More on Character Growth

[SavageWombat]

The reason to have an extended secondary villain arc in a story such as this (among others) is so that the heroes, by defeating the secondary villain, grow/change/learn in such a way that they are capable of defeating the main villain.

What did the Order learn from fighting Tarquin (and Nale, I suppose) that will ultimately help them defeat Xykon? Suggestions?

Lesson One - Don't Let the Villain Determine the Terms of the Conflict

[Shale]

Elan grew into a more pragmatic hero without losing his core good nature.

Haley no longer has the albatross of her captive father hanging around her neck (pending his escape from the western continent)

V seems to be walking a middle ground between blowing up everything in sight and refusing to use force on principle (e.g. the slaver battle).

Belkar is developing actual sentimental bonds.

Durkon's relationship to the Dwarven Lands is going to be a lot more complicated now.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Perhaps not the Order in general, but I think some of the characters developed. Elan learned that sometimes it is necessary to hurt those close to him by realizing that he didn't want to pull up Tarquin. Vaarsuvius learned that every action can have serious consequences.

[SavageWombat]

Elan grew into a more pragmatic hero without losing his core good nature.

Haley no longer has the albatross of her captive father hanging around her neck (pending his escape from the western continent)

V seems to be walking a middle ground between blowing up everything in sight and refusing to use force on principle (e.g. the slaver battle).

Belkar is developing actual sentimental bonds.

Durkon's relationship to the Dwarven Lands is going to be a lot more complicated now.

Yes, these are all good examples of growth, but how do they help the party Win?

[Shale]

Haley and Belkar can now be more completely committed to the battle against Xykon - Haley doesn't have her father weighing on her mind, and Belkar has a cat in the fight, so to speak. V's careful consideration of his/her actions should lead to greater effectiveness in the future, although there's the whole sudden-soul-stealing thing to worry about. Durkon's character growth may or may not make him a better opponent to Xykon and Redcloak, but his DR and fast healing and crazy vampire powers sure will.

[Bulldog Psion]

Yes, these are all good examples of growth, but how do they help the party Win?

Though trite, the real answer is "we don't know yet." Since I have extreme doubts that the OotS are going to toe to toe with Xykon in order to resolve the plot, it is moot that none of these developments affect their fighting abilities, though. IMO, of course.

[DeadMG]

Maybe they all levelled up nicely from all their character growth.

[AutomatedTeller]

Durkon's the best spy the order could have. If they choose to use him that way.

Also, the order understands that they cannot completely rely on V.

[rbetieh]

There has been a lot of story growth, and a lot of character change. I dont know if all of the changes are "growth" though.

Here is an interesting consideration....Roy

Roy started the first arc as a character that was self confident, and did not fully trust his own party (in totality, I am fairly certain he had no trust issues with Durkon, and maybe V). Eventually, this line of thinking leads to his downfall....

And in this arc, he begins to rely much more heavily on his team (sans Belkar, whom is still being just used by Roy for Good reason). More importantly, he begins to value his team more (to the point of not wanting to put a dominated kobold at risk, and telling Belkar to stay down and make cover while drained instead of fighting) .

So far so good right? But this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html) may hold unfortunate implications for Roy in the future. You see, Roy was right; the cost of this adventure was unnecessarily high and continuing down the path he was on would only increase the cost with no added reward. Belkar convinces Roy to accept a Sunk Cost Fallacy, and it turned out semi-ok (Enemies did not get hands on gate, universe is one gate closer to unraveling...so not the worst possible outcome but still a bad outcome). If Roy takes a lesson away from this, you may see him start to take more risks again, except this time it will be with his entire party, not just with himself... And this raises an interesting question, does Roy need to start doing this to win?

[jidasfire]

So far so good right? But this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html) may hold unfortunate implications for Roy in the future. You see, Roy was right; the cost of this adventure was unnecessarily high and continuing down the path he was on would only increase the cost with no added reward. Belkar convinces Roy to accept a Sunk Cost Fallacy, and it turned out semi-ok (Enemies did not get hands on gate, universe is one gate closer to unraveling...so not the worst possible outcome but still a bad outcome). If Roy takes a lesson away from this, you may see him start to take more risks again, except this time it will be with his entire party, not just with himself... And this raises an interesting question, does Roy need to start doing this to win?

It wasn't a sunk cost fallacy though. That relates to doing something you know is a bad idea because you've already put so much into it. Roy's cause is not a bad one and not one he'd give up on if he thought he could. In fact, I'd say he was initially in danger of doing the exact opposite: giving up on a cause he knew to be right because the price was too high. Belkar's admonishment was to remind Roy that if he gave up, among other things, his best friend would have died in vain.

And I would say that was Roy's lesson for this arc: when the going gets tough, really tough even, you still don't give up. Roy had faced his own death and come out the other side, but losing someone he cares about to the quest was almost too much for him. And given what's probably coming next, the final battle is approaching at breakneck speed now, there may yet be some more costs, and Roy as the leader will have to be able to face them. And funny enough, it took the two members of the team most often seen as liabilities to show him that, which actually gave him reason to trust both of them just a little bit more.

