[3.5] 'Reasonable' factotum build help

[Mashashige]

Short preamble:
I've started a game in a new group (we've had 2 sessions so far) - most of us are newbies (or with limited gameplay experience) - the group comp, so far (just leveled up to 2):

Crusader
Spirit shaman
Rogue/Swashbuckler
Warlock
Beguiler
Human Factotum (me)

As we're mostly newbs, assume no to low-med optimization across the board.

The setup:
25 pb, most 3rd party books allowed. DM is very much against cheese (so no IF, max 4 FoI, no whisper gnome LA+0, etc).
I went 8,13,12,16,8,14, Able learner (for future chameleon PrC), FoI, assorted skills at lvl 1.

The question(s):
1. Is this a viable starting build? Have I gimped myself hard for the future?
2. Since low dex/str means no archery or trip builds, how else would you suggest I be viable in combat?
3. Would some along the lines of the factotum/chameleon/MoM/x be viable Any suggestions for something that doesn't feel useless in combat? Currently I feel very much the 6th (quite useless) wheel.
4. (bonus request) Assuming I could start over, could anyone suggest their ideal build for lvl 1 under the above conditions? I'd love to learn where I went wrong.

Thanks in advance,
Mash :)

[Flickerdart]

>No cheese = no IF
>Weaker version of Sneak Attack that requires valuable skill point investment, doesn't run on a useful stat, and triggers in approximately no situations is cheesy
>MRW

:smallsigh:

[(Un)Inspired]

First of all, congratulations on having such a cool party make up for a bunch of first time DnD players. I ran a table for my friends first attempt in 3.P and I got a fighter, a gunslinger, a ranger/rogue alternating EVERY level and a spell thief...

I hate those guys some times...

Anyway, the best advice I can give you is to skip chameleon. It's an incredibly cool prestige class and I know the factotum class entry even suggests taking it but factotum alone can do almost all the things that chameleon can do. Basically chameleon doesn't bring enough new stuff to your character to justify taking it over some other flavorful and strong options.

Your best bet is to figure out what kind of Factotum you want to be. Do you want to end up swinging a weapon in melee with blinding style and power? Do you want to cast powerful divine spells? Arcane spells?

I've played two factotum, both for very brief periods. One ended up with levels of ardent and Elocator. He used his factotum abilities to backup his psychic manifesting.

The other was a factotum/swordsage. My DM let me use the feat kind fu genius to switch the swordsages bonus to ac to int from wis. He was kind of like a combination of a stereotypical ninja and Clint Eastwood from the good the bad and the ugly.

[Mashashige]

>No cheese = no IF
>Weaker version of Sneak Attack that requires valuable skill point investment, doesn't run on a useful stat, and triggers in approximately no situations is cheesy
>MRW

:smallsigh:

I guess I should have said limited cheese - max 4 FoI is a bit limited in scope, especially when I doubt he'd let me do more than 1 cunning surge per round.

Anyway, my questions still stand :)

[Mashashige]

First of all, congratulations on having such a cool party make up for a bunch of first time DnD players. I ran a table for my friends first attempt in 3.P and I got a fighter, a gunslinger, a ranger/rogue alternating EVERY level and a spell thief...

I hate those guys some times...

Anyway, the best advice I can give you is to skip chameleon. It's an incredibly cool prestige class and I know the factotum class entry even suggests taking it but factotum alone can do almost all the things that chameleon can do. Basically chameleon doesn't bring enough new stuff to your character to justify taking it over some other flavorful and strong options.

Your best bet is to figure out what kind of Factotum you want to be. Do you want to end up swinging a weapon in melee with blinding style and power? Do you want to cast powerful divine spells? Arcane spells?

I've played two factotum, both for very brief periods. One ended up with levels of ardent and Elocator. He used his factotum abilities to backup his psychic manifesting.

The other was a factotum/swordsage. My DM let me use the feat kind fu genius to switch the swordsages bonus to ac to int from wis. He was kind of like a combination of a stereotypical ninja and Clint Eastwood from the good the bad and the ugly.

Yeah, I've been having problems decide what kind of flavor to give my factotum, especially since the party is so varied. Thing is, with 8 str and 13 dex, I'm guessing going for a ToB class is a bit out of the question, and while dropping chameleon is possible, that means able learner is a burned feat.

I should also note that he basically relegated those of us with some knowledge of the game to tier 3 and under - that is, tier 1+2 are banned :smallamused:

[Kazyan]

>No cheese = no IF
>Weaker version of Sneak Attack that requires valuable skill point investment, doesn't run on a useful stat, and triggers in approximately no situations is cheesy
>MRW

:smallsigh:

Sometimes it's not about mechanics; sometimes people don't like taking things form alternate setting books.

[Flickerdart]

Sometimes it's not about mechanics; sometimes people don't like taking things form alternate setting books.
That's not cheese, that's a fluff objection.

[(Un)Inspired]

Yeah, I've been having problems decide what kind of flavor to give my factotum, especially since the party is so varied. Thing is, with 8 str and 13 dex, I'm guessing going for a ToB class is a bit out of the question, and while dropping chameleon is possible, that means able learner is a burned feat.

I should also note that he basically relegated those of us with some knowledge of the game to tier 3 and under - that is, tier 1+2 are banned :smallamused:

What alignment is your character? Do you want to subvert your DMs draconian ways? How hard and fast does he stick to the tier system ? What are your characters other ability scores?

Also, able learner is still a good feat without chameleon.

[Dunditschia]

Also, able learner is still a good feat without chameleon.

Only when multiclassing though, otherwise it's useless.

You might want to do some dips to use it though, like cloistered cleric for devotion feats, but your low wis means you can't even use the spells. And the DM might still find it too cheesy.

If you get one more point of CHA and 8 points in intimidate, you can get the awesome feat imperious command, from drow of the underdark, that will let you use the intimidate skill to let an enemy cower in fear during its turn, making it useless, and then be shaken. Unless you use your next turn to let it cower again, of course. This can give you some pretty great combat utility when fighting against single enemies or a small group.

Combine this with the Never Outnumbered skill strick from complete scoundrel, and once per encounter you can cause all enemies within (I think) 30 feet to cower in fear for you.

[Mashashige]

What alignment is your character? Do you want to subvert your DMs draconian ways? How hard and fast does he stick to the tier system ? What are your characters other ability scores?

Also, able learner is still a good feat without chameleon.


I'm not sure as far to how hard and fast he sticks to the tier system, but he did send us all a like to JaronK's tier list when we made chars, so I assume he is sorta adamant about it. More than that, I get the feeling that while he's a bit lenient about most things, he doesn't appriciate obvious power grabs.
Also, he has a very wicked smile every time one of us rolls a natural one - makes me worry as to what will happen if I get on his bad side :smalltongue:

As for my char - CN, 8,13,12,16,8,14.

[Dread_Head]

1. I'd say your build is ok but not brilliant, the high Cha is cool and all concept wise but it's doing very little to help with your build. You'd be better off with some of it invested in a physical stat if you want to be able to do something in combat. If you're going Chameleon you probably want a higher Wis so you can use the divine focus sometimes as it's one of the best things Chameleon grants.

Aside: 25pb is brutal, I'm glad I've never been forced to use it.

2. Without Str / Dex you're going to struggle to contribute damage to combat. You don't have access to spells through Arcane Dilettante and Chameleon yet but when you do that should be your focus in combat. In the mean time load up on Alchemical items, at this level acid and alchemists fire are still doing ok damage and tanglefoot bags are amazing debuffs. Seriously loading up on tanglefoot bags and spending combat throwing them at enemies would be a valid strategy at this point.

Or accept that you won't be great in combat for the moment and that your character will really only shine in non-combat situations.

3. Your builds going to take a while to build up speed and you wont become truly effective in combat til you've taken a couple of levels of Chameleon. However Factotum is most effective in out of combat situations such as sneaking, trapfinding and social interactions. If your game isn't focusing on those so much then you should maybe aim for something else.

4. In terms of rebuilding first of all lose some Cha and boost Dex and Con some more. Also consider not heading for Chameleon as this will free you up the Able Learner feat which isn't doing much for you at the moment for something more combat oriented (an archery feat would probably be best). If you're dead set on going Chameleon then drop your Cha and invest it into Wis instead so you can use the Divine focus later. In the mean time put your Wis to good use through the Zen Archery feat (replacing FoI).

[Kennisiou]

Honestly your best bet without IF and archery is to go intimidator factotum. Basically you wield a halberd and have spiked gauntlets, intimidate with the never outnumbered skill trick and the feat imperious command and you've just caused everyone within ten feet of you to become cowering (assuming you succeed on the check). Add in the armor enhancement from drow of the underdark and you can do this as a swift action once an encounter (skill trick and armor enhance both have 1/encounter limit). From there you can follow up by just beating the **** out of people with your halberd and sneak attacking them using your cunning strike, as many times as your cunning surges will allow.

Generally this strategy is combined with Iaijutsu Focus to deal heavy damage, but you still have a completely valid combat tactic using this strategy without IF.

[Mashashige]

Only when multiclassing though, otherwise it's useless.

You might want to do some dips to use it though, like cloistered cleric for devotion feats, but your low wis means you can't even use the spells. And the DM might still find it too cheesy.

If you get one more point of CHA and 8 points in intimidate, you can get the awesome feat imperious command, from drow of the underdark, that will let you use the intimidate skill to let an enemy cower in fear during its turn, making it useless, and then be shaken. Unless you use your next turn to let it cower again, of course. This can give you some pretty great combat utility when fighting against single enemies or a small group.

Combine this with the Never Outnumbered skill strick from complete scoundrel, and once per encounter you can cause all enemies within (I think) 30 feet to cower in fear for you.

That was my plan on going high charisma rather that str or dex - IC at level 6, and I got DM approval before hand. However, it is still a one trick thing. Also, afaik it's 10 feet LoS, which could be problematic with my low defense. I guess SS/Warblade could help with that, but then again, they'll be more useful for supporting style maneuvers than for combat as my physical att are low.

[Mashashige]

1. I'd say your build is ok but not brilliant, the high Cha is cool and all concept wise but it's doing very little to help with your build. You'd be better off with some of it invested in a physical stat if you want to be able to do something in combat. If you're going Chameleon you probably want a higher Wis so you can use the divine focus sometimes as it's one of the best things Chameleon grants.

Aside: 25pb is brutal, I'm glad I've never been forced to use it.

2. Without Str / Dex you're going to struggle to contribute damage to combat. You don't have access to spells through Arcane Dilettante and Chameleon yet but when you do that should be your focus in combat. In the mean time load up on Alchemical items, at this level acid and alchemists fire are still doing ok damage and tanglefoot bags are amazing debuffs. Seriously loading up on tanglefoot bags and spending combat throwing them at enemies would be a valid strategy at this point.

Or accept that you won't be great in combat for the moment and that your character will really only shine in non-combat situations.

3. Your builds going to take a while to build up speed and you wont become truly effective in combat til you've taken a couple of levels of Chameleon. However Factotum is most effective in out of combat situations such as sneaking, trapfinding and social interactions. If your game isn't focusing on those so much then you should maybe aim for something else.

4. In terms of rebuilding first of all lose some Cha and boost Dex and Con some more. Also consider not heading for Chameleon as this will free you up the Able Learner feat which isn't doing much for you at the moment for something more combat oriented (an archery feat would probably be best). If you're dead set on going Chameleon then drop your Cha and invest it into Wis instead so you can use the Divine focus later. In the mean time put your Wis to good use through the Zen Archery feat (replacing FoI).

25PB really is a pain, more so for me as that odd numbered attribute just really grinds me the wrong way :)

I was thinking that I'd just have to settle to for some batman utility belt type thing and try to play smart around combat situations rather than actually deal damage (I'd love to do some shananigans with feather tokens), but WBL at lower levels (1-3) makes that option a bit limited until we level up some more.

Any thoughts about something like factotum 3 (or 8)/chameleon 2/ something else to add combat versatility?

[Slipperychicken]

As a Factotum, you're really more about utility than damage. Accept that, and try not to worry about taking center stage in level 1 combat (the Crusader and Rogue should have that covered). Also, a Factotum's real value is being able to contribute wherever a party role is lacking: If the healer needs to be in two places at once, you can do one of those for him. If a spell needs to be cast, you can cast it (or have a scroll ready, or just prepare it tomorrow you bastard). If there's an obscure skill which would be really useful right now (*cough* Forgery! *cough* *cough*), you can do it at least once a day. If anyone ever uses a skill for anything, you can Aid Another and give them a +2. If the fighters are having a hard time, you can rush in and give them a hand.

In combat, a Factotum is kind of like a Bard, only without Inspire Courage. For now you're going to want to do something which doesn't require much investment. Like throwing nets or tanglefoot bags at people, flank, intimidate, use Aid Another. Arcane Dilettante (IIRC) lets you use sorc/wiz scrolls, which you should possess in abundance to pull out at the right time to solve problems (among other things, it will really help if you can get scrolls of spells to help your fighters bypass DR/Hardness and hit incorporeal creatures). Your Beguiler likely has enchantment save-or-lose covered, so you can probably save yourself the trouble of prepping those.

If you're not going to multiclass (which is a perfectly valid choice), you could try to re-spec Able Learner to be Knowledge Devotion or another iteration of Font of Inspiration.

(EDIT: Also, since you're supposed to be good at skills, try to get Masterwork Tools for them when you can afford it)

[Snowbluff]

First of all, congratulations on having such a cool party make up for a bunch of first time DnD players. I ran a table for my friends first attempt in 3.P and I got a fighter, a gunslinger, a ranger/rogue alternating EVERY level and a spell thief...


You have no idea how many first time/new guy rogues I've had to DM for. We had a few first timers over for a game I was running, and I won a bet when everyone said they wanted to play the rogue. :smalltongue:

[gorfnab]

Obligatory link to Factotum Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8685.0)
Knowledge Devotion will get you a little bit of a damage boost. Maybe you could sneak in a level or two of Warblade (something like Factotum 8/ Warblade 2/ Chameleon 10).

[FMArthur]

As a big lover of the Chameleon prestige class, I would actually suggest sticking to progressing Factotum. Most of your Factotum progression feels redundant when Chameleon picks up and low-level abilities fall off, but you'd also get overall more powerful abilities out of continuing into Factotum because you're already so far into the class, and more things to do with them. You get less spell slots, but a Factotum is usually much more useful at everything that isn't spellcasting (the Chameleon as-written favors its spellcasting options quite a bit), so he doesn't have to empty them nearly as fast, AND winds up with higher level Wizard spells eventually.

It's comparable as an arcane caster and better in melee as well as at skills, all at the same time. A Chameleon would only be good at one of those at a time, eventually two. There are very strong advantages to going either class compared separately, but the abilities are for the most part going to compete with each other if put on the same character.

[(Un)Inspired]

You have no idea how many first time/new guy rogues I've had to DM for. We had a few first timers over for a game I was running, and I won a bet when everyone said they wanted to play the rogue. :smalltongue:

Sounds like kind of a Pyrrhic victory. Seriously, I've had to hit so many players with my DMG to get them to make smart choices that I should just take the item familiar feat and start optimizing the damn thing.

Can factotum spell casting qualify for sublime chord? If so, with your high charisma it might be something to consider. Your never gonna land any spells that allow a save with your cha. But you can use inspiration points to really hurt people with enervation and sorcerer casting is still full of fun utility.

[Mashashige]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Seems like my best bet is either:
1. full factotum 20 (retrain able learner to something useful - maybe go less optimized trip build, or grab knowledge devotion along with grant familiar at 3 and IC at 6 or something)
2. factotum multiclass:

Factotum 18/chameleon 2 (lose cunning brilliance, gain floating feat (crafting and such) and some low level spells)
Factotum 19/ 1 level dip (mindbender for blindsight with telepathy, SS or warblade for some maneuvers at mid levels, monk for int to ac, exemplar for taking 10, marshal for one aura)
Factotum 17/uncanny trickster 3 (get 3 skill tricks and 6 more skill points)


Other options include warshaper (assuming SLA polymorph can qualify), incarnate for skills or totemist for abusing manticore belt with cunning surge, maybe longer dips to warblade or chameleon, but they all seem lackluster due to my ability scores and the lack of synergy (also, if I was going to do factotum 8/warblade 12 or something, I might as well have just gone for another class).

As far as I see it, fact20 is a waste, so either go for cunning brilliance and add some interesting 1 level dip (SS/WB seem the most ideal, but mindbender seems awesome fluff wise, and exemplar makes me an even better skill monkey, so it's a toss-up), or drop cunning brilliance and grab the floating feat for some magical crafting fun.

Any thoughts?

[Snowbluff]

I don't remember posting anything constructive here. How about a vote for pure Factotum with nothing but fonts of inspiration and knowledge devotion?

Sounds like kind of a Pyrrhic victory. Seriously, I've had to hit so many players with my DMG to get them to make smart choices that I should just take the item familiar feat and start optimizing the damn thing. Eh, it was worth it once I pointed out to the guy I made the bet with that he had played a rogue his first game.

I woul dlet them make bad decisions, by the way. That way you can have an easy time making a rival for them. :smallwink:


Can factotum spell casting qualify for sublime chord? If so, with your high charisma it might be something to consider. Your never gonna land any spells that allow a save with your cha. But you can use inspiration points to really hurt people with enervation and sorcerer casting is still full of fun utility.
I don't know about it, but you would need to dip something that has casting anyway. It has a bardic music requirement, right?

[Mashashige]

Sounds like kind of a Pyrrhic victory. Seriously, I've had to hit so many players with my DMG to get them to make smart choices that I should just take the item familiar feat and start optimizing the damn thing.

Can factotum spell casting qualify for sublime chord? If so, with your high charisma it might be something to consider. Your never gonna land any spells that allow a save with your cha. But you can use inspiration points to really hurt people with enervation and sorcerer casting is still full of fun utility.

According to D&D tools, sublime chord requires:
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 13 ranks , Listen 13 ranks , Perform 10 ranks , Profession (astrologer) 6 ranks , Spellcraft 6 ranks
Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Special: Bardic music ability.

So unless I dip bard 1, I can't qualify due to bardic music. However, it is an interesting question whether I can qualify for the spell casting requirement - my hunch is RAW, I can't, since it's SLAs rather than spells, but I'm not 100% sure.

[Darth Stabber]

According to D&D tools, sublime chord requires:
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 13 ranks , Listen 13 ranks , Perform 10 ranks , Profession (astrologer) 6 ranks , Spellcraft 6 ranks
Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Special: Bardic music ability.

So unless I dip bard 1, I can't qualify due to bardic music. However, it is an interesting question whether I can qualify for the spell casting requirement - my hunch is RAW, I can't, since it's SLAs rather than spells, but I'm not 100% sure.
There is no verbiage in factotum to indicate that you would get to count it's SLA progression as a spell progression. SLAs aren't spells, as such you can't count it.

[Snowbluff]

There is no verbiage in factotum to indicate that you would get to count it's SLA progression as a spell progression. SLAs aren't spells, as such you can't count it.
Seconding this.

Would a Sublime Chord be considered reasonable?

[(Un)Inspired]

Such a shame. Factotum 8/ bard 1/ sublime chord X would be cool.

[D4rkh0rus]

I find that ranger 4 for the animal companion ( trade for urban familiar, its more versatile (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)), ranged feats and stuff is pretty nifty.

You also get access to ranger wands, track, you trade out wild empathy for spiritual connection (speak with animals or plants 3 times a day) and you max survival.

you got a full tracker that can communicate with the enviroment and a trusty animal follower (make it a raven and have it speak some obscure language you can speak like tuilvilianue (raptoran language)).

[Slipperychicken]

There is no verbiage in factotum to indicate that you would get to count it's SLA progression as a spell progression. SLAs aren't spells, as such you can't count it.

Complete Arcane page 72 states it explicitly:


Characters or creatures that use spell-like abilities or
invocations never learn the arcane circumlocutions of logic
and mental training necessary for advanced spellcasting.
As such, requirements for feats and prestige classes based
on specifi c levels of spells cast (“Able to cast 3rd-level arcane
spells,” for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or
invocations—not even spell-like abilities or invocations
that allow a character to use a specifi c arcane spell of the
appropriate level or higher.

Although it bears remembering (to avoid confusion) that "specific spellcasting requirements" (i.e. "must be able to cast [specific spell]) can be met by SLAs.


[also Complete Arcane page 72]
A requirement based on a specifi c spell measures whether
the character or creature in question is capable of producing
the necessary effect, and as such, invocations and spell-like
abilities that generate the relevant effect meet the requirements
for specifi c spell knowledge. For example, a prestige
class with a spellcasting requirement of “Must know (or be
able to cast) darkness” is met by a warlock who chooses darkness
as one of her invocations, or by any creature with darkness as
a spell-like ability.

[Snowbluff]

Seconding Urban Familiar. Also, Distracting Attack from PHB2 is really awesome. Ranger 4 is one of my favorite levels in the game.

Such a shame. Factotum 8/ bard 1/ sublime chord X would be cool.

It's possible with enough entry tricks. Versatile Spellcaster, Precocious Apprentice, Sanctum Spell... you have some many options! :smallbiggrin:

[(Un)Inspired]

Seconding Urban Familiar. Also, Distracting Attack from PHB2 is really awesome. Ranger 4 is one of my favorite levels in the game.


It's possible with enough entry tricks. Versatile Spellcaster, Precocious Apprentice, Sanctum Spell... you have some many options! :smallbiggrin:

Agreed but I think the OPs DM would ban the dickens out of any clever entry shenanigans.

[Mashashige]

Seconding this.

Would a Sublime Chord be considered reasonable?

I'll have to ask my DM about the sublime chord, but it's still at least 1 bard level + some fast casting progression class (or bard 7...). I could do chameleon 3, bard 1 to get the prereqs pretty fast, but that has a couple of issues - cha dependency for spells , and makes the factotum second fiddle - basically seems like if I want to do that I might as well retire my current char and restart.


I find that ranger 4 for the animal companion ( trade for urban familiar, its more versatile), ranged feats and stuff is pretty nifty.

You also get access to ranger wands, track, you trade out wild empathy for spiritual connection (speak with animals or plants 3 times a day) and you max survival.

you got a full tracker that can communicate with the enviroment and a trusty animal follower (make it a raven and have it speak some obscure language you can speak like tuilvilianue (raptoran language)).

A cool idea for sure. Couple of concerns though:
Archery is nice, but with low dex I'll find it hard to hit anything, and I really do need manyshot for the cunning surge synergy - which is unavailable with my dex score unless I get to ranger 6. Also, urban companion is essentially a familiar with some more HP - I could get a familiar with a feat investment. Also, speaking with animals can be done via scrolls (and ranger scrolls via UMD for that matter).

So essentially, I trade 4 levels of factotum (1 spell level, int to ac and cunning surge) for a familiar, +1/4 BAB progression, some fort saves, and track. For 4 levels of chameleon I get a free feat, +2 to an ability, and quite a lot of low level spells. Going warblade 4 also gives me a lot more in exchange. I love rangers, but it doesn't really fit here IMO.

BTW, idk how important it is, but I might mention that my DM went sorta PF on skills and consolidated them (stealth, linguistics, acrobatics, etc) - so I'll probably grab some more languages than usual and have more skill points to play around, which is cool :)

[D4rkh0rus]

I'll have to ask my DM about the sublime chord, but it's still at least 1 bard level + some fast casting progression class (or bard 7...). I could do chameleon 3, bard 1 to get the prereqs pretty fast, but that has a couple of issues - cha dependency for spells , and makes the factotum second fiddle - basically seems like if I want to do that I might as well retire my current char and restart.



A cool idea for sure. Couple of concerns though:
Archery is nice, but with low dex I'll find it hard to hit anything, and I really do need manyshot for the cunning surge synergy - which is unavailable with my dex score unless I get to ranger 6. Also, urban companion is essentially a familiar with some more HP - I could get a familiar with a feat investment. Also, speaking with animals can be done via scrolls (and ranger scrolls via UMD for that matter).

So essentially, I trade 4 levels of factotum (1 spell level, int to ac and cunning surge) for a familiar, +1/4 BAB progression, some fort saves, and track. For 4 levels of chameleon I get a free feat, +2 to an ability, and quite a lot of low level spells. Going warblade 4 also gives me a lot more in exchange. I love rangers, but it doesn't really fit here IMO.

BTW, idk how important it is, but I might mention that my DM went sorta PF on skills and consolidated them (stealth, linguistics, acrobatics, etc) - so I'll probably grab some more languages than usual and have more skill points to play around, which is cool :)

Unless your DM allows you to use White raven Tactics on yourself... Ranger 4 is still better.

Urban companion = extra turn since your familiar shares ALL your skills. (AKA UMD). You also get rapid shot, and by lvl 9 can get manyshot. Heck, if you can get items, you can get it at 6...
From what I remember, you CAN use enhancement bonuses to Dex to qualify for feats... the only problem is that if you lose the Dex from the item, you can't use the feat until you regain it. but then again, unless your DM likes placing everyone in antimagic zones..... a +2 item of dex should Do.

+2 to an ability isn't that great unless its Int and at lvl 1.

Factotum 10/Chameleon 2/Ranger 4/Uncanny Trickster 3/Warblade 1

Gets you a whole bunch of stuff, you can even go Two weapon fighting or Archery (choose from the ranger. If you go TWF get gloves of the balanced hand, they grant you TWF, and when you get TWF they grant the improved version, they only cost 8k too).

Or better yet,

Factotum 3/Ranger 11/Chameleon 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 1/Barbarian 1

Be a human or human variant and take able learner for all skills as class skills forever.
Heck im even sure that lesser tieflings can take able learner...

the main problem with the factotum is that after lvl 3, unless you focus on on Font of Inspiration and cunning surge, the next big lvl is at 16. So if your DM is limiting you on the amount of Cunning Surges you can do each turn, and the amount of FoI you can take... just dip 3 and move on.

Fighter is mainly there for the drow Fighter variant which gives you Dex to dmg in 30ft range (inc melee) when the opponent is flat footed. (Invisibility, win initiative, grease)... (Just have your trusty bird use a greater invisibility wand on you). Also... free feat. Feel free to take a second level of fighter if you're not too hard pressed on skills. Feats > Skills most of the time...
Remember that Able learner makes all your skills cost 1 point each regardless of class, and factotum gives you all skills as class skills...

Barbarian is for Lion Totem = Pounce. (full attack after a charge attack)

Warblade is there for either you or your bird (if you cant use tactics on yourself) If you're going purely ranged and you cant use it on yourself, then dont take the level and take a sword sage lvl instead. I could argue that if you cant use WRT on yourself and are going melee, swordsage is better than warblade if you cant spare the 2 feats to get shadow blade.

Either should be at lvl 9 to get lvl 3 maneuvers/stances.

Chameleon gives you the bonus floater feat, which IMHO is the best cut out point for the chameleon other than lvl 10

you could get a lvl or 2 of marshal if you need to, for skills and stuff.

If you are Ranged, try and get Drow fighter and dead shot (dragon compendium) for Dex to dmg x2 and dont forget to get splitting. That single enchantment is what makes archery viable compared to melee.

If you want to go crossbow, tyr and get both of those feats and the crossbow sniper for x2.5 Dex to dmg, get one of those enchanted autoreloading crossbows too.

If you're melee, try and get Drow fighter and Shadow Blade (requires shadow hand stance, may need to invest 2 feats (martial study/stance) apart from this one, but shadow jaunt/assassin stance/island of blades is pretty nice either way).
You can also go Str based with a 2h and power attack/shocktrooper/leap attack. you can do so with TWF but its not as good until the later levels.
You get x2 dex to dmg as well



[edit] Also, if you can get your DM to allow unnaproachable East (its allowed per RaW since all 3.0 books that weren't updated, work for 3.5) get keen Intellect. since you're dumping wisdom, you pretty much get to replace it with int with this feat. (all but 2 wisdom skills (Listen and Autohypnosis) and will saves key of Int with it)

and be sure to get 2 flaws for 2 extra feats at lvl 1.
Able Learner, Keen Intellect and an extra feat (or 2 if you go vanilla human) Id say Darkstalker if you're going for a stealth route (hide/MS maxed) since Darkstalker makes you a true scout.
If you got the 4th feat, id suggest rapid shot if ranged (then retrain to something else once you get it from ranger 2) (Im assuming you will go Fact 1-3 then ranger...) (If melee I don't know... hmm. although be sure to get weapon finesse by lvl 3, and dual wield shadowblade weapons to get dmg from shadow blade)

[Chronos]

If you want a familiar, you can get that on a straight factotum, from a feat (they don't have spells, but they do have an arcane caster level). You probably also want Darkstalker, and if you insist on optimizing for combat, Knowledge Devotion is a good idea. Really, there are so many other good feat options for a skillmonkey that I would suggest not to bother with Font of Inspiration at all (though I know that this is a minority opinion).

[Mashashige]

First, thanks for all the ideas guys :smallbiggrin:

So I've been thinking quite a bit, and it seems going archery is basically the best option I have (could try trip, but seems a bit weak) if I do go for something a bit more combat oriented. The issue is that I'm very much feat starved:

(Assuming 7 from lvl + 1 human)
Able learner
3-4 x FoI
knowledge devotion
Imperious command
Point blank
Rapid Shot
Manyshot

That basically puts me over the limit. Obviously I'd rather not retrain Able learner if I go multiclassing, and the floating feat from chameleon would be useful regardless.

On the other hand, I could say **** that, and go for something that's more general use:

Factotum 8/uncanny trickster 3/fighter 2 (passive way or martial monk would have been better, but **** lawful)/chameleon 2/mindbender 1/MoM 1/something 3

Able learner
3 FoI
knowledge devotion
Imperious command
mindsight
Darkstalker

combat expertise (fighter)
improved trip (fighter)

So tripping in combat is somewhat useful until higher level, keeps me in 10' range for imperious command, mindsight + darkstalker is cool for stealth, MoM for spiked chain (or kusri-gama and shield), uncanny trickster for all them yummy skill tricks, and that something 3 might as well be some swordsage for more utility based maneuvers or some other cool useful thing (or maybe something 2 and grab factotum 9 so I get the level 11 ignore SR/DR thing).

Still, if there was a way to get some more feats, I would kill for it, since I really would like a familiar (and it might make ranged combat a possibility).

Any ideals/suggestions/donation/job offers would be very much appreciated :smallsmile:

[Mashashige]

Actually, I'm starting to doubt my choice of uncanny trickster - it really doesn't add much to the table.

Also, I've warmed up to the ranger idea, but the progression is an issue - to actually be able to use manyshot without the prereqs, I need 6 levels (or at best, 2 feats and ranger 4), but for cunning surge combo I need factotum 8, so I'll still be quite weak in combat till 14 (or 12 with the price of two feats), and I'll lose on a lot of the versatility from arcane dilettante gimping my main source of contribution at lower levels.

Also, I'm seeing the same issue with chameleon - getting the floating feat anywhere after 12-14 makes it sorta weaker for using it with item creation feat and such.

Comments/ideas/etc are welcomed:smallsmile: