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PMDM
2007-01-20, 04:45 PM
Out of the core classes, there are 4 classes that give you a multitude of class abilities from level 1-20, and consequently, seem to be limiting in terms of roleplaying values. Barbarian, Druid, Monk, and Paladin.

The Barbarian is allright, because the alternitive, the Fighter, allows a lot of feats, while the Barbarian does a really good job of being the opposite of the fighter, using class abilities. His rage ability, and damage reduction is more than enough to make up for the 11 bonus feats that he's missing. The one silly thing I can see in a barbarian is illiteracy, because I feel that should be more of a Role-Playing choice, but that doesn't bother many people.

Likewise, the Druid is a nice alternative to the cleric. The Druid gets a lot of abilities about polymorphing, called will shape. But if you use the alternative system presented on this site, it's never problem. The Druid can still be considered overpowered, but the problem is with divine spell-casters, and not with the Druid, so it's allright.

The Paladin at first glance, seems like it's a prestige class, because the most important abilities deal with smiting evil, and being good in general. But the paladin really allows someone who wants to be a Fighter-Cleric hybrid much easier. As an added bonus, you get most of it's abilities early, and you can play with an easy varient to make Paladins of any of the "Exterme" alignments, such as a chaotically evil paladin. The paladin makes it easy for someone to roleplay a strongly based alignment.

The Monk, however, is very different from every core character. It has all good saves, something that no other core class can attest to. Apparently, the average Base Attack Bonus is to make up for this, but as the Monk levels up, the unarmed damage increases too. Instead of wearing armor, the monk gains an Armor class bonus, and even gets a huge speed boost when he dosn't fight with a weapon, but instead with his formidable fists. So, besides never having to spend well gained gp on armor, or a weapon, the monk's class abilties can be rediculously useful, especially in higher levels. Slow fall, while still only useful in certain situations, breaks the allready broken falling damage rules. Using dimension door at level 12 can be game breaking. My personal favorites are the ones that can break a campaign, such as timeless body. This wouldn't be too much of a problem, except for the fact that there are loopholes for the Monk's "unarmed attack" bonus, such as the quarterstaff. So a monk can have a magic quarterstaff, and a whole lot of little magic items, like his companions. But he also has a whole lot of bonuses included, making him about as strong as another PC*1.75.

Obviously, I can't cut out the monk out of core, he's too intigrated with the feel of the game. What variations have been made, to make the monk fit into the game a bit more???

I_Got_This_Name
2007-01-20, 05:16 PM
I can agree that getting Dimension Door at level 12 is game-breaking. The Sorcerer can get it four levels earlier, and can use it so much more often.

The monk needs to spend just as much on Bracers of Armor as the other PCs do, and three times as much on an Amulet of Mighty Fists as the others do on their weapons, or not be able to take advantage of their unarmed damage.

Slow Fall doesn't come up that much, and mages are already immune to falling damage when they want to be from 1st level, and anyone willing to drop 2,200 GP on a Ring of Feather Falling gets the same benefit. That means that Slow Fall is worth less than a 2,200 GP item.

Timeless Body doesn't do anything in most games, and when it does, the casters are getting a lot more from their aging (casting stat > monk's wisdom), and can, likewise, ignore the physical penalties (Polymorph, or simply sit in the back rank behind magical defenses).

shaka gl
2007-01-20, 05:36 PM
I think if you give them a maximun unarmed damage of 1d10, lower a bit the movement rate and take away that silly Dimension Door (which makes no sense at all); they re fine...

Ramza00
2007-01-20, 05:43 PM
*bites tongue*

Marius
2007-01-20, 05:44 PM
If anything they should get MORE (and probably different) abilities. I would give them maneuvers from ToB

shaka gl
2007-01-20, 05:49 PM
I wont argue that they need more stuff, but the ones i said above are broken. Full BAB is what they need...

Druid
2007-01-20, 05:49 PM
Monks suck. The last thing they need is to be powered down. Who cares if they get lots of abilities, hardly any of them actually help the monk take down enemies and most of the ones that do suck. Dimension door once a day at twelfth level? No where near broken. Unarmed damage? Monks still end up miles behind fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, rogues, and most everyone else in the entire game in the damage department. The only class I can see the monk out damaging is the bard, and the bard has so many things he should be doing before frontline combat it doesn't even matter. Timeless body? How is this game breaking?

Druid
2007-01-20, 05:50 PM
I wont argue that they need more stuff, but the ones i said above are broken. Full BAB is what they need...

