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Neon Knight
2007-01-20, 08:37 PM
I remember someone once making a comment that Sorcerers where worthless, and as I have recently been considering rolling one, would like to get the opinion of others.

I don't want to pwn, I just want to be effective enough so I can contribute to fights as well as role play. Is the sorcerer bad enough to prevent me from contributing?

Jamin
2007-01-20, 08:48 PM
In one word "no"
The Sorcerer is a full caster which means it takes a really bad player to make them bad. So they are not as good as wizards. Who wants to be as good as as those nerds. Sorcerers are IMO more fun, less work, more balanced, and just way cooler then wizards.

Zincorium
2007-01-20, 08:49 PM
Sorcerors are far from worthless. They're just considered slightly less powerful than other full casters (core ones, at any rate), due to versatility, and clerics, wizards, and druids are the most powerful classes in the game.

The trick with sorcerors is to get as many useful spells onto your list as you can. Save-or-be-screwed are the best ones, as opposed to damage spells, because they remove an enemy outright.

Jamin
2007-01-20, 09:09 PM
On a(n) (un)related who is the fool who called my 2nd favorite class worthless.

Sactheminions
2007-01-20, 09:13 PM
Get into a PrC ASAP. Avoid actual Sorceror levels to the maximum extent possible. Sorcerors are good as long as you don't play a monoclass Sorceror.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-20, 09:18 PM
Sorcerers are less powerful than wizards. They are still highly effective. If you want to play one, go for it, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Neon Knight
2007-01-20, 09:23 PM
On a(n) (un)related who is the fool who called my 2nd favorite class worthless.

One of my friends. He doesn't post here.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-20, 09:35 PM
Yes, wizards have more power than sorcerers. But just read the OOTS comic #306 "Power Word Annoy" and you'll begin to understand why sorcerers are so much less trouble to play than wizards.

Fat Daddy
2007-01-20, 09:51 PM
Sorcerers are less powerful than wizards. They are still highly effective. If you want to play one, go for it, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
I agree. As long as you are careful and think through your spell selection, sorcerers are not only effective but IMO more fun than wizards.

Obtree
2007-01-20, 10:05 PM
9 times out of 9 times I would choose the sorcerer over the wizard. Why? because they're better suited to my roleplaying/adventuring style and they are so much cooler its obscene.

My only beef (which is really more of a beef with game designers than with sorcerers) is that they don't gain access to spells as quickly as wizards! This is really unfair :smallfurious: ! To me at least, the wizard’s ability to learn a limitless number of spells is equal to the sorcerer’s ability to cast spontaneously. Everything else is the same, except wizards gain access to spells quicker. I think the sorcerer might have better weapon proficiencies? The two classes should really be just two equal forms of the same thing (a pure arcane spell caster), with different ways of getting there.

Anyway, I dont have my 3.0 PHB with me and I haven't bought a 3.5 book, so I can't check my facts. I could probably give a more detailed comparison if i did. Oh well...

Scalenex
2007-01-20, 10:14 PM
Sorcerors are far from worthless. They're just considered slightly less powerful than other full casters (core ones, at any rate), due to versatility, and clerics, wizards, and druids are the most powerful classes in the game.

The trick with sorcerors is to get as many useful spells onto your list as you can. Save-or-be-screwed are the best ones, as opposed to damage spells, because they remove an enemy outright.

Maybe I'm going a different route with my next character. I'm playing a sorcerer-barbarian (lately my group has been trying to get out of our comfort zones and I had once said I'd never play either of those classes so I'm trying something new). He's a half-orc who was raised by orcs and ousted from his tribe because they were superstitious. I even posted the backstory on the forum a long time ago. My plan is to focus on buff spells. My plan is to cast buff spells on myself, then rage and charge into battle. My DM agreed to a house rule for me to pick up a feat to cast spells in a rage eventually. We are making characters with a point distribution and since I can't afford as much Charisma as I would like and still be balanced for going into combat with light (or no) armor, I am concentrating on spells with no saves at all (since my ability modifier is low). Rays and touch attack spells are good for a multi-class warrior I figured because they use an attack roll as opposed to a saving throw. I know a lower Charisma will rob me of bonus spells later but if I split my levels evenly between Barbarian and Sorcerer, I'll only get new spell levels every four levels or so.

(We also house ruled that half-orcs don't get a -2 to Cha so I could go much higher if I was willing to sacrifice other abilities)
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 15

Anyway I'm more interested in trying something new than being powerful. As long as I can contribute. (Though I wish Sorcerers had more hit points or skill points to give them a leg up on wizards, I mean they don't have to spend that much time studying so they'd get more excerise!)

Thomas
2007-01-20, 10:18 PM
Sorcerers are less powerful than wizards. They are still highly effective. If you want to play one, go for it, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Yeah. "Less powerful than wizards" encompasses... every other class in the game. Sorcerers are still more powerful than fighters, rogues, paladins, rangers, bards, and so on...

Jack_Simth
2007-01-20, 10:19 PM
Sorcerers take more up-front thought than Wizards, as it's harder to fix mistakes (spell selection especially).

Wizards can fix many mistakes during the game fairly readily (spell selection especially).

With the pure sorcerer and wizard, the Wizard has more long-term power due to bonus feats and the ability to change spell selection from one day to the next. The Sorcerer has more short-term power due to the greater number of spells per day, the lack of a need to know in advance how many of a given spell will be needed, and the ability to apply metamagic feats on the fly.

Like with most classes, what suppliments are available greatly influences the power and flexibility of a class.

Example:
Take a Desert Kobold (racial variant, Unearthed arcana; basically trades the Con penalty for a Wis penalty) Sorcerer. Tack on two flaws, and he's got three feats available at 1st. So he takes a metamagic feat, Arcane Preparation (Complete Arcane), and the Draconic Bloodline feat (Dragon Magazine; other bloodline feats are perfectly RAW, but the Draconic Bloodline is less likely to make the DM go "huh?" later down the line when you go on the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to help release your inner dragon). At 3rd, this kobold take Cooperative Metamagic (complete Arcane), somwhere along the line he completes the Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon), and for his 6th level he goes into the Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane), takes Draconic Reserve (Races of the Dragon web enhancement) and completes the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon Web Enhancement; makes him cast as a Sorcerer one level higher). He sticks with Mage of the Arcane Order to the end, using the bonus feats from the class as he chooses, but taking Spell Focus (something), Spell Focus (Something else) and Skill Focus(Spellcraft) at 9th, 12th, and 15th. He then joins the Archmage's for 16th+ (Dungeon Master's Guide). Of course, he picks up Limited Wish (Player's Handbook) somewhere along the way, so he can duplicate Psychic Reformation (Expanded Psionic Handbook) to change out spells or feats as needed.

At 19th, you've got a dirty little desert rat that casts as a Sorcerer-20 with nine extra spells known, has the ability to have nearly any PHB Sor/Wiz spell available on a round's notice, has three arbitrary metamagic feats (one of which can be a useable Quicken, thanks to Arcane Preparation), one arbitary feat (18th level), and four Archmage specials, who can change his last six levels worth of feat and spell choices for 300 xp, a 7th level spell slot, and a standard action.

This can, of course, be optimized even more by replacing a few Mage of the Arcane Order levels with some other PrC that's fairly easy to qualify for (as in, requires feats/spells/skills he'll already have or can easily afford, such as the Mindbender PrC).

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-20, 10:54 PM
I wouldn't even bother with Psychic Reformation. If I'm high enough to be casting Limited Wishes with a Sorceror(or high enough to be playing one to begin with. :P ), I can certainly afford the 500xp to replicate any spell of 6th or lower level. ;)

Jack_Simth
2007-01-20, 11:23 PM
I wouldn't even bother with Psychic Reformation. If I'm high enough to be casting Limited Wishes with a Sorceror(or high enough to be playing one to begin with. :P ), I can certainly afford the 500xp to replicate any spell of 6th or lower level. ;)
The point is not that he can replicate a 6th level spell.

