Sorcerer compared to Sha'ir

[Gamereaper]

From what I can tell, a Sha'ir is pretty much the same as a sorcerer with fluff and a slight difference.

Can anyone go in depth on this. I don't really understand how a Sha'ir works. Like simplify it a bit for me. (?)

[Kennisiou]

In essence...

Sha'ir is a full list arcane caster whose means of preparation is to send his familiar to the outer planes to bring him back spells from the sorceror spell list. He can send them and receive the spells quickly if he has learned them them, and if he's not but is familiar with them (as a result of having seen them and identified them with a successful spellcraft check) he can still receive the spells he wants but it takes longer. He can also ask them to retrieve divine spells as long as they're domain spells from any of the alignment or elemental domains.

Sha'ir is kind of a "tier 1.5" caster. They have their full list, but their access to it is restricted -- and more heavily than wizard, erudite, or archivist. They're capable of campaign imploding power in the same way all the t2 and t1 casters are, but if he wants campaign-imploding flexibility he has to have the time to send his gen to get the spells he wants -- if he's pressed for time he'd better have already retrieved the spell or he's in trouble (for this reason it's a good idea to nab important "oh **** keep me from dying" spells like feather fall and knock in the morning and save your castings of them until needed).

[Gamereaper]

So can you get more spells to use per day?

I have another question, can you send your Gen out for an extended period of time? Like I'm getting captured, they come sometime later and I tell them to grab spells to help me get out.

[Kennisiou]

Your spells/day list is like any other class: as listed plus bonus spells based on your key casting stat. That said, you have infinite spells retrieved by RAW, as there's no limitation to them. By the RAW, you can even retrieve more spells than you can cast, meaning if you think you'll use a spell multiple times a day you can retrieve more than just one of them and then leave them prepared while retrieving spells of that level as needed, so keeping useful just-in-case spells like feather fall or knock prepared all day through retrieval doesn't stop you from being able to retrieve and cast other level one or two spells in their place.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Sha'ir is kind of a "tier 1.5" caster. They have their full list, but their access to it is restricted -- and more heavily than wizard, erudite, or archivist. They're capable of campaign imploding power in the same way all the t2 and t1 casters are, but if he wants campaign-imploding flexibility he has to have the time to send his gen to get the spells he wants -- if he's pressed for time he'd better have already retrieved the spell or he's in trouble (for this reason it's a good idea to nab important "oh **** keep me from dying" spells like feather fall and knock in the morning and save your castings of them until needed).

The sha'ir is a full fledged T1. The definition of T1 is having gamebreaking spells/powers and being able to change them out which the Sha'ir can do. Wizards have to take an hour on top of resting time to prepare spells ahead of time so a Sha'ir can get some time to send their gen out for spells he/she knows are generally useful. They also can use scrolls/wands/staves just as well as sorcerers and wizards can if they don't have a spell prepared.

[Gamereaper]

Can I have a Gen retrieve more spells while I still have some?

[Kennisiou]

Yes.

Pretty sure that, by RAW, you can even have a gen retrieve spells when you're out of spells per day.

[Gamereaper]

Pretty sure that, by RAW, you can even have a gen retrieve spells when you're out of spells per day.

And use them?!?

[Kennisiou]

You have to have spells/day left to cast spells. The point is you can retrieve spells even if you can't cast them, as long as you would be able to cast them.

[Psyren]

Sha'ir are prepared casters - this means they can benefit from prepared-friendly PrCs like MotAO. In fact, they can even use their divine side to get into Skypledged and access the whole cleric list (well, minus some [Earth] spells.)

[nedz]

I think Sha'ir are possibly above T1 since they can prepare any spell on the fly, just not necessarily in combat. They are not limited by a spellbook and cast off the Wizard list plus a few domains. Their spells known are just the ones they can prepare more quickly.

[Jurai]

Full Wizard/Sorcerer casting, retrieve spells basically at will, Diplomacy check, AND eight domains? Tier 1. That said, it's better in Gestalt just like all Tier 1, although it's especially good if your passive side is a Diplomancer.

[Waker]

Sha'ir especially benefit from taking feats like Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand and the like. Since they effectively have every Sorc/Wiz spell and several domains at their fingertips, they can craft a fairly good size pile of spells that would see frequent use and put a few of the less common in reserve.

[FMArthur]

Honestly, just don't play it. Every single aspect of the sha'ir preparation/casting method is obnoxiously overwrought with no concern given to gameflow or to enjoyability at all levels. It slows down the game.

There are a bunch of ways to add spontaneity to a wizard and preparation to a sorcerer, and a few ways to get domains as well. An Uncanny Forethought wizard is a big one, but in addition you can just leave a slot open and take 15 minutes to prepare a spell or two, as a normal wizard feature.

[Psyren]

There are a bunch of ways to add spontaneity to a wizard and preparation to a sorcerer, and a few ways to get domains as well. An Uncanny Forethought wizard is a big one, but in addition you can just leave a slot open and take 15 minutes to prepare a spell or two, as a normal wizard feature.

A Sha'ir is going to take much less time than 15 minutes to prepare on the fly though. In addition, they don't need tranquil conditions to prepare spells, so they can prepare on a bumpy wagonride or on a ship at stormy sea.

Furthermore there is the "blue mage" aspect to them. They identify a spell once and they can prepare it for life after that - no hunting for scrolls, no being locked in to a tiny list, just "yeah I saw him cast X that one time, that could be useful."

They also get some useful spells much earlier than sorcerers (e.g. Stone Shape and Control Water) and can prepare very useful divine spells like Miracle and Dictum.

[Gamereaper]

Honestly, just don't play it. Every single aspect of the sha'ir preparation/casting method is obnoxiously overwrought with no concern given to gameflow or to enjoyability at all levels. It slows down the game.

There are a bunch of ways to add spontaneity to a wizard and preparation to a sorcerer, and a few ways to get domains as well. An Uncanny Forethought wizard is a big one, but in addition you can just leave a slot open and take 15 minutes to prepare a spell or two, as a normal wizard feature.

I'm taking it with Warlock to go into Eldritch Theurge followed by a level in Sacred Exorcist, and lastly Eldritch Disciple.

If it's possible, I take Practiced Spellcaster in Eldritch Theurge to level up both classes.

[Psyren]

PS won't work with ET because ET is not a spellcasting class itself. You will have to take it for Sha'ir, and it doesn't appear you can use PS with Warlock at all by RAW.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A Sha'ir is going to take much less time than 15 minutes to prepare on the fly though. In addition, they don't need tranquil conditions to prepare spells, so they can prepare on a bumpy wagonride or on a ship at stormy sea.
Only if you're preparing from your "spells known" (which would be better labelled as "rote spells" or something, but I digress).

Assuming an Int score of 30, it'll take a sha'ir an average of 12.35 minutes to retrieve all his spells if he's using only "spells known," but 17.29 hours if he's using only arcane spells not on his list. Let's not even talk about divine spells; they take so long you should only use 'em for crafting.

That being said, you probably shouldn't be preparing all your spells at once. Retrieve a combat encounter's worth of spells at the beginning of the day, and send your gen out for non-combat spells as needed.

[Chronos]

Assuming an Int score of 30, it'll take a sha'ir an average of 12.35 minutes to retrieve all his spells if he's using only "spells known," but 17.29 hours if he's using only arcane spells not on his list.
Sure, but you'd never want to do that, anyway. Even wizards, who can change their day's selection of spells entirely every day without penalty, will still almost always take mostly the same selection of spells. Just choose those spells that you almost always want as your spells known, and then take a small handful of unknown spells each day to fill in for whatever special needs or intel you happen to have.

[Fouredged Sword]

It does allow you to not need to know and long term buffs like mage armor, and leave your spells known for things that you will need in combat.

Also, utility spells like teleport are not needed as spells known.

Unlike a wizard or sorcerer, you can alter your spell set in the middle of the work day without having to leave spell slots open. A wizard can't reprepare an already prepared spell slot. A Sha'ir can prep more spells than he can cast and use the best option for a given situation.