How are they broken? It isn't enough to just say that they are, proove it.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-20, 05:56 PM
...

Monks are nice, but next to most of the other classes they're downright weak in most combats. About the only time I can think of that you could call the monk "overpowered" is in scenarios where the DM has the party captured and their weapons taken away. Sure, they can make saves all day long, but survivability and the ability to escape doesn't translate into power by itself.

The_Snark
2007-01-20, 05:58 PM
Monks really aren't overpowered. Let's compare a level 20 monk with a level 20 fighter wielding the standard greatsword (this will be a stereotypical, full-plate greatsword fighter). Assume both put an 18 in Strength and have belts of giant strength +6. +5 greatsword, +5 amulet of mighty fists, just to balance it out. The monk does, what, 2d10 damage?

So, the monk's average damage is going to be 2d10+12, for an average of 23 damage. The fighter's average damage is 2d6+15, for an average of 22 damage. It does look at first like the monk has the advantage, particularly since they get flurry of blows, but keep in mind:
- Due to the base attack problem, the monk will be hitting 25% less than the fighter, on average.
- Monks very rarely have an 18 to put in Strength, since they have to worry about Wisdom, Dexterity, and Constitution as well. A fighter only has to worry about Constitution and having decent Dexterity, plus enough of other stats to qualify for any feats they might take.
- This isn't factoring in the fighter's large numbers of feats. Weapon Specialization alone is enough to tip the balance on the average damage. Power Attack tips it even further, and things like Weapon Focus help accuracy. Monks can benefit from a few of these, but just not very many.
- Monks have to spend more on enhancing armor and unarmed strikes than fighters do on their armor and weapons, not less. Bracers of armor +8 cost 64,000 and give +8 to AC, as compared to 26,500 for +5 full plate, which provides +13 AC. Similarly, an amulet of mighty fists +5 costs three times what a +5 weapon does.
- A monk can wield a quarterstaff, yeah, but they don't get to use their unarmed base damage with it, you know. They're back to doing 1d6 damage each strike.

The monk's value lies more in special abilities, true. Three good saves, spell resistance, immunity to poison and disease- all useful, but more defensive in nature. Slow fall isn't very useful, since a character with a good Reflex save won't be doing a whole lot of falling anyway. Dimension door 1/day is... okay, but hardly game-breaking. Empty body is nice, but at 19th level the spellcasters have been doing this for half the game, and can provide it to the whole party by now. The ability to heal is sorta useful, but paladins get more, and earlier, too. Timeless body is useless; it's more a flavor ability than anything else. Unless your DM is willing to let your character (but not anyone else's!) sit around for fifty years, it will never come into play.

Zincorium
2007-01-20, 06:08 PM
I think the basic problem with the monk is that they've got a bit of confusion regarding what role the should be taking.

Are they mystics who can bend the laws of the universe using only their inner strength and willpower? Then they should use some variant of psionics.

Are they true masters of unarmed combat (which is something that they're easily beaten in, honestly)? Then they should have, apart from full BAB, significant advantages in things like tripping and disarming over and beyond what the fighter can do. The fighter is able to specialize in so many areas, that it's rather unfair to have them be better at what a monk is supposed to do than the monk is.

Umbral_Arcanist
2007-01-20, 06:32 PM
Monks are good for (IMO) a few things

`1: Stealthy scouts/skirmishers
2: Drunken masters
3: Multiclassing with paladin or blackguard to make mage killers (for the saves)
4: use with the ascetic X feats
5:a character concept
6: a shuriken thowing master thrower (who needs rogue levels for SA as well)

and those are pretty much the only times i'd use it, and in most of these cases it'd be a dip with some PrCs thrown in: thief acrobat for 2, occult slayer for 3, eldritch fist, or master thrower for 6 [obviously] for example

Orzel
2007-01-20, 07:09 PM
...

About the only time I can think of that you could call the monk "overpowered" is in scenarios where the DM has the party captured and their weapons taken away.

or good o' "attacked in your sleep".

Monks are for the most part rogues with a higher base damage, a lower max damage, higher survival, and no trap knowledge. They should usually be treated as such.

Bosh
2007-01-20, 07:21 PM
Monks overpowered? You are a funny funny man :tongue:

You do realize that a monk doesn't get to use his unarmed damage when using monk weapons, right?

Monks are consistently below-par power-wise unless the players wealth is WAY WAY below suggested wealth levels or you have the players consistently get kidnapped and loose their stuff. Monks have some fun ability but, except for maybe bards, they're probably the single worst class at taking down enemies and most of their abilities don't really make them more powerful they just compensate them for loosing out on lots of cool magic armor and weapons.

Flawless
2007-01-20, 08:20 PM
Monks can deal quite a lot of damage. At 6th level, take improved natural attack, and you deal damage as if one size-category larger. Spend 13.000gp on a monk's belt and take the supirior anarmed attack feat at 9th level and you deal 4d8 + str points of damage by 11th level and have three attacks at your highest attack bonus. Then take a level cleric with acces to the magic domain and buy a wand of enlarge person. Now it's 6d8 + str. A wand of divine power might be a good idea as well.

Bosh
2007-01-20, 08:30 PM
Monks can deal quite a lot of damage. At 6th level, take improved natural attack, and you deal damage as if one size-category larger. Spend 13.000gp on a monk's belt and take the supirior anarmed attack feat at 9th level and you deal 4d8 + str points of damage by 11th level and have three attacks at your highest attack bonus. Then take a level cleric with acces to the magic domain and buy a wand of enlarge person. Now it's 6d8 + str. A wand of divine power might be a good idea as well.

Well obviously if you min-max the hell out of ANYTHING and have EXACTLY the right equipment anything can be powerful. For example fighters are a sad sad class but a fighter with nothing but a non-magical club wielded two-handed, shock trooper and leap attack can top the above example for damage output with ease.

At 6th level: 1d6+Str 1.5+18 AND that has a much better chance of actually hitting anything than the monk does.

1d6+Str 1.5+33 at level 11.

Also I believe that applying Improved Natural Attack to monks is a questionably legal.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-20, 08:38 PM
Applying INA to monks is unquestionably legal. It's in the FAQ, and besides, monks' unarmed strikes count as both natural and manufactured weapons. You can apply INA.

Bosh
2007-01-20, 08:43 PM
Applying INA to monks is unquestionably legal. It's in the FAQ, and besides, monks' unarmed strikes count as both natural and manufactured weapons. You can apply INA.

I stand corrected. Its still not enough to keep a monk from being firmly below-par power-wise in most campaigns.

Ramza00
2007-01-20, 09:06 PM
Monks can deal quite a lot of damage. At 6th level, take improved natural attack, and you deal damage as if one size-category larger. Spend 13.000gp on a monk's belt and take the supirior anarmed attack feat at 9th level and you deal 4d8 + str points of damage by 11th level and have three attacks at your highest attack bonus. Then take a level cleric with acces to the magic domain and buy a wand of enlarge person. Now it's 6d8 + str. A wand of divine power might be a good idea as well.

A Monk's belt costs 13,000 gp the first time you can buy such an item is lvl 11 (66,000 gp) due to the restriction of WBL saying your most expensive item shouldn't cost more than 1/4 your WBL. If you craft it yourself then it will only cost you 6,500 gp which means you can incur this item at lvl 8. Problem is you need to be able to cast Righteous Might a 5th lvl cleric spell or Transformation a 6th lvl wizard spell, something your Cleric or Wizard won't be able to cast themselves. Now they can always buy a scroll of righteous might or transformation but that will put another 1,125 gp (Righteous Might) or 1,950 gp (Transformation) to the cost of the monk's belt. This will put your item pass the wbl guidelines for lvl 8. Thus you might as well wait for lvl 9 when the cleric can provide the righteous might spell for free.

Thus in reality the soonest you can get a monk's belt is lvl 9 if you craft it, lvl 11 if you buy it, or a little sooner if you have an artificer in your party and he takes the appropriate cost reduction feats. You can get it sooner but you have to "build your character" around it, and only the artificer really gains no long term lost for building a crafter.

Ironically lvl 11 is the level where the big "damage leaps" of a monk ends, his unarmed damage no longer progresses anymore (11+5+4=20), his flurry is perfected, damage wise he gets no more benefits from his class. Only things that boost his damage now are strength boosters, bab increases, and caster level increases from items/spells all things he gets from "outside sources".

Shisumo
2007-01-20, 09:17 PM
Here's my (relatively modest) suggestion for balancing the monk class. Add/modify the following class abilities:

4th level: Ki Strike (magic, +1)
7th level: Ki Strike (+2)
10th level: Ki Strike (lawful, +3)
13th level: Flurry of blows +1, Ki Strike (+4)
16th level: Ki Strike (adamatine, +5)
17th level: Flurry of blows +2

Flurry of Blows: When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. At 13th level, the monk gains a +1 bonus to all attacks made as a part of a flurry of blows. At 17th level, the bonus increases to +2. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

Ki Strike: At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as +1 magic weapons, granting a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage, as well as overcoming the damage reduction of certain creatures. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 7th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as +2 weapons. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are +3 weapons, and gain the lawful property as well. At 13th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as +4 weapons. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as +5 weapons, as well as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

New Feats:
IMPROVED KI STRIKE
Prerequisite: Ki Strike class ability
Benefit: The enhancement bonus of your ki strike is increased by 1.
Special: This feat may be taken up to 3 times. Its effects stack. The maximum enhancement bonus you can have from your ki strike ability is still +5, however.

SHAPED KI STRIKE
Prerequisite: Ki Strike +2
Benefit: Choose any weapon special ability with a bonus cost less than the enhancement of your ki strike. You convert the appropriate amount of ki strike enhancement into the weapon special ability, which then applies to your unarmed strikes. For example: Ember has Ki Strike +4. She selects Shaped Ki Strike, and chooses the flaming burst special ability, which has a +2 bonus cost. Her Ki Strike ability is reduced to +2, but she gains the flaming burst ability on her unarmed strikes as well.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time, the character must choose a new special ability.

Thomas
2007-01-20, 10:07 PM
What, you're balancing it down ? The poor guys are already next to useless.

Starbuck_II
2007-01-20, 11:10 PM
Here's my (relatively modest) suggestion for balancing the monk class. Add/modify the following class abilities:

4th level: Ki Strike (magic, +1)
7th level: Ki Strike (+2)
10th level: Ki Strike (lawful, +3)
13th level: Flurry of blows +1, Ki Strike (+4)
16th level: Ki Strike (adamatine, +5)
17th level: Flurry of blows +2

Flurry of Blows: When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. At 13th level, the monk gains a +1 bonus to all attacks made as a part of a flurry of blows. At 17th level, the bonus increases to +2. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

Ki Strike: At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as +1 magic weapons, granting a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage, as well as overcoming the damage reduction of certain creatures. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 7th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as +2 weapons. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are +3 weapons, and gain the lawful property as well. At 13th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as +4 weapons. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as +5 weapons, as well as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

New Feats:
IMPROVED KI STRIKE
Prerequisite: Ki Strike class ability
Benefit: The enhancement bonus of your ki strike is increased by 1.
Special: This feat may be taken up to 3 times. Its effects stack. The maximum enhancement bonus you can have from your ki strike ability is still +5, however.

SHAPED KI STRIKE
Prerequisite: Ki Strike +2
Benefit: Choose any weapon special ability with a bonus cost less than the enhancement of your ki strike. You convert the appropriate amount of ki strike enhancement into the weapon special ability, which then applies to your unarmed strikes. For example: Ember has Ki Strike +4. She selects Shaped Ki Strike, and chooses the flaming burst special ability, which has a +2 bonus cost. Her Ki Strike ability is reduced to +2, but she gains the flaming burst ability on her unarmed strikes as well.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time, the character must choose a new special ability.

I like the Monk changes dude.

Improved Ki Strike is fior multi classed ones?
Question if you use Shaped Ki Strike lowering Ki Strike bonus does Improved raise it again?

shaka gl
2007-01-20, 11:41 PM
I dont think (now) that the monk its overpowered (except with the movement rate, which i consider insane). What i mean, is that the class makes absolutely no sense. You read the fluff and the crunch, and its just like they rented a bad chinese movie and made it a class.

Shisumo
2007-01-20, 11:42 PM
I like the Monk changes dude.

Improved Ki Strike is fior multi classed ones?
Question if you use Shaped Ki Strike lowering Ki Strike bonus does Improved raise it again?

Multiclassed, but also pure who want to get to a +10 (equivalent) weapon eventually.

And yes, that was the intent.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-20, 11:49 PM
This question is only slightly related, but there are already two Monk threads bouncing around (and this one seemed less scary) and it's just a quick question...

How useful is the Quivering Palm ability?

Is it so useful that you'd be a fool not to use it?

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-20, 11:50 PM
Well, it's something to hold over an opponent's head. "Do what I say or I'll will you to die!" If the opponent knows that you can, in fact, do so, he's very likely to be more... compliant. :smallwink:

Druid
2007-01-21, 12:00 AM
I dont think (now) that the monk its overpowered (except with the movement rate, which i consider insane). What i mean, is that the class makes absolutely no sense. You read the fluff and the crunch, and its just like they rented a bad chinese movie and made it a class.

Ah, well in that case I agree with you. My theory is that after creating all the other classes Skip, Monty and Jon had a bunch of left over ideas for abilities and combined them all into one class.

Draz74
2007-01-21, 02:17 AM
This question is only slightly related, but there are already two Monk threads bouncing around (and this one seemed less scary) and it's just a quick question...

How useful is the Quivering Palm ability?

Is it so useful that you'd be a fool not to use it?

Well, if you're playing a typical Monk, you need all the help you can get, so use it when you can. But don't expect it to work very often.

Why? First, the save DC isn't that high. By level 15, when you get Quivering Palm and it has a DC of 17+Wis, the Wizard is casting save-or-die 8th-level spells with a DC of 18+Int. And he can probably afford a higher Intelligence than you can afford a high Wisdom. And he may have Spell Focus feats or whatnot to boost him. So Quivering Palm isn't a pathetically easy save, like monster poisons or something, but it's not a super-hard save.

Second, once per week. Ow. This is also why it's not worth it to use Ability Focus, etc., to match the Wizard's Spell Focus.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-21, 02:40 AM
Yeah, that's why, despite my love for monks, they never use that ability. They might as well not have it.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-21, 02:43 AM
After we're done "balancing" monks, we can tone down the Warlock, the Fighter, and the Bard, and finally go on to give the Complete Warrior Samurai a much-needed nerfing.

Gralamin
2007-01-21, 02:48 AM
After we're done "balancing" monks, we can tone down the Warlock, the Fighter, and the Bard, and finally go on to give the Complete Warrior Samurai a much-needed nerfing.

Oh and then we can go buff the Druid, the Cleric and The Artificer!

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-21, 02:50 AM
Don't forget the poor Wizard. He should be able to sponatneously cast anything he knows.

Edit: wow, I just saw "Dimension Door can be game-breaking at level 12" in the OP.

I... I guess the person doesn't realize it's a fourth level spell? You know, castable by wizards at level 7? And that at 9th Teleport is availible?

Druid
2007-01-21, 03:16 AM
It's really not fair that the archivist should have to track down all those divine spells; instead he should just get them all for free!

Aimbot
2007-01-21, 03:45 AM
Quivering fist should just drain the hp of the monk a few D(x). That would make the ability worth having but still risky.

Evil_Socrates
2007-01-21, 03:49 AM
First of all, let me preface this by saying that I love the monk. Even though they can be underpowered in many campaigns, I always feel inexorably drawn to the class.

I think the main problem with the monk is that not all of their class abilities fit their role particularly well. It seems to me that they are best equiped to be skirmishers who can take out targets of opportunity, scout, and avoid difficult situations (mechanically) whilst having the flavor of a high speed, finesse, mystical battler.

The whole idea is that they don't wear armor and typically fight unarmed because their purpose is to use their "ki" (a subtle magic) to transform themselves into elegant weapons in their own right. They are not interested primarily with inflicting the most damage possible are being the strongest, but rather the process of transforming into an extention of their ki that they can take anywhere on the battle field.

I submit that the fact that their flurry of blows ability (which is the only way for them to really do damage and thus have an impact) requires a full attack action makes their role desperately confused.

I believe a possible change could be allowing them to make a flurry of blows as a standard action. This would allow them to really come into their own as fleet footed skirmishers.

As it stands, they can either be mobile or do (sub-par but noticeable) damage, but not both.

In my opinion, the thing that makes monks so enjoyable is their freedom of movement, why not make that a bigger part of the way they fight?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-21, 10:24 AM
Yeah, then we should definitely move on to powering up the casters. Double all their allotted spells per day, raising the save DC's by one and a half, clerics get to use arcane magic, druids don't take any damage and are immune to everything while in wild shape, etc.

shaka gl
2007-01-21, 01:53 PM
Don't forget the poor Wizard. He should be able to sponatneously cast anything he knows.

Edit: wow, I just saw "Dimension Door can be game-breaking at level 12" in the OP.

I... I guess the person doesn't realize it's a fourth level spell? You know, castable by wizards at level 7? And that at 9th Teleport is availible?

