Druid/Master of Many Forms build help.

[Metahuman1]

So, long story short, building a combat heavy druid, like the look of the master of many forms PrC, but given that I've got a fairly inept rest of the party that right now are getting by on a lot of DM fiat, I think I'm gonna need the casting to keep progressing to keep them boosted up enough to actually get to do cool stuff.

So I come to the Playground with a question, is there a way to get druid casting to progress as I take levels in Master of Many Forms?

[SimonMoon6]

Go for Planar Shepherd instead?

[Turk Mannion]

Short answer...no, not really. You sort of have to choose.

I am playing at Druid 9/MMF 2, soon to be MMF 3. I took the druid levels to where I could get some really strong buff spells, then my emphasis turned to the MMF side, where I could go cave troll, and soon, war troll. However, from there, I will turn back to druid levels to keep the spell casting progression moving along.

[Metahuman1]

Go for Planar Shepherd instead?

Isn't that the PrC built around "hey, I'll take ten turns, you take one, then I'll take ten more turns, then you take one, then I'll take ten more turns."?

[Karnith]

Isn't that the PrC built around "hey, I'll take ten turns, you take one, then I'll take ten more turns, then you take one, then I'll take ten more turns."?
Nah, Planar Shepherd is all about the absurd Wild Shape shenanigans; you get to Wild Shape into Magical Beasts, Elementals, and Outsiders native to a plane of your choice. You can take templated Magical Beast forms (e.g. Fiendish animals), and you get the Extraordinary, Supernatural, and Spell-Like Abilities of the any Elemental or Outsider forms that you assume.

Picking Dal Quor as your attuned plane and getting Flowing Time for your party is just icing on the cake.

[Metahuman1]

Huh, what book is Planar Shepard in?

And how close can Planar Shepard be gotten to (Druid/Master of Many Forms, except you didn't have to take a massive nerf to your casting to get it.)?

[Karnith]

Huh, what book is Planar Shepard in?It's in Faiths of Eberron.


And how close can Planar Shepard be gotten to (Druid/Master of Many Forms, except you didn't have to take a massive nerf to your casting to get it.)?
Planar Shepherd won't get you all of the different creature types that MoMF gets you by default; it only opens up Magical Beasts, Outsiders, and Elementals native to your attuned plane. It does fully progress any casting, Wild Shape, and Animal Companion abilities that you might have, though, which generally makes it a much better choice.

If you're set on being a master shape-changer, you can get Wild Shape for some other creature types via feats (e.g. Dragon Wild Shape, Aberration Wild Shape, etc.) on top of the Planar Shepherd stuff, and eventually you'll be able to use the Alternate Form, Change Shape, etc. abilities of Outsiders that you Wild Shape into.

[Metahuman1]

Huh, I'll have to see if anyone in my gaming circle has a copy of Faiths of Eberron.

Yeah, though I wish Master of Many Forms didn't loose it's casting (I could live with no animal companion.) I'll probably just snag Planar Shepard and load up on a few Wild Shape feats.

Edit:

What would a good feat path be to try and snag as many of the types opened up by Master of Many forms as possible?

[Pesimismrocks]

Edit:

What would a good feat path be to try and snag as many of the types opened up by Master of Many forms as possible?

There aren't any of these barring epic feats
Edit: actually, even with epic feats most are unobtainable

[Metahuman1]

Um, Draconic Wildshape and Abberrant Wild Shape are epic?

Serious question, Druid, not generally my favorite class but I'm doing it cause I think I can make it work best for keeping the rest of the party alive and not stinking at stuff there's suppose to be good at.

I expect I'll have to loose out on a couple of things, I just wanted as many options on the list as could be snagged.

[Karnith]

There aren't any of these barring epic feats
Edit: actually, even with epic feats most are unobtainable
Neither Dragon Wild Shape nor Aberration Wild Shape are epic feats. The former is attainable at level 12 (Prereqs: Knowledge (Nature) 15 ranks, Wis 19, Wild Shape), and the latter at level 6 (Prereqs: Aberration Blood, Wild Shape), though you should probably take Natural Spell at that level instead. Frozen Wild Shape (Prereqs: Wild Shape and Base Fort bonus +6) and Exalted Wild Shape (Prereqs: Wild Shape, "wild shaping class level 8") can both open up some Magical Beast forms that you may not get from your attuned Plane. Planar Shepherd can open up Vermin (via their Celestial/Fiendish/whatever counterparts, which become Magical Beasts), Elementals, and Outsiders, with some Outsiders giving you the ability to use Alternate Form/Change Shape/etc. to get additional forms.

