Kubota callback?

[Scrynor]

Anyone else feeling the ghost of Kubota in this awesome resolution? I don't think Elan ever could have let T fall like that if he hadn't had the past experience and debate with V about the merits of disintegrating/capturing Kubota. This feels like the culmination of a really long character development road.

"You're not the real villain" makes me think Elan has realized that capturing the lead of every arc isn't needed. Sometimes you have to let em go or fall or disintegrate. One small piece of an awesome puzzle...

[Jay R]

No, I don't think so. Elan would still not kill a captive, as Vaarsuvius did.

The crucial distinctions are:
1. the fight with Tarquin was still being fought, and
2. "Don't worry. You'll live. This is a direct callback to Tarquin stabbing Roy through Elan, and saying, "You'll live. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html)"

While the entire strip is related to some degree, I don't see any connection here beyond the fact that Elan happens to be the only character who's in both scenes.

The closest thing to a call-back is that this is how Rich is getting rid of a minor villain when he's no longer needed for the story.

(And imagine Tarquin's reaction if he knew he was being described as "no longer needed for the story".)

[Grey Watcher]

I think it also differs in that, unlike Kubota, there's no higher authority to hand Tarquin over to. Because Tarquin's in charge of the Empire of Blood and is at least an equal with his counterparts in Sweat and Tears, capturing him and turning him over to the authorities is simply not an option.

[ThePhantasm]

I can see the similarity on the level of "can we please get back to saving the world?" a recognition that side-quest villains shouldn't become a distraction from the main plotline. Yet V's approach was quite callous and evil, showing a disregard for human life... she cast disintegrate without even knowing who Kubota was, and then threatened to do the same to Elan when he questioned it. By contrast, Elan's approach is good...

So yeah, I can see what you are saying about how it might fit into the picture of Elan's overall arc, even though the analogy two situations has to be qualified in a lot of ways.

[Scrynor]

I'm not saying it's exactly the same thing or a direct analogy. It never is in any good story. I'm just saying that it is showing Elan caring more about big picture good than dramatic convention or instantaneous good, which is something he was never willing to do in the past. While he greatly disagreed with what V did, I do think it's part of what got him to this point.

The whole arc is about alignments in a way. It's actually ending with Elan gaining world perspective and stepping towards a grayer shade of good than ever before.

[ThePhantasm]

I don't think its a grayer shade of good, just a less naive one. You can't necessarily solve the world's problems as you encounter them... overthrowing an evil empire has to be postponed so that you can save the whole world from the Snarl. It sucks, but it all comes with recognizing your limitations.

This arc has been about Elan recognizing a lot of those limitations, including recognizing that his family is screwed up and that he can't fix that. He can't fix the situation in the Empire of Blood right now either. That doesn't make him any less committed to his principles, its just a recognition that sometimes there's only so much you can do.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that what Elan did with Tarquin is different than what happened with V and Kubota. For one, Elan knew that the fall wouldn't be able to kill Tarquin, whereas Vaarsuvius attacked with the intent of killing. For another, Tarquin was still quite a threat, whereas Kubota would have been only a minor annoyance (one of the reasons Vaarsuvius wanted to kill him). Finally, I don't think this is the right comparison to show growth in Elan. Elan captured Kubota because he recognized that following the local laws was more important than revenge. Here, he knows that Tarquin must be dealt with and so he gets rid of him.

[Scrynor]

@Phant - I think we're saying the same thing in different words. Can we combine gray / less naive and call it more of a pragmatic good that he's never displayed before?

@Jax - I think you're choosing to take a happy view. I'm not saying V's act wasn't evil and Elan's wasn't acceptable. But they have the same core motive. "Here is an evil dude that I could bring to justice, but the world is at risk and I don't have time for this."

That's what I think is the real point here. It's a recurring theme of OOTS. The main characters of OOTS largely act outside the black-and-white alignment system. Red Cloak is evil but you can find merit in his efforts if you want. Roy is good but bends things when needed to accomplish his good goals. They are characters that are defined by motives more complex than "I am good" or "I am evil". Elan has been the most black and white alignment OOTS member (maybe Durkon?). Over this arc he's become the kind of complex character that The Giant seems to prefer and it culminated in him making a complex decision instead of just "a good guy would capture an evil dictator".

Aaaand that choice reminds me of Kubota... hurray for a weak tie-in back to my original point.

[martianmister]

But they have the same core motive. "Here is an evil dude that I could bring to justice, but the world is at risk and I don't have time for this."

Elan have time, he just didn't want it. Also, these events are completely unrelated.

[Snails]

The other nuance is that Elan may have saved Tarquin's life by not bringing him on board. Tarquin would only be allowed to live by other members of the Order if they deferred to Elan.

I think the important point here is Elan is standing up and taking responsibility. He is not going to be the hapless witness of justice turned on its head by a plotting evil noble, nor a bystander as V takes care of business. He is not going to be played like Nale played him either.

So, yes, it is a callback, but not specifically to Kubota. It is a callback to when Elan has been manipulated. Mostly it is a callback to Nale and Tarquin, but, yes a bit of Kubota.

[Scrynor]

Really? You read it that Elan letting him fall meant he was exerting his own will over the rest of the Order, taking the lead as decision maker, and making sure his father survived?

That's pretty different from what I got. I thought the beauty of it was that Elan knew T would live and the Empire of Blood would be just as much of a mess when he eventually returned but he made the very pragmatic choice that with Xykon on the way to the final gate he didn't have time to deal with this situation right now.

That's interesting though. There are so many ways to interpret a scene.

[Scrynor]

Also, I was never saying Kubota is the pivotal moment for Elan or anything. I was just pointing out a long ago event that feels like it was building towards this same arc of character development. Apparently others disagree. Regardless, I still feel like the Giant had a huge plan which makes me happy. I love feeling like authors were 35 steps ahead of me.