Let's show 'em (a lvl 5 challenge to break the game using the purest baked RAW)

[GhengisConrad]

Alright I know the game is broken. I have lurked and posted enough around here to see that. My table is not convinced, and they refuse to lurk.

They all seem to believe that by properly DMing, 'breaks' can be avoided, and that everyone else, (yes the whole internet) is just dumber than they are.

This is absurd.

I know the amount of time they and I spend looking up class features, but as always, especially on interwebs, there is someone (in this case many a persons) more experianced and wiser than you who understands your hobby better than you.

But I digress.

We do play in a fashion, wherein, if you want to craft something weird, you probably don't have the time, or the resources are not to be found. If the rest of the table doesn't want you to do it (its detrimental to each of them/an idea they can't immediately use to their benefit), and don't be surprised if something most powerful than you comes along.

We also use some of the more strict interpretations of RAW. For example, bind chakra feats does not also grant you the epic feat 'extra chakra bind' as a bonus feat., etc.

At any rate, these 'restrictions', my table feels, is good enough to keep the game balanced. They don't beleive in the teir system, and think that somehow the game is divinely inspired, or written by only the wisest mathemeticians in such a way as to be perfectly balanced.

Let's show em'

Level 5, all books but Unearthed Arcana. Brokenist murder face of all time.

Bonus points for using fewer books and simplest concepts. We aren't the brightest table in the universe.

If it has a 'shadow' theme, I can convince them that I came up with it myself, and really shame them into silence/reasonability.

So, let's do it.

[Greenish]

If they define "proper DMing" as "not letting the game break", then yes, they're correct, and their argument is circular.

Also, in before Pun-Pun.

[GhengisConrad]

If they define "proper DMing" as "not letting the game break", then yes, they're correct.

yeah, but they don't let the game break by setting up challenges against the 'broken' things, not by disallowing broken things.

Yeah, I've read pun pun. I guess the critism that the problem with the familiars HD progression stops the limitless HD loophole, and thus most of the build kinda shy'd me away.

I should also note, that we are just barely getting into 3.5, as we had stopped playing 10 years ago and are now just getting back into it. They are rather.. distrustful of 3.5, and likely to just say "yeah, well, I always said 3.5 was broken, let's just go back to 3.0", by which they mean, everything up until July 2003.

[Vaz]

I'm sorry to say that I don't actually have a clue what you are on about.

Your players don't want to break the game, so as a DM you're wanting to break the game because it is possible by RAW.

So is Drown Healing. But that is idiotic. Many broken builds are little more than thought exercises, and are obviously such. Pun Pun, or Zodar Shapechange Shenanigans. Not many DMs have the system mastery or capacity to account for such variety rendering their challenges less so, so why make it harder on yourself; especially when your own system mastery is not the best.

Define Broken. A shugenja is t3 at best. In rokugan however, without access to tome of battle, binders, wozards, clerics, psionics, they are Game Breaking as the other challenges are Usually focused on non Magical Courtiers and OA Samurai classes.

[Somensjev]

couldnt you just make a level 5 kobold ranger with two flaws, who can shoot the sun? :smallwink:

[D4rkh0rus]

It's probably not the most optimized, murderface thing... But I once DMd a Goliath war blade that had the monkey grip feat and some gloves that had the same effect... He could wield huge/colossal weapons as easily as a medium sword. He had also taken cleave and greater cleave... The thing had crazy dmg...


Although if you wanna break the game...

Combat, half minotaur template is probably your best bet warblade or crusader are the stronger melee focused classes.

In skills, factotum is pretty good. Add in a level of cleric and use wands of guidance of the avatar for screwing up all skill checks for the group but yourself.

[GhengisConrad]

No flaws, and no dependance on items.

But I like where this is going.

The more 3.0 content we can rely on the better here.