Im not saying that Dimension Door is broken. Im saying it doesnt make sense in the monk class... well, theres nothing that makes sense in that class, but DD makes even less...

Ramza00
2007-01-21, 02:50 PM
Seriously you just should play a swordsage over a monk. 80% of the abilities of a monk can be done by a swordsage manuevers/stances, the teleporting, the flurry of blows, the fasters speed (well not all the monk speed), additionally you get some unique and more powerful abilities, instead of getting a flurry that hits 2 extra targets you can get one that hits 4 extra targets.

If you don't want to do pure swordsage, do a monk 2/swordsage 18.

Iudex Fatarum
2007-01-22, 09:09 AM
I personaly love monks because while they are never the best, they have so many different abilities they can fulfil lots of tasks other party members can do better but the monk can be backup. I.E. rogue gets caught the monk is who you would send in, or if the fighter needs someone near by to help him with flanking or the rogue needs a flanking partner, the monk has tumble. monks are the jack of all trades master of none. oh and they are one of the few characters who excells at mage killing, fast movement, no weapons to get hurt, and all good saves.

the_tick_rules
2007-01-22, 07:21 PM
well i've said it before but remember the classes are designed to work together against enemies. high level sorcerers can beat fighters but a fighter/wizard team can have more benefits than 2 wizards alone. the monsters have speical abilities that sometimes makes to quote OOTS "hitting them with a stick" a desirable option.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-22, 07:24 PM
a fighter/wizard team can have more benefits than 2 wizards alone.

At low levels, sure. At high ones, that stops being true.
At "worst", one of the wizards should be a gish (i.e. Fighter 1/Wiz 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7), but even without that--totally not true. Especially when you consider that wizards can and do summon things.

Rei_Jin
2007-01-22, 07:32 PM
Lol. Monks only need one thing to balance them, as far as I'm Concerned.

A Full Base Attack Bonus. How the hell can something be classified a martial class without a Full Base Attack Bonus?

But other than that, they're fine.

The only thing that I've house-ruled is that if a player spends a feat on it, they can apply their monk damage to a weapon they are proficient in. This also includes stunning fist and other squishy things like that.

It could possibly be broken, but the only people I know who play Monks are doing so for RP reasons, and allowing them to be the master of a specific weapon works fine for me.

TimeWizard
2007-01-22, 07:47 PM
Full BAB would end with +20/+20/+20/+15+/+10/+5, which is just nuts. What about haste? oh god. It's been said before but the monk's true strength is the ability to back up the fellow PC's: fight with the fighter, scout with the rogue, "face" with the sorcerer, and, well CoDzilla doesn't need any help.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-22, 07:52 PM
Unarmed damage? Monks still end up miles behind fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, rogues, and most everyone else in the entire game in the damage department. The only class I can see the monk out damaging is the bard, and the bard has so many things he should be doing before frontline combat it doesn't even matter.

I would disagree with this.

Base damage for 20th level monk is 2d8. For a large race, it is 4d8.

So, get a Fighter4/Monk15/FoZ1. You've got a BAB of +16 (assuming you use the percentages method rather than just numbers from the book), which gives you an extra attack, and get Expansion from your Fist of Zuoken monk PrC. This increases your size one category (or just go Fig4/Mnk16 And get a wizard to Permenancy an Enlarge Person). Grab a monk's belt to increase your damage back up to what a 20 monk should have. If you started out a Medium race, you now do 4d8 per hit. That's pretty impressive damage. If you started out Large (or Powerful Build), then you're doing 8d8, with a whole pile of attacks.

Now then, you've got some bonus feats from the Fighter4. What are we going to do with 'em? Easy. Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper. Now you've got +16 damage on every hit, by sacrificing AC. Grab Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip as monk bonus feats. Then take Karmic Strike at some point. So you've got 6 attacks on a full attack, each one doing 4d8+16, and anyone who tries to close with you or successfully hits you provokes an AoO which you use to trip and make a free attack for 4d8+16. When they get back up, that provokes another AoO for more damage.

I fail to see how monks are weak in the damage dealing department...

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-22, 08:03 PM
Full BAB would end with +20/+20/+20/+15+/+10/+5, which is just nuts. What about haste? oh god. It's been said before but the monk's true strength is the ability to back up the fellow PC's: fight with the fighter, scout with the rogue, "face" with the sorcerer, and, well CoDzilla doesn't need any help.

I dunno, man, what about haste? It's not like that attack routine would break the game or anything. Dervishes can do better, and they don't.