PDA

View Full Version : Bats on a boat



Boring McReader
2014-01-05, 09:55 PM
A large airship with plenty of nameless crew aboard. A powerful vampire resting alone below decks. A shortage of suitable sources of blood.

Will the Mechane reach its next destination with crew unharmed, or will Durkon start cribbing from Dracula?

AutomatedTeller
2014-01-05, 10:18 PM
Seems to me that a cleric can make food and water out of thin air. I'd assume that a vampire cleric should be able to figure out a way to make blood out of thin air, too.

Jaxzan Proditor
2014-01-05, 10:23 PM
I would hope that Durkon could come up with a better solution than killing innocents.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-01-05, 10:29 PM
I imagine that Durkon will probably just ask to feed on Roy, and Roy will agree and receive a restoration afterwards.

They're still friends, even with recent events that have transpired. I'm sure a little thing like vampirism won't affect that too much.

Living Oxymoron
2014-01-06, 12:29 AM
A large airship with plenty of nameless crew aboard. A powerful vampire resting alone below decks. A shortage of suitable sources of blood.

Will the Mechane reach its next destination with crew unharmed, or will Durkon start cribbing from Dracula?

I thought the same thing today! Would even start a new thread here, but I was swordsaged by you. :smallbiggrin:

I think it's time to Durkon begin to raise problems and remind his partners on his condition.

Trillium
2014-01-06, 03:17 AM
Seems to me that a cleric can make food and water out of thin air. I'd assume that a vampire cleric should be able to figure out a way to make blood out of thin air, too.

Technically, "food" is a subjective term. So it should be capable of creating blood for a hemophague.

thereaper
2014-01-06, 03:34 AM
I'm doubtful that it will be so simple. Remember, Rich wants Durkon's vampirism to actually matter. This is going to be more than just a change to his color scheme.

Bogardan_Mage
2014-01-06, 04:01 AM
He can use Restoration to "put the blood back" as Roy suggested using on Belkar. We might see a hint of vampirism actually "mattering" on the airship, but Roy likely won't allow him to do any lasting damage here. More likely the way it will matter is that he's now Evil aligned and has no qualms about harming innocents in and of itself (but he is still Lawful, so he's unlikely to go against Roy).

Once he gets home he'll have plenty of time to bring death and destruction.

jogiff
2014-01-06, 04:40 AM
I'm doubtful that it will be so simple. Remember, Rich wants Durkon's vampirism to actually matter. This is going to be more than just a change to his color scheme.

He's lawful evil, not lawful stupid. Durkon wouldn't do something like that has such a significant chance of coming back to bite him in the ass so hard with so little gain. Turning on your allies is stupid. He's probably not powerful enough to take them all on*. Even if he was it's a pointless risk.

*If he planned the attack and got a surprise round he probably could

Ridureyu
2014-01-06, 05:43 AM
It all depends on how much of a team player he still is.

WindStruck
2014-01-06, 06:29 AM
Maybe Roy will be the star of his very own cheesy horror/action movie! No, not bat's on a boat...

https://i.imgflip.com/5xgpq.jpg

Wights on a flight!

Uniclonus
2014-01-06, 02:05 PM
My money is on Durkula doing some light feeding, with the rest of the Order (except Belkar) writing it off somehow. 'Oh, he just needs to eat, no problem' or 'He's still adjusting to the new alignment, he hasn't got the impulses under control yet', or some other denial, perhaps something like it being no worse than anything Belkar has done. Probably with Belkar protesting and someone dismissing it as 'you're just holding a grudge from him feeding on you'.

Following on from that, Durkula would carry on committing acts that are more and more evil, with the Order still turning a blind eye, eventually culminating in Belkar making one of his big, indignant speeches that wakes everyone up to what Durkon now is and what he's been doing.

That or it'll all be played for laughs somehow.

Bulldog Psion
2014-01-06, 02:08 PM
I doubt Durk Malackssen is going to partake of the crew, but I do like your title -- "Bats on a Boat" :smallbiggrin: -- and your comment about "cribbing from Dracula" is funny too. :smallsmile:

Pokonic
2014-01-06, 02:10 PM
There's effectively two options here.

