Animals for Wild Shape

[Kesnit]

I keep seeing people say that a Druid's WS is amazing since you get the abilities of the creature. However, I don't see it. The ability specifically says you can WS into an "animal." Sure, bears are nice for a while, but eventually, bears just aren't effective.

I'm currently running a Rogue 2/Druid 5/Daggerspell Shaper 4, so I can WS into a Tiny, Small, Medium, or Large animal. The only reason my melee attacks actually do anything is that DSS adds the weapon's benefits to natural attacks, and I put Wilding Clasps on my STR belt and DEX gloves. (I've been using Eagle and Bear, just because other animals have base physical stats worse than mine. Crocodile would also probably be effective, but I haven't had a chance to use it yet.)

Am I missing something? Does "animal" not mean "animal?"

[Coidzor]

I'm confused as to what you're actually asking here. :smallconfused:

What do you believe you get when you wildshape into an animal form?

[eggynack]

Wild shape forms are significantly more effective for melee purposes if your base physical stats are low, which is a common thing on druids. You also have access to a good number of druid buffs, like bite of the were X. Wild shape provides a druid with a number of abilities that are accessible all day, including just about every movement mode in existence, and sight modes when you add on enhance wild shape. You may want to consider some of the splat book's animals, like the fleshraker dinosaur (MM III, 40), and the desmodu hunting bat (MM II, 65). Ditching three caster levels was also a not-good idea, because caster levels are awesome.

Edit: Also that thing that Coidzor said. Really, all I can do is spout random wild shape platitudes in response to a query of this type. What are you seeking to gain out of wild shape? You can get some pretty good stuff, especially if you pick up a feat or two. Wild shape makes you into a thing that's pretty good at melee, and that's not as useful if you're already pretty good at melee. You do get a lot of combat maneuver access on short notice though.

[PinkysBrain]

As written the daggerspell shaper is broken ... I'm going to assume your DM lets your shaper levels stack with druid for the HD of animals you can change into, because otherwise the class is too broken to contemplate playing.

In that case you can change into a Dire Lion ... I don't think you have base strength 25, do you?

Any way, just read the guides, there's some cheese you can pull (for instance, you don't need wilding clasps, you can combine unarmed strikes with natural weapons, you can stack size increases on natural weapons to high heaven, etc).

PS. in the olden days you got the animal type, which allowed you to use stuff like animal growth ... but that's gone.

[Kesnit]

Wild shape forms are significantly more effective for melee purposes if your base physical stats are low, which is a common thing on druids.

Maybe that's part of my problem. My base stats are STR 14, DEX 18, CON 16. Most of the animals I was seeing have physicals worse than mind. (Taking a DEX hit, even if I gain STR, is a bad thing since I use Weapon Finesse and need the AC.)


You also have access to a good number of druid buffs, like bite of the were X.

Which don't do anything for me since I already have +6 items on STR, DEX, CON, and WIS, and can only cast up to 4th level spells.


Wild shape provides a druid with a number of abilities that are accessible all day, including just about every movement mode in existence,

I'm using Eagle form for flight. But when it comes to combat, I feel like I'm better off shifting back to human. I put Wilding clasps on everything because at least that way, I can keep my bonuses when I WS. Without them, I was useless.


You may want to consider some of the splat book's animals, like the fleshraker dinosaur (MM III, 40), and the desmodu hunting bat (MM II, 65).

Thanks. That's the kind of thing I was looking for. I haven't had a chance to go swimming in the other MM's, so was stuck with the ones in MM1, which are crappy.


Ditching three caster levels was also a not-good idea, because caster levels are awesome.

Crazy as it sounds, I'm actually the second-most optimized player in my group. (First is the Warlock who stacked everything she could find into CHA and ended up with CHA 36 at ECL 10.)


What are you seeking to gain out of wild shape?

A reason to stay in WS for more than fly speed. I keep reading that WS is awesome, but the forms always feel underwhelming, compared to my human form.


You can get some pretty good stuff, especially if you pick up a feat or two.

Yeah, feats have been a problem. Until LVL 9, I didn't really have an option. TWF and WF (dagger) are required for the PrC. Weapon Finesse made sense since I was making a Rogue-ish character. Natural Spell is pretty much a requirement. (At LVL 9, I picked up combat casting.)