[Piggy Knowles]

Warforged, Shaper 5
1- Adamantine Body, Psicrystal Affinity
3- Overchannel
5- Burrowing Power

POWERS:
1- Psionic Minor Creation, Astral Construct, Vigor, Entangling Ectoplasm, Crystal Shard
2- Share Pain, Detect Hostile Intent, Control Sound, Psionic Repair Damage
3- Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Energy Wall

Give your psicrystal the artiste personality for improved craft checks. Psionic Minor Creation to create poison bombs. Detect Hostile Intent means you'll almost never be surprised. Vigor + psicrystal + Share Pain, as well as Psionic Repair Damage, gives you ridiculous resilience on top of your high AC and damage reduction. Ectoplasmic Cocoon + burrowing power on your offensive powers to trap enemies and kill them while they can't do much. Astral Construct because it's boss, and you've got other debuffs and utility powers galore.

The really broken part of this is psionic minor creation to make ridiculously large quantities of poisons, of course, but the rest of it is just a solid low-level build as well.

That said, this is NOT 3.0, because 3.0 psionics are kind of awful. More broken (adding psionic focus really cleaned things up a lot), and just overly confusing (urrgggh psionic combat almost turned me away from psionics - I'm very glad I picked up the Expanded Psionics Handbook after 3.5 because it's now one of my favorite sourcebooks, but for a while I was really turned off from the system as a whole).

[Spuddles]

Savage species, polymorph, and assume supernatural ability. Best to use with a beholder at level 10- you get all eye rays with the feat. So a level 10 character with access to polymorph can, in 3.0, spend 1hr/lvl spamming flesh to stone, charm monster, and disintegrate.

[Zman]

"Proper DMing" can stop any attempt to break the game.

Now DMs who let self entitled players break the game because to an obscure use of RAW in ways it was never meant to be used just are bad DMs.

Now, if your group doesn't think the game can be broken, they have a fundamental lack of understanding of even the core rules.

Maybe instead of trying to break the game, you guys as a whole can sit down for a cooperative game where you attempt to balance characters against each other and have fun!

[Piggy Knowles]

Oh, and how about...

Synad or Elan, Rogue 1/Spellthief 1/Focused Transmuter 3

Relevant spells: Wraithstrike, Alter Self
Relevant feats: Maiming Strike

Alter Self into a grell. Attack with eleven natural attacks, using Wraithstrike against enemies with high AC. For each natural attack, drop your +2d6 sneak attack dice into Maiming Strike damage to deal a point of Charisma damage instead. Assuming average CR 5 opponents and a moderate Strength (or Dex + Weapon Finesse, although the feats don't really shake down to allow that), you'll be dealing on average 7-9 points of Charisma damage per attack routine, not to mention regular damage (more with Craven).

Better at level 6 as Rogue 1/Focused Transmuter 4/Unseen Seer 1, but Maiming Strike requires +2d6 sneak, so at level five you've got to go with rogue/spellthief or similar.

[IIzak]

I have a few that are fun and kind of game breaky if done correctly.

1. Warforged Artificer: thats it. Literally you can obtain any item and any spell totally legit, and all it takes is time. Make an item, sell it for more than its cost, make new item, keep trading on up. at lvl 5 you gain access to craft magic arms and armor so u can make all the awesome equipment you could ever need, And because of retain essence, you'd should never technically run out of exp to use to make stuff. unlimited money, access to any spell and any magic item, and it only takes a little time? seems op to me

2. Cleric(4) Ordained Champion(1): my friend made this character and I've seen it do some funny stuff. 18 starting str, ordained champion of hextor, war domain gives him proficiency with heavy flail, and he managed to trip a minotaur the last time we played. Improved trip grants an attack of opportunity when he trips people, so he literally goes, hit for 1d10+4, trip you, hit for 1d10+4 and i believe theres something in ordained champion that lets you channel spells through your weapons, so say hi to my (insert mean spell here) flail, have fun with your life.

3. Factotum (5): I know somebody already said this, but factotums just get crazy with their access to every skill automatically. My factotum I run literally has at least one point in every single skill on the base character sheet and I had to write some extras in (And that was at lvl 3) he's a human, plus he's got that one fey feat (I forget exactly what its called, like favored of the fey or something) so he gains 2 extra skill points every level, and he has skill points in excess, so i get to take advantage of the (IMO) heavily underused skill tricks that only cost like 2 skill points to take, and some of which are stupid good ("Hey there, I'm just going to make my melee attacks become touch attacks with this quick spot check here").

[Big Fau]

Yeah, I've read pun pun. I guess the critism that the problem with the familiars HD progression stops the limitless HD loophole, and thus most of the build kinda shy'd me away.

That criticism isn't valid by RAW. Pun-Pun genuinely works in such a way that the DM has to house rule it to prevent it from happening.

The "limitless HD" trick doesn't even need the familiar; the Familiar is used to get ability scores that are arbitrarily high.

[Zweisteine]

Direct your fellow players to the Oberoni Fallacy. It goes something like this: "the rules aren't broken, because rule 0 can be applied to fix it."

Put into context: "The game is not broken, because a good DM can hold it together."

If you need to make a houserule (or ban something) to prevent game-breaking, then the game was broken. If it wasn't broken, you wouldn't have had to fix it.



Take this example: You buy or craft a candle of invocation for some small amount of money. You then use it to summon an efreeti, which you command to grant you three wishes. Wish for 25,000gp, three times. you have just gained 66,600gp.

To extend this, also command it to tell you its name, and replace the third wish with a wish for a second candle. Wait a day, call the same efreeti by name, and repeat.

That exploit is legal by RAW, starting at caster level 5, the minimum required to control an efreeti.


Also, don't try to convince them that the entire system is broken; it isn't (except truenaming). Convince them that elements of the system are broken, which is truer and more believable.

[OldTrees1]

Direct your fellow players to the Oberoni Fallacy. It goes something like this: "the rules aren't broken, because rule 0 can be applied to fix it."

Put into context: "The game is not broken, because a good DM can hold it together."

If you need to make a houserule (or ban something) to prevent game-breaking, then the game was broken. If it wasn't broken, you wouldn't have had to fix it.


A better example would be better. They do not houserule/ban. (They exclude UA since it is variant rules) I suspect their position is more similar to "Wizards are not OP since the DM can present them with more encounters per day than they have spell slots."

[Juntao112]

Level 5 is when Rope Trick comes about, isn't it?

[GhengisConrad]

Well, for anyone who cares, I was able to convince them that the game is broken.

Now no one wants to play.

"i don't want to spend my time fixing someone elses broken game"

....

I need new friends.

[Yukitsu]

That criticism isn't valid by RAW. Pun-Pun genuinely works in such a way that the DM has to house rule it to prevent it from happening.

The "limitless HD" trick doesn't even need the familiar; the Familiar is used to get ability scores that are arbitrarily high.

Last I recalled you could bypass it by not playing in the forgotten realms, and by RPing Pazuzu rather than letting the player RP Pazuzu.


Direct your fellow players to the Oberoni Fallacy. It goes something like this: "the rules aren't broken, because rule 0 can be applied to fix it."

Put into context: "The game is not broken, because a good DM can hold it together."

If you need to make a houserule (or ban something) to prevent game-breaking, then the game was broken. If it wasn't broken, you wouldn't have had to fix it.

The fallacy isn't relevant in the context of a real world campaign or game. The fallacy only applies to a theoretical analysis of the game.

[Invader]

There's a hundred ways to break the game by RAW and a lot aren't even that hard. Use the trollblooded warforged immune to fire and and acid etc. etc. to be immune to damage.

[GhengisConrad]

Last I recalled you could bypass it by not playing in the forgotten realms

Yeah... but I love shadowpounce. And they like some Forgotten Realms stuff too...

[Yukitsu]

Yeah... but I love shadowpounce. And they like some Forgotten Realms stuff too...

Then let the DM RP Pazuzu, or better yet, have someone kill Pazuzu. Prominent NPCs aren't by rules immune to being killed (if they were, plot bosses would be stupid), the setting and people within it, even to the extent of individuals like Mystra, Elminster is not anywhere protected or guaranteed by RAW. While maybe you could argue that the DM can't kill all of the Sarrukh thus denying their existance RAW, you can't say they couldn't have Pazuzu killed and deny him entirely RAW.

[OldTrees1]

Well, for anyone who cares, I was able to convince them that the game is broken.

Now no one wants to play.

"i don't want to spend my time fixing someone elses broken game"

....

I need new friends.

