adding 2nd edition casting times to 3rd edition spells

[blelliot]

This may have been covered before, but as I've recently begun playing 2nd edition, I've noticed that the casting times of the spells seems to be TSR's way of balancing magic. Has anyone out there thought to do something similar to this idea for 3rd edition, and if so, how did it work out?

[Alefiend]

I've never tried it myself, but whenever there's a discussion about reducing tier 1-2 dominance, I suggest bringing back casting times (which are actually from 1st Ed. AD&D, if not Basic).

There are problems, of course. For example, I can't recall a single instance from my AD&D days where we actually used casting times. The older initiative system had separate action and resolution phases, and a limited 10-segment round for initiative counts. This meant that your wizard might start casting a spell in Round 1 and not have it resolve until sometime in Round 2, which led to a lot of wasted spells and annoying bean-counting.

This, and more, led to 3E switching to standard, full-round, and 1-round casting times. It was easier to track, and everybody got to do something on their turn that took immediate effect. Even now, I've seen lots of games where the casting time for Summon X spells is ignored, brought down to a standard action.

One alternative I've considered is to scale the casting time to a different standard, based on relative ease. I haven't completely worked it out, but the general idea is this, for standard-action spells:

Spells of the highest level you can cast take one round, instead of a standard action
Spells one level lower than your highest take a full-round action, instead of a standard action.
Spells two or more levels below your highest take a standard action, as normal.
1st- and 2nd-level standard-action spells are exempt from this rule, and always take a standard action.

Again, I haven't fully developed this idea, nor has it been playtested at all. It doesn't account for spells with native full-round or 1-round casting times, though I suppose they could be left as-is.

[Elderand]

You may want to look at the thieve's world campaign setting by green ronin.
They did make magic take longer to cast, amongst other things.

[Perseus]

A house rule a came up with does something like you want.

1: metamagic reducing doesn't stack
2: you take a penalty to your initiative starting the round after you cast a spell. This penalty is equal to the (negative) effective spell level for the spell cast.
3: Your initiative continues to lower until you are the last one to react for the round.

This works if you aren't rocket tagging every fricken thing but I've seen it work wonders in low to mid optimized game.

This allows you act every round and yet have casting a spell have an actual drawback. The longer the battle goes on the slower your character becomes and such.

Only draw back is it almost pushes mages to act first and hard a la rocket tag. But if you have that low to mid optimized group this shouldn't be to much of a problem.

[bekeleven]

This works if you aren't rocket tagging every fricken thing but I've seen it work wonders in low to mid optimized game.

[...]

Only draw back is it almost pushes mages to act first and hard a la rocket tag.
So the only drawback is that in the process of obsoleting itself it also wrecks your game balance worse than when you started?

[Perseus]

So the only drawback is that in the process of obsoleting itself it also wrecks your game balance worse than when you started?

No.

Powergamers will power game and you get rocket tag (or whatever). If you have players that don't power game then this won't make them power game anymore than what the normal rules pushes you to do. I should have said it would seem to push them into rocket tag more, but really it doesn't anymore than the normal rules do.

It however adds flavor to the magic system and will make nuking a less than beautiful option since there are ways to defend against some stuff.

If you throw a quickened spell the first round of the battle you better hope that it hits because if it doesn't then that creature(s) will get to attack and then attack a second time (depending on initiative).

This system also helps players out since the higher the level the more spells creatures get. This will force a DM to use better tactics than just cast and cast (I was a player in many of games where the mage/cleric pelted the group with spells.

This rule didn't apply to some PC classes that got at-will not-magic (Su) that was tier 4ish or below. They have a hard enough time you know.

Also I think magic items that have spell effects (wands, rods, and scrolls) was under this rule too... If I remember correctly.

[Karoht]

So the only drawback is that in the process of obsoleting itself it also wrecks your game balance worse than when you started?And to back this up, the minute you get to spells like Celerity such penalties become incredibly non-relevant, as a caster can literally chose when to go if push comes to shove.
It also does little to address contingent effects, but that is late game, not early or mid.
The initiative penalty suggestion only really affects low level casters, and casters without absurd initiatives at that.