The point is that at 19th, when he discovers that he needs to swap out Shades and Wish for Time Stop and Foresight.... HE CAN. With one standard action (and 300 xp, and a 7th level spell slot) he can change his last six levels worth of spell, skill, and feat choices (an extra 50 xp for each level beyond 6 - in most cases, though, the last six levels will include a Sorcerer's top three spell levels in their entirety, which is usually more than enough). Or that when he finds out that he needs a few ranks in an obscure Knoweledge skill... it's his, six seconds (and a 7th level spell slot, and 300 xp) later.

A great many people say (with a good basis for it!) that the Wizard's ability to have a completely different set of options from one day to the next, or to have any spell in the game available on fifteen minutes' notice, is what makes them the most powerful class in the game.

Limited Wish/Psychic Reformation cheese lets the Sorcerer do that in one standard action. Interestingly, the Wizard can't do the same (at least, not by the same route; I believe there's a spell somewhere that does let a Wizard change his prepared spell choices on the fly) as even if the DM rules he can change the spells in his spellbook that way, he'd still have to stop and prepare them (although if the Wizard makes sure his last two feats are always Signiture Spell and Spell Mastery, it can work, to a limited extent, for the Wizard as well).

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-20, 11:26 PM
Hey, I've got two PC's that picked sorcerer instead of wizard because I'm notorious for throwing enemies at them without any apparent rhyme or reason, as I am a madman. Being a wizard would screw you over just because you wouldn't get your precious 8 hours of sleep to recoup, it's kill or be killed, suckah!

Weirdlet
2007-01-20, 11:32 PM
I rather like sorcerers, for several reasons. One, I kind of like the idea of there being both inborn magic coming from a genetic tendency or remnant from some unusual ancestry, brought to bear by sheer force of personality and will, and magic that comes from a mundane person studying the ways of the universe so intently that with the right keywords and focuses they can 'tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up'. I think there's room for both methods of accessing arcane power.

Second reason- There's less headache with spells. You have fewer, yes, but they are *yours*, to cast at any time, beholden to no one but yourself without studying. There's less wavering around and trying to pick what am I gonna use *this* one for today, and *how many times* should I prepare it- and no one can guilt you for not being psychic about what would be needed this particular day. You're a sorcerer, you've got your thing you do, you do it, you're done, if they don't like it they can go kiss a toad because it's not like you can change who and what you are for their convenience.

Third- I happen to think the 'odd ancestry' bit leaves potential for some neat background and roleplaying, as well as the more spontaneous and unexpected manifestation of powers than deliberately studying to gain them.

Fourth- Someone mentioned getting into PrCs swiftly, and I agree that it is a good idea to meld the sorcerer with other things, although things that keep spell progression with minimal interruption are good. The sorcerer blends well with other things, with less of a conflict, in my mind, than others that seem more profession or calling that seem hard to mix with others- being a sorcerer is a personal, inborn thing that can more believably gain a learned trade or profession on top of it (my preference- rogue. Sorcerers mix with rogues so well it is astonishing).

Jack_Simth
2007-01-20, 11:32 PM
Viscount Einstrauss:
Do note that a Sorcerer needs 8 hours of rest, too.

And a 5th+ level Wizard shouldn't be where he can be attacked at night. A simple Extended Rope Trick puts him out of harm's way for most things long enough to get 8 hours rest, 1 hour's preparation, and a little time for the niceties of breakfast (at 5th, an Extended Rope Trick lasts 10 hours).

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-20, 11:38 PM
I mean more in the array of different monsters and obstacles I can come up with before the PC's get a proper chance to rest. The wizard needs a minimum 8 hours to prepare for a very specific threat that he doesn't typically have the spells to deal with readied. For instance, a wizard unprepared for an iron golem encounter can be pretty screwed, while the spontaneous casting of a sorcerer could save him from a gooey death, provided he set up his spell list right as his levels progressed.

Jack_Simth
2007-01-20, 11:48 PM
I mean more in the array of different monsters and obstacles I can come up with before the PC's get a proper chance to rest. The wizard needs a minimum 8 hours to prepare for a very specific threat that he doesn't typically have the spells to deal with readied. For instance, a wizard unprepared for an iron golem encounter can be pretty screwed, while the spontaneous casting of a sorcerer could save him from a gooey death, provided he set up his spell list right as his levels progressed.

Meanwhile, the Wizard who had Wall of Force, Resilient Sphere, Haste, and Invisibility prepared as a matter of course isn't particularly bothered by the golem (and at CR 13 for the Iron Golem, a Wizard with a 5th, 4th, 3rd, and 2nd level spell slots dedicated to particular spells is perfectly reasonable).

Sure, the Wizard who always wants the limelight for himself and prepared all his slots, and put in a lot of "Save or" spells and direct damage spells is in for it.

Likewise, a Wizard can (but many don't) skip preparing some spells in the morning to prepare them later with just fifteen minute's notice. Intelligently played, a Wizard can do almost anything tomorrow, a great many things in fifteen minutes, and a fair amount right now.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-20, 11:59 PM
That is a good point.

Well, I did suggest wizards to them at first. It was another player who seems to hate preparing spells that convinced the other dedicated caster to choose sorcerer, especially with my bizarre tendencies to throw out odd challenges a lot.

But sorcerer still seems to be a decent class.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-21, 12:25 AM
Sorcerors for me, appear to be more useful for Gishes, who would generally have just a handful of spells(usually self-buffs) that they would cast repeatedly. In those cases, a wizard is a lot less useful(apart from the quicker access to spells). Flipping around the books, this trend seems pretty well borne out. From the Beguiler to the Duskblade, Hexblade, even the Favoured Soul all use the "Small known list with as many uses as slots" model, and all make fair-decent gishes.

The Sorceror isn't entirely useless compared to the Wizard. He just needs to find a different niche(ie. Not as the primary caster).

Jack_Simth
2007-01-21, 12:30 AM
That is a good point.

Well, I did suggest wizards to them at first. It was another player who seems to hate preparing spells that convinced the other dedicated caster to choose sorcerer, especially with my bizarre tendencies to throw out odd challenges a lot.

Two arcanists in the same party? That's actually the ideal situation for one Sorcerer and one Wizard. You want one to be able to take over in situations where the other has problems, not have both of them with the same set of weaknesses.


But sorcerer still seems to be a decent class.
Yes. Even without cheese, an intelligently played Sorcerer is a very viable character.

Some Lactose Intolerant Core Sorcerer Pros (in relation to the Lactose Intolerant Core Wizard):
Endurance (Sorcerer has greater spells per day)
Encounter Flexibility Curve (A Sorcerer loses no options until he's out of his highest level spell slots; each spell a Wizard has cast is an option he no longer has available)
Low money requirements (A Sorcerer requires very little equipment; a Wizard needs scrolls, wands, and scribing materials)
Fast-paced (A Sorcerer needs just enough down-time to rest and replenish spells; A Wizard needs to scribe spells into a spellbook and craft scrolls and wands for those occasionally needed but not wanted prepared).

Some Lactose Intolerant Core Sorcerer Cons (in relation to the Lactose Intolerant Core Wizard):
Campaign Flexibility (A Sorcerer is basically stuck with spell choices; a Wizard can re-tool them each day)
Rate of Fire (a Sorcerer has some difficulties getting an effective Quicken)
Feats (A Sorcerer doesn't get any extra, a Wizard does)
Skills (A Sorcerer has better things to spend stats on than Int; as Int is the Wizard's primary casting stat, the Wizard gets a lot more skill points)
Spell Access (a Wizard gets access to spells one level earlier)

Jade_Tarem
2007-01-21, 04:11 AM
Sorcerers worthless? I take it your friend has never fought a good one before...

One extra consideration... It's ok to go straight sorcerer if you're willing to do a monster character. Sorcerer levels are much easier to deal with than wizard levels when you're playing a race with no hands or such. I even stuck sorcerer levels on a lantern archon one time. As long as you choose well, you can create some surprisingly effective combonations. For example:

Lantern Archon Sorcerer:

Bonuses: Flight, Teleportation, Archon Traits make it difficult to kill and reduce the number of spells you need. Light and dimension door, for instance, are pointless. Immune to electricity and petrification. Also, 2 light rays. LA 0. The last one is especially important to a full caster, as is the massively increased survivability that the high speeds, flight, teleportation, and Magic Circle give it. And before someone says it: I know that the dash in the MM1 doesn't mean 0.

Penalties: Restricted Equipment usage (although as it turns out, you can still get on a cloak, a ring, a circlet, a belt, and an amulet.), Low strength and intelligence, small and delicate, alignment restriction (you really do need it to be good), almost impossible to hide, and most of all: you need 2 feats (surrogate spellcasting and eschew materials) to allow it to cast spells! Also there's the penalty of snobbish other characters arguing that it isn't supposed to be a playable race, but really they're just jealous.

It's also easy to play a different race that sorcerer works for. Anything incorporeal, for example, although it will almost assuredly have LA, is good for sorcerer levels. Also up-front combat monsters can mix well with the 1-5 level buffs the sorcerer can spam on a daily basis.

And as someone said, you can create a sorcerer build that can, with a round's prep time, cast any spell in the game. Period. If you don't go the monster road, be sure to get into PrC's quickly. Good luck!

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-01-21, 04:22 AM
Who needs wizards. They spend all thier time reading thier silly books, what is a sorcerer doing when a wizard is busy reading on how to make fire? The sorcerer is getting laid. :smallwink:

InaVegt
2007-01-21, 05:49 AM
Yes, an intelligently played sorcerer is very powerfull. A few pointers for becoming more efficient are:

Make sure you have a couple of safe or be screwed spells, preferably at your higher levels. Core save or be screwed spells follow:

1st: Sleep, color spray
2nd: Scare
3rd: Deep slumber, Hold person
4th: Phantasmal killer, Fear
5th: Dominate person, Hold monster
6th: Circle of death, Flesh to stone
7th: Mass hold person, Finger of Death
8th: Sunburst, Polymorph any object
9th: Imprisonment, Dominate monster, Mass hold monster, Mage's disjunction (or Mordenkainen's as it is in the PHB), Wail of the banshee.

While there might be more spells which you could consider save or be screwed I personally think they are less usefull or have no combat value (Sepia's snake sigil for example is a great save or be screwed spell, but is essentially a trap, not a combat spell. Trap the soul, while effective is expensive and most useful with the trigger object option, as a trap) I do not reccomend you take all of these, only a couple of the higher level ones as the lower level ones are of little to no use at higher levels. If you play at 1st level however, color spray and sleep can be mighty handy spells.

Use the spells known slots not filled with safe or be screwed spells with buffs and utility spells, those stay usefull for their low levels (A knock spell is very usefull, even at higher levels)

Telok
2007-01-21, 11:55 AM
Don't forget the simple spells, the old school spells, and the fact that you can cast them alot. Nice simple Magic Missle is always useful if you just don't know what else to do that round.

One game I played in as a halfling sorcerer I said "Cast Invisibility and step behind the cleric (or under the wagon)" so often and usually before it came to rolling for initative that the GM simply stopped targeting the character with most attacks. The landshark was an unpleasantly memorable exception at level 7. On another hand the game I currently play in has a bast-o sorcerer who does not have Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Fly, Teleport, and other spells I would consider standard fare. His character is so focused at blasting that the player suffers from boredom when there isn't combat going on because he simply can't do things outside combat. A recent combat with Iron Golems and advanced Yuan-Ti went badly for him too. Between SR, saves, and immunities he lost several rounds to sheer indecision when simply blowing stuff up failed as a tatic.

Don't neglect functional and multi-functional spells, don't neglect your defenses, don't forget to take non-combat spells. A sorcerer can get by quite well with one offensive spell every odd spell level, but two offensive spells every spell level is really going to hurt the character. Lastly, while entering a prestige class may be nice and all, you don't need to.

the_tick_rules
2007-01-21, 12:18 PM
well it's just the wizards are #1 and every other class is useless mentality that seems to be rampant here.

Roderick_BR
2007-01-21, 12:42 PM
Sorcerers cast 2 more spells a day than the wizard. Not worthless to me.
Yes, limited learned spells. But then again, what happens when a wizard faces a situation, and he just has the right spell.... but didn't prepare it? Or prepared it, already used, and now has nothing more? And whatever is happening, need to be fixed in the next 5 minut... too late.
It depends more on the flavor of your spellcaster.