21st level commoner

[No brains]

I once asked what a 20th level commoner was equivalent to in player character class levels. I got something like a 6th level fighter by a generous estimate (and some don't consider that a character class).

What I'm curious about now is how a commoner who can take advantage of epic level rules would mesh with a party. Assume a human commoner 21 with 18 in all abilities (increased as most useful at 21st) with skill points spent as usefully as a commoner could. Are they fun encounter for a level 4 warblade and wizard? Do epic rules allow for crazy things that could let a commoner be useful?

[Kennisiou]

If they have epic WBL, they're probably way too strong for the party to fight if built properly. A level 21 fighter is often a challenge for even higher level wizards (12-16-ish, by the time they have 9th level spells and at TO can start doing absurd stuff like stacking up ice assassins they should be able to find some answer to epic absurdity, and may even have issues with them before that).

If you're using the chicken-infested flaw and any cheese with that, the commoner class is occasionally referred to as being "tier 2" but the RAW with their immediate infinite chickens is shaky at best.

[Coidzor]

I once asked what a 20th level commoner was equivalent to in player character class levels. I got something like a 6th level fighter by a generous estimate (and some don't consider that a character class).

What I'm curious about now is how a commoner who can take advantage of epic level rules would mesh with a party. Assume a human commoner 21 with 18 in all abilities (increased as most useful at 21st) with skill points spent as usefully as a commoner could. Are they fun encounter for a level 4 warblade and wizard? Do epic rules allow for crazy things that could let a commoner be useful?

Just through their gear(even NPC WBL at epic levels is pretty crazy, especially compared to low level PCs) and number of HD they'd likely be able to resist most of the things that a Wizard could do to them. It's got a +10 on all saving throws compared to a DC 16-18 likely max on the saves for the wizard's spells. The Commoner is going to have a trivial time hitting the party with a +14 minimum on attack rolls when their ACs are unlikely to be higher than 21.

The Epic Commoner also has a number of feats that can be used to greatly increase its threat and tricks it can bring to bear.

[Bigbeefie]

I once asked what a 20th level commoner was equivalent to in player character class levels. I got something like a 6th level fighter by a generous estimate (and some don't consider that a character class).

What I'm curious about now is how a commoner who can take advantage of epic level rules would mesh with a party. Assume a human commoner 21 with 18 in all abilities (increased as most useful at 21st) with skill points spent as usefully as a commoner could. Are they fun encounter for a level 4 warblade and wizard? Do epic rules allow for crazy things that could let a commoner be useful?

Roll a level 21 cleric and have him fall from grace loosing his cleric powers. Now you have a 21 commoner. Lol

[Ivanhoe]

Epic level commoner - sounds like a Tom Bombadil (LotR) character to me ...:smallamused:

[OldTrees1]

LA Buyoff? If so then take that race that has Sorcer casting equal to your total HD, obtain Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft as class skills, max those skills and top it off with Epic Spellcasting.

ECL 22? before LA buyoff

[eastmabl]

Roll a level 21 cleric and have him fall from grace loosing his cleric powers. Now you have a 21 commoner. Lol

I think the ex-cleric would be more akin to a Warrior 21 with a better will save than a Commoner 21.

[Bigbeefie]

I think the ex-cleric would be more akin to a Warrior 21 with a better will save than a Commoner 21.

No where near the same amount of feats, HP, and BAB. A fallen cleric is no where near a Fighter in martial ability and most people who have played a cleric that lost his power knows how weak they are.

And it was a joke for people who know a lvl 21 fallen cleric is a useless class.

[eggynack]

No where near the same amount of feats, HP, and BAB. A fallen cleric is no where near a Fighter in martial ability and most people who have played a cleric that lost his power knows how weak they are.

And it was a joke for people who know a lvl 21 fallen cleric is a useless class.
He said warrior. As in this warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/warrior.htm). The ex-cleric has a better skill list, better saves, worse BAB, and worse proficiencies. They're roughly comparable, in other words, and the ex-cleric chassis is certainly better than that held by a commoner.

[Bigbeefie]

He said warrior. As in this warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/warrior.htm). The ex-cleric has a better skill list, better saves, worse BAB, and worse proficiencies. They're roughly comparable, in other words, and the ex-cleric chassis is certainly better than that held by a commoner.