[MirddinEmris]

It doesn't change a real strength of T1 - preparation. Like minionomancy or planar binding, or teleportaion, or divination, or...many other things, really. More so, it will only encourage players to use this tactics because in-combat solutions will be harder and longer.

[Perseus]

And to back this up, the minute you get to spells like Celerity such penalties become incredibly non-relevant, as a caster can literally chose when to go if push comes to shove.
It also does little to address contingent effects, but that is late game, not early or mid.
The initiative penalty suggestion only really affects low level casters, and casters without absurd initiatives at that.

Who says celerity exist?

Also I like how I state low to mid op, and everyone throws in the Tolkien high op examples of casters spankong the game. Haha.

All the groups I play I'm have other House rules that addresses other aspects of the game... Or did you guys think I was posting all the house rules I've used? Sure there are holes in this but this isn't to fix everyone else's game now is it.

Edit: Apparently my phone auto corrects spanking to spankong... I dont think I've used that word or that it is a word...

[skyth]

One alternative I've considered is to scale the casting time to a different standard, based on relative ease. I haven't completely worked it out, but the general idea is this, for standard-action spells:

Spells of the highest level you can cast take one round, instead of a standard action
Spells one level lower than your highest take a full-round action, instead of a standard action.
Spells two or more levels below your highest take a standard action, as normal.
1st- and 2nd-level standard-action spells are exempt from this rule, and always take a standard action.

Do you play Rolemaster by any chance? (That's VERY similar to the spellcasting system that is used in Rolemaster)

[Chronos]

If you're going to re-introduce casting times, then you should also introduce the other aspects of it: During the interval between the caster's initial initiative count and when the spell goes off, they're busy casting the spell, and any damage delivered during this time can disrupt their concentration. This makes a big difference, because it suddenly becomes possible to disrupt casting without horribly crippling yourself in the process. If you really wanted to go all the way, you could remove the Concentration skill, and make damage auto-disrupting, just like it used to be, too.

It'd be a lot of work to introduce it, though, because you'd need to set a casting time for every spell. Yeah, most of them had a casting time equal to the spell's level, but a few (such as the Power Word spells) didn't (in fact, this was a large part of those spells' value). Plus, you'd probably want to re-scale everything: A delay of 9 steps in the initiative order meant a lot more when initiative came from a d6 roll (in which case it would guarantee that everyone would have a chance to disrupt you) than when it's a d20 roll (where, with luck, you might still end up going first).

[Perseus]

If you're going to re-introduce casting times, then you should also introduce the other aspects of it: During the interval between the caster's initial initiative count and when the spell goes off, they're busy casting the spell, and any damage delivered during this time can disrupt their concentration. This makes a big difference, because it suddenly becomes possible to disrupt casting without horribly crippling yourself in the process. If you really wanted to go all the way, you could remove the Concentration skill, and make damage auto-disrupting, just like it used to be, too.

It'd be a lot of work to introduce it, though, because you'd need to set a casting time for every spell. Yeah, most of them had a casting time equal to the spell's level, but a few (such as the Power Word spells) didn't (in fact, this was a large part of those spells' value). Plus, you'd probably want to re-scale everything: A delay of 9 steps in the initiative order meant a lot more when initiative came from a d6 roll (in which case it would guarantee that everyone would have a chance to disrupt you) than when it's a d20 roll (where, with luck, you might still end up going first).

Not damage = auto disrupting but... Hitting = auto distrupting.

In 2e the balancing factor was how easy it was to disteupt casters that riding horseback and wind could easily stop casters.

No casting defensively too, make the caster earn that spell casting.

I play both 2e and 3e and I've found that casting a spell in 2e was more rewarding experience. But that is just me.

[Illven]

A house rule a came up with does something like you want.

1: metamagic reducing doesn't stack
2: you take a penalty to your initiative starting the round after you cast a spell. This penalty is equal to the (negative) effective spell level for the spell cast.
3: Your initiative continues to lower until you are the last one to react for the round.

(At 2+3) So what if spellcasting is your classes only contribution? Then you either get to sit around useless, or feel punished for doing anything.

[Perseus]

(At 2+3) So what if spellcasting is your classes only contribution? Then you either get to sit around useless, or feel punished for doing anything.

You get to act every round.

If your initiativw is 15 and you cast a first level spell then your next initiative is 14. You act on a 14, my groups always use a small white board for initiative so it is easy to track (even before this rule).

Your initiative is now 14 and you now want to cast a level 4 spell. Your next round initiative is 10.

So I'm not sure how you are just sitting around useless?

You aren't being punished if a majority of magic is used this way, you are telling the laws of physics to "shut up and sit down"... Why isn't there a drawback that actually effects your character?

[Karoht]

(At 2+3) So what if spellcasting is your classes only contribution? Then you either get to sit around useless, or feel punished for doing anything.Going last still means you get to go.
And if "spellcasting is your classes only contribution," chances are the class is a Tier 1 already. Which is typically a very very big contribution to a party, unless you are a very low op Tier 1 caster.

Illven, you play with Acanous. Ask him about how to hit a 60+ initiative. You could cast several 9th level spells and still be going first with something like that. Heck, I'm pretty sure Acanous has a method for breaking 80+. And I'm sure other players have probably already broken 100+. Think about that, you'd have to cast 10 spells at 9th level in order to be back down to 10 initiative. If you have a single encounter where you cast 10 spells at 9th level, and the encounter isn't over, something is very very screwy, or there is a heavy dose of DM fiat or something.

TL:DR-Such a ruling involving an initiative penalty would only muck up low level casters, and even then, not for long. Going last isn't the worst thing in the world.

[Perseus]

Going last still means you get to go.
And if "spellcasting is your classes only contribution," chances are the class is a Tier 1 already. Which is typically a very very big contribution to a party, unless you are a very low op Tier 1 caster.

Illven, you play with Acanous. Ask him about how to hit a 60+ initiative. You could cast several 9th level spells and still be going first with something like that. Heck, I'm pretty sure Acanous has a method for breaking 80+. And I'm sure other players have probably already broken 100+. Think about that, you'd have to cast 10 spells at 9th level in order to be back down to 10 initiative. If you have a single encounter where you cast 10 spells at 9th level, and the encounter isn't over, something is very very screwy, or there is a heavy dose of DM fiat or something.

TL:DR-Such a ruling involving an initiative penalty would only muck up low level casters, and even then, not for long. Going last isn't the worst thing in the world.

Why does the internet, well at least GitP, always assume high optimization even when people talk low to mid optimization?

Also, when my groups do optimize, whoever the DM is is expected to optimize the enemies... Sooo that +60 to initiative won't always be that impressive.

This ruling can work with high optimization however it wasn't made for high optimization games.

[Karoht]

Why does the internet, well at least GitP, always assume high optimization even when people talk low to mid optimization?
Because players do whatever players do. That is the nature of optimization. If the option exists for better, you better plan for better, because it can and will be used against you. Plan for the worst, hope for the best, it's a two way street.

Handing out a penalty as a means of 'balancing' someone without expecting them to bother trying to overcome it because 'low op' is like protecting a bank vault by leaving a glass wall because you expect the robbers to only bring a sack with a dollar sign on it and not to bother to remember to bring a brick or a hammer, or a good sturdy boot, relying on the trope of 'crooks is dumb.'


Also, when my groups do optimize, whoever the DM is is expected to optimize the enemies... Sooo that +60 to initiative won't always be that impressive.Show me any creature in the monster manuals (not DM fiat or 3rd party) appropriate for a ECL15 party that can beat that initiative (60+) reliably. The minute you start throwing those at a party, a party can and often will find a solution (escalating to 80+ or higher).


This ruling can work with high optimization however it wasn't made for high optimization games.So if it's made for low op parties, why is a low op caster giving enough trouble to facilitate the rule? Who then is this ruleset oriented towards?

[Perseus]

Because players do whatever players do. That is the nature of optimization. If the option exists for better, you better plan for better, because it can and will be used against you. Plan for the worst, hope for the best, it's a two way street.