[Kish]

Continuing down the path they were on resulted in them getting Durkon back, the Linear Guild being wiped out, Malack dying and Tarquin screaming helplessly after them. Fleeing the pyramid when Roy considered fleeing it would have meant someone horrifically evil (whether Nale, Tarquin, or Xykon) got to decide what to do with the gate, Durkon remained as Malack's thrall or--in an absolute best possible outcome--rejoined the Order under his own power after Nale still killed Malack somehow, and Tarquin...quite possibly got something he wanted. Therefore, Roy was right to want to flee and the outcome of him continuing was bad?

[rbetieh]

Continuing down the path they were on resulted in them getting Durkon back, the Linear Guild being wiped out, Malack dying and Tarquin screaming helplessly after them. Fleeing the pyramid when Roy considered fleeing it would have meant someone horrifically evil (whether Nale, Tarquin, or Xykon) got to decide what to do with the gate, Durkon remained as Malack's thrall or--in an absolute best possible outcome--rejoined the Order under his own power after Nale still killed Malack somehow, and Tarquin...quite possibly got something he wanted. Therefore, Roy was right to want to flee and the outcome of him continuing was bad?

Correct. At that very moment when he makes his decision, he knows that with the reources he currently has, he is gambling the lives of his entire party on a very low chance of victory. That the reward is very large does not change the level of risk involved. The most likely outcome at that moment is total party kill and evil still wins. Roy is being logical albeit in a paniced state. That it turned out well doesn't change the fact that at that moment he took a disproportionate risk, that he gambled on the long shot. The question posed is what are the consequences of his gamble suceededing to his future outlook?

[Shale]

Is the risk to them really that high? Yes, a TPK is bad news, but evil triumphant is also bad news. Especially if the Dark One releases the Snarl. Unless somebody else is capable of foiling Xykon, the choice is between a small chance of survival by continuing the fight and an even smaller chance to survive after the bad guys win.

[Megsie]

Correct. At that very moment when he makes his decision, he knows that with the reources he currently has, he is gambling the lives of his entire party on a very low chance of victory. That the reward is very large does not change the level of risk involved. The most likely outcome at that moment is total party kill and evil still wins. Roy is being logical albeit in a paniced state. That it turned out well doesn't change the fact that at that moment he took a disproportionate risk, that he gambled on the long shot. The question posed is what are the consequences of his gamble suceededing to his future outlook?

It seems that you are suggesting that the certainty of bringing death/destruction/mayhem to the entire world is preferable to the (potentially great) possibility of dying and that happening anyway. When the options are odds of 'slim', and 'none', the wise adventurer always goes with slim.

[Amphiox]

Perhaps Elan's character growth here will be what allows him to use his max CHA to help talk the MitD into turning on Team Evil, when the time comes...?

[rbetieh]

It seems that you are suggesting that the certainty of bringing death/destruction/mayhem to the entire world is preferable to the (potentially great) possibility of dying and that happening anyway. When the options are odds of 'slim', and 'none', the wise adventurer always goes with slim.

You are making the mistake of assuming that the only heroes capable of stopping Xykon/Recloak and/or Tarquing/Nale are the Order of the Stick. Roy states in that very same comic that this is not the case.

Roy does not have as much information as the reader does, but he does know that Xykon and Redcloak were sitting in the dungeon of Dorukan for a rather long time. The gate falling into the wrong hands is bad, but not immediately bad. It's a doomsday countdown. Roy know that the countdown begins when the bad guys get the gate, and although he does not exactly know how much time he gets, he knows its not a matter of hours. So yes, his suggested course of action (find a group better suited to finishing the task) is actually a less risky proposition than pressing forward, especially when you factor in that the OOTS and a group of paladins half-way across the world are the only Heroes that know about this problem and Roy actually has at that moment no way of contacting the paladins from his end to let them know how bad things have gotten. The Saphire guard couldn't fix it if the OOTS tpks.

Roys thought process at that point is rational. We can be certain that the story would not have followed Roys course of action (boring efficiency...), but we can be equally certain that Belkars argument (If you dont press forward, the sacrifices already made are meaningless) is fallacious. It was a bad gamble that turned out well, and that may change Roys outlook going forward.


Belkar's admonishment was to remind Roy that if he gave up, among other things, his best friend would have died in vain.

Jidasfire, that is the very definition of a sunk cost fallacy. We must press on and potentially lose the rest of my friends because the one friend I lost would have died in vain if we don't win. Where is the guarantee that pressing on will achieve victory? There are things Roy has to lose and things Roy is fighting over. Roy has his life and the life of his friends to lose. He does not have the world, or the gates, these are things he is fighting over. Belkar convinces Roy to put all of his chips (the life of his friends and himself) on a 17 roulette spin, on the sole reason that not doing this means the chips he has already lost will have been frittered away otherwise.

