choice of ranged weapon. Use the polearm to keep people out of reach so they don't get AoOs off on you.

Crossbow Mastery lets you reload crossbows without provoking AoOs.

Overall, I'd suggest Phalanx Fighter with throwing axes. It lets you avoid taking AoOs for taking ranged attacks, you avoid the problem of reloading, and the best of all: arguably, a two-handed polearm in Pathfinder still does 1.5xStr damage when wielded with one hand.


Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Doesn't look like it matters how many hands you're actually wielding the weapon with. In addition, you still get 1:2 PA returns. Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, et cetera. You'll need to stay straight Fighter for all the feats you'll need for this build.

[grarrrg]

arguably, a two-handed polearm in Pathfinder still does 1.5xStr damage when wielded with one hand.

Umm...no.
"At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon."

The 1.5 STR to damage is a bonus when using 2-hands to use a weapon.
Phalanx makes the weapon 1-handed. This means your options are "use it with 1 hand" or "use it with 2 hands and get 1.5 STR to damage".


Anywho...Two-Weapon Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/two-weapon-warrior) Fighter looks like a decent candidate to pull this off.
Dodge bonus to AC at level 3
Two attacks with one Standard at 9th
11 and 15 reduce the Two-Weapon to-hit penalties, OR give you the option of treating a One-Handed weapon as a Light weapon (this means either no penalties if using a Light Ranged weapon, like Throwing Daggers, OR reduced penalties if using no Light weapons)

[NightbringerGGZ]

Has anybody brought up the idea of using an Axe Musket or Warhammer Musket? That get's around the extra limb requirement for reloading and a 1d8 x4 melee attack isn't bad. You can also 2-hand that attack for x1.5 Str damage. No need for two weapon fighting either.

[jaybird]

Umm...no.
"At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon."

The 1.5 STR to damage is a bonus when using 2-hands to use a weapon.
Phalanx makes the weapon 1-handed. This means your options are "use it with 1 hand" or "use it with 2 hands and get 1.5 STR to damage".


It's a difference that was made in 3.5 but not in Pathfinder. In 3.5, one-handed and two-handed weapons were differed by size - a Large longsword is the same as a Medium greatsword. In Pathfinder, there's a disconnect and all weapons under the "Two-Handed" category, according to the rules in the weapons section, do 1.5xStr damage.

[grarrrg]

It's a difference that was made in 3.5 but not in Pathfinder. In 3.5, one-handed and two-handed weapons were differed by size - a Large longsword is the same as a Medium greatsword. In Pathfinder, there's a disconnect and all weapons under the "Two-Handed" category, according to the rules in the weapons section, do 1.5xStr damage.

3.5 has nothing to do with it.

The Phalanx Fighter ability says you can treat it as a One-Hand weapon.
If you choose to treat it as a One-Hand weapon, then it is NOT a Two-Hand weapon.
If you choose to use it as a Two-hand weapon, you NEED to use Two hands.

A One-Hand weapon, used it one hand, only gets 1xSTR to damage.

[jaybird]

3.5 has nothing to do with it.

The Phalanx Fighter ability says you can treat it as a One-Hand weapon.
If you choose to treat it as a One-Hand weapon, then it is NOT a Two-Hand weapon.
If you choose to use it as a Two-hand weapon, you NEED to use Two hands.

A One-Hand weapon, used it one hand, only gets 1xSTR to damage.

You're right - I didn't read it properly :smallsigh: I looked over it and saw "wield a spear or polearm in one hand". My mistake.

[Zuur]

Rapid Reload+Cartridges (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/alchemical-cartridges) is a Free Action.
Default for Pistol is a Standard action.
Rapid Reload makes this a Move.
Cartridges "move action becomes a free action"

Ah yes true; I'm not sure where I saw the Move=>Swift=>Free progression for reloading times; I think it was on a Gunslinger Archetype ability and I thought the same progression was used for reloading times everywhere. Thanks for clarifying that; it makes the whole thing a lot easier :smallredface:


Alchemist 2, pick up the Vestigial Arm Discovery. You can NOT use the extra arm to make any kind of extra attack, but reloading is not attacking.

Who would have thought getting an extra arm would be that easy!

I had a sexy high-charisma human or half-elf in mind for this character (skin-tight leather just seemed to match the whip for some reason), but with an extra arm coming out the side..... Maybe I should be going for a little deformed goblinoid looking fellow instead :smallwink:


Alternate option is to find a race with a "tail can hold stuff" trait (there are 2? maybe 3?), then you can Free Action switch the Weapon to the Tail, use your now free hand to Free Action reload, then Free Action switch gun back to hand.

This I like even better!

From what I can find, Kobold, Tiefling and Vanara are the 3 options here, and a Tiefling would fit in nicely with the +2 Dex... (also I don't think I have any chance of convincing our DM on either of the other two races) - So I'll pencil in a Tiefling as the race of choice.


One ideas is Phalanx Soldier (Fighter).

Buckler, reach weapon, your choice of ranged weapon. Use the polearm to keep people out of reach so they don't get AoOs off on you.

Crossbow Mastery lets you reload crossbows without provoking AoOs.

Overall, I'd suggest Phalanx Fighter with throwing axes. It lets you avoid taking AoOs for taking ranged attacks, you avoid the problem of reloading,

The extra damage from a polearm is certainly tempting, and I would only have to wait till 3rd level to get it... It's worth some more investigation, thanks :smallsmile:


Anywho...Two-Weapon Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/two-weapon-warrior) Fighter looks like a decent candidate to pull this off.
Dodge bonus to AC at level 3
Two attacks with one Standard at 9th
11 and 15 reduce the Two-Weapon to-hit penalties, OR give you the option of treating a One-Handed weapon as a Light weapon (this means either no penalties if using a Light Ranged weapon, like Throwing Daggers, OR reduced penalties if using no Light weapons)

Yeah, this whole Archetype sounds like a nice fit. I guess if I'm focussing on one attack getting bonuses off another I should get as many attacks as I can get!

This leads into my next question: Whip is 1-handed and all guns are 1-handed... Ideally one of them would be light for my off-hand... I could use darts or shurikens for the ranged weapon, but does anyone have any good ideas on how to get around this with a gun (or crossbow)? (looking at you grarrrg :smallwink:)

The Two Weapon Warrior Archetype can do it but not till 11th level...


Has anybody brought up the idea of using an Axe Musket or Warhammer Musket? That get's around the extra limb requirement for reloading and a 1d8 x4 melee attack isn't bad. You can also 2-hand that attack for x1.5 Str damage. No need for two weapon fighting either.

Hmm,... this really does seem like a better option doesn't it :smallconfused: I would only need Point-Blank Master to reload without provoking while threatened at 4th-level for this....

The Axe Musket is "kind of like a double weapon"... Can I use Two Weapon Fighting with this and do half the attacks with the gun and the other half with the axe? I know I could just do my regular number of attacks, but getting as many attacks in as possible would be nice...?

[Hytheter]

If you wind up using a Whip, the Whip Mastery line of feats is really cool, if not optimal. The first at least is a must for any whip users.
Are there any classes that grant proficiency with a Whip though?

[Zuur]

If you wind up using a Whip, the Whip Mastery line of feats is really cool, if not optimal. The first at least is a must for any whip users.
Are there any classes that grant proficiency with a Whip though?

Bards get Whip proficency. I think the Kensai (Magus Archetype) gets prof with one exotic weapon of their choice. Half elves can take a racial trait to get proficiency with one exotic weapon, and I think Hobgoblins can get the Whip specifically as an alternate racial trait. Can't think of any others off hand.

Yeah, it seems like you *need* to take all the Whip feats for a whip to amount to anything, but what it amounts to isn't as good as you'd expect after spending that many feats.... I would love to make it work for a damaging build, (I know there's a few tripping builds around which do excel at tripping but leave the damage up to someone else).

[Hytheter]

Bards get Whip proficency. I think the Kensai (Magus Archetype) gets prof with one exotic weapon of their choice. Half elves can take a racial trait to get proficiency with one exotic weapon, and I think Hobgoblins can get the Whip specifically as an alternate racial trait. Can't think of any others off hand.

Yeah, it seems like you *need* to take all the Whip feats for a whip to amount to anything, but what it amounts to isn't as good as you'd expect after spending that many feats.... I would love to make it work for a damaging build, (I know there's a few tripping builds around which do excel at tripping but leave the damage up to someone else).

Oh yeah, the Kensai gives you Weapon Focus too, so a 1 level dip (or more if you prefer) lessens the feat Tax for Whip Mastery. The hobgoblin thing is nice too, since it gives you a bonus to trip and disarm when using the whip.

I'm not sure you really need to take all the whip feats; just Whip Mastery takes away all the crippling problems of the whip, giving you a 15' reach weapon which isn't too bad I don't think. It's still only 1d3 damage, but by the time you start adding bonuses the difference between that and another weapon becomes negligible. The others seem to be much less useful, but very cool. Grab far away items, use it as a grappeling hook, or grapple opponents at range; lots of fun imo. Shame about those BAB pre-requisites, especially if you're trying to get there with straight Bard or Kensai...

For the purposes of Opening Volley, I feel like throwing Daggers with Quick Draw is the way to go. It'd be great if you could reload Crossbows and Firearms with one hand (there really should be a feat for that) but as it is, something that never requires a second hand will probably get your further.

But no matter what you do, you're going down a long road feats-wise.

[grarrrg]

This leads into my next question: Whip is 1-handed and all guns are 1-handed... Ideally one of them would be light for my off-hand... I could use darts or shurikens for the ranged weapon, but does anyone have any good ideas on how to get around this with a gun (or crossbow)? (looking at you grarrrg :smallwink:)

The Two Weapon Warrior Archetype can do it but not till 11th level...

You could always declare your crossbow/gun the "main weapon" and your melee the off-hand. Then as long as your Melee is light, no (extra) penalties.
You'd only get 1/2 STR to damage though...

For what it's worth, Whips ARE a Light Weapon. And you can attack with either hand first, if needed.


Hmm,... this really does seem like a better option doesn't it :smallconfused: I would only need Point-Blank Master to reload without provoking while threatened at 4th-level for this....

The Axe Musket is "kind of like a double weapon"... Can I use Two Weapon Fighting with this and do half the attacks with the gun and the other half with the axe? I know I could just do my regular number of attacks, but getting as many attacks in as possible would be nice...?
Has anybody brought up the idea of using an Axe Musket or Warhammer Musket? That get's around the extra limb requirement for reloading and a 1d8 x4 melee attack isn't bad. You can also 2-hand that attack for x1.5 Str damage. No need for two weapon fighting either.

You'd have to get the "Axe Musket > Double Weapon" thing approved by your DM, because as-is, it is not a double weapon, so you'd have to take -4/-4 penalties when Two-Weapon fighting with it (or just skip Two-weapon, which kind of defeats the purpose...).
It is enchanted like a double weapon, which just means the 'shooty bits' and the 'stabby bits' don't share bonuses.

Also, assuming you DO get it approved as a double weapon, you'll then have to see if you can get a special "2-handing" exemption.
Double Weapons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons#wpn-quality-double):
"You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons...You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."

So you could only use the 'axe' part as a 1-handed weapon this way.


Bards get Whip proficency. I think the Kensai (Magus Archetype) gets prof with one exotic weapon of their choice. Half elves can take a racial trait to get proficiency with one exotic weapon, and I think Hobgoblins can get the Whip specifically as an alternate racial trait. Can't think of any others off hand.

Huntmaster Cavalier gets Whip prof. as well, the only Full Bab class to do so.


I'm not sure you really need to take all the whip feats; just Whip Mastery takes away all the crippling problems of the whip, giving you a 15' reach weapon which isn't too bad I don't think.

The first Whip feat just lets you deal Lethal damage and not provoke AoO's.
The Improved Whip lets you threaten out to 10ft. and do some stupid 'whip tricks'.
Greater Whip lets you Grapple and do some more stupid 'whip tricks'.

Improved is where most people stop.


For the purposes of Opening Volley, I feel like throwing Daggers with Quick Draw is the way to go.

But no matter what you do, you're going down a long road feats-wise.
Yeah, as cool as firearms are, it's looking like a pain to get them to actually work nicely.

As for feats, Fighter does feats very well (and the Two-Weapon archetype seems to be a good fit).
Ranger can be a way to get Two-Weapon feats without needing extra high DEX.

[Zuur]

Thanks grarrrg!


For what it's worth, Whips ARE a Light Weapon. And you can attack with either hand first, if needed.

The Core Rulebook lists them as an exotic one-handed weapon, and mentions that they can be used with weapon finesse. Is this updated somewhere, or is there a way to treat them as a light weapon?


You'd have to get the "Axe Musket > Double Weapon" thing approved by your DM, because as-is, it is not a double weapon, so you'd have to take -4/-4 penalties when Two-Weapon fighting with it (or just skip Two-weapon, which kind of defeats the purpose...).
It is enchanted like a double weapon, which just means the 'shooty bits' and the 'stabby bits' don't share bonuses.

Also, assuming you DO get it approved as a double weapon, you'll then have to see if you can get a special "2-handing" exemption.
Double Weapons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons#wpn-quality-double):
"You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons...You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."

DM approved this - (and he's usually such a nasty DM too! :smallwink:) so I will look into this build further as well.


Huntmaster Cavalier gets Whip prof. as well, the only Full Bab class to do so.

Ah, that's very good to know. The Magus/Kensai gets a fair amount for a 1-level dip for this character; the BAB and delaying fighter levels for fighter-only feats is the only down side.


Yeah, as cool as firearms are, it's looking like a pain to get them to actually work nicely.

As for feats, Fighter does feats very well (and the Two-Weapon archetype seems to be a good fit).
Ranger can be a way to get Two-Weapon feats without needing extra high DEX.

I'll put together a Tiefling Fighter(Two-Weapon archetype) with Whip and Gun build - maybe throwing in a Magus level or a couple of Gunslinger levels for the feats, and then will evaluate coolness vs. practicality at the end.

I really need Point Blank Master early on so I can fire in melee without provoking, which requires Fighter level 4, so any level dipping is a real problem.... :smallfrown:

I'll put together a build based on an optimum ranged weapon and an optimum melee weapon as well and see how they measure up.

Thanks for the input guys! I'm off camping for a few days so will post the builds when I get back for comment. If anyone has more thought on what those optimum ranged and melee weapons would be, please let me know. Also if there's another way to address the "provoking while firing in melee" issue before 4th fighter-level given than it would be good to dip into Magus and Gunslinger early on as well....

[Vanitas]

Um. No. All ranged touch attacks are also ranged attacks by any and every definition I am aware of*. There is no kind of RAW quibble to be made here, and the rules are not that stupid.

*They are attacks (made at a range) for the purposes of spells like invisibility, and they are also ranged attacks for the purposes of feats like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot.

Firearms don't do ranged touch attacks anyway. They are ranged attacks that just so happen to target touch AC, but they are explicitly not ranged touch attacks.

EDIT: ninja'd

[Firest Kathon]

Who would have thought getting an extra arm would be that easy!

I had a sexy high-charisma human or half-elf in mind for this character (skin-tight leather just seemed to match the whip for some reason), but with an extra arm coming out the side..... Maybe I should be going for a little deformed goblinoid looking fellow instead :smallwink:

You could also do a one-level dip into witch to take the Prehensile Hair (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes/common-hexes/hex-prehensile-hair-su) hex, but you can only use this for 1 minute per witch level per day (in one-minute increments), so it's not very usable as a standard combat mode.

[Hytheter]

The Core Rulebook lists them as an exotic one-handed weapon, and mentions that they can be used with weapon finesse. Is this updated somewhere, or is there a way to treat them as a light weapon?
As far as I know you're right. You can use Whips with Weapon Finesse, but they aren't actually a light weapon. Another point in favour of thrown daggers I suppose, since they are light weapons.




I really need Point Blank Master early on so I can fire in melee without provoking, which requires Fighter level 4, so any level dipping is a real problem.... :smallfrown:
If you go with the whip build I don't think you actually need Point Blank Master most of the time, especially early levels. You can just 5' step away from close opponents and then attack from a safe range. Hell, until you get Whip Mastery you might not even use your whip anyway.
Using another weapon does make it more important... but then you also shouldn't need to dip anyway. Just rock Fighter and close your ears to anyone shouting "Tier 5". So I think you're in the clear PBM-wise.
Oh, and if you're using guns don't use it at all, the Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger) Feat is easier to qualify for and does the same thing essentially.

Kensai 1, Fighter 2 can get you Whip Mastery (and the pre-reqs obviously), TWF, Opening Volley and 1 other feat, so there's your Quick Draw for Daggers or Rapid Reload etc. Then you can keep running Fighter for feats (you'll need plenty). You can also get 3 more Magus Levels before losing any more BAB, if that appeals to you. A Gunslinger dip is probably ideal if you want guns.

I'm really starting to feel like there should be a Whip and Gun archetype for the gunslinger. Almost as much as there should be a one-handed reloading feat.

[grarrrg]

The Core Rulebook lists them as an exotic one-handed weapon, and mentions that they can be used with weapon finesse. Is this updated somewhere, or is there a way to treat them as a light weapon?

My mistake, lazy google-fu.
It's actually the Scorpion Whip that's Light (which just adds to the whole "what the ...." when it comes to Whip/Scorpion...).



I'll put together a Tiefling Fighter(Two-Weapon archetype) with Whip and Gun build - maybe throwing in a Magus level or a couple of Gunslinger levels for the feats, and then will evaluate coolness vs. practicality at the end.

I really need Point Blank Master early on so I can fire in melee without provoking, which requires Fighter level 4, so any level dipping is a real problem.... :smallfrown:

1 level of Gunslinger is pretty much mandatory, for the sheer number of bonuses. If going the Musket Axe route, then 3 levels of Musket Master archetype to get Reloading back down to a Free Action (and then you may as well take 4 for the bonus feat...and then 5 for DEX to damage...then you should be good).

As for avoiding AoO's, level 4 seems to be the soonest.

Point Blank Master:
Ranger>Archery Style, level 6
Monk>Zen Archer, level 3 (overall not a bad option, but not a good option for low-level)
Fighter, at least level 4 (4 is needed for Weapon Spec. requirement)

Sword and Pistol (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sword-and-pistol-combat):
WOW this thing has a lot of requirements...and it's still strictly WORSE than Point Blank Master...

Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/gunslinger) (the feat):
Still comes online at level 4-ish, only works for Firearms, but does NOT require "Fighter levels", only Bab.

Close-Quarters Thrower (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/close-quarters-thrower-combat):
Quickest possible option, you can possibly have this at level 1! Downside is that it only works for Thrown weapons.

[Hytheter]

Close-Quarters Thrower (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/close-quarters-thrower-combat):
Quickest possible option, you can possibly have this at level 1! Downside is that it only works for Thrown weapons.

The other downside is Dodge as a pre-req.

But if you're going thrown weapons, you're going to have a free hand most of the time. Free Hand + Dodge is two vital steps towards Crane Style...

[grarrrg]

The other downside is Dodge as a pre-req.

This one comes online the fastest, and the other options have their share of "meh" requirements as well.
Point-Blank Master requires Weapon Specialization (not bad, but not ideal either), which itself requires 'Fighter' levels.
And Sword and Pistol...eats a _LOT_ of feats for the overall WORST bonus of the bunch.

So yeah, Dodge as the only real requirement? I'll take it.
(Gunslinger feat isn't bad either, but has a built-in delay of level 4+, which the OP would prefer sooner).

[ericgrau]

Tripping could be the end goal, in addition to a little damage. You quick draw with a javelin, hit, whip trip the foe, then if successful you move on to a different foe rather than using ranged attacks at a penalty. The enemy is already in trouble anyway. You can 5 foot step in the middle of a full attack if that helps, so you might attack 2 foes up to 6 squares apart.

I wouldn't get improved disarm but even without the feat don't forget disarming is still an option.