Have an open conversation about how strong the group thinks PCs should be per level. Then stick to that gentleman's agreement.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, for anyone who cares, I was able to convince them that the game is broken.

Now no one wants to play.

"i don't want to spend my time fixing someone elses broken game"

....

I need new friends.
..."Well, we didn't have problems before, but now that you point it out, yeah, this game is crap. Well, no point in playing it now!" It's like the anti-internet.

[GhengisConrad]

There's a hundred ways to break the game by RAW and a lot aren't even that hard. Use the trollblooded warforged immune to fire and and acid etc. etc. to be immune to damage.

Yeah. This +1000

Point is, their dreams are shattered.

Me? I think you just need to make some kind of ruleset to impose over RAW to kinda... bring the game back in. What exactly that would look like? I am neither experienced or clever enough to come up with that.

And like I said, my table isn't interested in developing such a thing anyway.

Bunch of ideologues is all we are. All of us.

It was fun while it lasted tho.

[GhengisConrad]

Have an open conversation about how strong the group thinks PCs should be per level. Then stick to that gentleman's agreement.

Yeah, you see, we don't like playing with other people, and played only mostly with each other, because what we enjoy is twisting and breaking. For us, the fun was always in devising the build. We spent about 99.9% of our time thinking about and discussing our builds.

I think that's a large part of the frustration. Is that we spent so much time trying to break the rules, and there the breaks were, right in front of our faces.

A gentlemen's agreement is the opposite of why/how we play.


Thing is, I really enjoy making a role-played backstory for the monstrosity I create... and I was really getting into the idea of a totemist/umbral disciple/ aberration blooded freak of a brazilian attacks... I can't get him out of my mind... but if there is no way to... win... with him... then... meh.... eh... erghthmmsmmmmmmm....... 何すればいいか本当にわかんない。。。

[OldTrees1]

Yeah, you see, we don't like playing with other people, and played only mostly with each other, because what we enjoy is twisting and breaking. For us, the fun was always in devising the build. We spent about 99.9% of our time thinking about and discussing our builds.

I think that's a large part of the frustration. Is that we spent so much time trying to break the rules, and there the breaks were, right in front of our faces.

A gentlemen's agreement is the opposite of why/how we play.

It is not that different. Let me describe a game to you.

We have 5 friends playing as contestants of this game. Each contestant is charged with designing a 3.5 build. However as a twist each contestant has the ability to veto material. No vetoed material can be used in any contestant's build.

How will this game around the game (a metagame if you will) develop?

After all 5 builds are finalized and the are no further vetos, the 5 friends sit down and start playing D&D (rotating DM).

[Darrin]

Level 5? This was my proposal for a low level OP challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15634823&postcount=19).

Looking over the list of famous optimized character builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258580), Bubs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7097263#post7097263) is ECL 4ish. Trouserfang Dwarf (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1086201) could be ECL 3ish, demonstrating that one to your group could be... very interesting.

How exactly does your group handle "infinite money" tricks? Water to acid is available at Wizard 5.

Or if you'd rather skip directly to the "infinite wishes" part, a Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 2 can grab lesser planar binding as a 3rd level spell (Book of Vile Darkness, Demonologist 3). Bind a mirror mephit (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits), and compel it to create a simulacrum of an efreet under your exclusive control. Or a black ethergaunt (17th level wizard spellcasting). If you run out of wishes, rinse and repeat as necessary.

[GhengisConrad]

Each contestant is charged with designing a 3.5 build. However as a twist each contestant has the ability to veto material. No vetoed material can be used in any contestant's build.

How will this game around the game (a metagame if you will) develop?

I must come across as more charming and friendly in text than I am IRL.

This would quickly degenerate into a series of spiteful vetos and endless bickering.

It would mostly be my fault.

[Yukitsu]

I must come across as more charming and friendly in text than I am IRL.

This would quickly degenerate into a series of spiteful vetos and endless bickering.

It would mostly be my fault.

To be fair, I think the current situation is mostly your fault. There's never any point in trying to prove yourself right to your friends, unless being right is more important than having friends.