But again, I am more interested in whether this will change Roys outlook going forward, and what will it mean for the team dynamic.

[thereaper]

As Belkar pointed out, if anyone else was going to show up to save the world, they would probably have done so already.

[The Grim Author]

Roy does not have as much information as the reader does, but he does know that Xykon and Redcloak were sitting in the dungeon of Dorukan for a rather long time. The gate falling into the wrong hands is bad, but not immediately bad. It's a doomsday countdown. Roy know that the countdown begins when the bad guys get the gate, and although he does not exactly know how much time he gets, he knows its not a matter of hours. So yes, his suggested course of action (find a group better suited to finishing the task) is actually a less risky proposition than pressing forward, especially when you factor in that the OOTS and a group of paladins half-way across the world are the only Heroes that know about this problem and Roy actually has at that moment no way of contacting the paladins from his end to let them know how bad things have gotten. The Saphire guard couldn't fix it if the OOTS tpks.

And how, exactly, does the Sapphire Guard find out? The Order don't have a wizard at the moment (s/he doesn't even locate them until they're about to break down the gate, and at that point the IFCC decides "Well, it's time for Soultaking"). Elan doesn't have the proper spells, and might not have the ranks in UMD even if Roy somehow managed to get a scroll of Sending.


Jidasfire, that is the very definition of a sunk cost fallacy. We must press on and potentially lose the rest of my friends because the one friend I lost would have died in vain if we don't win. Where is the guarantee that pressing on will achieve victory? There are things Roy has to lose and things Roy is fighting over. Roy has his life and the life of his friends to lose. He does not have the world, or the gates, these are things he is fighting over. Belkar convinces Roy to put all of his chips (the life of his friends and himself) on a 17 roulette spin, on the sole reason that not doing this means the chips he has already lost will have been frittered away otherwise.

Actually, you're missing the point of Roy's rant. The whole point of what he's trying to angrily convey to Haley and Elan is summed up nicely in his last line before Belkar interjects. "You were all better off when I was still dead." He's not seeing this as a failure in the short term. He's at a deep low, where he believes that all of his effort since being raised was for naught. Roy feels that Durkon's death, and perhaps this whole thing, is happening because he got raised (well, Resurrected, technically).

It's not the Sunken Cost Fallacy. It's a metaphorical power cycling of a Heroic BSOD. Belkar is telling Roy that, at that very moment, he is acting like Belkar Bitterleaf, the Chaotic Evil Ranger/Barbarian who'd rather survive to kill another day, rather than Roy Greenhilt, the Lawful Good Fighter who sacrificed himself to try and defeat Xykon once before — and who was granted access to Heaven because unlike his father, he never gave up on the Blood Oath that was forced upon him.

We saw a little bit of Eugene in him at that moment. "Get someone else to kill Xykon. I'm not going to." Belkar most likely reminded Roy of who he was behaving like. As he said in Strip 500 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html), "[E]very time I stoop to the level of engaging you with another angry tirade, I'm a little more like you and a little less like Mom." Roy doesn't want to turn into Eugene, and Belkar reminded him (albeit indirectly) that by abandoning his oath, that was who he was becoming. After all, as Roy's mom said of her onetime husband, "He rarely sees any one project through to the end." (Strip 495 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html))

[WindStruck]

I have to say that simply because things worked out alright, it doesn't mean it was the best decision. It's kind of like gambling your life savings on a specific number playing Roulette, but because you won and increased your wealth big time, that was a smart thing to do? Well, what would have happened in the far more likely outcome that you lost?

Admittedly, the spot Roy was in was bad and it seems nothing he could do would end well... but I do think a slightly better alternative than risking his entire team wiping (which could have easily happened on multiple occasions) and destroying yet another gate, he could have tried to actually negotiate with Tarquin on the matter. Because in all honestly, the crazy man wouldn't know what to do with the gate anyway, and he wasn't the type to destroy the whole world.

[Rodin]

I have to say that simply because things worked out alright, it doesn't mean it was the best decision. It's kind of like gambling your life savings on a specific number playing Roulette, but because you won and increased your wealth big time, that was a smart thing to do? Well, what would have happened in the far more likely outcome that you lost?

Admittedly, the spot Roy was in was bad and it seems nothing he could do would end well... but I do think a slightly better alternative than risking his entire team wiping (which could have easily happened on multiple occasions) and destroying yet another gate, he could have tried to actually negotiate with Tarquin on the matter. Because in all honestly, the crazy man wouldn't know what to do with the gate anyway, and he wasn't the type to destroy the whole world.

That actually gets us to the same point we're at now, only without the deaths of Nale, Malack, and Zz'dtri, and Durkon still not himself. Tarquin said he was probably going to destroy the gate anyway, and with the arrival of Xykon imminent Roy wouldn't be quibbling on the matter.

Same resolution, only with more bad guys alive. The gate was going boom, and from Roy's perspective they were just as likely to get vampirized by Tarquin's group as they were to be able to negotiate at all.

Besides, we know how negotiating turns out anyway, because they did so at the crater. And Tarquin tried to kill them all.