Handing out a penalty as a means of 'balancing' someone without expecting them to bother trying to overcome it because 'low op' is like protecting a bank vault by leaving a glass wall because you expect the robbers to only bring a sack with a dollar sign on it and not to bother to remember to bring a brick or a hammer, or a good sturdy boot, relying on the trope of 'crooks is dumb.'

Show me any creature in the monster manuals (not DM fiat or 3rd party) appropriate for a ECL15 party that can beat that initiative (60+) reliably. The minute you start throwing those at a party, a party can and often will find a solution (escalating to 80+ or higher).

So if it's made for low op parties, why is a low op caster giving enough trouble to facilitate the rule? Who then is this ruleset oriented towards?

I've never seen a game where players get to run amok when a DM has a plot... Or using a premade adventure. I'm sorry but this hypothetical dream land where only what players say goes doesn't always exist (but it can). DMs all the time put limits on the game, so thinking that every answer to a d&d question must be high optimized... Is quite silly. You sound like one of the people that cry foul when the DM banned Planar Shepard (or any other high powered prestige class or choice).

Another problem with your response is that you think that the DM must only use monsters as listed in the books. There are rules for changing monsters and hell some creatures get class levels. If all you do as a DM is pull creatures out of a book when you know the party is optimized, then you are being lazy. Optimization doesn't always mean you want an easy time, perhaps I want to take on bigger challenges with higher risks? Your notion of optimization = always this is silly.

Also initiative means nothing to a enemy that is using gorilla tactics and surprising you (doesn't neccisarrily mean scry and die). But then again people cry foul when DMs use tactics and put a monsters 20 Int to use.

I think the original version of this came out because players that rely on BAB take a penalty to their second attack, mind you that it has been a while so my info is a bit fuzzy, and we asked "why doesn't magic have some sort of draw back?". There is really no reason not to cast a spell every chance you get. Even in low to medium op games spells eventually become a dime a dozen.

I find it hilarious that people get so freaked out when you add something like this to magic but if you do it to mundanes no one cares.

I have nothing more to say though, this is getting off topic.

[Person_Man]

"Casting Speed" and similar rules works fine if you have a computer to keep track of all the timing, and if the long casting time spells are actually worth it. (For example, Baldur's Gate runs on the 2nd edition rules, and it works just fine, though it's also a "real-time plus pause" mechanic. The early Final Fantasy games are turn based, have variable action times, and work fine). Without a computer, it's just a massive hassle, and I would not suggest it.

[Flickerdart]

“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors first go to war, and then seek to win."

As with all blanket "fixes" this one horribly screws over the people that were already fine - that vast majority of caster players who aren't breaking the game. Those who are good enough to be a balance concern will have sufficient game mastery to counter with things like day+ long buffs and minions, and go on wrecking things.

[Thrudd]

In 2e AD&D, a combat round is supposed to be 1 minute long. In 3e, each round is 6 seconds, which is like a 1e combat segment (10 of which go into a 1 minute combat round). Also, in AD&D initiative was rerolled every round.
Adding casting time to 3e will require some modification of the combat round and initiative. Since it is so easy to increase initiative via Dex, simply adding 2e casting time to the way initiative currently works will only end up in casters always taking dex enhancements and improved intiative. A delay of only a few initiative ticks is not usually enough to give the opponent a chance to interrupt in most cases, which is the point of requiring casting time.
One solution could be to introduce round by round initiative again, and require casters to declare their intent to cast before initiative is rolled. They are considered to be casting for the entire 6 second round, which means no move action and flat-footed/no dex bonus to AC during that time. You may want to change initiative modifiers to 1/2 dex bonus, rounded down. Casting time should equal 2x the spell level in general, since we are using a d20 instead of a d10 (except for spells which specifically say they are instantaneous, like feather fall). This means cantrips can still be cast as standard actions.
Casting time is subtracted from the initiative roll to determine when the spell goes off, it is the last thing to happen on the modified initiative number. Spells with full round casting time will always be the last thing to happen in the round regardless of your initiative roll. If, when your initiative comes up you decide you don't want to cast the spell, you can make a concentration check (wis instead of con) to voluntarily cancel the spell without losing it; for instance if the target of the spell is now gone or you can see an enemy will be able to charge you before the spell finishes. However, if you declare casting and get hit before your initiative, the spell is lost. Any successful hit automatically spoils the spell.
Example: A wizard and a fighter are engaging with three orcs. First non-surprise round, the wizard declares he will cast magic missile on the nearest orc. Initiative is rolled - wizard 15, orcs 13, fighter 10. Wizard sees that the orcs will be able to charge him before his magic missile is completed (since it will take 2 initiative ticks it won't go off until after the orcs have a chance to act on 13). He decides to make a concentration check to safely cancel his spell and move to a safer position instead. If he were to fail the concentration check, he would lose the spell. If the orcs had rolled 12 or lower, the wizard could have safely cast magic missile before they could act.
On the next round, wizard rolls 9, orcs 11, fighter 15. Wizard declares he is casting magic missile again. The fighter takes out one orc. Another orc moves closer to the wizard but is out of charge range. The third orc has a bow and takes a shot at the wizard, hitting him for 2 damage. The magic missile spell is interrupted and lost. On the wizard's turn he may now move or throw a dagger or cast a cantrip, but can't cast any spell with more than a standard action casting time until the next combat round.

[Karoht]

I've never seen a game where players get to run amok when a DM has a plot... Or using a premade adventure. I'm sorry but this hypothetical dream land where only what players say goes doesn't always exist (but it can). DMs all the time put limits on the game, so thinking that every answer to a d&d question must be high optimized... Is quite silly.The sheer amount of things the DM would potentially have to ban in order to keep absurd initiatives out of the game is pretty long. It would be an extremely ham fisted approach to try and curb casters, and largely for no reason. No DM can be expected to know every source of initiative boosting ability and ban some but not all, and not screw over everyone that isn't a caster at the same time.
Along with everything else a caster can do to break the game and head it off. Yeah, Rule Zero, but you can't Rule Zero too much or it crosses the line to arbitrary doses of DM Fiat.


You sound like one of the people that cry foul when the DM banned Planar Shepard (or any other high powered prestige class or choice).Ad Hom harder. Strawman harder. Not relevant to the discussion in the slightest.


Another problem with your response is that you think that the DM must only use monsters as listed in the books. There are rules for changing monsters and hell some creatures get class levels. If all you do as a DM is pull creatures out of a book when you know the party is optimized, then you are being lazy. Optimization doesn't always mean you want an easy time, perhaps I want to take on bigger challenges with higher risks? Your notion of optimization = always this is silly.Please recall that I was responding to Ilven's post regarding going last = useless if all you can do is spell cast, which is entirely untrue, therefore initiative optimization of monsters (or nerfs to casters) is going to address precisely nothing.


Also initiative means nothing to a enemy that is using gorilla tactics and surprising you (doesn't neccisarrily mean scry and die). But then again people cry foul when DMs use tactics and put a monsters 20 Int to use.They do. DM's also cry foul when a caster has every method of detection necessary to never be surprised, or if they are surprised, a contingency happens to prevent the effects of the surprise round altogether.
Must suck to be a Tier 1 caster. No birthday surprise parties unless you drop your defenses in anticipation of one.


I find it hilarious that people get so freaked out when you add something like this to magic but if you do it to mundanes no one cares.Assumption. If someone did nerf mundanes in such a way I would care, and I wager that more people would care than you give credit. In fact, your entire post in reply to mine was charged with nothing but assumptions. See my first paragraph where in fact I actually stated this as a concern.


I have nothing more to say though, this is getting off topic.Says the guy who took it off topic with ad homs, strawmen, and other assumptions. Good talk.

[Flickerdart]

Must suck to be a Tier 1 caster. No birthday surprise parties unless you drop your defenses in anticipation of one.
If you're doing wizardry right, nobody will know when your birthday is, only when they must deliver tribute upon you. :smallamused:

[Karoht]

If you're doing wizardry right, nobody will know when your birthday is, only when they must deliver tribute upon you. :smallamused:I totally forgot that.
EVERY DAY is your BERFDAY! Lay gifts and tribute to me (a surrogate of some form, but who is going to notice that?), today and every other day!

[Psyren]

It doesn't change a real strength of T1 - preparation. Like minionomancy or planar binding, or teleportaion, or divination, or...many other things, really. More so, it will only encourage players to use this tactics because in-combat solutions will be harder and longer.

A winner is you.


The sheer amount of things the DM would potentially have to ban in order to keep absurd initiatives out of the game is pretty long.

The thing though is that the list of those abuses and tricks that players are likely to try to use or even know about (assuming you don't exclusively game with the likes of Tippy) is a much smaller and more manageable subset of that list. In all the 3.P games I've played, nobody but me even knew what Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper were, or Arcane Thesis or Invisible Spell or Taint or any of it. When player X hits up the web and notices "wow, I can wish for an infinite-CL scroll of Holy Word!" after reading some forum, in my experience that is the exception and can be quickly banned without fuss. Moreover, once you get a feel for the kinds of things your DM will ban you end up not even wasting your time trawling for tricks in that particular stratum.

So yeah, while 3.5 is chock-full of ways to break the game wide open, that doesn't necessarily mean one's playgroup is.

[Elderand]

Also initiative means nothing to a enemy that is using gorilla tactics and surprising you (doesn't neccisarrily mean scry and die).

The original
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Elrendil/motivatorbdae9efa4e3183b56b593aeeb80b6dbcbd15966a_ zps88ca85f3.jpg

The psyren version
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Elrendil/motivator2b7c86b003c188c630ea4b0c51e3041ada114f40_ zps6e174098.jpg

edited to psyren suggestion

[Psyren]

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Elrendil/motivator3525fe8bc58bd174954bf93f98db2163fba3b9db_ zpsd48bf1d4.jpg

That would have been funnier with "tactics"

[Elderand]

That would have been funnier with "tactics"

Ask and ye shall receive

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Elrendil/motivatorbdae9efa4e3183b56b593aeeb80b6dbcbd15966a_ zps88ca85f3.jpg

[CombatOwl]

This may have been covered before, but as I've recently begun playing 2nd edition, I've noticed that the casting times of the spells seems to be TSR's way of balancing magic. Has anyone out there thought to do something similar to this idea for 3rd edition, and if so, how did it work out?

TSR's method of balancing spells was to make them deadly, dangerous weapons even for the user.

Casting speeds were a minor issue at best, because all the ranged weaponry had stupidly high weapon speeds anyway.

[Psyren]

I meant "Gorillas: they care not for your tactics." Since the phrase "guerrilla tactics" is a common one and thus the gorilla would be irritated at being associated with it due to misspelling.

And now that the joke has been thoroughly slain, failed its save for massive damage, reanimated, disintegrated, and the dust scattered to a gust of wind, I'll just go stand over there, in the corner.

[Elderand]

I meant "Gorillas: they care not for your tactics." Since the phrase "guerrilla tactics" is a common one and thus the gorilla would be irritated at being associated with it due to misspelling.

And now that the joke has been thoroughly slain, failed its save for massive damage, reanimated, disintegrated, and the dust scattered to a gust of wind, I'll just go stand over there, in the corner.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Elrendil/motivator854fb3bd9711123dd4915bf523c3f515b74b7540_ zps2c476a26.jpg

Alright I'll stop now.

>_>

[Maginomicon]

I implemented what I call "Charged Incantations" (charge-up spells) and "Charged Communals" (charge-up powers) which does pretty-much this.


Certain spells now require an incantation ritual as part of the casting process. Attempting to cast the spell without the incantation fails without wasting the action, spell slot, or other spell components. Unlike normal incantations, there’s never more than one skill involved, there are never secondary casters, you are not allowed to interrupt the incantation, the normal school-based DCs are reduced by 20, and you use the caster’s relevant ability modifier and CL for all relevant effects that involve them. Gaining access to a casting of a spell that has a charged incantation associated with it merely gives you the ability to charge the incantation. Having knowledge of the spell’s incantation procedure is meaningless if you don’t have the means to charge it.

PM me if you want to see the full text of how I made it work. The conversion procedure works for all spells and powers, so I attach it to any spell/power that I deem shouldn't be used in combat or by low-level characters. This method is also absurdly useful for controlling the power curve.

[Psyren]

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Elrendil/motivator854fb3bd9711123dd4915bf523c3f515b74b7540_ zps2c476a26.jpg

Alright I'll stop now.

>_>

...
*mutters while eating brains banana*

[Perseus]

The original
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Elrendil/motivatorbdae9efa4e3183b56b593aeeb80b6dbcbd15966a_ zps88ca85f3.jpg

The psyren version
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Elrendil/motivator2b7c86b003c188c630ea4b0c51e3041ada114f40_ zps6e174098.jpg

edited to psyren suggestion

Haha fantastic, at least this time my auto correct gave me a real word... Last time was spankong... What is up with my autocorrect today...

But this is fantastic, I'll need to use gorilla warfare in an upcoming session... Maybe I'll take the Batman route and have them riding Pterodactyls...

[Acanous]

Right. The initiative boosting actually depends on a lot of things. I'm gonna assume all sources are open for this one, but in case you play Pathfinder I'll list those seperately.

Improved Initiative: +4 "Feat" bonus. Untyped otherwise.
Hummingbird/Greensting Scorpion/Winter Hare Familiar (The latter two are Pathfinder): +4 untyped to Initiative.
Nerveskitter: +5 untyped. Use Anticipate Peril if you're in Pathfinder, +5 Insight.
Eager weapon: +2 untyped
Warning weapon: +5 Insight
Belt of Battle: +2 Competence.
Sandals of the Vagabond: +2 Luck.
Surge of Fortune: +2 Luck, doesn't stack with the sandals, does let you declare "Natural 20" on your die roll. Limited Wish for it.
Benediction. You need a trap or a cleric buddy to cast it, but +2 bonus that explicitly stacks with all other bonuses.
Draconic Polymorph: Ha-Naga. for base DEX of 38, Divine Agility for +10 Enhancement, +4 Sacred from Inner Beauty, +4 Morale from Aura of Vitality. Your DEX is now 56. (Thanks, Cruiser1!)
Muscle Reactions (Pathfinder): Add STR to Init. Untyped.
Your STR is 35 base (Draconic Polymorph into Ha-Naga) + 16 enhancement (Bite of the Werebear) + 4 morale (Aura of Vitality) for 55. That's 22 more to init, if Pathfinder is allowed.
Ioun Stone: Cracked Dusty Rose Prism: +1 Competence (Pathfinder)
Moment of Prescience gets you your caster level as insight, let's assume that's 15.
Use Magic Device on some Prayer Beads when you cast Moment of Prescience. Now you have CL 19.
Now if you're just in 3.5 we're at 83 Init. Don't know what your Contingency is, but assuming it's Arcane Fusion for a Sorc, or a Celerity if you're a Wizard, condition "If I am attacked" (Attacked has specific definitions in game, no pussyfooting around it. Only terrain based traps cause problems and even then, you're flying anyway) you get an action on the opponent's turn if somehow you were taken by surprise (Like at range). In this example, you're using that to limited wish for your Surge of Fortune.
So 83 init if 3.5 only. 105 if Pathfinder sources are allowed.

[Pex]

To keep things simple, don't change the spellcaster's initiative for the next round.

Example:

Spellcaster goes on initiative 17. He starts casting a 3rd level spell, casting time of 3. On initiative count 15 the spell goes off. Next round, the spellcaster's initiative is still 17, not 15.

If you don't do this, eventually all the spellcasters will be taking their turns consecutively after the warriors as their initiative count is lowered from each successive casting.

[TuggyNE]

This may have been covered before, but as I've recently begun playing 2nd edition, I've noticed that the casting times of the spells seems to be TSR's way of balancing magic. Has anyone out there thought to do something similar to this idea for 3rd edition, and if so, how did it work out?

That's not a complete view of casting times; they were one of perhaps a dozen or more subtle mechanics that worked together in sometimes complex interactions to make caster dominance uncommon and less visible. At sufficiently high levels and with sufficient effort, casters could still dominate rather substantially, but because of those various factors, it was not considered much of a problem.

