Sha'ir Question

[HereBeMonsters]

Is it worth the waiting periods?
I know they are not ungodly if handled right but still seems to be a lot of forthought required.

If you gestalted this with spirit shaman would they trip each other up? I know they wod be MAD but what else?

What class in 3.5 or PF would synch well to cover its weakness?

[Psyren]

Is it worth the waiting periods?

Definitely, though it can crimp just a bit at the very lowest levels. Early on you can treat them like a sorcerer, relying on a smaller subset of spells known that you can retrieve quickly and reliably enough that they feel like spontaneous casters of that subset. Note that it will take a minimum of 2 rounds to grab even a 1st-level spell, and can take as many as 6 for that level, so be proactive about this (i.e. try not to wait until combat starts, or it may well be over by the time you get the magic you requested.) Grab a few spells right when you arrive at the dungeon - combat is unlikely to take another hour to start then - and just before the hour is up grab a few more. After a fight, I find most games give you several rounds or even a couple of minutes to get your bearings, loot, search the area etc - during this natural break, your gen can head out and stock you up for the next. As you gain levels, you can roll the retrieval time back further and further until you're sending the gen out in the morning while the other spellcasters are meditating, studying their spellbooks and/or praying, and keeping your spells all day until cast just like they do.

The Diplomacy check is something else to be cognizant of at low levels:
It's a flat DC 20; a 1st-level Sha'ir will have 4 ranks (Diplomacy is a class skill), plus a Charisma bonus of anywhere from 3-5 (most likely 4), +2 for the spell being Known, and +1 for their Sha'ir levels, for an expected total of around +11, i.e. a 55% chance to succeed. You can add in SF: Diplomacy for an additional +2, and/or SS: Silvertongue Mask for an additional +4 or more. Cheesier additions like LA 0 templates, item familiars, dragonwrought kobold and the like can get it much higher but I tend to dislike such options myself so I'll leave them up to other DMs.

At each spell level the check takes a -2 penalty, however you're also going up by +4 each spell level (2 ranks, +2 sha'ir levels, at least until you PrC out, not counting increases to Charisma from levels and gear.) Thus, at least until level 6 or so, your check will be going up by a net minimum of +2 i.e. getting at least 10% easier each time you gain a new level of spells. Pretty soon known arcane spells will be automatic, followed by unknown arcanes, then known divines, and lastly unknown divines.

There is also no penalty if the gen fails outside of combat, so if you don't get the spell just send it again, and don't worry about alerting any baddies in the dungeon as the gen hopping in and out is a SLA and thus silent.

Avoid divine spells in the beginning -they won't stick around long enough to be worth the long wait. Similarly, avoid unknown arcane spells - even if you have a few minutes to wait for them, losing the +2 bonus for a known spell can cause your gen to be detained on a bad roll.

By the level 4-8 range any spells you pick up in the morning will stick around throughout the adventuring day. At this point they're really no different than a wizard, only Cha-based, and they can leave a handful of slots open (no more than 1 or 2 per spell level, and likely even less than that) for any "wild-card" spells the party may need.

The Sha'ir's biggest weakness at high levels is that they can't get spells at all if the area they're in is Dimensionally Locked, Forbidden, or planar travel is otherwise restricted, because the gen can't leave. A high-level Sha'ir seeking to live on a safe demiplane would do well to make use of Tippy's Selective Spell trick, and Sha'ir need to be careful when adventuring in areas where planar travel is restricted, such as the deeper levels of Baator/the Abyss. The upside of course is that they never have to expend resources protecting a spellbook or on a suite of backup magical items for situational spells.

Finally, with Bluff and Diplomacy in-class, they can make a decent face as well as primary caster.



If you gestalted this with spirit shaman would they trip each other up? I know they wod be MAD but what else?

Not sure what you mean by "trip each other up." They'd be two very high-tier classes working together, by definition there's nothing you wouldn't be able to pull off with that combination if you had the skill.

I guess the main issue I have with the combination is that these two don't offer each other much beyond some stat synergy. Personally I would rather gestalt Sha'ir with Shugenja, both for total SADness and for the strong flavor synergy of being elemental-focused.



What class in 3.5 or PF would synch well to cover its weakness?

My personal favorite partner choice for them is Warlock. There's a few reasons for this:

1) Stat synergy - both classes use Cha as their only casting stat.

2) Action synergy - Warlocks' 24-hour buffs make them a great "passive side" to an "active/passive" theurge or gestalt combo. And if the gen is out retrieving a spell when trouble shows up, the Sha'irlock can rely on his eldritch blast and invocations to "cast" with until it gets back.

3) UMD - Warlocks and most Warlock PrCs (including eldritch theurge) get this great skill as a class skill. This is good news for a sha'ir both because items give it a way to "cast" while the gen is out retrieving something, and ID'ing a spell from an item allows it to be picked up later by the gen even if it isn't a spell known. (e.g. you find a scroll you can't identify, so you activate it blindly via UMD, and it turns out to be a spell like Contact Other Plane that you can send your gen for in the future. And being Cha-based you're very likely to pull it off.

4) Theurge potential - As Sha'ir are both arcane and divine casters, you can get them into both Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple. The latter only requires a single Sacred Exorcist dip or using the ED adaptation to remove the turn undead requirement. In exchange, you get Cha-SADness, 9th-level spells+Dark Invocations, great class features (e.g. both kinds of spellweave), and the other benefits listed above.

5) Flavor synergy -Warlock power typically comes from an individual's ancestor making a pact with (or simply being chosen by) a fey or extraplanar entity, usually a fiend. However - Rather than a fiend, that outsider can easily be a genie, who are just as immortal and just as prone to forming contracts of servitude with mortal races. The same efreet who granted someone's ancestor warlock-like powers can also be the entity to which their gen grovels for further magic, resulting in a rich backstory for that individual (who may not even be aware that his two avenues of power share a common source.) In addition, genies don't have to be evil - the entity can be a djinn, jann or marid instead, allowing that individual to explore non-evil avenues to power.

[HereBeMonsters]

When you say that known arcane spells wod become automatic what do you mean isnt the minimum wait time for a level 1 known spell 2 rounds?

[Psyren]

When you say that known arcane spells wod become automatic what do you mean isnt the minimum wait time for a level 1 known spell 2 rounds?

By automatic I mean you will autosucceed on the Diplomacy check eventually and your gen will never come back empty handed. (Skill checks don't fail on a 1, so if you get the check high enough eventually you will not need to even roll.)

For the wait time: An arcane spell known takes 1d4 rounds + 1 round per spell level. So a 1st-level spell will take a minimum of 2 rounds to retrieve (1+1) and a maximum of 5.

[Gamereaper]

By RAW, do they get unlimited spells to use over the course of the day since you're having your Gen retrieve them?

[Psyren]

By RAW, do they get unlimited spells to use over the course of the day since you're having your Gen retrieve them?

No, they still have limited spells/day; a retrieved spell cannot be prepared in an expended spell slot any more than a wizard can whip out his spellbook during the day and refill a slot he has used that day.

However, it is ambiguous what happens to a slot if a spell simply drains out of it due to not being cast. The favorable interpretation is that the slot can be refilled any number of times until it is actually used.

[Gadora]

The Sha'ir's biggest weakness at high levels is that they can't get spells at all if the area they're in is Dimensionally Locked, Forbidden, or planar travel is otherwise restricted, because the gen can't leave. A high-level Sha'ir seeking to live on a safe demiplane would do well to make use of Tippy's Selective Spell trick, and Sha'ir need to be careful when adventuring in areas where planar travel is restricted, such as the deeper levels of Baator/the Abyss. The upside of course is that they never have to expend resources protecting a spellbook or on a suite of backup magical items for situational spells.

Just a quick little nitpick, but... can't the gen only function effectively on the material or elemental planes? That is to say, with spell retrieval requiring the gen to head to the elemental planes and then return, how can the sha'ir function anywhere in Baator or the Abyss? Or on their private demiplane, for that matter?

[Psyren]

Just a quick little nitpick, but... can't the gen only function effectively on the material or elemental planes? That is to say, with spell retrieval requiring the gen to head to the elemental planes and then return, how can the sha'ir function anywhere in Baator or the Abyss? Or on their private demiplane, for that matter?

That's what I said :smalltongue: they may have difficulty on those places unless the Sha'ir is able to override the planar travel restrictions in place there.

[Chronos]

If you're retrieving your spells in the morning preparation hour, or just before you enter the dungeon, couldn't you just take 10 on the Diplomacy check? That'd make your known spells guaranteed right from level 1, and even your unknown arcane spells very soon thereafter.

[Gadora]

That's what I said :smalltongue: they may have difficulty on those places unless the Sha'ir is able to override the planar travel restrictions in place there.

You were talking about how the gen can't leave. I was trying to point out that, even when it can leave, if you're not in one of the five planes it can access (only one of which I really hear about characters adventuring on), it can't return.

Nitpicky, yes, but I think that's somewhat distinct from what you were talking about.