PDA

View Full Version : Critique my gish (3.5)



purpenflurb
2014-01-05, 03:06 PM
Building this for my girlfriend in an upcoming campaign, here is what I have...
bard + spirit lion totem barbarian 1 (gestalt allowed first level)/bard 3/crusader 1/jade phoenix mage 4 (houserule allows for bypassing the concentration entry requirement)/sublime chord 2/jade phoenix mage 6

Feats thus far are...
1: Weapon finesse
1 (human): TWF, house-ruled to allow full iterative attacks with the off-hand
1 (flaw): skill focus (concentration) (allows early entry to jade phoenix mage, to be swapped out at a later date)
3: Snowflake wardance
6: Rapid metamagic
9: Still spell
12: ?
15: ?
18: ?

The general idea is charging into combat with a full attack, using snowflake wardance and the JPM quickening strike. Particularly focusing on charisma/dex, with very little invested into strength. The last three levels are planned to be 2 of something that advances casting and 1 of crusader to pick up 8th level maneuvers.

The basic concept of TWF/caster is pretty set in stone at this point, I am mostly looking for ideas to fill the missing feats and any tweaks I could make to make the build better. Any additional charisma synergies that could be shoved in without moving things around too much would be particularly appreciated.

DarkSonic1337
2014-01-05, 04:30 PM
Do note that divine metamagic explicitly only works with Divine Spells, while sublime chord is an arcane caster.

Craft (Cheese)
2014-01-05, 05:02 PM
You can't cast spells with somatic components unless you have at least one free hand. Since she's TWFing this is a huge problem, and I'm not sure what to do about it.

It's a shame JPM doesn't advance bardic music (and doesn't count for Song of the White Raven) because otherwise she could take great advantage of Dragonfire Inspiration + Song of the Heart + Words of Creation.

I'd suggest fitting in a level of cloistered cleric (replacing that level of Sacred Exorcist) and taking Alternative Sourced Spell along with Arcane Preparation since the feat explicitly only works with prepared spells, if you want her to be able to use DMM: Quicken. Do nightsticks stack in your game? Take Travel as one of your CC domains so you can trade it for Travel Devotion. Ask your DM about houseruling Alternative Sourced Spell to work with spontaneous spells too, because arcane preparation is an otherwise worthless feat tax for her.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-01-05, 05:28 PM
I don't think this build is going to work the way you think it's going to work. Arcane Wrath from JPM takes a swift action to activate, the same type of action as a quickened spell. Also note that it only benefits a single attack or martial strike, not every swing you make on a full attack. Someone already stated that post-errata Divine Metamagic cannot be used with arcane spells. On top of that, any modern gish will want to use their swift action on an (Extended) Wraithstrike or to activate the Minor Shapeshift reserve feat for temporary HP. Plus you're only getting 8th level spells from Sublime Chord, whereas most respectable gish builds will have 9th level spells by 20th level. Arcane casting just doesn't have much that can help a TWF character, you would be better off making a DFI Bard build over a gish if you insist on TWF.

Include this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) to get around the normally limited number of spells/day.

A gish shouldn't need to worry about physical stats at all, since Polymorph and Draconic Polymorph make your physical stats irrelevant. You can even cast Bite of the Werebear on top of that to have Str 55 in War Troll form. That's a +22 ability modifier, for +33 damage tow-handed. If you two-handed Power Attack for your full BAB (which should be at least 16) with Leap Attack and Armbands of Might, you'll get an extra +68 damage. Use (Persistent) Wraithstrike so you always hit, and Arcane Strike in CW is better than Arcane Wrath from JPM.

You're just trying to make this build do too much. You could go with a more standard Cha-based gish build like Paladin (of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)) 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8. Use Illumian for the race with the Naenhoon runeword to be able to spend turn undead uses to add metamagic to two spells each day, but use Persistent Spell instead of Quicken Spell. Get Arcane Preparation to be able to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor, which gives a +13 armor bonus with Abjurant Champion. Use Naenhoon to persist Shield and Wraithstrike at first, and later on use it with Draconic Polymorph and Bite of the Werebear and use regular spell slots to cast the other two persistent.