Unfortunately, all or nearly all of those mechanics, taken in isolation, had a small positive effect on the game that in no way justified their complexity, unpleasantness, and confusion, and so most of them were dropped in the conversion to 3.x. To be honest, I can't disagree with this decision; removing the factors that masked caster superiority may have made for a nasty surprise, but it's better to avoid such fudging and just design the system properly in the first place.


Also I like how I state low to mid op, and everyone throws in the Tolkien high op examples of casters spankong the game.

Low-op casters do not need to be reined in in this fashion; high-op casters, which do need to be reined in, will not be affected significantly. This is the single most common issue with spellcaster fixes: they only nerf those who need no nerfing.


As with all blanket "fixes" this one horribly screws over the people that were already fine - that vast majority of caster players who aren't breaking the game. Those who are good enough to be a balance concern will have sufficient game mastery to counter with things like day+ long buffs and minions, and go on wrecking things.

Agreed.

[nyjastul69]

I've never found casting times to be a detriment to casting in either 1st or 2nd edition AD&D. Magic-user spells tend to have a casting time equal to their level. Long swords had a speed factor of 5 IIRC. Assuming equal initiative rolls, spells go off very quickly in 1 & 2e. Cleric spells were a bit different having a general casting time of 4+spell level. Cleric spells were somewhat easier to disrupt.

[Alefiend]

Do you play Rolemaster by any chance? (That's VERY similar to the spellcasting system that is used in Rolemaster)

Once upon a time, yes. I'd forgotten about that aspect of it. Unconscious plagiarism FTW! :smallredface:

[Thrudd]

Right. The initiative boosting actually depends on a lot of things. I'm gonna assume all sources are open for this one, but in case you play Pathfinder I'll list those seperately.

Improved Initiative: +4 "Feat" bonus. Untyped otherwise.
Hummingbird/Greensting Scorpion/Winter Hare Familiar (The latter two are Pathfinder): +4 untyped to Initiative.
Nerveskitter: +5 untyped. Use Anticipate Peril if you're in Pathfinder, +5 Insight.
Eager weapon: +2 untyped
Warning weapon: +5 Insight
Belt of Battle: +2 Competence.
Sandals of the Vagabond: +2 Luck.
Surge of Fortune: +2 Luck, doesn't stack with the sandals, does let you declare "Natural 20" on your die roll. Limited Wish for it.
Benediction. You need a trap or a cleric buddy to cast it, but +2 bonus that explicitly stacks with all other bonuses.
Draconic Polymorph: Ha-Naga. for base DEX of 38, Divine Agility for +10 Enhancement, +4 Sacred from Inner Beauty, +4 Morale from Aura of Vitality. Your DEX is now 56. (Thanks, Cruiser1!)
Muscle Reactions (Pathfinder): Add STR to Init. Untyped.
Your STR is 35 base (Draconic Polymorph into Ha-Naga) + 16 enhancement (Bite of the Werebear) + 4 morale (Aura of Vitality) for 55. That's 22 more to init, if Pathfinder is allowed.
Ioun Stone: Cracked Dusty Rose Prism: +1 Competence (Pathfinder)
Moment of Prescience gets you your caster level as insight, let's assume that's 15.
Use Magic Device on some Prayer Beads when you cast Moment of Prescience. Now you have CL 19.
Now if you're just in 3.5 we're at 83 Init. Don't know what your Contingency is, but assuming it's Arcane Fusion for a Sorc, or a Celerity if you're a Wizard, condition "If I am attacked" (Attacked has specific definitions in game, no pussyfooting around it. Only terrain based traps cause problems and even then, you're flying anyway) you get an action on the opponent's turn if somehow you were taken by surprise (Like at range). In this example, you're using that to limited wish for your Surge of Fortune.
So 83 init if 3.5 only. 105 if Pathfinder sources are allowed.

That's amazing. How the heck did you get all that stuff, and use it all at the same time? Not in my game. :smallwink:

[skyth]

Once upon a time, yes. I'd forgotten about that aspect of it. Unconscious plagiarism FTW! :smallredface:

Well, it seemed to be based on, not copied exactly (Rolemaster spells have even longer casting times than you gave)...So it wasn't exactly plagiarism :)