The Wealth by Level chart - a mystery?

[Zejety]

As a new DM (PF) I am trying to wrap my head around the WBL chart and its implications on the game.

First, I realize it is meant as a guideline first and foremost but I'd still like to take a look at it from a RAW PoV.

Apart from the discussion of consumable and items to-be-sold-for-half-value (a beast on its own), what the the chart seems to imply is that it is the DMs job to make sure the players earn a certain amount of treasure by the time they level up (roughly). Can savvy (for a lack of a more appropriate while non-offensive word) players abuse this by never going out of their way to earn treasure because they will eventually get their share by means of WBL conformity anyway?
How do the Appraise, Craft and Perform skills factor into this? If players earn money with their skills, is the DM expected to "punish" them for it by handing out less treasure later?

This concept has been bothering me for a while and I would really appreciate to hear the playground's opinion on it or just read some interesting stories from your experiences. :)


I have also read that older D&D editions handed out XP for treasure instead of the other way around. What are your thoughts about that? Sounds more consequential to me, actually.

[bekeleven]

3.5, I assume PF's core reasoning hasn't changed:

The game assumes a certain number of level-appropriate encounters per level (13.33) and provides treasure charts for encounters of each level. If you procedurally generate treasure for each of these 13 encounters using the tools in the DMG and subtract roughly 10% for consumables, you get WBL.

By this reasoning, the only way for players to not get their WBL is to avoid the encounters giving them new levels in the first place.

Where does crafting sit in this? Well, Craft checks, artificers, and item creation are mostly tools WotC put into the game so that it could pretend to be a world sim (which it's not) instead of a combat sim.

If someone is having trouble making their WBL, a CL20 Wall of Salt makes 562,275 GP of Salt. Have fun.

[Red Fel]

I've always seen WBL as a guideline, like CR - an attempt, albeit one easily subverted, to introduce balancing levels into the game.

WBL says, in essence, where the players should be at any given level, in terms of their gear and such, much like CR says where the players should be in terms of power in order to engage an enemy.

And we all know how broken CR is.

And that's the point. A DM who does not give out loot will see players with wealth far below WBL. A DM who allows various crafting shenanigans or Wall of Salt/Iron may see players with wealth exceeding WBL. WBL is an attempt to predict where your players should be at a given level, not where they must be. And, depending on your campaign, there may be no need (or it may even be undesirable) for your players to have their WBL.

[Eldariel]

WBL is mostly useful for generating premade characters of higher levels and a feeble attempt at standardizing power level for a given level so that CR could function (protip: it doesn't).

Even within the DMG encounter confines, there are monsters with double or triple treasure and ones with quarter or none - to reach WBL you'd need these to even out but if you assign encounters randomly, there's a very high chance of that not happening (let alone if you do it intentionally).


In-game, I wouldn't really worry about it. Create your campaign, have them gain treasure and wealth as the campaign dictates and proceed from there. It might be useful to view the chart and see where they are versus where they're expected to be (and adjust your expectations accordingly), but I wouldn't worry one way or another about them getting ahead or falling behind of the WBL numbers on any given level.

It's just the nature of organic campaigns that wealth varies. As such, if you want to play an actual organic campaign where players and their actions matter, don't go out of your way to deny or give them wealth. Just keep in mind that the warrior-types probably need a way to fly and such; as such, an organic game world where high level warriors are a possibility probably has them available.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I've always seen WBL as a guideline, like CR - an attempt, albeit one easily subverted, to introduce balancing levels into the game.

WBL says, in essence, where the players should be at any given level, in terms of their gear and such, much like CR says where the players should be in terms of power in order to engage an enemy.

And we all know how broken CR is.

And that's the point. A DM who does not give out loot will see players with wealth far below WBL. A DM who allows various crafting shenanigans or Wall of Salt/Iron may see players with wealth exceeding WBL. WBL is an attempt to predict where your players should be at a given level, not where they must be. And, depending on your campaign, there may be no need (or it may even be undesirable) for your players to have their WBL.

I agree with your reasoning except for this part, the game assumes that you'd have certain commodities by certain level, that is where WBL comes in. For example a level 10 fighter would be completely useless if he doesn't have an appropriate magic weapon to deal with DR or even have a chance to hit enemies (incorporeal creatures), never mind defenses, AC scales horribly without items, never mind saving throws. Obviously this doesn't affect casters as much since the can cover their bases with spells, but if you want to have a least a semblance of balance, WBL should be enforced as much as it can be.

[GreenETC]

Is the point. A DM who does not give out loot will see players with wealth far below WBL. A DM who allows various crafting shenanigans or Wall of Salt/Iron may see players with wealth exceeding WBL. WBL is an attempt to predict where your players should be at a given level, not where they must be. And, depending on your campaign, there may be no need (or it may even be undesirable) for your players to have their WBL.
This right here is a perfect description of it. You can put your players anywhere you want while playing, and players can even actively avoid getting treasure if they want, like giving away to charity, in which case you give them other rewards.

The reason WBL exists is because, as the game progresses, certain enemies gain abilities and things that outstrip the players, and as such, the players need to spend money on items to compensate for the difference, because your gear is just as much a part of your progression as your character's stats and class levels. Things like DR, high save DCs, incorporeality, and etc require different equipment to counteract, or else the enemies will start beating you into a pulp as the level of your enemies gets higher.

The trick to WBL is that you need to acknowledge it. If someone doesn't have the right gear, you can't go around expecting your players to begin fighting something equal to their level played intelligently, so you need to compensate by making them fight less difficult threats.

[Slipperychicken]

WBL is just the average expected value of treasure earned by a given level, based on randomly-generated treasure from appropriate encounters.

It's more like a measuring stick than anything else, so you can tell whether your party is comparatively poor or wealthy.

[Seerow]

3.5, I assume PF's core reasoning hasn't changed:

The game assumes a certain number of level-appropriate encounters per level (13.33) and provides treasure charts for encounters of each level. If you procedurally generate treasure for each of these 13 encounters using the tools in the DMG and subtract roughly 10% for consumables, you get WBL.

By this reasoning, the only way for players to not get their WBL is to avoid the encounters giving them new levels in the first place.


Note: This doesn't actually work in actual play. I've played with DMs who run their treasure completely random by RAW, and we reliably came out between 33-50% below where expected by WBL.

The reason is because not every encounter gives the same amount of treasure. There is the 'standard' treasure reward, and if every encounter has that, then you should come out where intended. But if you run into any undead, plants, animals, etc... things that are listed as Treasure[None], then players are going to fall behind quickly unless you have enemies with high treasure instead to compensate. Assuming you're not setting up your encounters with treasure in mind, that's not likely to happen.

Similarly, even if you do get the standard reward every time, those are typically things like "gain 1 minor magic item", which has a huge range in value. With average rolls, again, you end up right around WBL. But roll poorly for a level or two, and you have a party swimming in potions and scrolls they don't care about, but not a single permanent magic item between them, and well below expected wealth levels, because according to those treasure charts a random lucky +2 flaming weapon off the minor chart is worth the exact same amount (1 minor item slot) as the potion of magic stone. Over a long enough period you can expect this to average out, but a level or two of bad rolls leaves the PCs really hurting.

[Slipperychicken]

Over a long enough period you can expect this to average out, but a level or two of bad rolls leaves the PCs really hurting.

That's just how expected values work: If you were to repeat the trial a large number of times, you would get that result most frequently. Often times you get more or less, especially if you deviate from the expected procedure.

[Ravens_cry]

PC Wealth by level, to me, was what you got to start with if you started a character at higher level.
It's not what a player MUST have at a certain level if played organically.

[skyth]

Also, if a PC is significantly above or below WBL guidelines, I consider them a different effective level for computing XP as encounters would be more or less challenging depending on how well geared they are.

[Chronos]

The way to use it as a DM is to generate treasure organically, and if the party starts getting too far above or below WBL, adjust future encounters to give somewhat less or more loot to compensate. Also make sure that they have the opportunity to somehow trade in useless items for ones they can actually use.

[Tvtyrant]

You mean other people don't just periodically pay their players with dragons whose scales are made of actual gemstones? Weird.

[Seerow]

You mean other people don't just periodically pay their players with dragons whose scales are made of actual gemstones? Weird.

Well yeah that happened once... but then that Dragon got taken over by an ancient Oracle as part of a sidequest we had kind of forgotten about, and we had to let it go rather than looting its corpse. Quite a tragedy, really.

[Ravens_cry]

You mean other people don't just periodically pay their players with dragons whose scales are made of actual gemstones? Weird.
Whenever that happens, everyone runs away except for the Bard who gets the lucky critical.

[Shining Wrath]

Just as a DM'ing comment, I favor the idea of rolling up the treasure for a "story arc" in advance, and then slotting it out as appropriate to the encounters.

Example: PCs are investigating raids by lizard-looking people along the trade road. The lizard looking people are kobolds. The BBEG at the back of the lair, though, is a white dragon still young enough to enjoy the attention of kobolds.

The kobold encounters have only a fraction of the expected treasure, because they have given much of it as tribute to the dragon. The dragon is, of course, reclining on a whole lot of loot.

The total wealth of the story arc is about what you'd expect for a party of PC's gaining level 5 from level 4. But if they are too afraid to fight the dragon, they don't get 80% of that wealth.

[Emperor Tippy]

I make it a hard rule and let the players (and NPC's) do whatever they want to reach it. Want Wish abuse? Fine with me, but go too far about WBL and you blow up and are irrevocably dead (well short of a greater deity with the Life or Death domains wanting you back up.).

I should note that I only count WBL in terms of permanent magic items with consumables being accounted for on a separate scale.

[Captnq]

WBL is the amount of magic a given individual can "use".

Sure you find a 200,000 gp sword, but do you have the force of will to activate it's true magical potential? Try again in a few levels.

Simple.

[Slipperychicken]

WBL is the amount of magic a given individual can "use".

Sure you find a 200,000 gp sword, but do you have the force of will to activate it's true magical potential? Try again in a few levels.

Simple.

And if I sell the weapon for 100k?

[Zancloufer]

WBL doesn't work too well IMO. It's somewhat of a scale, but the problem is that some monsters have rather insane loot. Between the piles of monsters that DON'T drop loot you'd have to add quite a few double standard, or similar monsters.

Also Titans are HORRIBLE to roll in person for. Don't do that FFS. CR 20 double standard could be a simple as 3-4 scrolls and some gems, but that major magic item table for weapons/armour can create horribly huge amounts of loot.

Seriously who thought it would be a good idea to make ~40% of the table: Powerful (+4-+12 effective) weapon and roll again?

To quote a recap post I make for my game:


and found a dozen swords of great power on a Titan. Oh and like 50 Gem Studded embroider mantles and enough harps to start a band. On the same Titian. Plus like 4 sets of armour, ~100 gems, over 50k gold, and the second most expensive Wondrous Item in the DMG.

ON THE SAME TITAN.

So yeah, not rolling that again . . .

[Slipperychicken]

So yeah, not rolling that again . . .

The treasure isn't always on its body, it's often in a nearby room. Maybe the titan was keeping all his swag in his lair, or a cart or something.

I do agree that you need to pre-roll treasure if you want to avoid silly results.

[Zancloufer]

The treasure isn't always on its body, it's often in a nearby room. Maybe the titan was keeping all his swag in his lair, or a cart or something.

I do agree that you need to pre-roll treasure if you want to avoid silly results.

Maybe not even pre-roll. Just figure out what kind of swag falls within the possible results of said roll. If the PCs' are really poor make it on the higher end, and if they are rich jib them a bit. Also let's you make funny custom magic items that the players would appreciate. Two Holy Avengers is rather silly to put in a pile of loot unless the party has two Paladins. . .