I'm about to hit LVL 12, so am starting to look to see what feat I'll take there.


Wild shape makes you into a thing that's pretty good at melee, and that's not as useful if you're already pretty good at melee.

That makes sense.


As written the daggerspell shaper is broken ... I'm going to assume your DM lets your shaper levels stack with druid for the HD of animals you can change into, because otherwise the class is too broken to contemplate playing.

*chuckle* I didn't even realize that was an issue. I just assumed that was the case, the the DM never questioned it.


In that case you can change into a Dire Lion ... I don't think you have base strength 25, do you?

I just picked up the ability to WS into Large creatures in today's session. Until then, I was stuck with Tiny, Small, and Medium. Now that you mention it, Dire animals do open up some new options. (The Dire animals I had access to before were crappy.)

[eggynack]

I'm using Eagle form for flight. But when it comes to combat, I feel like I'm better off shifting back to human. I put Wilding clasps on everything because at least that way, I can keep my bonuses when I WS. Without them, I was useless.
I'd swap that out for desmodu hunting bat, as I noted. Great defenses on that thing, as well as a high initiative mod, and good maneuverability. Good is pretty great, because it grants hover.



Thanks. That's the kind of thing I was looking for. I haven't had a chance to go swimming in the other MM's, so was stuck with the ones in MM1, which are crappy.
It's definitely one of the better options, with a bunch of combat maneuvers, a high AC, and poison for venomfire purposes.


Crazy as it sounds, I'm actually the second-most optimized player in my group. (First is the Warlock who stacked everything she could find into CHA and ended up with CHA 36 at ECL 10.)

Druids are pretty awesome like that. You can lose quite a bit and still be super powerful.


A reason to stay in WS for more than fly speed. I keep reading that WS is awesome, but the forms always feel underwhelming, compared to my human form.
Well, there're other movement modes besides flight speed, like swimming and burrowing, so those can be nice. Various forms also let you become something like a specialist in different styles of combat, like grappling, tripping, and pouncing. The stat change is also pretty crazy when you're starting out with 8 strength. Consider tossing enhance wild shape on a desmodu hunting bat, and pick up 120 foot blindsight. There's some other craziness too, like becoming a dire tortoise (Sand, 151) for the ridiculous lightning strike ability, or a burrow root (MM V, 14) for assorted oddness.



Yeah, feats have been a problem. Until LVL 9, I didn't really have an option. TWF and WF (dagger) are required for the PrC. Weapon Finesse made sense since I was making a Rogue-ish character. Natural Spell is pretty much a requirement. (At LVL 9, I picked up combat casting.)

I'm about to hit LVL 12, so am starting to look to see what feat I'll take there.
The best wild shape feats are probably dragon wild shape (Draconomicon, 105), which has a bunch of utility options that I haven't looked into extensively, frozen wild shape (Frost, 48), which lets you become a cryohydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm#cryohydra), though only when you get huge forms, and exalted wild shape (BoED, 42), which grants access to the ever-crazy blink dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/blinkDog.htm) form, along with the Ex abilities of all of your animal forms. Fun stuff. I'm partial to exalted wild shape, but the other stuff is good too.


That makes sense.
Indeed. Wild shape is all about replacement effects, and pre-set combat forms. Great on a druid who wants to enter combat every so often, and a bit less great on a fellow who's already dedicated to melee. Certainly not bad though. I'd consider picking up a mantle of the beast (CC, 140), which lets you swift action wild shape on the cheap. Swapping combat styles on the fly is good, and swapping bigger things is even better, if you're getting alternate forms.

[CrazyYanmega]

If you want lots of Dex, try for Legendary Eagle (DEX 30) when you hit 12 HD shapes, or try Forest Sloth (STR 25, DEX 20) when you hit 14 HD.

You know, when I was starting out I was a bit like you. I played druids, but they never lasted longer than 1-2 sessions, and I didn't know why everyone seemed to think they were so powerful. I still loved them, if only for the connection to nature.

Fast forward to mid-2013, where I decided to join a group of friends for the beginning of an online DnD 3.5 campaign. Except for me, we were all brand new to the game, and I was so inexperienced that I was at the same level. After losing characters so many times in the past, suffering several near misses, and feeling inadequate compared to the TWF Ranger, I decided that a little optimization was in order. I cruised the 'net for some druid tips... and found THIS. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0)

Power. Unimaginable power. I had apparently been suffering at the hands of killer DMs for years. With this, I could not only add to the team, but become the star of the battlefield that I always wanted.

[PraxisVetli]

Can Druids Wild Shape into Templated animals?
Because what's stopping you from becoming a Dungeonbred Magebred Warbeast Giant Crocodile?
bonus points if you get your DM to count a Giant Croc as a Dire Croc to add Horrid.
How's 32 Str, 14 Dex and 29 Con sound?
Possible 40 speed and +25 to grapple, after Improved Grab biting for 3d8+11+2d6 acid.
just saiyin.

[Vhaidara]

Templates are specifically banned by alternate form.

[WhamBamSam]

The best wild shape feats are probably dragon wild shape (Draconomicon, 105), which has a bunch of utility options that I haven't looked into extensively, frozen wild shape (Frost, 48), which lets you become a cryohydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm#cryohydra), though only when you get huge forms, and exalted wild shape (BoED, 42), which grants access to the ever-crazy blink dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/blinkDog.htm) form, along with the Ex abilities of all of your animal forms. Fun stuff. I'm partial to exalted wild shape, but the other stuff is good too.I can help! You get all (Ex) and (Su) abilities, but are limited to small and medium size, which puts something of a damper on things as there are some Tiny and Large dragons that would be useful.

All dragons have 60ft Blindsense and 120ft Darkvision. Not as good as the Desmodu Hunting Bat, but pretty good.

Mercury Dragon for a 250ft (good) or 200ft (perfect) fly speed.

Steel Dragon gets you alternate form, which means you can effectively pull off humanoid wildshaping as well. It also gives SR which is on the mediocre side, but is better against low level spells. It's still Medium sized up to Young Adult age (16 HD), so you can get a kind of crappy Frightful Presence.

Brown Dragons have a good burrow speed and 500ft tremorsense.

Mist Dragons have gaseous form.

White Dragons have all four movement modes plus Icewalking.

Rust Dragons can destroy metal stuff with their bite.

Shadow Dragons are good for hiding in shadows.

Fang Dragons deal Con drain with their bite and you get a free trip attack after dealing damage with their claws. Shame that you can't get above medium size to trip more effectively.

Deep Dragons have (Su) True Seeing. They also have a (Su) ability to change shape into a serpantine form (can slither through tunnels as if one size category smaller) or a humanoid form.

You explicitly don't get spellcasting per the feat, but Incarnum Dragon might get you an essentia pool and some meldshaping ability off the Soulborn list. Same ambiguity as with spellcasting gained through Planar Shepherd Wildshaping.

You can also pick up breath weapons and energy immunities for all occasions. Immunites go without saying, but a few breath weapon highlights are the Sapphire Dragon, for sonic damage and panic, the Cobalt Dragon, for force damage and the target being bull-rushed with a check equal to the damage dealt, the Steel Dragon for acid damage and Con damage, the Incarnum Dragon for what seems to be untyped damage and essentia drain, the Shadow Dragon for negative levels, the Styx Dragon for Int damage, Chromium Dragon for Dex damage, and all the secondary status effect breath weapons that metallic dragons get. Also, if you can spare a feat on this sort of thing (admittedly it's probably suboptimal to do so), Quicken Breath was never errata'd from a free action to a swift one as far as I know.

[eggynack]

Nifty stuff
That is some stuff that is very nifty. Now to transform it over a reasonable length of time into handbook meat. Delicious handbook meat.

[WhamBamSam]

That is some stuff that is very nifty. Now to transform it over a reasonable length of time into handbook meat. Delicious handbook meat.Glad to help. While I'm at it, here's some stuff about Gem Dragons I forgot about.

All Gem Dragons have (Su) Planar Travel between the Inner Planes and the Material.

The Sapphire Dragon has an (Su) ability to sense teleportation/psychoportation at a range of 100ft+caster level of the spell/power.

In addition to the Sapphire Dragon's sonic+panic breath weapon which I mentioned, the Amethyst Dragon has a force damage breath weapon which can deal non-lethal damage, the Emerald Dragon has one dealing sonic damage and causing deafness, and the Topaz Dragon has a breath of dehydration, which might be untyped damage by RAW, and can evaporate water.

You might also be able to get some very low level Psionic powers off of some of them, though none of them get above ML 3 before growing to large size.

[eggynack]

Those are also rather nifty. It's a quite ridiculous quantity of forms, though doing a lengthy assessment of each one is likely unnecessary. For now though, speedy note taking. Also, it looks like you can cast spells from the gaseous form of a mist dragon, so that's a pretty crazy thing. I'd probably place this as the top wild shape feat, followed by exalted, and then frozen. Frozen just has this horrible positioning, struggling against the might of dire tortoise form.

[Coidzor]

WhamBamSam: Sweet. Thank you very much for that.

[WhamBamSam]

Those are also rather nifty. It's a quite ridiculous quantity of forms, though doing a lengthy assessment of each one is likely unnecessary. For now though, speedy note taking.Probably. I think I got most of the interesting non-breath weapon/immunity abilities covered, though I've been sticking mostly with True Dragons, so there might be some Lesser Dragon stuff I missed.

One more nifty thing: Tartarian Dragons have always on (Su) Freedom of Movement.

Beyond that it's mostly just a quick skim for breath and immunity types.


Also, it looks like you can cast spells from the gaseous form of a mist dragon, so that's a pretty crazy thing.Wow, so you can.


I'd probably place this as the top wild shape feat, followed by exalted, and then frozen. Frozen just has this horrible positioning, struggling against the might of dire tortoise form.Yeah. The extra exalted forms and (Ex)/(Su) abilities from animals are great, but there are just so many dragons to choose from. And yes. All hail the dire tortoise.

[PraxisVetli]

Templates are specifically banned by alternate form.

That blows.

[WhamBamSam]

That blows.It keeps Wildshape reigned in to a level which is only mildly insane. Apart from things like that template stack Crocodile you posted, it would mean that pretty much any living creature up to Large size would be a viable candidate for Dragon Wild Shape via the Half-Dragon template and Dungeonbred. That means that there's chicanery by which you could be something like a Dungeonbred Half-Dragon Living Twinned Repeat Disjunction* at level 12. Even Druids should have some limitations.

*And yes, it's possible to make a Living Disjunction with a CL low enough for it to only be Large. A Dragon Ur Priest can add it to his spell list with the auto-qualification Singer of Concordance 2 dip for the Magic Domain added to his spell list and need not have a CL higher than 9. You can similarly keep a Sublime Chord's CL down by dipping a into some arcane spellcasting class before entering, and choosing to add the dip when determining your CL rather than the class casting the 3rds for the entry prereq. You can probably also just cast it at a lower CL from a standard Sublime Chord, since you only need 9 Sublime Chord levels to meet the spell's minimum requirement.

Living Spells are created by some unknown means, but if we handwave that bit, it's actually rather trivial for a single mid level character to produce a CL 12 Dungeonbred Half-Dragon Living Twinned Repeat Disjunction. Why-why the Dragonwrought Kobold Monk 2/Duskblade 3/Ur-Priest 7/Singer of Concordance 2 can Chaos Shuffle and has enough bonus feats from Monk and Duskblade to make sure that he'll be able to DMM both Repeat Spell and Twin Spell, with turn attempts to spare. After creating the CL12 Living Twinned Repeat Disjunction he falls in love with his creation, or maybe just wants to mock Io and the rest of the gods just a little bit more and sires a Half-Dragon Living Twinned Repeat Disjunction, which, raised within the confines of his tiny kobold sized laboratory, ends up stunted and with the Dungeonbred template.


WhamBamSam: Sweet. Thank you very much for that.You're welcome. Glad to help.:smallsmile:

I'm derailing the ever-loving crap out of this thread though. It was about Animals for Wild Shape, then I made it about Dragons for Wild Shape, and now this post went off the rails into some kobold's unhealthy love affair with mad science magic. I should go to bed.