Best class for gestalt with...

[HereBeMonsters]

What is best to gestalt with warlock.

Our DM is gonna try a new way to run the warlock in PF. And that is the warlock knows all his invocations when he gains the new level but he can only cast as many as he would have known before. Just to see if it makes it stronger.

[Dread_Head]

In terms of power a full caster would probably be best, using the warlocks invocations for utility and mostly focusing on spells in combat.

Otherwise look at the X stat to Y (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread and dip lots of classes that add Cha to things would be good.

Not particularly powerful but I kinda like the idea of a Spellthief // Warlock, ymmv though. Or again Warlock // Binder had tons of flavour, maybe with some Hexblade in there.

[HereBeMonsters]

Ok any casters by name you suggest?
I know cha is its casting stat but dont let that hinder good suggestions

[Cog]

And that is the warlock knows all his invocations when he gains the new level but he can only cast as many as he would have known before.
This part isn't quite clear. Say, for a given tier of invocations, the warlock would have known two. Does that mean he can use any invocations of that tier but as soon as he's cast two of them he's done? That he chooses two to know on any given day but can change them each day? Or..?

The answer to this changes the Warlock's flexibility, and so changes what might be best on the other side.

[Big Fau]

In general, the best classes to Gestalt with depend on what your other class does. For Gestalt there are four things to look for:


Activate benefits, which are abilities that require a Move/Standard/Full Round action to use (most spells, almost every maneuver out there, etc)
Passive benefits, which are abilities that use Swift/Immediate/Free actions or are just simply always on (long-duration spells count in this category)
Chassis benefits, which are the BAB, HD, Proficiencies, Skill points, saves, and bonus feats the class provides. Even the lowly Warrior can provide Full BAB, good Fort, and a d8 HD for a Wizard.
Synergy benefits, which are fairly subtle. Most forms of synergy benefits involve passive effects that key off of your ability scores, such as a Swordsage//Cleric wearing Light armor or a Psion//Warblade with a high Int.


Every class has elements of each benefit, but the classes in Tier 4 and up have a heavier focus on Active ones and a lot more Passive ones than just Chassis or Synergy.

For you, I'd recommend a Psionic class like the Ardent, Psychic Warrior, or Psion. While this induces some MAD, both the Warlock and the Psionic classes have a vast array of Passive benefits that you can keep up all day long and both classes have nice number of Active benefits. The Psionic classes can bypass the action economy and allow you to either use your Eldritch Blast/Invocations and manifest a Power in the same round, possibly even multiple times per round. This makes them ideal for a Warlock, as they shore up a weakness of the class (action limitations), and the Warlock's Eldritch Blast can allow you to conserve Power Points throughout the day.

Your DM's rules on the Warlock's invocations aren't very clear. Could you clarify how that works exactly? Is it like the Spirit Shaman's spell list, or closer to the Erudite's Unique Powers/Day mechanic (if it's the latter you're significantly more flexible, but the former is also a good deal of an improvement).

[Red Fel]

I can tell you, in a non-gestalt build, Warlock fits in comfortably with Binder and Hellfire Warlock, both in terms of flavor and in terms of mechanics. It would be easy to slap Warlock on one side, Binder and HellWar on the other, and throw in a few extra class levels here or there for fun.

In particular - and this one's just off the top of my head - if you don't mind being a little MAD, why not go for bizarro gold? Go Warlock/Binder/HellWar on one side, Cleric/Crusader/RKV on the other, and be a lasering-murdering-slaying-holy-unholy-warrior-wizard-thing-who-flies-and-moves-in-shadows. Be vengeance. Be the night. Be invisible laser-Batman.

Admittedly, the overall mechanics might not be ideal. But if you used most of your invocations for passives, used your Cleric spells for buffing, and your primary active abilities were Hellfire Blast and maneuvers... You could be kind of awesome. Mostly impractical, but kind of awesome.

... It actually reads like a terrible idea, now that I've written it, but it just sounded too cool to delete...

EDIT: Ooh, right, PF. I guess you could port some of this over from 3.5, maybe?

[Dread_Head]

Depends what you want to do with the build, Sorcerer is obviously a good choice for Cha synergy and the good list to choose spells from, it also fits quite nicely fluff wise with the Warlock. I don't know much about the PF classes but I think Oracle casts of Cha? That would be decent as well. You could chooses any caster really and focus on invocations that don't allow saves thus meaning you don't need to focus on Cha. Most powerful of all would probably be a God Wizard but that then makes your Warlock abilities pretty irrelevant and would be better combined with something else.

It depends what you want to do really but be aware that if you choose a caster to gestalt with then it's gonna overshadow your Warlock abilities most of the time.

[Erik Vale]

This part isn't quite clear. Say, for a given tier of invocations, the warlock would have known two. Does that mean he can use any invocations of that tier but as soon as he's cast two of them he's done? That he chooses two to know on any given day but can change them each day? Or..?

The answer to this changes the Warlock's flexibility, and so changes what might be best on the other side.

Agree for need for further clarification.
Sorcerer can be good fluff wise and synagises well due to charisma dependency. That, and it can grant you a ton of abilities you couldn't have. But, it'll likely make it a more sorcerer|warlock instead of warlock|sorcerer.

Rogue's also work well, and their SA synergises with several invocations well. There's a ninja headband and some sort of goggles that alow unlim range in concealment SA which is awesome for reaching out and touching. For extra range grab a channeling weapon and burn one of your unlimited uses of any invocation/blast to add to the weapons damage+SA.

For more than that I'm going to have to take a quick look. Might I suggest you add a PF tag to the thread tittle, I almost thought this was 3.5.


Edit:
Other suggestions and why-
Cavaliar- Luring Cavaliars Far Challenge + Mount can be very useful, or the additional mobility from a mount can be useful for a glaive/clawlock same with proficiencies etc. Highly variable abilities to suit to taste. And of course, I'm thinking a lance charge with Channeling for EB would be overkill in many awesome ways.

Gunslinger- If available, longer ranged attacks that still can use touch attacks while channelling EB, and bonuses for light armor and some useful deeds. If you want grit to synergise with casting then Mysterious stranger will work, and you'll have a will save that turns will save negates spells into useless timesinks for enemies.


Oracle- See sorcerer, but for divine casting.

Summoner- Free meatshields. Also, pursuing the Synthesist Archetype would toughen you up a fair bit... Of course, creating some form of mitheral golem and then turning it into a armor golem would do the same.

Ninja- See rogue.

[HereBeMonsters]

Was posting on my phone so I am sorry for the limited details.

Ok so at level 1 The Warlock will known all Least Invocations but only be able to cast 1 Invocation per day or per 8 hour rest period. So in theory he could change those invocations after he rests so he could in theory change it 3 times per day but thats very unlikely.

Now as he levels up to say level 6 and gains lesser he can use 6 total Invocations a day composed of Least or Lesser.

I might suggest upping the first level to 2 invocations and adding a Invocation every level or every odd level.

Oracle is nice its basically a divine Sorcerer with some nice tricks to boot.
I honestly considered the Sha'ir due to the Warlocks abilities being able to be used during the Sha'irs Gen retrieval time but even that seems a little iffy.

How do you think Magus would work with the Warlock?

[Cog]

Your DM has not buffed the Warlock, he's nerfed it. Warlock blasting is merely okay, and the selling point is that they're a reliable toolkit in or out of combat. You'll need something with staying power on the other side, but there's little reason to even play a Warlock with that ruling, because you'll spend very little time actually playing a Warlock.

[Erik Vale]

Was posting on my phone so I am sorry for the limited details.

Ok so at level 1 The Warlock will known all Least Invocations but only be able to cast 1 Invocation per day or per 8 hour rest period. So in theory he could change those invocations after he rests so he could in theory change it 3 times per day but thats very unlikely.

Now as he levels up to say level 6 and gains lesser he can use 6 total Invocations a day composed of Least or Lesser.

I might suggest upping the first level to 2 invocations and adding a Invocation every level or every odd level.

Oracle is nice its basically a divine Sorcerer with some nice tricks to boot.
I honestly considered the Sha'ir due to the Warlocks abilities being able to be used during the Sha'irs Gen retrieval time but even that seems a little iffy.

How do you think Magus would work with the Warlock?

Again, stuffed up wording. I take it by X/day you mean you choose X invocations to use unlim/day?

Magus's abilities don't fully synergise, being a int caster and all it's abilities effecting spells, not SLA's. However it's armor training could be useful, however you could be able to snag battlecaster for that.

Also, the other suggestions I just edited in after your post:
Other suggestions and why-
Cavaliar- Luring Cavaliars Far Challenge + Mount can be very useful, or the additional mobility from a mount can be useful for a glaivelock [getting into range without using actions]/clawlock[See emissary, stupidly named but mobile full attacking on a charge] same with proficiencies etc. Highly variable abilities to suit to taste. And of course, I'm thinking a lance charge with Channeling for EB would be overkill in many awesome ways.

Gunslinger- If available, longer ranged attacks that still can use touch attacks while channelling EB [I like Chanelling weapons with warlocks if you can tell. Minimum cost is Weapon + 4000 [+1 Chanelling]], and bonuses for light armor and some useful deeds. If you want grit to synergise with casting then Mysterious stranger will work, and you'll have a will save that turns will save negates spells into useless timesinks for enemies.


Oracle- See sorcerer, but for divine casting. [Powerful and fill gaps, could very well overshadow]

Summoner- Free meatshields. Also, pursuing the Synthesist Archetype would toughen you up a fair bit... Of course, creating some form of mitheral golem and then turning it into a armor golem would do the same. Again liable to overshadow.

Ninja- See rogue. [Synergy if sneaking basically]

Edit: Personal favouritte is either Warlock|Rouge [or ninja], or Warlock|Cavaliar/Gunslinger

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For a gestalt Warlock, unless you're mixing it with a Tier 1-2, you put Enlightened Spirit with it from 6th-15th level. Its bonus EB damage is not the same as a progression of the EB class feature, and will stack with the Warlock progression. Its bonus invocations known are specific invocations gained rather than a progression of Warlock invocations known, and will stack with what a Warlock gets. You even get access to Greater invocations a level sooner with it.

For levels 1-5 and 16-20, I'd probably throw in Mystic Wildshape Ranger to also have 5th level Ranger spells and considerably better BAB, skill points, HD, and base saves.

As for this houserule on invocations known, if you mean the normal number of invocations known is your limit on invocations used per day, it's not even worth using the class any more. If you mean the normal number of invocations known is how many invocations you can pick to have access to in a given day, then it's awesome. Enlightened Spirit is still a superb choice even if you'll only get its specific invocations, especially with the improved EB damage.

You could also consider something like Warlock 20// Binder 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Binder 2, and bind Naberius to use that sweet, sweet Hellfire Blast as often as you want.

[Erik Vale]

-snip-

PF Thread [As said, please put it into the tittle].

[Zweisteine]

I would recommend choosing the Incarnate class, or maybe the Totemist class. Incarnum is very good in gestalt, and quite a few soulmelds would buff Eldritch Blast quite well. Of course, you lose skill points and reflex saves as an Incarnate, which is far better to go with Warlock...

[Greenish]

Ok so at level 1 The Warlock will known all Least Invocations but only be able to cast 1 Invocation per day or per 8 hour rest period.…That just makes warlock into the worst sorcerer ever.


Well, good Will save and the 24-hour buffs are still something a scrapper like barbarian or fighter could use.

[Psyren]

If it's PF I'd gestalt it with Ninja.

- Cha-synergy (invocations, ki pool, assassinate.)
- Full sneak attack + eldritch glaive
- Detect and Disable traps from afar with Baleful Utterance/Voracious Dispelling
- Tons of skill points, 2 good saves etc.

[Snowbluff]

…That just makes warlock into the worst sorcerer ever.


It's a agreed, then. Gestalt Sorcerer. :smalltongue:

[HereBeMonsters]

Ok so the normal Warlock gets 1 Invocation at level 1. Well instead the class gets access to all his Invocations when he reaches a level he can use them so at level 1 he knowns all Least Invocations.
However he uses it somewhat like a Erudite in that he picks 1 Invocation to use per day but can use it unlimited number of times per day but can choose to change that invocation out after 8 hours of rest.

So at level 1 he can wake up and choose any 1 of the Least Invocations to use that day.

However like I said considering making it more then 1 per level 1