If you have to use TWF, which is still not as good as 2H even with the houserules, go Savage Bard 8/ Dragonblood Sorcerer 1/ Dragon Devotee 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Incantatrix 3/ Abjurant Champion 5. Use Silverbrow Human from Dragon Magic, get Melodic Casting, Dragonfire Inspiration, trade your Suggestion song for Song of the Heart, get Words of Creation, and use a Badge of Valor plus the spell Inspirational Boost. That Dragonblood Sorcerer level gives you Draconic Heritage, pick Battle Dragon or another variety that uses sonic for the energy type. Get the Rapid Metamagic ACF from Sorcerer as well, with a Lesser Rod of Quicken to cast Creaking Cacophony so opponents have vulnerability to sonic damage. With all of that you'll be adding +9d6 sonic damage to everyone's attacks, including all of your attacks with TWF, and you can keep a single inspire courage going all day long even when casting spells thanks to Melodic Casting.

Dread_Head
2014-01-05, 06:58 PM
Also if your first levels gestalt bard / barbarian then you only have 9 levels before entering SC and you need 10 to get the skill ranks.

You should probably stick some Abjurant Champion in there for some of your last few levels for the assorted goodies it gives you.

As has been pointed out you have far too many things to do in your limited swift actions and DMM: Quicken won't work for your arcane spells so maybe pick up Divine Might instead to add your Charisma to damage. Alternatively if your using home brew see if your DM will let you use an arcane version of Ruby Knight Vindicator for the tasty tasty extra swift actions?

Edit: I assume you're using TWF so you can take advantage of Snowflake Wardance? It's a bit of a trap really as with spells and IC you don't really need the bonus to hit and the extra damage from THF is better.
Also be aware that if you go the route of boosting IC then it eats into your swift actions as well since Badge of Valor and Inspirational Boost will require your first two swift actions of the combat.

Gamereaper
2014-01-05, 07:10 PM
If you want a simple yet effective gish build, I would suggest a Battle Sorcerer that prestiges into an Abjurant Champion. No fancy feats needed.

At 20th level:
15D8 + 5D10 For HP
16/11/6/1 BAB (-4 off of fighter's BAB)
20th level CL

Throw in a couple awesome feats for taste and a couple flaws.
Might I suggest weapon finesse with an adamantium Keen Rapier?

15-20 Crit, ignore hardness and DR from constructs immune to magic.

For more weapon abuse, see if getting a serrated edge (+1 crit threat range) on the rapier and THEN adding Keen to it for a 13-20, so 40% of the time is autohit.

They also have light armor proficiency and at least 1 chosen martial weapon profiency, if not all martial weapons.

purpenflurb
2014-01-05, 11:25 PM
The skill ranks to get into the class is bypassed by a houserule that skill focus actually counts as ranks added, and there was no intention of ever using arcane wrath, the biggest draws of JPM are maneuver progression, the stance, and the quickening/empowering strikes. I did forget about the somatic components and only using divine magic for sacred exorcist... can pretty easily drop that though. But as I said, the idea of TWF bard/sublime chord/jpm and snowflake wardance is pretty set in stone. Also polymorph is not accessible.

Rapid metamagic and still spell in place of quicken and DMM quicken would fix the somatic component problem... But this party isn't very high op, so, casting a couple buffs and charging should be a fairly effective strategy. Is there any way to get around casting spells while holding weapons?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-01-05, 11:39 PM
There's a feat in Complete Mage called Somatic Weaponry.

purpenflurb
2014-01-06, 12:01 AM
Also, looking at some of the other comments. There is an artificer in the party, so I think a good runestaff is probably manageable without using the feat. I can definitely see the advantage of the feat, I just don't see her wanting to add that complication (she will probably be happy to see sacred exorcist done away with). Also, the DM has ruled that a DC 20 perform (Dance) check will let her cast spells with somatic components. Also, from earlier comments, I am guessing throwing in 2 levels of abjurant champion would be a good plan? Given as caster level is easily fixed with practiced spellcaster (Swapping out skill focus (concentration) for it later).