1. Durkon acts as polite as he can be, and he heals Roy after feeding. He mostly avoids the crew members, knowing that it would probably be best if he didn't act out of line, especially giving that it's still (mostly) daylight outside and his friends are onbord.

2. Durkon goes full vampire and start's making a little band of vampire spawn overnight, causing the entire airship to be a giant vampnest that crashes in Dwarven lands, causing doom to his people.

...

Option 1 is probably what's going to happen.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-01-06, 03:08 PM
Technically, "food" is a subjective term. So it should be capable of creating blood for a hemophague.
I hate to be this needlessly pedantic, but the spell creates food for humanoids, not undead.

Plus, you know, that would ruin the potential consequences for being a vampire, and as any decent storyteller should know, stories are about consequences.

thereaper
2014-01-07, 01:34 AM
He's lawful evil, not lawful stupid. Durkon wouldn't do something like that has such a significant chance of coming back to bite him in the ass so hard with so little gain. Turning on your allies is stupid. He's probably not powerful enough to take them all on*. Even if he was it's a pointless risk.

*If he planned the attack and got a surprise round he probably could

I was referring specifically to the idea of Durkon being able to sustain himself by summoning blood via Create Food and Water.

In other words, there will not be an easy and comfortable solution. Maybe Roy will offer Durkon his own blood, but he will almost certainly have a few misgivings about it. Or maybe in the future Durkon will find animals or enemies to feed off of. But the transition from the idea of a vampire teammate to the day-to-day reality of it will not be clean and pretty.

Trillium
2014-01-07, 02:18 AM
I hate to be this needlessly pedantic, but the spell creates food for humanoids, not undead.

Plus, you know, that would ruin the potential consequences for being a vampire, and as any decent storyteller should know, stories are about consequences.

I'm pretty sure somewhere in the monster manuals there must a hemophague humanoid. Something like non-undead anthropomorphic vampire bat. I mean, they has all kinds of stuff in them.

On the side note: have celestial/fiendish creatures got blood? :smallconfused:

geoduck
2014-01-07, 03:11 AM
Has it been stated yet in-strip that OotS-verse vampires have to drink blood to survive?

Vladier
2014-01-07, 03:17 AM
On the side note: have celestial/fiendish creatures got blood? :smallconfused:

There is nothing prohibiting an outsider from taking damage from spells like Horrid Wilting, so they have at least some type of bodily liquids, and they aren't immune to poison, unlike, say, elementals, so those liquids probably include blood or its substitutes. Also, all Outsiders breathe and can eat and sleep (even though they don't require eating or sleeping), which is, again, an evidence to the presence of circulatory system.
The description of vampire's bite attack doesn't say anything about its possible targets other than that the target should be living. Slay Living works on Outsiders.
So unless they have acidic blood (I believe there is a fiend with that somewhere) or unless Celestial blood counts as holy water, I suppose a vampire could feed on Outsiders.

On related note, I wonder, if there is some kind of spell that allows clerics to create blood specifically or if there is a Domain with a vampire cleric in mind in some obscure sourcebook.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-01-07, 04:28 AM
Has it been stated yet in-strip that OotS-verse vampires have to drink blood to survive?

I think it's safe to assume that unless the comic explicitly specifies a variation from the 'standard' archetype for a vampire, then OOTS vampires are probably going to be normal vampires in the way they're commonly understood.

For example, Protection from Daylight is not something vampires normally have access to.

Gorm_the_DBA
2014-01-07, 02:22 PM
I can't believe you're missing it...

Durkon needs to feed, Belkar, as part of his new "Helpful" self, agrees to be the feed souce, Durkon accidentally overdrains him (maybe something distracts him).

Voila, prophecy fulfilled, Durkon's vampirism matters, it's a complete shock to the average reader, FLAWLESS VICTORY!!!

Keltest
2014-01-07, 02:25 PM
Doesn't Roy still have that bag of tricks? that can summon animals for Durkon to snack on?

Arrowstorm122
2014-01-07, 02:32 PM
I can't believe you're missing it...

Durkon needs to feed, Belkar, as part of his new "Helpful" self, agrees to be the feed souce, Durkon accidentally overdrains him (maybe something distracts him).

Voila, prophecy fulfilled, Durkon's vampirism matters, it's a complete shock to the average reader, FLAWLESS VICTORY!!!

Doubt it. Belkar is the one who trusts Vampire Durkon the least currently. I doubt it's like Twilight where Durkon can "accidentally" overdrain Belkar, with no way to save him. Would also be a bit of a crappy end to Belkar.

Targ Collective
2014-01-07, 02:38 PM
Roy lost the Bag of Tricks plummeting to his doom at the end of the Azure Siege arc. He threw the bag away while falling in mid-air. It's gone.

Trillium
2014-01-07, 02:45 PM
Roy lost the Bag of Tricks plummeting to his doom at the end of the Azure Siege arc. He threw the bag away while falling in mid-air. It's gone.

Didn't Haley gather all Roy's stuff when collecting his body?
Roy fell in a straight line, bag of tricks couldn't have fallen further away than Celia's talisman.

Dunsparce
2014-01-07, 03:02 PM
Roy lost the Bag of Tricks plummeting to his doom at the end of the Azure Siege arc. He threw the bag away while falling in mid-air. It's gone.

He still has it. He used it when they were looking for the gate using the false coordinates they were given during the searching montage.

EDIT: 7th Panel:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0692.html

veti
2014-01-07, 04:09 PM
I hate to be this needlessly pedantic, but the spell creates food for humanoids, not undead.

Pretty sure Durkon is still humanoid.

Two arms, two legs, one head - check.

Ergo, food for him == food for a humanoid.

Bulldog Psion
2014-01-07, 04:13 PM
It's a good point, IMO, that you make about the fact that Durkon's vampirism can't be consequence-free. So, bats on a boat may be more ominous than one might think, and the Bearded Bloodsucker may indeed skulk through the darkened Mechane looking for someone on whom to feed.

Bogardan_Mage
2014-01-07, 06:50 PM
Pretty sure Durkon is still humanoid.

Two arms, two legs, one head - check.

Ergo, food for him == food for a humanoid.
Humanoid has a specific meaning in the game. Undead are not humanoids.

veti
2014-01-07, 09:19 PM
Humanoid has a specific meaning in the game. Undead are not humanoids.

It seems... not everyone agrees (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Humanoid_Type) with your analysis.

"Vampire", in D&D speak, is a template that can be applied to many types of creature. If the pre-existing creature was a humanoid (I say), it doesn't stop being one just because it's now a vampire.

Jay R
2014-01-07, 09:47 PM
I would hope that Durkon could come up with a better solution than killing innocents.

That would be evil.


I imagine that Durkon will probably just ask to feed on Roy, and Roy will agree and receive a restoration afterwards.

That Durkon. Just a sucker for his friends.



Seems to me that a cleric can make food and water out of thin air. I'd assume that a vampire cleric should be able to figure out a way to make blood out of thin air, too.Technically, "food" is a subjective term. So it should be capable of creating blood for a hemophague.

I don't believe the rules work this way, but it would be hilarious if Durkon's "Create Food and Water" spell only creates blood now.


Has it been stated yet in-strip that OotS-verse vampires have to drink blood to survive?

Well, there's bloodwart tea.

Bogardan_Mage
2014-01-08, 04:04 AM
It seems... not everyone agrees (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Humanoid_Type) with your analysis.
Oh wow, linking to the mechanical meaning of the term totally disproves my claim that the term has a specific mechanical meaning in the game.


"Vampire", in D&D speak, is a template that can be applied to many types of creature. If the pre-existing creature was a humanoid (I say), it doesn't stop being one just because it's now a vampire.
What you say is irrelevant. You are wrong. The vampire template makes the creature Undead. It becomes an augmented humanoid, but that's not the same as being a humanoid. It certainly isn't a humanoid by virtue of its number of limbs, that's just a description.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-01-08, 04:11 AM
That Durkon. Just a sucker for his friends.
I believe you meant to say that Roy is a sucker for his friends.

Keltest
2014-01-08, 08:58 AM
Oh wow, linking to the mechanical meaning of the term totally disproves my claim that the term has a specific mechanical meaning in the game.


What you say is irrelevant. You are wrong. The vampire template makes the creature Undead. It becomes an augmented humanoid, but that's not the same as being a humanoid. It certainly isn't a humanoid by virtue of its number of limbs, that's just a description.

While I happen to believe you are technically correct, under no circumstances is that a good way to argue that. If at any point you find yourself saying "i don't care what you say" its time to step away from the forums and go take a long shower.

Muenster Man
2014-01-08, 09:13 AM
I think it would be pretty funny if crew members on the ship started disappearing and everyone thought Durkon was responsible. But then it just turns out that a few of them were playing hooky and fooling around. Everyone has a good laugh about it... except for Durkon.

Kish
2014-01-08, 09:50 AM
It seems... not everyone agrees (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Humanoid_Type) with your analysis.

You might want to read that again. "Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities" looks like it leads in a pretty short line to, "(So vampires are not creatures of the humanoid type)".

Not that I ever understand why anyone links to D&Dwiki instead of to the actual SRD, which says--unambiguously--that Durkon's type has changed, that his type is now undead, and that's he's an "augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid" (...the author apparently wasn't sure which...); the description of "augmented humanoid" speaks of a type that the ex-humanoid used to have, the description of "monstrous humanoid" speaks of a type the monstrous humanoid is similar to but is not.

In any event, I can flat guarantee you Rich will not look up the description of Create Food and Water and go, "Huh, I guess I'm legally required to make this create blood which Durkon can unlive on, because he's still dwarf-shaped (most of the time)." Of more relevance to whether Create Food and Water will produce blood Durkon can use as his sole sustenance is:
1) Malack sure didn't use it that way; he talked about drinking the Blood of the Convicted. Nor did he invent a Create Blood spell while he was inventing Protection from Daylight.
2) How likely is it, do you think, that Rich will treat Durkon's need for blood as something to be house-ruled away with a shrug?

Jay R
2014-01-08, 10:20 AM
That Durkon. Just a sucker for his friends.I believe you meant to say that Roy is a sucker for his friends.

Technically, the vampire does the sucking.

veti
2014-01-08, 07:33 PM
Oh wow, linking to the mechanical meaning of the term totally disproves my claim that the term has a specific mechanical meaning in the game.

Look at that page.

Look at the list of "Humanoid Type Creatures". Under "V", it says: Vampire.

It may be wrong, but I didn't put it there. Therefore, I take it as evidence that at least one other person in the world shares my opinion.

Bogardan_Mage
2014-01-08, 08:16 PM
Look at that page.

Look at the list of "Humanoid Type Creatures". Under "V", it says: Vampire.

It may be wrong, but I didn't put it there. Therefore, I take it as evidence that at least one other person in the world shares my opinion.
Well ok then. In kind, I present Kish as evidence that "at least one other person in the world" wasn't able to take your cryptic comment in the manner in which you intended. You should spell out that kind of thing in the future.

As Kish said, D&Dwiki is notoriously unreliable. There are any number of reasons why someone might have put Vampire in that category: It's a template that can be applied to humanoids, it's an "augmented humanoid" (which counts as a humanoid for some but not all purposes), the person who put it there, like you, simply didn't understand the relevant rules, etc.

In the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) it is stated unambiguously that Vampires are Undead. Creatures don't have more than one type in this game. They are not humanoid.

NihhusHuotAliro
2014-01-08, 08:24 PM
I can't believe you're missing it...

Durkon needs to feed, Belkar, as part of his new "Helpful" self, agrees to be the feed souce, Durkon accidentally overdrains him (maybe something distracts him).

Voila, prophecy fulfilled, Durkon's vampirism matters, it's a complete shock to the average reader, FLAWLESS VICTORY!!!

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!:smallbiggrin:

BeerMug Paladin
2014-01-09, 03:32 AM
In the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) it is stated unambiguously that Vampires are Undead. Creatures don't have more than one type in this game. They are not humanoid.
Also, it's meant to avoid people stacking incompatible (and silly) templates on one another. No vampire-wraiths, as each template changes the base type from a living creature into an undead. Vampires, whatever their base type, become undead, and thus are disqualified from other living-to-undead templates. I'd cite other examples of disqualification, but I don't feel like looking them up.

But that aside, OOTS might be inspired from D&D, but it's not reliant upon D&D minutia. Personally, I find the idea of a Durkon feeling personally conflicted about feeding on the blood of the living and having to get along with mostly-good traveling companions much more compelling than I find the idea of Durkon casting a spell to have a smoothee each morning and otherwise being his same ol', dwarfy self.

I wonder when and if Durkon will discover that goblin blood has a rich, smoky flavor to it.

Jay R
2014-01-09, 12:15 PM
"Humanoid" is an English word meaning "sorta like a human". By definition, "sorta like" doesn't have an exact definition. A vampire is sorta like a human, so is humanoid, in English.

But "humanoid" is also used as a jargon term in D&D rules, as a template. In that jargon usage, it is subject to all the rules for templates. As a game term, "humanoid" does not refer to undead.

Unfortunately, people write rules in English, and occasionally use the term "humanoid" to mean, well, ... humanoid.

Hence the confusion. You are all sorta correct.

You are correctoid.

Bulldog Psion
2014-01-09, 12:53 PM
Wow, "humanoid" is a word. I always thought that it was some kind of fake word made up for D&D and maybe sci-fi movies, and that the real language equivalent was "anthropoid."

Learn something new every day.

FabulousFizban
2014-01-09, 03:15 PM
I would hope that Durkon could come up with a better solution than killing innocents.

that was good Durkon, this is evil Durkon. As Belkar pointed out and Roy chose to ignore, that ISN'T Durkon. His vampirism could very well become a serious problem for the party. Also, Durkon gets to go home now!

Jay R
2014-01-09, 06:59 PM
Wow, "humanoid" is a word. I always thought that it was some kind of fake word made up for D&D and maybe sci-fi movies, and that the real language equivalent was "anthropoid."

Learn something new every day.

Yup. According to wikipedia, it was first used in 1912, to refer to fossils.

Keltest
2014-01-09, 07:06 PM
that was good Durkon, this is evil Durkon. As Belkar pointed out and Roy chose to ignore, that ISN'T Durkon. His vampirism could very well become a serious problem for the party. Also, Durkon gets to go home now!

Even if hes an evil midget now, im fairly certain hes intelligent enough to know that he cant beat the entire party by himself, which is what it would come to if he did that, especially surrounded by Scoundrel's crew.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-01-09, 09:13 PM
Even if hes an evil midget now, im fairly certain hes intelligent enough to know that he cant beat the entire party by himself, which is what it would come to if he did that, especially surrounded by Scoundrel's crew.
Plus, you know he's best friends with Roy, and also likes Elan, Haley and V. So he has no real reason to kill them. Also, when Belkar was actively attacking him, he didn't attack in return. I suspect he doesn't want to kill his friends and work companions.

malloyd
2014-01-09, 10:14 PM
Yup. According to wikipedia, it was first used in 1912, to refer to0 fossils.

And it's science fictional use for things shaped like but not related to humans dates to the 1940s. Asimov's Homo Sol (1940) is given the credit in Brave New Words, certainly it was well established when Jack Williamson used it in 1948.

Trillium
2014-01-10, 02:27 AM
One moment. I found the answer to vampirism!

Stone to Flesh! Give V a supply of stone, create a supply of flesh which can be drained for blood!
Though it WILL soon look macabre and grotesque - mass of dessicated, drained flesh...

Kornaki
2014-01-10, 11:42 AM
The Create Food and Water debate is even simpler

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createFoodAndWater.htm


Food and water to sustain three humans or one horse/level for 24 hours


It doesn't sustain three humanoids, it sustains three humans. Anyone who can be sustained by human nourishment can benefit from the spell but just because you can find a humanoid that eats blood doesn't mean the spell gains additional powers.

Jay R, the Vampire is still "sort of humanoid" in a very technical rules term. The vampire's type (as stated in the SRD template) is Undead (augmented humanoid). He has a subtype of augmented humanoid which has explicit rules describing what humanoid features he keeps, and "acts as a humanoid for the purposes of spells" does not appear to be one of them.

Keltest
2014-01-10, 11:48 AM
The Create Food and Water debate is even simpler

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createFoodAndWater.htm



It doesn't sustain three humanoids, it sustains three humans. Anyone who can be sustained by human nourishment can benefit from the spell but just because you can find a humanoid that eats blood doesn't mean the spell gains additional powers.

Jay R, the Vampire is still "sort of humanoid" in a very technical rules term. The vampire's type (as stated in the SRD template) is Undead (augmented humanoid). He has a subtype of augmented humanoid which has explicit rules describing what humanoid features he keeps, and "acts as a humanoid for the purposes of spells" does not appear to be one of them.

Just to play Devil's advocate, that one is almost as complicated. It says that it creates a food of your choice, so if you wanted to create a blood smoothie or something, theres room for a rules lawyer to make that argument. Not that I think Rich would do that either, but its significantly easier an argument to make than whether or not a vampire is considered Humanoid for the purposes of a spell.

WindStruck
2014-01-10, 12:17 PM
Just to play Devil's advocate, that one is almost as complicated. It says that it creates a food of your choice, so if you wanted to create a blood smoothie or something, theres room for a rules lawyer to make that argument. Not that I think Rich would do that either, but its significantly easier an argument to make than whether or not a vampire is considered Humanoid for the purposes of a spell.

Regardless, it still says for 3 humans. So the "choice" is, say, between porridge, a bran muffin, a biscuit, some other "simple fare" that is really bland (but nourishing).

I mean honestly, is someone next going to suggest that if an illithid cast this spell, it would produce a fresh, sentient brain for them to consume? :smallannoyed:

Frankly, a spell to nourish a vampire could probably exist and be researched but it would be called "Create Humanoid Blood" or something of the like.

Keltest
2014-01-10, 12:21 PM
Regardless, it still says for 3 humans. So the "choice" is, say, between porridge, a bran muffin, a biscuit, some other "simple fare" that is really bland (but nourishing).

I mean honestly, is someone next going to suggest that if an illithid cast this spell, it would produce a fresh, sentient brain for them to consume? :smallannoyed:

Frankly, a spell to nourish a vampire could probably exist and be researched but it would be called "Create Humanoid Blood" or something of the like.

I would be genuinely surprised if some variation of that was NOT the case, since the number of non human or demihuman races with clerics is large enough for that to be a legitimate question.

Trillium
2014-01-10, 02:04 PM
Wait a second. What if we're talking cannibal humans? Such exist, so the spell should be able to create food for cannibals - and since most cannibals ain't civilized, the meat created may very well be raw and bloody.

Komatik
2014-01-11, 01:53 PM
Regardless, it still says for 3 humans. So the "choice" is, say, between porridge, a bran muffin, a biscuit, some other "simple fare" that is really bland (but nourishing).

I mean honestly, is someone next going to suggest that if an illithid cast this spell, it would produce a fresh, sentient brain for them to consume? :smallannoyed:

Frankly, a spell to nourish a vampire could probably exist and be researched but it would be called "Create Humanoid Blood" or something of the like.

We are actually nourished by blood. Like we are by munching things' brains. We just don't tend to do those things in the West, but people totally do get by in bad times by drinking blood.

Jay R
2014-01-11, 05:18 PM
We are actually nourished by blood. Like we are by munching things' brains. We just don't tend to do those things in the West, but people totally do get by in bad times by drinking blood.

But it does not, technically, qualify as "rather bland".

Ridureyu
2014-01-11, 06:35 PM
Duck brain is a little sour, but pretty good.