[Slipperychicken]

Two Holy Avengers is rather silly to put in a pile of loot unless the party has two Paladins. . .

Who knows? Maybe two paladins tried to kill him a while back and they had some fancy-lookin' weapons that he kept. Bonus points if they have two different names inscribed onto them (perhaps with the same last name to indicate they were somehow related. Husband and wife? Brother and sister? Father and daughter? Who knows?).

It might be silly sometimes, but sometimes little things like that can add some depth to the setting, even if it ends up being vendor trash anyway.

[Chronos]

The other reason to roll treasure before the encounter is that intelligent opponents will be using that treasure against the PCs. If he's got a magic sword, he should be attacking with it. And if he isn't a sword-using type, why didn't he sell it?

[Slipperychicken]

And if he isn't a sword-using type, why didn't he sell it?

One word: Trophies.

http://www.swordsaxe.com/images/products/detail/Glowing_Sting_Orc_Sword_with_Plaque_LOTR.jpg

http://sciencefiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/game-of-thrones-2011-wallpaper-iron-throne.jpg

Because when you kill heroes, you'll want to keep some souvenirs around. A wall covered in the weapons of your former enemies will make you look like a badass and remind you of the glory days. Aside from being excellent furniture material, they also make for good going-away presents for any adventurers to whom you're a father figure.

[Nettlekid]

By this reasoning, the only way for players to not get their WBL is to avoid the encounters giving them new levels in the first place.


This is something I've wondered about. The DMG defines "encounter" pretty loosely, and what's more, it defines successfully completing the encounter loosely too. If there's a CR 11 Troll Hunter hanging out in a hallway, and the PCs have to get through the hallway, the encounter is completed if the PCs kill it, reason with it, sneak by it, or in any way get through the hallway. How then should loot be given? If they killed it, they would loot its corpse and get magic items it was using. If they sneak by, is there suddenly a small treasure room with CR 11 loot that wasn't there before? What if the Rogue takes that treasure and then doubles back and steals from the Troll? How do you regulate it, if you were trying to stay exactly to what the DMG says?

[Qc Storm]

Do people really follow the "no treasure, 50% coins, no magic items, double standard" things?

If they're raiding an undead dungeon, I use the average wealth from the encounter to swag up the room a bit. Gold candlesticks and stuff. Maybe one of the zombies still has a +2 sword stuck in his head.

[Flickerdart]

This is something I've wondered about. The DMG defines "encounter" pretty loosely, and what's more, it defines successfully completing the encounter loosely too. If there's a CR 11 Troll Hunter hanging out in a hallway, and the PCs have to get through the hallway, the encounter is completed if the PCs kill it, reason with it, sneak by it, or in any way get through the hallway. How then should loot be given? If they killed it, they would loot its corpse and get magic items it was using. If they sneak by, is there suddenly a small treasure room with CR 11 loot that wasn't there before? What if the Rogue takes that treasure and then doubles back and steals from the Troll? How do you regulate it, if you were trying to stay exactly to what the DMG says?
WBL isn't something you have to adhere to all the time or else. If the troll was sitting on a chest full of gen-studded platinum lingerie and the PCs skipped it, they have less treasure than they would normally...but until they get back to the city and hawk their filthy lucre, and then level up, and then buy magic items, and then go fight something it doesn't actually make a difference. As long as players between level n and n+1 have wealth somewhere between WBL for levels n and n+1, you're fine. Add more loot to the end boss's trove, or simply give them more rewards for the quest they are currently on, once they complete it.

[Slipperychicken]

How then should loot be given?

That's the wrong question. Figure out where the treasure would be before the encounter happens, and then the PCs can either get the treasure or pass it up, depending on which approach they take.

[Tvtyrant]

Whenever that happens, everyone runs away except for the Bard who gets the lucky critical.

Strangely accurate. I do tend to just have "diamond scaled dragons" show up whenever we fall too short of WBL, and oozes and rust monsters when we go over.