In addition to all that, there was never an opportunity to negotiate with Tarquin. Tarquin was gone, leaving them to negotiate with Nale (not happening) and Malack (just vampirized his best friend). Even if they managed to negotiate a truce, that lasts exactly as long as it would take for Xykon to fly down and butcher them while Tarquin is still off explaining things to Laurin.

Roy's decision to push onto the final gate and destroy it was a valid one.

[WindStruck]

You're still judging everything by the outcomes rather than the soundness of the decisions at the time. Eh, let me explain this better... what you're using is Meta-knowledge. Things that Roy couldn't have known about.


That actually gets us to the same point we're at now, only without the deaths of Nale, Malack, and Zz'dtri, and Durkon still not himself. Tarquin said he was probably going to destroy the gate anyway, and with the arrival of Xykon imminent Roy wouldn't be quibbling on the matter.And what if Tarquin was told how fundamentally important it is to the universe to keep the gates intact?


Same resolution, only with more bad guys alive. The gate was going boom, and from Roy's perspective they were just as likely to get vampirized by Tarquin's group as they were to be able to negotiate at all.
Well the goal was to merely "protect the gate". And preferably, not blow it up. Not kill all the "bad guys". Though I agree, vamping Durkon would be quite intimidating... it would be hard to tell if it was all part of a plan to kill them all or if it was just Malack doing his own thing. They did, however, get a message from Malack to just give up. Well, not quite what they'd want to do but it would be a start...


Besides, we know how negotiating turns out anyway, because they did so at the crater. And Tarquin tried to kill them all.Well Roy wouldn't have known Tarquin would be all crazy in that regard and want to kill him just to put his son in charge.


In addition to all that, there was never an opportunity to negotiate with Tarquin. Tarquin was gone, leaving them to negotiate with Nale (not happening) and Malack (just vampirized his best friend).Again, they didn't know Tarquin left the building.


Even if they managed to negotiate a truce, that lasts exactly as long as it would take for Xykon to fly down and butcher them while Tarquin is still off explaining things to Laurin.And now we're getting to the realm of Roy being able to predict the exact timing of events such as knowing the exact moment the big bad decides to teleport in. At the time Roy made the decision to press onward because of Belkar, they hadn't even received the message that Xykon would be coming soon.

[Rodin]

You're right, they didn't know that much at the time Roy made the decision.

The sum of their knowledge:

Tarquin, who is incredibly evil, has teamed up with his incredibly evil son. Each time they've met since entering the canyon has been in direct combat. The only observations Belkar was able to make is "Vampire draining my blood" and "Vampire killing Durkon, and will kill us if we don't leave".

So again, their options are:

1) Run away, leaving the gates in control of Tarquin.

2) Try to fight Tarquin, and almost certainly lose.

3) Press on.

Negotiating doesn't even come into it. You don't assume that the guy with the evil empire getting control of the gate is a good thing. Heck, you don't even assume that he will talk to you. Roy had no reason to believe that Tarquin had anything in mind other than "do whatever is neccessary to secure the gate".

There was a series of bad options, and Roy picked the only one where there was even a possibility of preventing the forces of Evil (whoever they may be) from gaining full control of one of the most powerful things in the world. Slim chance better than none.

[Jay R]

Durkon's growth: a template worth 8 levels. Plus a powerful staff.

Belkar's growth: one (currently polymorphed) Allosaurus.He has also started caring about others (or at least about Bloodfeast and Mr. Scruffy).

Elan's growth: he has learned, from both Tarquin and Julio, that he is not inherently bound by genre conventions. This could turn out to be very important for a bard.

Vaarsuvius's growth: V has learned what the actual affect of familicide was, has been crushed by it, and has risen up again to aid the party once more. The wizard has also used up one of the three times that the IFCC can claim.

Haley: Her hair is back. Also, she has 3 wands.

Blackwing: has learned to start taking initiative, and taking part in the battle. Has a new bauble.

Mr. Scruffy: First kill!

Bloodfeast: has escaped the cage at the coliseum, and has learned to help for friendship's sake, rather than only on command.

Roy: has learned how to use his Intelligence score in combat.

[rbetieh]

Negotiating doesn't even come into it. You don't assume that the guy with the evil empire getting control of the gate is a good thing. Heck, you don't even assume that he will talk to you. Roy had no reason to believe that Tarquin had anything in mind other than "do whatever is neccessary to secure the gate".

There was a series of bad options, and Roy picked the only one where there was even a possibility of preventing the forces of Evil (whoever they may be) from gaining full control of one of the most powerful things in the world. Slim chance better than none.

No, not Full Control. Roy has enough ancillary evidence to reasonably assume that Full Control takes time. Roys original plan is sound. Yes, he chose the only plan that has a possibility of preventing a bad guy from Securing one of the most powerful things in the world, but there is a time gap between Securing and Full Control. Roy can reasonably assume he has the time to make an escape, find the nearest tavern, and tell a bunch of good-aligned adventurers the story of the gates to send them on their way. That is still a higher probability of success, because, as Roy notes the OOTS at that very moment are not prepared to fight a High-Level uber-prepared fighter, 2 Vampire Clerics, 1 Wizard that is on par with his own missing wizard, and a loose cannon that is just clever enough to cause problems.