Again it was a ****ing joke not meant to be taken seriously. But seriously a lvl 21 commoner is a joke as well and just plain stupid.

[eggynack]

Again it was a ****ing joke not meant to be taken seriously. But seriously a lvl 21 commoner is a joke as well and just plain stupid.
Doesn't really make the thing you said less in error, especially because the thing I quoted was an incorrect correction of someone else. Anyway, it's a thought experiment. Taking weird things to wacky extremes can yield all kinds of fun results.

[Slipperychicken]

Epic level commoner - sounds like a Tom Bombadil (LotR) character to me ...:smallamused:

I don't know, he seems to have magic powers. I like to think he's some kind of Divine Rank 1 native outsider.

[Coidzor]

Roll a level 21 cleric and have him fall from grace loosing his cleric powers. Now you have a 21 commoner. Lol

Yeah (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm), no (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/commoner.htm). Even an Ex-Cleric has more going for them than a Commoner.


I think the ex-cleric would be more akin to a Warrior 21 with a better will save than a Commoner 21.

Compared to the Commoner, the Ex-Cleric 21 has better Fortitude and Will saves, better BAB, better HP, and, without assigning the Commoner 21 base stats of 18 in all ability scores, better ability scores.

[sideswipe]

Again it was a ****ing joke not meant to be taken seriously. But seriously a lvl 21 commoner is a joke as well and just plain stupid.

by the rules outlined by level structures in cities... in a metropolis sized city there will be epic level characters.

since 93% of the people in D&D are commoners it is safe to say that in a metropolis you would get epic level commoners. they would be guild leaders. not like assassins guild, but like farmers guild. carpenters guild. some of the high level politicians would not have been born as aristocrats. they would have been commoners.

[chaos_redefined]

The epic feat in question is Epic Skill Focus(Farming)?

[Kennisiou]

by the rules outlined by level structures in cities... in a metropolis sized city there will be epic level characters.

since 93% of the people in D&D are commoners it is safe to say that in a metropolis you would get epic level commoners. they would be guild leaders. not like assassins guild, but like farmers guild. carpenters guild. some of the high level politicians would not have been born as aristocrats. they would have been commoners.

In a metropolis you are unlikely to find even a single epic level character. Most metropoloses (metropoli? metropolod?) don't even have a level 20. You're usually looking at, like, a level 16 at best.

[No brains]

Just through their gear(even NPC WBL at epic levels is pretty crazy, especially compared to low level PCs) and number of HD they'd likely be able to resist most of the things that a Wizard could do to them. It's got a +10 on all saving throws compared to a DC 16-18 likely max on the saves for the wizard's spells. The Commoner is going to have a trivial time hitting the party with a +14 minimum on attack rolls when their ACs are unlikely to be higher than 21.

The Epic Commoner also has a number of feats that can be used to greatly increase its threat and tricks it can bring to bear.

From what you mentioned, it would seem to me that a commoner 21 would probably be around CR 14. They can resist most non-hp effects pretty well with their saves, HD, and possible magic items. The encounter would probably run something like a wizard/sorcerer NPC, probably having versatile or carefully prepared magic/

[SowZ]

Again it was a ****ing joke not meant to be taken seriously. But seriously a lvl 21 commoner is a joke as well and just plain stupid.

A wizard without a spellbook should mostly work.

[Coidzor]

From what you mentioned, it would seem to me that a commoner 21 would probably be around CR 14. They can resist most non-hp effects pretty well with their saves, HD, and possible magic items. The encounter would probably run something like a wizard/sorcerer NPC, probably having versatile or carefully prepared magic/

They've got the BAB of a Warrior 10, the Saves of a Monk 8, HP comparable to a Warrior(or other character with a d8 HD) 11 to 12 (before factoring in Constitution), the ability to get 24 ranks in just about whatever skill they choose through their feats, so they could play wizard with WBLmancy & Use Magic Device. Or act like Bubs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) with more money with which to acquire Battletitans/hirelings.

Without their wealth, they're just a fairly sturdy threat. With their wealth and mental ability scores, they shouldn't be a personal threat, so much as an organizational threat, and personally overpowering to the majority of 4th level characters.


A wizard without a spellbook should mostly work.

Bingo.