[GhengisConrad]

To be fair, I think the current situation is mostly your fault. There's never any point in trying to prove yourself right to your friends, unless being right is more important than having friends.

Yeah, I mean, we are all equally autistic in this fashion. For each of us, the TRUTH is more important than having friends... this is mostly why we have no friends.

I wasn't trying to 'prove myself right', as much as I was trying to 'share and communicate a new truth I had discovered'. A subtle but important distinction.

[OldTrees1]

I must come across as more charming and friendly in text than I am IRL.

This would quickly degenerate into a series of spiteful vetos and endless bickering.

It would mostly be my fault.

You are smart enough to realize that if you use spiteful vetoes, then your character would be ruined by spiteful vetos and would never be used. So obviously spiteful vetoes are a losing strategy. Knowing this, what is your new strategy and are you capable of holding to it over the losing strategy (spiteful vetoes)?

[GhengisConrad]

You are smart enough to realize that if you use spiteful vetoes, then your character would be ruined by spiteful vetos and would never be used. So obviously spiteful vetoes are a losing strategy. Knowing this, what is your new strategy and are you capable of holding to it over the losing strategy (spiteful vetoes)?

i c wut u did thar.... :amused:

[Yukitsu]

Yeah, I mean, we are all equally autistic in this fashion. For each of us, the TRUTH is more important than having friends... this is mostly why we have no friends.

I wasn't trying to 'prove myself right', as much as I was trying to 'share and communicate a new truth I had discovered'. A subtle but important distinction.

If you're insistent enough doing the latter, it ends up with the same result. If they disagree, just let it lie, I have a friend who thinks monks are one of the best classes in the game, it does me no good telling him otherwise.

Edit: Guess it doesn't matter anymore, just thinking that the end result of that argument felt pretty foreseeable.

[OldTrees1]

i c wut u did thar.... :amused:

Thanks. Forecasting the results of a strategy can be very informative about if/how one should adjust the strategy.

[Pickford]

That criticism isn't valid by RAW. Pun-Pun genuinely works in such a way that the DM has to house rule it to prevent it from happening.

The "limitless HD" trick doesn't even need the familiar; the Familiar is used to get ability scores that are arbitrarily high.

Doesn't Pun-Pun rely on two things, both of which require DM approval to occur?

1) Being able to play a scaled one native to toril. (Kobolds aren't a standard race, so it requires DM approval)
2) Meeting a Sarukkh (DM controls what creatures the players encounter)


Idea for the thread:
1) Take the Grenadier feat from PHB II, wear up to your weight allowance in acid vials and ensure you have acid resistance 5.
2) Anytime you are threatened, get into melee range and throw an acid vial at yourself.
3) Profit. (Acid bypasses hardness and deals 2-7 damage, this is enough to shatter all the other vials, each of which deals 2-7 damage (2 points splash damage). Because each source of damage is distinct, the 5 acid resistance protects you entirely. Anyone else takes 2-7xnumber of acid vials you were carrying acid damage. Each vial weighs 1 lb. and someone with 18 str could carry up to 300 of them (600 splash damage total)

[OldTrees1]

Doesn't Pun-Pun rely on two things, both of which require DM approval to occur?

1) Being able to play a scaled one native to toril. (Kobolds aren't a standard race, so it requires DM approval)
2) Meeting a Sarukkh (DM controls what creatures the players encounter)


Doesn't the 1st level Kobold Paladin achieve both of those via their wishes?

[Osiris]

Level 5 is when Rope Trick comes about, isn't it?

If it's extended, cl 4 is fine, but you may miss 1 round for getting in and sleeping immediately, and when it ends, you'll just be pushed out, so cl 5 extended is 10, plenty of sleeping time, with room to prep spells and plan.

Idea for the thread:
1) Take the Grenadier feat from PHB II, wear up to your weight allowance in acid vials and ensure you have acid resistance 5.
2) Anytime you are threatened, get into melee range and throw an acid vial at yourself.
3) Profit. (Acid bypasses hardness and deals 2-7 damage, this is enough to shatter all the other vials, each of which deals 2-7 damage (2 points splash damage). Because each source of damage is distinct, the 5 acid resistance protects you entirely. Anyone else takes 2-7xnumber of acid vials you were carrying acid damage. Each vial weighs 1 lb. and someone with 18 str could carry up to 300 of them (600 splash damage total)
GENIUS!

[Zweisteine]

A better example would be better. They do not houserule/ban. (They exclude UA since it is variant rules) I suspect their position is more similar to "Wizards are not OP since the DM can present them with more encounters per day than they have spell slots."

It was close enough for my purposes. The idea I'm trying to communicate is that you can't argue against the game being broken by saying "do it differently than the books say." Sure, the books don't say you can't add more encounters, but doing so does modify the game on a (relatively) basic level.


The fallacy isn't relevant in the context of a real world campaign or game. The fallacy only applies to a theoretical analysis of the game.

This may be true,* but it does not take anything away from my statement. I was suggesting a method other than exploiting the broken-ness of the rules for the OP to convince his friends that the rules are broken.

Your statement isn't really relevant to the discussion so much either. This exists explicitly to take what is normally restricted to theoretical optimization, and to use it to prove the fallacy.


On that note, I suggest to the OP: If your DM rejects this character by attempting to interpret the rules differently from RAW, making houserules to compensate/prevent it, or by outright banning the character, use it to your advantage. Remind him that the fact that he had to do something to prevent the rules from being broken is proof that there was something broken to fix.

*(Though I disagree with your second statement. The fallacy does apply to the game outside of theoretical analysis, but in a different way.)

[Psyren]

Me? I think you just need to make some kind of ruleset to impose over RAW to kinda... bring the game back in. What exactly that would look like? I am neither experienced or clever enough to come up with that.

It's not that hard, you start with ways they try to break the game and ban those. If they keep trying, guess what, they will do that no matter what kind of houserules you throw out there and you're better off either sitting and talking with them like adults or doing something else with your time together.

[Greenish]

Me? I think you just need to make some kind of ruleset to impose over RAW to kinda... bring the game back in. What exactly that would look like? I am neither experienced or clever enough to come up with that.Test of Spite accumulated a huge list of houserules to balance an arena. They had so many, they finally decided to just write a new game.

That game is Legend (http://www.ruleofcool.com/). It's free, and should tickle your rules-lawyery fancy.

[TuggyNE]

(Kobolds aren't a standard race, so it requires DM approval)

Say what now? Where is this DM approval idea from?


Idea for the thread:
1) Take the Grenadier feat from PHB II, wear up to your weight allowance in acid vials and ensure you have acid resistance 5.
2) Anytime you are threatened, get into melee range and throw an acid vial at yourself.
3) Profit. (Acid bypasses hardness and deals 2-7 damage, this is enough to shatter all the other vials, each of which deals 2-7 damage (2 points splash damage). Because each source of damage is distinct, the 5 acid resistance protects you entirely. Anyone else takes 2-7xnumber of acid vials you were carrying acid damage. Each vial weighs 1 lb. and someone with 18 str could carry up to 300 of them (600 splash damage total)

Where is acid damage stated to bypass hardness, in general?

(I feel I should also mention the dysfunctional RAW that energy resistance as a special ability applies only once per round; thus, this trick technically would result in dying to 299d6+299 acid damage the first time you tried it.)

[Yukitsu]

Where is acid damage stated to bypass hardness, in general?

(I feel I should also mention the dysfunctional RAW that energy resistance as a special ability applies only once per round; thus, this trick technically would result in dying to 299d6+299 acid damage the first time you tried it.)

But don't worry, because you can't actually deal damage to the things you're wearing that don't require reflex saves anyway.

[iceman10058]

i have tpk a 10th level party with a stock kolbold and traps out of the dmg just cause i know how to do it, however i give you this sugestion.

run them through the tomb of horrors, it was origionally designed to kill the brokest of characters out there when the all mighty high dm gary gygax was still designing and running the game with his friends and it took them a couple times through before they made it out alive

[TuggyNE]

But don't worry, because you can't actually deal damage to the things you're wearing that don't require reflex saves anyway.

I guess that's true too. So, the trick doesn't work for two different reasons, but if it did, you would be the first to die from this tragic disregard of chemistry safety principles.