My issue remains what Roy may have learned or un-learned from his success here. If Roy has just learned to take larger than advisable risks with his own party, then he could very well be the direct cause of some of his party members in the future. Then again, it could be that the OOTS has not succeeded yet because they have not take large enough risks....

[WindStruck]

Actually, Rodin, that's the thing. Now you're making all these assumptions about how Tarquin would react, but my biggest question would have been "Why is he and Malack suddenly teaming up with Nale?"

And if actual thought was put into it, heck, if they tried to determine this from the beginning when they first appeared, it would've been clear Tarquin wasn't simply trying to conquer the world with the gate not something else worse... he was merely screwing around, testing Nale's ability.

[KillianHawkeye]

Elan grew into a more pragmatic hero without losing his core good nature.

Haley no longer has the albatross of her captive father hanging around her neck (pending his escape from the western continent)

V seems to be walking a middle ground between blowing up everything in sight and refusing to use force on principle (e.g. the slaver battle).

Belkar is developing actual sentimental bonds.

Durkon's relationship to the Dwarven Lands is going to be a lot more complicated now.

This makes it sound like Roy Shepard is getting all the party loyalty quests taken care of so that everyone is fully focused on taking down the Collectors Xykon. :smallamused::smallwink:

And maybe that's all it is. Taking care of everyone's personal issues and eliminating distracting backstory conflicts so that the entire team is totally committed to the end game's Final Ultimate Mission of Destiny.

[rbetieh]

Roy can reasonably assume he has the time to make an escape, find the nearest tavern, and tell a bunch of good-aligned adventurers the story of the gates to send them on their way.

I am going to go ahead and retract this point. The comic doesn't agree with me, on a second look.

[Snails]

Admittedly, the spot Roy was in was bad and it seems nothing he could do would end well... but I do think a slightly better alternative than risking his entire team wiping (which could have easily happened on multiple occasions) and destroying yet another gate, he could have tried to actually negotiate with Tarquin on the matter. Because in all honestly, the crazy man wouldn't know what to do with the gate anyway, and he wasn't the type to destroy the whole world.

While retreating was not crazy, your counter-proposal makes no sense. At the time the Gate was up for grabs. To negotiate with Tarquin, you need to offer something. Even temporary control of the Gate is a bargaining chip, that might buy enough time to discuss the threat of the coming super-villain. (Perhaps Tarquin could be persuaded to set a trap.)

[WindStruck]

While retreating was not crazy, your counter-proposal makes no sense. At the time the Gate was up for grabs. To negotiate with Tarquin, you need to offer something. Even temporary control of the Gate is a bargaining chip, that might buy enough time to discuss the threat of the coming super-villain. (Perhaps Tarquin could be persuaded to set a trap.)

Yeah well I guess I would have stopped to try to figure out what the heck was going on at the very first sight of them, rather than randomly changing behavior at that point.

[Kish]

I have to say that simply because things worked out alright, it doesn't mean it was the best decision.

rbetieh made two assertions: that Roy's reasons were bad, and that the outcome was in fact bad. I chose to primarily address the latter assertion.


Admittedly, the spot Roy was in was bad and it seems nothing he could do would end well... but I do think a slightly better alternative than risking his entire team wiping (which could have easily happened on multiple occasions) and destroying yet another gate, he could have tried to actually negotiate with Tarquin on the matter.

What on earth do you think he could have gotten from that that he wouldn't have gotten from simply fleeing?

More importantly for the case you're arguing, what on earth do you think he would have thought he could have gotten from negotiating with someone who he knew to be utterly evil and who--as far as he knew--was now part of the Linear Guild? If you want to talk in terms of Roy knowing less about Tarquin than the audience did, he had no reason to believe Nale wasn't calling the shots. And, frankly, he has had absolutely no reason at any point to believe negotiating with Tarquin would go any better than negotiating with Nale.

[Rodin]

Actually, Rodin, that's the thing. Now you're making all these assumptions about how Tarquin would react, but my biggest question would have been "Why is he and Malack suddenly teaming up with Nale?"

And if actual thought was put into it, heck, if they tried to determine this from the beginning when they first appeared, it would've been clear Tarquin wasn't simply trying to conquer the world with the gate not something else worse... he was merely screwing around, testing Nale's ability.

..How is that even remotely a logical conclusion to bring from "The guy with the Evil Empire has suddenly teamed up with the guy who knows all the information about how the Gates can be used to rule the world?"

In Roy's place, with Roy's knowledge at the time, I would have made exactly the same decision. And that's not meta-knowledge, that's going off my reaction at the time that comic was released. Technically I knew Xykon was coming, but that becomes immaterial if the Linear Guild were to get their hands on the gate anyway.

But all of that is irrelevant.

The solution set for the situation was incredibly small. There was:

1) Concede control of the gate to Tarquin, who's motives are 100% unknown. There's no negotiating here, because Tarquin has them over a barrel - he can dictate terms. It would be a surrender. In no version of this does the Order come out on top - either Tarquin successfully holds the gate from Xykon, or Xykon stomps him and gets it.

2) Flat out run away. Belkar shows the results more eloquently than I.

3) Keep going, and hope they get lucky.

They chose 3.

[Amphiox]

You know, when Roy was having his Heroic BSOD moment, he wasn't in a rational state. The option of ditching it was never in the cards at all. At that moment, the Order was already committed deep inside the pyramid, and the LG with Tarquin was behind them, *between them and the only exit to the pyramid that Roy knew of*. The only way the Order was going to escape to go find some other good adventuring team to take on the mission was to go back and fight their way out THROUGH the LG and Tarquin and Malack. Which would have been suicide.

Continuing on with the mission and going forward while hoping for the best was literally the only viable option they had. Roy just needed a moment to get his emotions under control in order to realize that.

[DeliaP]

Yeah well I guess I would have stopped to try to figure out what the heck was going on at the very first sight of them

Quick check: they should have stopped to have a think when Z was covering them in big blobs of acid or when Tarquin was singlehandedly kicking their collective ass?


rather than randomly changing behavior at that point.

I think at that point, what Roy did was withdraw into the pyramid and to set a very successful ambush. Then after having (if perhaps only temporarily) managed to deflect the LG threat, continue with their existing plan: descend into the pyramid to the gate.

[Snails]

Yeah well I guess I would have stopped to try to figure out what the heck was going on at the very first sight of them, rather than randomly changing behavior at that point.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your point, but that does not make any sense either.

The Order's goal was to prevent the Gate from falling into enemy hands. Clan Draketooth's demise was an unfortunate turn of events that forced a shift in strategy, but it did not change the goal. Roy was acting based on the existing goal.

What you are suggesting is for Roy to change his goal on fly, based on the appearance of Nale. Nale is a known factor that might be working for Xykon or Tarquin or perhaps himself. Roy cannot negotiate with any of those three without a bargaining chip of some kind.

[Havokca]

The reason to have an extended secondary villain arc in a story such as this (among others) is so that the heroes, by defeating the secondary villain, grow/change/learn in such a way that they are capable of defeating the main villain.

What did the Order learn from fighting Tarquin (and Nale, I suppose) that will ultimately help them defeat Xykon? Suggestions?

Lesson One - Don't Let the Villain Determine the Terms of the Conflict

The extended secondary villain arc could also be strictly for the purposes of acquiring something that will help them win the battle.






Such as a DINOSAUR!! =)

[Tom Lehmann]

we can be equally certain that Belkars argument (If you dont press forward, the sacrifices already made are meaningless) is fallacious
This is a bunch of hooey.

To make the argument for retreat and find help, you have to assume that there are a bunch of high level heroes that A) exist; B) OOTS can reach in time; C) OOTS can somehow convince -- without much hard evidence -- that a true danger exists that is best stopped by these heroes going after Xykon and Redcloak; and D) that these high level heroes will actually have a significantly higher chance of stopping Xykon and Redcloak.

D needs to be significantly higher to offset the probability that either B or C doesn't occur.

Now, maybe such heroes exist and maybe hurdles B and C can be overcome. Maybe not. Roy thinks they might exist, but clearly doesn't know who or where they are (or he would suggest Why don't we go get Knight Unstoppable to help us instead of just wondering if finding someone else might be the right course).

You've pointed out that other people are assuming no one exists that can help, but you're assuming that these higher level heros exist, are reachable, can be convinced, and could do better than OOTS (damaged as they were at the time).

Which set of assumptions is correct? I don't know, but Occam's razor (do not multiply entities needlessly) suggests that you may, in fact, be making more assumptions (and more complicated ones) than those arguing that OOTS has to do the job and that the "rational" course is to not make these extra assumptions but instead to press on.

Beyond this narrow decision analysis framework, you also equate acting to "honor sacrifices already made" with the sunk cost fallacy. The sunk cost fallacy is quite real, but it applies to investment decisions.

*Not all decisions are investment decisions*. (I say this as a trained economist who has, in fact, applied decision analysis professionally in situations such as NASA allocating scarce shuttle flights to companies wishing to do business in space.)

The motivation to fight in order to honor fallen comrades is quite real and can often inspire people to greater efforts in combat. (See the battle in which Gustavus Adolphus dies for a historical example.) Mechanically, in D&D,
a GM might well assign a +2 circumstance bonus for those so inspired. To summarily dismiss Belkar's argument as simply a sunk cost fallacy is to ignore many of the real world reasons that people can be inspired to risk their lives in combat.

Further, it also ignores the effects that not fighting on, not honoring a fallen comrade, not persevering, might have on the self-image of the members of OOTS. People have to live with themselves.

In economics, people make decisions to maximize their happiness across *all their preferences* and this includes many non-material things, including their ideals, personal loyalties, and self-regard. To dismiss things that can't be easily measured from your decision calculus in the name of "rationality" is to do a dis-service to the richness and complexity of life and human experience.

[rbetieh]

This is a bunch of hooey.

To make the argument for retreat and find help, you have to assume that there are a bunch of high level heroes that A) exist; B) OOTS can reach in time; C) OOTS can somehow convince -- without much hard evidence -- that a true danger exists that is best stopped by these heroes going after Xykon and Redcloak; and D) that these high level heroes will actually have a significantly higher chance of stopping Xykon and Redcloak.


A) They do, the world is predicated on the existence of PC-class characters going around solving problems for other people. Heroes of even higher level than the OOTS exist/existed (Julio Scoundrel for one, Scribblers for another)

B) Debatable, depends on how much time they actually have. But the guarantee of this world is they are sitting around the nearest tavern right now. Even before Tarquin said as much, Elan went and talked to such a group when he was looking for information on the draketeeth.

C) XP and stuff convinces every Good character to Save the World....Liches and Goblins are known problems in this world so they should believe them rather quickly.

D) At that very moment, any group of heroes with a character that can cast Mass Cure Moderate Wounds has a higher probability of success than Roy, Elan, Haley, and Belkar. Roy says as much, no healer, no chance.




Beyond this narrow decision analysis framework, you also equate acting to "honor sacrifices already made" with the sunk cost fallacy. The sunk cost fallacy is quite real, but it applies to investment decisions.



No Sunk Cost Fallacy is a Gamblers fallacy. Gambling and investing are not the same thing. The notion that a logical fallacy applies to a specific discipline and not across all of logic doesnt make much sense either. Even if I do accept this premise, Roy can be seen as having invested the lives of 6 people in this mission and now has lost 1/6 of his investment...

[Tom Lehmann]

Gambling and investing are not the same thing.
Now, you're just making me laugh!


Roy can be seen as having invested the lives of 6 people in this mission and now has lost 1/6 of his investment...
And the fact that you can't see how wrong this statement is -- makes me want to cry. Sigh.

[Composer99]

A) They do, the world is predicated on the existence of PC-class characters going around solving problems for other people. Heroes of even higher level than the OOTS exist/existed (Julio Scoundrel for one, Scribblers for another)

What in-comic evidence do you have that Julio, or any other PC-type character known to exist and still be alive, is actually higher level than the Order as of strip #881 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html)? At that point they're sitting around levels 14-16 (15-16 in Vaarsuvius' case).

As far as I can see, the only characters we can definitively say are higher-level than the Order at that point are Tarquin et al, Xykon, and Redcloak. IMO we do not have conclusive evidence that there is another group that could take up the torch for the Order on their world.


B) Debatable, depends on how much time they actually have. But the guarantee of this world is they are sitting around the nearest tavern right now. Even before Tarquin said as much, Elan went and talked to such a group when he was looking for information on the draketeeth.

Other than Tarquin's assumption of his own correctness (and in light of how incorrect many of his assumptions have just been shown to be), what evidence do you have that he is correct? Further, there is no evidence that the band in #710 is anything like as high level as the Order.


C) XP and stuff convinces every Good character to Save the World....Liches and Goblins are known problems in this world so they should believe them rather quickly.

In the very same strip you cite to support your argument, Belkar notes:
:belkar: So you're going to ***** out now and "sound the alarm?" Sure, whatever. I mean, that bell got rung when a billion hobgoblins stomped up and down on Hinjo's face. I don't hear the cavalry yet.

The troubles Hinjo has faced getting international support, and indeed the international recognition that Gobbotopia has now received, suggest that there are plenty of Good-aligned characters (for not everyone living in, say, Cliffport, to say nothing of everywhere else in the world can be Neutral- or Evil-aligned) who are not being convinced by "XP and stuff" to join the struggle against Redcloak.


D) At that very moment, any group of heroes with a character that can cast Mass Cure Moderate Wounds has a higher probability of success than Roy, Elan, Haley, and Belkar. Roy says as much, no healer, no chance.


That may be, but as of #881 no such group was present in the pyramid, and Roy's opinion was that they could have as little as a few hours before Xykon arrived, leaving the Order with insufficient time to find one (especially since they lost their magic carpet and some of the mobility Durkon provided).


No Sunk Cost Fallacy is a Gamblers fallacy. Gambling and investing are not the same thing. The notion that a logical fallacy applies to a specific discipline and not across all of logic doesnt make much sense either. Even if I do accept this premise, Roy can be seen as having invested the lives of 6 people in this mission and now has lost 1/6 of his investment...

Oh, really? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs)

[zimmerwald1915]

What in-comic evidence do you have that Julio, or any other PC-type character known to exist and still be alive, is actually higher level than the Order as of strip #881 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html)? At that point they're sitting around levels 14-16 (15-16 in Vaarsuvius' case).
Well, there's the duo from On the Origin of PCs that found storming the gates of Hell a humdrum way to spend a weekend, but that's not exactly in-comic evidence :smallbiggrin:


(for not everyone living in, say, Cliffport, to say nothing of everywhere else in the world can be Neutral- or Evil-aligned)
Sure they can. But it doesn't actually matter; half the Order is either Neutral or Evil at this point, and Evil ain't exactly one big happy family.

[WindStruck]

Maybe I am misunderstanding your point, but that does not make any sense either.

The Order's goal was to prevent the Gate from falling into enemy hands. Clan Draketooth's demise was an unfortunate turn of events that forced a shift in strategy, but it did not change the goal. Roy was acting based on the existing goal.

What you are suggesting is for Roy to change his goal on fly, based on the appearance of Nale. Nale is a known factor that might be working for Xykon or Tarquin or perhaps himself. Roy cannot negotiate with any of those three without a bargaining chip of some kind.

Because Roy knew the not-really-thog guy was actually Tarquin... and the cleric that blasted them with flamestrike was Malack.

The goal was to keep the gate out of enemy hands, but then my question would've been... "Wait, since when was Tarquin the enemy? Wasn't he just helping me on this mission three hours ago? Weren't they all just working together trying to catch Nale?" It makes no sense.

And so, a major case to make in what everyone else assumes to be an ill-conceived bid for diplomacy would be to make it clear how the safety of the gates were important to the everyone including Tarquin, that he probably couldn't do anything with them anyway, and Nale's a four-flushing scumbag that probably lied to him.

[AgentofHellfire]

Because Roy knew the not-really-thog guy was actually Tarquin... and the cleric that blasted them with flamestrike was Malack.

The goal was to keep the gate out of enemy hands, but then my question would've been... "Wait, since when was Tarquin the enemy? Wasn't he just helping me on this mission three hours ago? Weren't they all just working together trying to catch Nale?" It makes no sense.

And so, a major case to make in what everyone else assumes to be an ill-conceived bid for diplomacy would be to make it clear how the safety of the gates were important to the everyone including Tarquin, that he probably couldn't do anything with them anyway, and Nale's a four-flushing scumbag that probably lied to him.


Except, given that Tarquin basically just switched sides without telling the Order, and indeed while actively attempting to conceal that from the Order. Given that his evil was just as widely known, I'm pretty sure the Order saw him as a scumbag much in the way Nale would be, and highly likely to lie to them.

[Kish]

Because Roy knew the not-really-thog guy was actually Tarquin... and the cleric that blasted them with flamestrike was Malack.

The goal was to keep the gate out of enemy hands, but then my question would've been... "Wait, since when was Tarquin the enemy? Wasn't he just helping me on this mission three hours ago? Weren't they all just working together trying to catch Nale?" It makes no sense.
That hinges on an assumption that Roy was confused in a way that I don't think you can support. Elan seemed to be thrown by the way Tarquin was simultaneously horrible and being helpful; Roy showed no sign of ever losing sight of the fact that Tarquin was an enemy, and when Nale wanted to keep Tarquin out of the fight altogether, that was a reason to temporarily go along...with Nale.

[Amphiox]

Well, there's the duo from On the Origin of PCs that found storming the gates of Hell a humdrum way to spend a weekend, but that's not exactly in-comic evidence :smallbiggrin:


Sure they can. But it doesn't actually matter; half the Order is ether Neutral or Evil at this point, and Evil ain't exactly one big happy family.

How high a level does a PC need to be to storm the gates of hell in D&D anyways? We saw a decidedly non-epic evil adventuring party essentially storm the gates of heaven, after all (though they got TPK'ed...)

[zimmerwald1915]

How high a level does a PC need to be to storm the gates of hell in D&D anyways? We saw a decidedly non-epic evil adventuring party essentially storm the gates of heaven, after all (though they got TPK'ed...)
The lowest-level a character can get there under their own power (i.e., not by dying and being damned, or by using a portal, or by using a scroll, or by hiring a "taxi," etc.) is level 9, when Clerics can prepare plane shift. As you point out, surviving the experience and returning to tell the tale probably requires a higher level.

[Snails]

The goal was to keep the gate out of enemy hands, but then my question would've been... "Wait, since when was Tarquin the enemy? Wasn't he just helping me on this mission three hours ago? Weren't they all just working together trying to catch Nale?" It makes no sense.

They were enemies since the moment Roy and Belkar were thrown into jail to fight to the death in the arena for a minor legal scrape, of course.

Roy was savvy enough to keep his eye on the big picture and not provoke open hostilities, when doing so did not serve the Quest. His initial reason was that Tarquin was expected to hand Elan useful information on a silver platter, so his first tactic was no more than keep a low profile.

Roy did not actually need to see captured escapees lit on fire to know exactly what kind of man Tarquin was; Roy could just look around and see how these death sentences were being inflicted on mostly non-hardened criminals. Lawful Good (not Lawful Stupid), remember?