These net you Animal, Vermin (effectively), Magical Beast, Elemental, Outsider, Dragon (limited based on size), and Aberration Wild Shape forms. There may also be some other feats that open up additional types.

[Metahuman1]

What would those other feats be? Normally this isn't my favorite class so I have to ask these questions.

I wouldn't be as worried if the party wasn't as woefully under optimized, but they are so I am. Several of them have expressed dissatisfaction with there build out, and the DM is gonna let them rebuild when the story would deem it appropriate. It's just a matter of living that long, which is desirable cause while the mechanics aren't there the fluff/personality for the characters is wonderful so there worth the work to save them.

[Red Fel]

If you want a PrC that progresses Wild Shape while also progressing spellcasting, consider Moonspeaker. It's exclusive to the Shifter race, but does something that makes Shifters viable - specifically, it allows you to treat metamagic, item creation and wild feats as shifter feats for purposes of determining the number and duration of your shifts/day. It also allows you to Wild Shape as a Druid of your Druid + Moonspeaker -4 level. Finally, it advances spellcasting by 10/10 levels. Finally, you get energy resistance/immunity and a huge boost to summoning spells.

It won't give you as much Wild Shape variety as MoMF, or the gamebreaking powers of Planar Shepherd, but you'll be sitting pretty with Wild Shape and Shifting, plus full Druid casting, plus a truly extensive list of summons.

[bekeleven]

Can I just comment that if you think Druid 5/MoMF 10 is a weak build, I strongly disagree with you.

Druid 5/MoMF 10 is Tier 2, and a stronger tier 2 than summoning binders. Just because it's not tier 1 like Druid or tier 0 like Planar Shepard, don't discount its power.

[Metahuman1]

Point of clarification: I didn't say it was a weak build. I said I needed stronger cause I'm trying to keep a woefully under optimized party alive long enough to rebuild, which out of about 6 PC's I know for sure 2 of them fully plan on doing and the rest are on the fence on the matter.

The world were in is a lot higher op then I expected when I joined and was initially told the overall builds on the party. The DM has actually talked to the party and apologized and hence offered the up coming option to rebuild.

I just don't want us having to either take casualty's or run form everything and be nothing that could be described as "hero's/cool/awesome." till then. Ergo, need to be able to bring a lot of power, versatility, and options to the table.

Beyond that: I think Planar Shepard has become the way to go. Draconic Wild Shape, Frozen Wild Shape, Exalted Wild shape, Aberrant Wild Shape are on the to snag list. Any other really good wild shape feats I should poke around for?

[bekeleven]

Yeah, you could also use some Skill Focus (Basketweaving).

That, or Assume Supernatural Ability (Eye Rays).

[eggynack]

These net you Animal, Vermin (effectively), Magical Beast, Elemental, Outsider, Dragon (limited based on size), and Aberration Wild Shape forms. There may also be some other feats that open up additional types.
Fangshields druid substitution levels (CV, 40) can get you humanoid forms, and city soul (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) trades off elemental wild shape for animated objects. Other methods of gaining vermin forms include the vestment of verminshape (DMG II, 273), and wasteland druid (Sand, 47), as well as city shape (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), though I don't like that one as much. Those should turn that effectively into a definitely.

[Randomocity132]

Yeah, you could also use some Skill Focus (Basketweaving).



What's the story behind this? I see this suggested a lot.

[eggynack]

What's the story behind this? I see this suggested a lot.
It's a purposefully terrible joke feat which is suggested because it implies that druids don't need many feats to be awesome. Such a presented build will often be made up of many feats of this caliber, with a natural spell hanging out at 6th level. It's not an incorrect claim, as druids are obviously amazing without feats. They're way more amazing with feats though, as druids get some incredibly game changing ones, including the wild shape ones that have been cited, summoning feats like greenbound summoning and rashemi elemental summoning, animal companion feats like companion spellbond and natural bond, and generically good feats like natural spell. It's a list of some of the better feats in the game, each individually capable of improving the druid to a crazy degree along the axis in question. Druids get a lot of stuff to improve, and they get a lot of stuff to improve it with.

[Metahuman1]

Fangshields druid substitution levels (CV, 40) can get you humanoid forms, and city soul (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) trades off elemental wild shape for animated objects. Other methods of gaining vermin forms include the vestment of verminshape (DMG II, 273), and wasteland druid (Sand, 47), as well as city shape (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), though I don't like that one as much. Those should turn that effectively into a definitely.

CV? Which book is that? Champions of Valor?

[Karnith]

What's the story behind this? I see this suggested a lot.
It's a long-running joke on CharOp boards. Craft (Basketweaving) is a skill necessary for the Beget Bogun spell, and it has essentially no other use. Naturally, then, it got a joking status as the single most broken thing in the game; there were some old TO builds based on it and even a handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1121371).

[eggynack]

CV? Which book is that? Champions of Valor?
Quite so. It's a decent set of substitution levels, made up of largely beneficial but low impact trades.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, I think I have a fairly solid set of options here. Much obliged for the help, and if we live long enough to get to rebuild I'm sure the party will thank you as well playground! =)

[dascarletm]

Point of clarification: I didn't say it was a weak build. I said I needed stronger cause I'm trying to keep a woefully under optimized party alive long enough to rebuild, which out of about 6 PC's I know for sure 2 of them fully plan on doing and the rest are on the fence on the matter.

I think this is the root of the problem.

If your party is unoptimized (assuming the DM doesn't have the entire adventure set in stone) optimizing yourself will not help the problem, but instead exacerbate it.

Consider DM Joe and DM Moe:

DM Joe
DM Joe has a party with a low optimization level, besides one player, Roe. So far the encounters he thought would be fairly even fights, have instead proved more challenging for the party. Luckily it seems that Roe is changing his build up to be more on par with his team mates. DM Joe now is sending slightly less challenging enemies at the party, and everyone has fun.

DM Moe
DM Moe has a party with a low optimization level, besides one player, Roe. So far the encounters he thought would be fairly even fights, have instead proved more challenging for the party. However, Roe decides to make his build more powerful to compensate. His planned encounters are now easily crushed under the mighty onslaught of Roe. This proves too easy, and isn't very much fun for the other players. DM Moe must now try to create interesting encounters that are not too easy or too hard. Much more work on his part, and unless Roe and the party fight separate enemies, the encounters won't be much fun.


See my point?

You should strive to make a fun character that is on par with the current parties power level. Let the DM know that you and the party are slightly below the optimization curve you or he may have thought, and if he hasn't noticed yet, he should change future encounters so the inevitable TPK does not happen

[Metahuman1]

As I said, we've spoken with the DM. Once we get to a certain objective, which, every session get's further and further away it feels as just when we think we've clenched the objective the situation changes again and we have to accomplish yet something else, were gonna be given rebuilds.

The character I'm building now is a back up character in the increasingly likely case that to get us to the rebuild point, someone's gotta die. See, I'd rather my fairly generic support Sorcerer go down in a noble sacrifice then most of these other characters who, again, have good fluff and personality but lousy mechanics that are no where near what they need to be to actually do crap in this world.

It's been made clear the world is not gonna hold back for us. We are gonna have to step up to the world. Ergo, what ever it takes, including sacrificing a current character and building a god among men, to keep them alive long enough to get to that rebuild, is what I'm planning to do.

And once they get to the rebuild, I get to show them a lot of options they didn't even know were on the table. Hell, later this week I'm gonna hit up the DM and go "Look, just give me a couple of weeks warning before the rebuild's are gonna be allowed so I can make sure to get racial info on all the PC's from them and a clear idea of what they want there characters to be good at.".

Psionics aren't on the table right now, and for at least 1 if not 2 of these characters I may be lobbying the DM for access to some lower level Psionic Dips to help them out. And yes, at that time, I'll come to the playground with current builds and stats and go "help me out here." It's just a matter of not letting them all die horribly between now and then.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just get these:

Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon)
Exalted Wild Shape (Book of Exalted Deeds)
Frozen Wild Shape (Frostburn)
Assume Supernatural Ability (Savage Species)
Multiattack (Monster Manual)
Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual)