Tier problems

[Buufreak]

So until recently while lurking through the many internet forums, I had no idea that such thing as "tiers" existed. I understood some classes, both short and long run, are drastically better than others, but damn, a full ranking system?

Then I noticed something: the Truenamer isn't even listed in tiers, and instead noted as a broken (not working) class. Can anyone explain what this means, exactly? I like the idea of the class, and want to play one, but is there even a point if its completely worthless?

[The Insaniac]

Basically the Truenamer's problem is that it's either a tier 4 or a tier 6. If you can't break the skill checks wide open, then the Truenamer sucks horribly. Think of a wizard who needs to make spellcraft checks to cast each spell and the DC goes up every time you cast a given spell. On the other hand, you can end up being able to simply spam abilities if you do break the checks open. And you get gate.

For further reading take a look at Zaq's guide to truenaming http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214115.

[ryu]

So until recently while lurking through the many internet forums, I had no idea that such thing as "tiers" existed. I understood some classes, both short and long run, are drastically better than others, but damn, a full ranking system?

Then I noticed something: the Truenamer isn't even listed in tiers, and instead noted as a broken (not working) class. Can anyone explain what this means, exactly? I like the idea of the class, and want to play one, but is there even a point if its completely worthless?

Basically it's based on the fact that Truenaming is a silly and fundamentally broken mechanic as written. Not broken in the strong sense either. Essentially the class requires heavy optimization of the truenaming skill to get its basic abilities to continue functioning. This is because DC you have to meet to achieve the same effect you could before increase with level. It's borked in other silly ways too. You can't outright call it on the same level as commoners because with enough optimization it's higher tier than them in a demonstrable way. You can very easily suck muchly without some serious work though.

[eggynack]

Truenamers aren't completely worthless, but they are completely broken. The main reason they are untiered is because they react sporadically to optimization. With low optimization, they hang out in tiers 5 and 6, and with moderate to high optimization, they move up to tier 4. They're a lot like warlocks. The class is barely functional, with a mass of rules issues permeating it, and that further complicates the tier. There is a misconception that the massive power increase that conjunctive gate provides is responsible for the lack of tier, but the incredibly high level of that ability makes the tier impact negligible. Zaq's truenamer handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214115) is the best resource around if you seek more information on the general topic. It covers a lot of optimization stuff, as well as a lot of the reasons for the class' broken nature.

[Big Fau]

The class is so underpowered as to not be worth listing, except for if you can get it to 20th level and get the Conjunctive Gate utterance (which lets you spam Gate without XP penalty for chain-gating Titans/Solars). So it goes from Tier 6 to Tier 1 within the span of a single level (specifically, 19th > 20th).

However, those 19 levels are extremely underwhelming. The mechanics behind Truenaming scale faster than the mechanics used for Skill Ranks; by the time you hit 4th level you're looking at a DC 23 Truespeech check on average, +2 per previous use of that particular Utterance. On average you are looking at a base +10 (7 ranks + Skill Focus), which means each of your basic utterances can be used 1/day with a 60% chance of failing, and that failure rate increases by another 10% each time you succeed. You'd get 4 uses of 4 utterances at most.

And then you run into a CR 5, and suddenly the DC jumps to 25. If you've used any of your Utterances prior to that encounter, you've just run into a brick wall. It's a class that actively punishes you for using it's primary class feature.

Compare the Truenamer's utterances to spells or powers of similar level. The Truenamer's limitations means that you have to be far ahead of the skill check curve just to use abilities that a Wizard or Psion had several levels ago. The Truenamer's Haste effect? Single-target, doesn't come online until the mid-to-late levels, and lasts for 5 rounds.

The Wizard's Haste spell? It lasted for 5 rounds the day he learned it, and affected multiple creatures.

[Jormengand]

It's because it's variable tier. If you optimise properly, it has a range of no-save-just-suck abilities and pretty much unlimited out-of-combat healing, and some nasty damage tricks, not to mention that it can spam its abilities without recourse, but all its abilities are short-duration and it doesn't have any push-button-to-win abilities. It's T4.

If not, you can't actually make the truespeak DCs, or can't make them more than a few times per day. It's T5-6.

Then, at level 20, you get Conjunctive Gate (unless you got the other LPM 4 utterance which is generally bad), which has only a verbal component and no material or XP component, and can be cast quite a lot of times per day. It then becomes Tier No.


The class is so underpowered as to not be worth listing, except for if you can get it to 20th level and get the Conjunctive Gate utterance[...]

However, those 19 levels are extremely underwhelming. The mechanics behind Truenaming scale faster than the mechanics used for Skill Ranks; by the time you hit 4th level you're looking at a DC 23 Truespeech check on average, +2 per previous use of that particular Utterance. On average you are looking at a base +10 (7 ranks + Skill Focus), which means each of your basic utterances can be used 1/day with a 60% chance of failing, and that failure rate increases by another 10% each time you succeed. You'd get 4 uses of 4 utterances at most.

And then you run into a CR 5, and suddenly the DC jumps to 25. If you've used any of your Utterances prior to that encounter, you've just run into a brick wall. It's a class that actively punishes you for using it's primary class feature.

This is plain not true. If you get item familiar+mwk tool+skill focus+int 18 (You didn't even factor this in)+ Naen sigil then you're looking at a 17+2*level truespeak bonus (1 lower at level 1, because your sigil isn't quite ready yet) without even thinking about paragnostic assembly or AotST/GAotST. This means that at every truenamer level in existence, you can utter at a creature two levels higher than you at least once per day per utterance without actually rolling the truespeak check. GAotST, headband +6, and putting a couple of ability increases in INT bumps this up by 14, and there are so many other little bonuses that you can take several shots at whatever with each utterance before you actually have to start rolling for your empowered quickened utterances.

This is what I was saying - if you can actually optimise truenamer, you win at life. Not as much as a wizard, but as much as or more than rogues, barbarians and so forth. If you don't, you end up sucking horribly.


I mean, JaronK did say they were tier 4 to tier 6, so...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Truenamer is T4.

The optimization necessary to keep him functional is trivial and the fact that he can only use his utterances several times a day each and with a moderate chance of failure is the same as a a wizard or fighter with similar optimization.

Take Big Fau's example.

DC 23 against CR 4 opponents at level 4.

7 ranks + 3 int + 3 skill focus makes 13. That's hitting on a 10 or a 55% chance of success on each utterance. He won't be shut out of producing the same utterance until he's succeeded 6 times. Compare this to a wizard's 5 relevant spells per day, period, at the same level, barring specialization. In situations where he has the chance to prebuff he can utter universal aptitude to net himself an extra +5 for a +18 modifier and increase his chance to affect enemies to 80% for that combat.

Then compare to a 4th level fighter vs a CR 4's average AC of 17.

4 bab + 3 str + 1 weapon focus +1 masterwork weapon makes +9. That's hitting on 8 or better or a 65% chance to hit. That's only 10% better than the similarly op'ed truenamer and the fighter has no native way to improve this if he can prebuff.

You can optimize anything to push it way beyond basic competence but to assume that a class will function with -no- optimization at all is absurd.

[Psyren]

If you want a working, T3 Truenamer, check out Kyeudo's fix for the class in my extended sig. No need for item familiars or begging the DM for custom masterwork tools, just do normal stuff like SF: Truespeak and a headband of intellect.

[Chronos]

Truenamer is T4.

The optimization necessary to keep him functional is trivial...
Not really. You should be able to make a class work on a human using no books other than core and the book that introduced the class. But if you do that with the truenamer, and then take literally every single option available to you for increasing your skill checks, you'll still have a significant chance of failure on your utterances even the first time you use them each day, even before you consider the chance of failure from saves or SR. Gods help you if you didn't have all of those options available: Maybe your DM uses the elite array instead of point buy. Maybe you didn't want to absolutely tank all of your physical scores to be venerable. Maybe you haven't yet had a chance to get to town and buy the best Amulet of the Silver Tongue the moment you had enough wealth (it's not like you'll be finding one in random loot).

[Kelb_Panthera]

level 19; target DC 53

int starting 16, now 20

+5 headband of intellect

amulet of the silver tongue +10

pale green ioun stone

luckstone

skill focus

22 ranks




22 +3 SF + 8 INT + 10 AST + 1 Luck +1 Ioun = 45. Success on 8 or higher; 65% success.



All core except for the amulet, nothing even a little questionable, less than maximum possible intelligence, and no consideration for any buffs derived from spells (UMD as one of few class skills means a truenamer -will- have UMD) or even just universal aptitude.

Just increasing the intelligence by using a gray elf that starts at 20 and picks up a tome of clear thought nets another +4 to the modifier and gets the truenamer to an 85% success rate before buffs.

This is -not- high op.

[Kennisiou]

Honestly Truenamer's not quite as difficult to play as-written as people seem to think. It's also got a weird spot for power. Early on it's pretty solid (level one access to haste is phenominal! Put it on your ubercharger barb and just watch the carnage), and it kind gets a bit better, then levels out, then falls off after the middle levels up until you get speak to the masses, around which it becomes mid-to-high t4 (I've heard people say it's basically a T3 class at level 17, and I can understand why since their ability to mass buff or mass debuff is pretty phenomenal at the point).

[Psyren]

Early on it's pretty solid (level one access to haste is phenominal! Put it on your ubercharger barb and just watch the carnage)

Am I missing something? Greater Speed of the Zephyr is LEM 3 and Temporal Twist (ghetto haste - 1 free immediate attack out of order) is LEM 2. Neither are available at 1st-level.

Also, Zaq said outright that being a cheerleader is what they're best at. That doesn't make them good, because they're not a pet class, so you can't guarantee you'll have someone around to make optimal use of your mini-buffs.

[Emperor Tippy]

level 19; target DC 53

int starting 16, now 20

+5 headband of intellect

amulet of the silver tongue +10

pale green ioun stone

luckstone

skill focus

22 ranks




22 +3 SF + 8 INT + 10 AST + 1 Luck +1 Ioun = 45. Success on 8 or higher; 65% success.



All core except for the amulet, nothing even a little questionable, less than maximum possible intelligence, and no consideration for any buffs derived from spells (UMD as one of few class skills means a truenamer -will- have UMD) or even just universal aptitude.

Just increasing the intelligence by using a gray elf that starts at 20 and picks up a tome of clear thought nets another +4 to the modifier and gets the truenamer to an 85% success rate before buffs.

This is -not- high op.

Considering that some people hold that a Psion taking Psychic Reformation is too much optimization to impact on the tier list, yeah it is.

[137beth]

Considering that some people hold that a Psion taking Psychic Reformation is too much optimization to impact on the tier list, yeah it is.

What tier would the trunamer be at Tippy-levels of optimization?

[Coidzor]

So until recently while lurking through the many internet forums, I had no idea that such thing as "tiers" existed. I understood some classes, both short and long run, are drastically better than others, but damn, a full ranking system?

Then I noticed something: the Truenamer isn't even listed in tiers, and instead noted as a broken (not working) class. Can anyone explain what this means, exactly? I like the idea of the class, and want to play one, but is there even a point if its completely worthless?

It gets harder to use your basic abilities as you level rather than easier, especially your buffs, at the most basic level. The laws governing truenaming, especially the law of sequence, are occasionally part of the problem, but overshadowed mostly by the way the base DCs scale.


You can optimize anything to push it way beyond basic competence but to assume that a class will function with -no- optimization at all is absurd.

Investing items and wealth should make you better at doing something rather than be required to keep up. This holds true for spells, maneuvers, and powers. For meldshaping and binding to a more limited extent as well, IIRC. It does not hold true for truenaming. Shadowcasting starts out incompetent but finally gets its numbers up over time.

So investing the effort that for a Wizard makes them definitely more effective, a Truenamer is instead staying in the same place.

[Psyren]

This is -not- high op.

35% spell failure (and only going up from there) is pretty damn criminal though. That's 1 out of every 3 rounds where you've basically set your standard action on fire. And even when you went all out with the gray elf and wishes you're still at 15% spell failure. And keep in mind that challenging encounters will actually have a CR above your level.

UA helps but requires you to burn a buff round just to make sure you have no miss chance. Quickening it is out of the question (DC 73, i.e. not possible for you to make at a +45.)

[Grizzled Gryphon]

What does AotST stand for?

[Psyren]

What does AotST stand for?

Amulet of the Silver Tongue

[Grizzled Gryphon]

Amulet of the Silver TongueAh! Thanks! I was trying to guess, but when I got to "Agent of the Syphilitic Toe", I figured it was better to just ask.

[DR27]

Investing items and wealth should make you better at doing something rather than be required to keep up. This holds true for spells, maneuvers, and powers. For meldshaping and binding to a more limited extent as well, IIRC. It does not hold true for truenaming. Shadowcasting starts out incompetent but finally gets its numbers up over time.

So investing the effort that for a Wizard makes them definitely more effective, a Truenamer is instead staying in the same place.This is the problem with truenaming. If there is only one possible build in the multiverse that can possibly redeem the truenamer, then there is something wrong.

Bottom line: the tier list takes optimization floors and ceilings into account. The Truenamer has one of the lowest optimization floors in the game without a decent ceiling to redeem it. A new group of gamers who starts the game and tries to replace the Wizard with a Truenamer is going to be boned. Even if that Wizard that they are replacing was an Evoker who forbid conj/trans.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is the problem with truenaming. If there is only one possible build in the multiverse that can possibly redeem the truenamer, then there is something wrong.

This is far more true than the hyperbolic "doesn't function broke" line that most people seem to associate with the class. There is -very- little variance between truenamers. The same would be largely true of core only rogue with no PrC options though. The class is -completely- unsupported outside the book it premiered in with a single, easily missed exception in complete champion (paragnostic assembly membership netting a bonus to truenaming checks).


It gets harder to use your basic abilities as you level rather than easier, especially your buffs, at the most basic level. The laws governing truenaming, especially the law of sequence, are occasionally part of the problem, but overshadowed mostly by the way the base DCs scale.

It's not so much that it gets harder with that handful of items but that it yo-yos a bit. It gets a little harder, you get the next item, and it gets easier again.


Investing items and wealth should make you better at doing something rather than be required to keep up. This holds true for spells, maneuvers, and powers. For meldshaping and binding to a more limited extent as well, IIRC. It does not hold true for truenaming. Shadowcasting starts out incompetent but finally gets its numbers up over time.

So investing the effort that for a Wizard makes them definitely more effective, a Truenamer is instead staying in the same place.

By this metric only casters are competent. Every difficulty a character must bypass scales up as you level and virtually all of it scales faster or at the same rate as a character's means of bypassing those difficulties unless you get the necessary items to help or unless you're a caster and can simply go around it.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that the Truenamer is good. It's very much not. I'm just arguing that it's not unusably broken just because you have to put a bit of effort into it not being an utter failure.

[eggynack]

This is far more true than the hyperbolic "doesn't function broke" line that most people seem to associate with the class.
I think there's more reason than just the truespeak checks for that claim. Truenaming as a whole has to be the most functionally broken thing in the entire game, between the various rules issues and editing mistakes. Even were truespeaking checks not an issue, tiering the class would be still be a challenge because of that issue. They'd still fall into tier 4, which is pretty much what they do now, but it's weird. Truespeaker is a class that actually doesn't function to some extent.

[Darth Stabber]

If utterances were on par with spells or psionic powers we could argue for it being worth the massive amount off effort needed to make the checks, but having to spend so much time and effort in acquiring the exact set of items needed to reliably hit your DCs is compensated so poorly when you see what you actually get from thos checks. If you want to max a skill and win then just play a jumplomancer. I am going to argue that starting int of 15 (so max 20), max skill ranks, mw item, and skill focus should be 90% successful at lvl20, because this is the kind of optimization that wotc examples seem to employ. Given how skills work in the game it was a flawed concept from the beginning, there was no way for it not to be a mess. Either the checks would be too easy and you are a "super warlock" or the checks would get too hard too fast and you would be just a UMD user. It does get UMD which is kind of damning with faint praise, but UMD is nice.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think there's more reason than just the truespeak checks for that claim. Truenaming as a whole has to be the most functionally broken thing in the entire game, between the various rules issues and editing mistakes. Even were truespeaking checks not an issue, tiering the class would be still be a challenge because of that issue. They'd still fall into tier 4, which is pretty much what they do now, but it's weird. Truespeaker is a class that actually doesn't function to some extent.

If you eliminate that issue then all that's left is to measure the power and breadth of use for their abilities. When you do that the truenamer maps to about T4. There are some editing mistakes in the book too but the worst of them was cleared up by errata; the DC for lexicon of the evolving map is dc 25 +5 per level of the utterance. The others are all par for the course in WotC editing practices.

[chaos_redefined]

I've seen Zaq's list of all the spots that need errata. It includes the ability to get blindsight to an unspecified distance, the ability to overcome all kinds of concealment (aka The opponent is invisible, but I know he's in that square. So... I can shoot that square and hit him). Etc... These are just as bad as the LPM DC issue, but they don't come up as often for the same reason that the details of summoned celestial monkeys comes up less often than the details of SMI.

So, if we fix all the holes in the wording and fix the DCs, then it'll all be good, right? Well... no. After all that, you get to the utterances themselves. And they suck. An overall rundown of the utterances shows multiple which are worse versions of spells that normal casters got up to 10 levels ago (e.g. Seize Item is available at 19th level, and is trumped by Telekinesis in every way you care about). The unique utterances they get include, trading your actions with the enemies magic items, a couple of pathetic blasts (that make warlocks look impressive), a bonus to all skill checks, and, well... if you aren't impressed yet, this won't change any time soon.

Then... there's the law of sequence. Everyone else reads the laws and whinges about the law of resistance, but that's workable. The law of sequence means you need to have 2 flying utterances to fly for more than a minute at a time. Unless you like falling, of course. It means that you can only haste one party member at a time. (And while he is hasted, noone else can be).

The problems with truenaming start with the DCs. It definitely doesn't end there.

[Chronos]

You can't consider Universal Aptitude in calculating a truenamer's chance of success, because that depends on first being able to utter Universal Aptitude itself. And the truenamer gets worse with level in ways that mundanes don't: A 20th-level fighter might have difficulty with 20th-level monster AC, but if you put him up against the same encounter of four goblins that he fought at first level, everything he has is going to work excellently. Do the same with a truenamer, though, and he'll be worse than he was at first level, because so many of his abilities are buffs, which means that he has to beat his own DC, not the goblins'.

Oh, and Tippy, it's not just taking Psychic Reformation that's too much optimization. It's somehow spamming it every day without regard for the XP cost that's too much.

[Psyren]

A big problem with them are the laws, specifically the Law of Sequence. The LoR itself is fine - it's more the Utterance DC math in general that makes that law a pain - but the Law of Sequence really hurts them because it can lock you out of a given utterance entirely for almost a whole combat after just one use if you're not careful. Buff one ally with Seek the Sky for instance and you have to wait 5 rounds before you can buff someone else with it.

[Bonzai]

I have played a Truenamer from lvl 3 to 15th. If you don't have a DM who will work with you, then I wouldn't bother. At the very minimum, Item Familiar would need to be allowed before I would suggest it. The skill component of item familiar lets you keep pace with the DC changes at the cost of 3 extra skill points a level. The second biggest thing, is that the law of sequence sucks. If your DM is willing to home brew a feat or something that will allow you to buff the party at once, then True Namers become a solid addition to a party. Much like a bard.

My take would be a ritual that involves knowing the true name of each of your team mates. This ritual creates a true name for your party, and when you speak it all members of the party within 30ft of each other are affected by it. The DC of the utterance goes up by 2 for each target after the first, but counts as a single use of the utterance for the law of resistance and sequence.

True Namers are fantastic down time healers, and eventually handle combat healing. Especially if the DM rules that fast healing counts as natural healing. Then the healthful rest spell effectively doubles your healing rate.

Some other handy tricks are, a no save slow, a Dispel that can remove anything regardless of caster level, extra attacks for your party melee, heal ability damage as a standard (for those times when a restoration spell would take to long), grounding flying creatures for a whole combat, reconstruct destroyed magic items (spell tiles anyone?), giving people permanent ghost touch (yeah, broken), an improved stone tell that can break most games, and of course the free gate. Plus they can quicken every turn.

They aren't useless, and can contribute to a party. However, compare them to what a wizard can do, and they fall far short even when heavily optimized.

[JaronK]

Most people have it right. Most classes are relatively stable to optimize... a low optimized Barbarian compared to a low optimized Wizard is about on the same sale as a highly optimized Barbarian compared to a highly optimized Wizard... the Wizard gains exponential power of course, but their relative positions don't change, they just have their differences exacerbated.

But that's not true for the Truenamer. A Truenamer that's in a low op game (perhaps one with randomized loot and a player who doesn't know all the options) is dramatically weaker even than Monks or Fighters that just go "oh, that feat looks neat, I'll take that" as their optimization. He's basically not functional at all due to not being able to hit his skill checks. He's like a Commoner, really, except the Commoner can generate random chickens for fun and profit. But then a higher optimized Truenamer can, well, function. And suddenly he works kinda like a Warlock, and shoots right past the T5 classes (he's still no powerhouse, but there's stuff he can do).

So putting him in the Tiers would have conveyed false information, which is why I didn't do it.

The reason a lot of psionic classes are not in there is I just don't have enough experience to place them. I never got into those classes.

JaronK

[Emperor Tippy]

Part of the problem with the Truenamer is that it had so much potential but fell spectacularly flat.

What it should have been was make a skill check to divine the transitory true name of a creature (you can keep track of an additional true name of this type at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18) as a standard action and it lasts until the creature is more than trunemaner level x 20 feet away from you for at least truenamer level minutes. If you know a creatures transitory true name then you can spend actions to do all kinds of things.

Pick full round, standard, move, swift, or immediate action and then make a Truename skill check against a DC of 10+2(CR or ECL), add +5 to the DC for each step down the action ladder (so a CR 5 opponent would have DC's of 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40). If you make the check then you can apply a bonus or penalty equal to truenamer level to any number in relation to a character until the end of your next turn. AB, AC, SR, movement speed, ability score, skill check, caster level, pretty much anything.

If a Truenamer knows your actual, permanent, true name (which is difficult to find and is basically what ToM calls a truename) then the above is the least of what he can do. In addition to being able to do all of the above without any regard to LoS, LoE, or distance between the Truenamer and his target he can do lots of other things. Make use of the targets senses, move himself to the targets location (or the target to his location or the location of another who's truename he knows), and a whole host of other spell like things.

Pick one such thing from the list at every level and to use it requires a Truespeech check.

---
That's a Truenamer that would be unique, fun to play, and fun to have in the party. A real, dedicated, buffer and debuffer.

Instead we got the POS that is the official Truenamer.

[Dr. Azkur]

We should round up to say that the class wasn't finished, I can say completely assured that this class got no correction or edition. They completely forwent it.

EDIT: And we can only wonder about how the designer went about his job. Do you guys think it had any playtesting?

[Chronos]

I think what happened is that the designers looked at things like the Jumplomancer, got scared of how easy it is to optimize skill checks, and overcompensated. What they overlooked, though, is that the vast majority of skill check optimizations don't work on True Speech, since it was added into the system late, and most skill boosters work on one specific skill. So True Speech has no spell like Glibness or Jump, no synergy bonuses, no masterwork tools, no racial bonuses aside from the handful of monsters in ToM, no assorted odd feats that give +2 to it other than Skill Focus, and so on. It's even based on the hardest-to-boost ability score. All it has is the very few options that let you boost the skill of your choice or all skills, like Guidance of the Avatar or Item Familiar, which aren't even used in the Jumplomancer and the like (seriously, when was the last time you ever saw Item Familiar recommended for anyone but a truenamer?).

[Psyren]

Part of the problem with the Truenamer is that it had so much potential but fell spectacularly flat.

What it should have been was make a skill check to divine the transitory true name of a creature (you can keep track of an additional true name of this type at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18) as a standard action and it lasts until the creature is more than trunemaner level x 20 feet away from you for at least truenamer level minutes. If you know a creatures transitory true name then you can spend actions to do all kinds of things.

Pick full round, standard, move, swift, or immediate action and then make a Truename skill check against a DC of 10+2(CR or ECL), add +5 to the DC for each step down the action ladder (so a CR 5 opponent would have DC's of 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40). If you make the check then you can apply a bonus or penalty equal to truenamer level to any number in relation to a character until the end of your next turn. AB, AC, SR, movement speed, ability score, skill check, caster level, pretty much anything.

Honestly, I prefer the "True Referential" from the official system (utterances are actually slightly less specific identifiers like "that orc charging me right now" or "my elf ally standing to my right with bow drawn.") In other words, a specific identifier from a spatial/temporal standpoint, but still one that doesn't need a ton of research to uncover. The concept is fine, they just messed up the math.

A skill check to identify followed by messing with their rolls is to me more limited. I would rather have what we actually got, i.e. a collection of short-duration SLAs. ("Hey universe, that guy can actually fly!" Hey universe, did you know my friend isn't really wounded?" "Hey universe, my sword is keen and on fire" etc.) Which I guess is why I like Kyeudo's fix so much.

[Emperor Tippy]

(seriously, when was the last time you ever saw Item Familiar recommended for anyone but a truenamer?).
When was the last time you ever saw an Item Familiar allowed for anyone but a Truenamer?

[Coidzor]

It's not so much that it gets harder with that handful of items but that it yo-yos a bit. It gets a little harder, you get the next item, and it gets easier again.

Even in that case, such is a bug, not a feature. :smalltongue:


By this metric only casters are competent.

Well, yeah. :smallconfused:


Every difficulty a character must bypass scales up as you level and virtually all of it scales faster or at the same rate as a character's means of bypassing those difficulties unless you get the necessary items to help or unless you're a caster and can simply go around it.

Indeed, but things like Armor Class, the CR system are acknowledged to be broken by those in the know, though it rarely comes up all that often anymore.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that the Truenamer is good. It's very much not. I'm just arguing that it's not unusably broken just because you have to put a bit of effort into it not being an utter failure.

I suppose. I like to think of it as a barrier to discourage people from playing the non-fixed versions without really knowing what they're on about.

[Person_Man]

For what it's worth, Truenamer also ranks very poorly in my Niche Ranking system. The only things they're moderately good at compared to other classes is Curiosities (ie, rarely useful stuff), Healing, and Sage. Everything else they can sorta kinda maybe do with a certain level of optimization, or not do at all. From a mechanical point of view, there's honestly not any positive reason to play one.



When was the last time you ever saw an Item Familiar allowed for anyone but a Truenamer?

I once allowed it for a player who wanted to be really good at Jump. He didn't want flight, and this wasn't a Tome of Battle or Exemplar optimization thing. He honestly just wanted to be able to Jump really high. So I let him have an Item Familiar and a custom set of "gravity boots" which gave him a +20 enhancement to Jump.

But your overall point is well taken and agreed with.

[DR27]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that the Truenamer is good. It's very much not. I'm just arguing that it's not unusably broken just because you have to put a bit of effort into it not being an utter failure.And we are arguing that if you have to put that effort into not being an utter failure, then the class is broken in the "functioning as the designer intended" category. If the designer came forward and said he wanted you to fail most of the time unless you invest in multiple esoteric skill-boosting methods, then I'd say he made the class he wanted. Instead, I think that nobody ever did the math or tried it out before publication.

Which is weird, because Tome of Battle was done very well, and was tested. And published around the same time in 3.5's life cycle. What happened?

[Psyren]

And we are arguing that if you have to put that effort into not being an utter failure, then the class is broken in the "functioning as the designer intended" category. If the designer came forward and said he wanted you to fail most of the time unless you invest in multiple esoteric skill-boosting methods, then I'd say he made the class he wanted. Instead, I think that nobody ever did the math or tried it out before publication.

Which is weird, because Tome of Battle was done very well, and was tested. And published around the same time in 3.5's life cycle. What happened?

I think they put so much time and energy into playtesting the Binder that they ran out of time on the other two. The Shadowcaster is in dire need of playtesting too. (Though I would wager it at least got a little more than the Truenamer did.)

And throughout 3.5's run, WotC had a massive public playtesting allergy going on as well.

[Buufreak]

Thank you all so much for the feedback, I see now that it likely isn't going to be worth the time to play, considering most of my party is fairly meta. And also thank you for recommending the possible fixes, fingers crossed on any DM accepting them!

[Chronos]

The bit I don't understand about the Shadowcaster is not its power level: Sure, it's less than most casters, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. What I don't understand is how rigid it is: Of all of the magical classes in the game, it's got the least flexibility both in how it chooses its powers, and how it can use them each day. My mental image of a spellcaster drawing from the power of shadows is much more fluid and adaptable.

[Gemini476]

You know what would have been fun?
For The Lexicon of the Perfected Map to change Planar Traits within a short radius, kind of like Antimagic Field.

So you could make all of your Utterances Permanent while they're in the Field, be an awesome buffer (until the BBEG mage walks into your Timeless Hyperbuff Field), generally play around with stuff as if you had a Planar Bubble...

But no, instead we get four LPM Utterances over twenty levels. Sure, Conjunctive Gate is nice and all, but four?

I really feel like the Truenamer would have been more interesting if the whole LEM/LCT/LPM split had been more like Spell Schools rather than... well, whatever it's like now. Or more modular, like PF's Words of Power. That could have been interesting.

I love you so much Truenamer. Why won't you love me back?

Eh, at least I know what kind of PrC I'll be working on, now...

Also, how on earth is crafting Truename items supposed to work? I get that you can make "potions" and such that are limited by the Truespeak Check you made while crafting it, but Truenamers don't even get a Caster Level to qualify for Brew Potion and such.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And we are arguing that if you have to put that effort into not being an utter failure, then the class is broken in the "functioning as the designer intended" category. If the designer came forward and said he wanted you to fail most of the time unless you invest in multiple esoteric skill-boosting methods, then I'd say he made the class he wanted. Instead, I think that nobody ever did the math or tried it out before publication.

No character of any class will be functional at -zero- optimization. If you don't put in any effort at all toward building your character then it will be an utter failure regardless of class. It doesn't make any sense to single out any particular class for this universal failing. The truenamer gets a lot harsher representation than it deserves.

The optimization necessary to make a truenamer functional is on the same level as the optimization to make anything without spell casting functional.

I strongly suspect that it gets treated like an unwanted bastard child because it looks like a caster and can't break reality with minimal effort.


Also, how on earth is crafting Truename items supposed to work? I get that you can make "potions" and such that are limited by the Truespeak Check you made while crafting it, but Truenamers don't even get a Caster Level to qualify for Brew Potion and such.

Truenamer's caster level is equal to his class level. It's tucked away on page 232 in the second paragraph under speaking an utterance.

[Chronos]

No character of any class will be functional at -zero- optimization. If you don't put in any effort at all toward building your character then it will be an utter failure regardless of class. It doesn't make any sense to single out any particular class for this universal failing. The truenamer gets a lot harsher representation than it deserves.
The level of optimization needed for a fighter to be functional is "Pick up sword, hit people with it". The level of optimization needed for a druid to be functional is "have an animal companion". I really can't see any level of optimization that's less than those. Yeah, yeah, the fighter won't work particularly well at that level of optimization, but he can still at least do something.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The level of optimization needed for a fighter to be functional is "Pick up sword, hit people with it". The level of optimization needed for a druid to be functional is "have an animal companion". I really can't see any level of optimization that's less than those. Yeah, yeah, the fighter won't work particularly well at that level of optimization, but he can still at least do something.

That fighter will, at mid levels, have no means of reaching flying creatures, no means of attacking incorporeal creatures at all, and less than even odds of hitting what little it actually can hit while doing minimal damage. He will be torn apart in short order after about level 5 or so.

The druid is screwed if his wisdom isn't up to snuff and his animal companion rapidly falls behind even a monk if there's no buffing support from his druid buddy. He's doomed at about the same point.

Putting max ranks in truenaming and doing nothing else to improve its sole, native means of meaningfully interacting with challenges will leave a truenamer no more screwed and screwed no sooner than either of those.

[Gemini476]

Putting max ranks in truenaming and doing nothing else to improve its sole, native means of meaningfully interacting with challenges will leave a truenamer no more screwed and screwed no sooner than either of those.
Here's a Human Truenamer with no feats, no items, maximum int possible from Elite Array (15, +1 every four levels), and max ranks.

CR|DC|TS Bonus|%
1|17|+6|50
2|19|+7|45
3|21|+8|40
4|23|+10|40
5|25|+11|35
6|27|+12|30
7|29|+13|25
8|31|+14|20
9|33|+15|15
10|35|+16|10
11|37|+17|5
12|39|+19|5
13|41|+20|0
14|43|+21|-5
15|45|+22|-10
16|47|+23|-15
17|49|+24|-20
18|51|+25|-25
19|53|+26|-30
20|55|+28|-30
Each point of Truespeaking bonus gives an additional +5%, so Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue is +50%, an Item Familiar is +115% (eventually), etc.

Oh, and for buffing himself he gets +10% chance. So that's a thing.

[Melcar]

level 19; target DC 53

int starting 16, now 20

+5 headband of intellect

amulet of the silver tongue +10

pale green ioun stone

luckstone

skill focus

22 ranks




22 +3 SF + 8 INT + 10 AST + 1 Luck +1 Ioun = 45. Success on 8 or higher; 65% success.



All core except for the amulet, nothing even a little questionable, less than maximum possible intelligence, and no consideration for any buffs derived from spells (UMD as one of few class skills means a truenamer -will- have UMD) or even just universal aptitude.

Just increasing the intelligence by using a gray elf that starts at 20 and picks up a tome of clear thought nets another +4 to the modifier and gets the truenamer to an 85% success rate before buffs.

This is -not- high op.

You mean, Gold/Sun elf...

[DR27]

That fighter will, at mid levels, have no means of reaching flying creatures, no means of attacking incorporeal creatures at all, and less than even odds of hitting what little it actually can hit while doing minimal damage. He will be torn apart in short order after about level 5 or so.

The druid is screwed if his wisdom isn't up to snuff and his animal companion rapidly falls behind even a monk if there's no buffing support from his druid buddy. He's doomed at about the same point.

Putting max ranks in truenaming and doing nothing else to improve its sole, native means of meaningfully interacting with challenges will leave a truenamer no more screwed and screwed no sooner than either of those.You see, if a brand new player read the class description for the fighter, he would roll up a character, put his two highest stats into str/con, grab some cool-looking armor, and be somewhere in line with other low-op players. They won't be able to live in tippyverse, but will do fine in those newbie groups that fight animals and magical beasts. It does what it says on the tin - swings a sword at baddies.

Druid you had to screw up specifically, as long as they read the PHB entry for guidance and realized "I need some wisdom to cast spells" - they'll be ok.

The truenamer? If a new player saw the class and tried to play it as the description says, they'd be boned even in a low-op group. It doesn't do what it says on the tin - even with effort, you miss the DC's pretty often. With weapon focus fighter effort? You can't make the DC's half the time just to start, which is annoying to say the least.

That's not to say that hilariously low optimization floors mean a thing is unsalvageable, just that the thing in question clearly isn't working as intended. I think part of the problem is that you see it as non-broken that the Truenamer requires top-level optimization in order to work. And a certain amount of DM intervention. And a full understanding of why those things need to happen. It's a lot to ask of people who don't spend their time thinking about game balance issues or how to break the game.

[strider24seven]

No character of any class will be functional at -zero- optimization. If you don't put in any effort at all toward building your character then it will be an utter failure regardless of class. It doesn't make any sense to single out any particular class for this universal failing. The truenamer gets a lot harsher representation than it deserves.
.

Warblades and Crusaders function fairly well with little to no optimization. Just pick up a weapon, roll your maneuvers randomly, and swing away.

Having actually played a Truenamer from 1st to 12th level I don't think they are represented harshly enough. With an Item Familiar and an Amulet of the Silver Tongue I was the equivalent of a Sorcerer with a Chain Shirt - I still had pseudo-ASF at most levels vs appropriate enemies.

Keep in mind - that DC is to cast your "spells", which are... less than stellar even when they do work. Most of your utterances are watered down, short duration buffs or debuffs - of which you cannot have any duplicates active at any time and cannot dismiss.

The only unique part of your casting system that is any good at all is the fact that you can sometimes get off a surprise Quicken for free against weaker enemies, since failing your skill check costs you nothing other than a wasted action. And then of course at 20th level you suddenly get Gate almost at-will. Yeah...

My character felt very weak at all levels, even compared to the rest of my party. And I was in a party with a sword and board fighter, a skill-focused rogue, and a healer. My best "class feature" at lower levels was often my access to a crossbow.

Personally I place an optimized Truenamer that attempts to use his class features in Tier 5.

[Gemini476]

Having actually played a Truenamer from 1st to 12th level I don't think they are represented harshly enough. With an Item Familiar and an Amulet of the Silver Tongue I was the equivalent of a Sorcerer with a Chain Shirt - I still had pseudo-ASF at most levels vs appropriate enemies.


Wait, what? A Greater AotST gives you +10, and a Item Familiar gives your +3+level, so that means the DC for an equal CR is 2. Or 0, if you target yourself.
If you have Skill Focus - and why not? - it's -1, 18 Int means -5.

So if the starting DC is -5, you can Quicken an utterance the first time you speak it 30% of the time, you can speak an utterance three times before you need to roll, and you can speak an utterance against CR+2 without much trouble.

Add in a Masterwork Tool for +2, and Illumian for another +2, and you just lengthened your endurance considerably.


Of course, with that level of optimization (optimal race+optimal ability score+non-optional feat at 1st level+Item Familiar+non-optional magic item) you're in the same ballpark of optimization as some Uberchargers and other more broken(ish) builds.

And that's why the Truenamer isn't on the tier list.

Also: as for that low-op Truenamer? How many new low-op DMs would actually just give a player a 2,500gp-10,000gp magic item? Or even just buy it?
Low Op Truenamer is maybe going to have Skill Focus, but he might also have rolled stats, Elite Array, and have no +Int race (PHB doesn't, MM has Grey Elves)
Imagine a Truenamer with 15int and Skill Focus.
+9 at first level vs. DC17, and it just gets worse from there on.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You see, if a brand new player read the class description for the fighter, he would roll up a character, put his two highest stats into str/con, grab some cool-looking armor, and be somewhere in line with other low-op players. They won't be able to live in tippyverse, but will do fine in those newbie groups that fight animals and magical beasts. It does what it says on the tin - swings a sword at baddies.

Druid you had to screw up specifically, as long as they read the PHB entry for guidance and realized "I need some wisdom to cast spells" - they'll be ok.

The truenamer? If a new player saw the class and tried to play it as the description says, they'd be boned even in a low-op group. It doesn't do what it says on the tin - even with effort, you miss the DC's pretty often. With weapon focus fighter effort? You can't make the DC's half the time just to start, which is annoying to say the least.

That's not to say that hilariously low optimization floors mean a thing is unsalvageable, just that the thing in question clearly isn't working as intended. I think part of the problem is that you see it as non-broken that the Truenamer requires top-level optimization in order to work. And a certain amount of DM intervention. And a full understanding of why those things need to happen. It's a lot to ask of people who don't spend their time thinking about game balance issues or how to break the game.

See that's exactly the attitude I'm talking about.

If that fighter doesn't get level appropriate gear as his level increases the game will continue to get harder and harder until he's being squashed by virtually anything the CR system says he should be able to handle. The same is true if he doesn't pick feats that are appropriate to his role.

The truenamer is judged more harshly than any other class because this universal failing it shares with -all- classes. I imagine it has something to do with the fact that the whole thing hinges on that one skill check while most other classes have a variety of ways to apply their primary schtick.


Warblades and Crusaders function fairly well with little to no optimization. Just pick up a weapon, roll your maneuvers randomly, and swing away.

Nope.

The martial adepts still have to -hit- for the lion's share of their offensive maneuvers to matter. The handful of AoE's available are almost exclusively swordsage maneuvers with one exception for the warblade.

Beyond that, they still need level appropriate arms and armor if they're to avoid being destroyed by their foes the same as any other martial character.


Having actually played a Truenamer from 1st to 12th level I don't think they are represented harshly enough. With an Item Familiar and an Amulet of the Silver Tongue I was the equivalent of a Sorcerer with a Chain Shirt - I still had pseudo-ASF at most levels vs appropriate enemies.

Keep in mind - that DC is to cast your "spells", which are... less than stellar even when they do work. Most of your utterances are watered down, short duration buffs or debuffs - of which you cannot have any duplicates active at any time and cannot dismiss.

The only unique part of your casting system that is any good at all is the fact that you can sometimes get off a surprise Quicken for free against weaker enemies, since failing your skill check costs you nothing other than a wasted action. And then of course at 20th level you suddenly get Gate almost at-will. Yeah...

My character felt very weak at all levels, even compared to the rest of my party. And I was in a party with a sword and board fighter, a skill-focused rogue, and a healer. My best "class feature" at lower levels was often my access to a crossbow.

Personally I place an optimized Truenamer that attempts to use his class features in Tier 5.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much, especially when it's an optimization failure.

Seriously, how did you not have guaranteed success with an item familiar?

[Selniis]

---
That's a Truenamer that would be unique, fun to play, and fun to have in the party. A real, dedicated, buffer and debuffer.

Instead we got the POS that is the official Truenamer.

I always thought they should have more synergy with the Words of Creation and Darkspeech rules, the 'Power Word' spells, the Dracolexi prestige class, and something really similar to the 'geometer' arcane prestige class. Like the idea had been tentatively attempted previously but never fully realized, and the truenaming rules were just another half-hearted attempt. There is enough material to cobble together a workable, balanced, and flavorful class. But nobody has ever really put the effort in.

[Gemini476]

I always thought they should have more synergy with the Words of Creation and Darkspeech rules, the 'Power Word' spells, the Dracolexi prestige class, and something really similar to the 'geometer' arcane prestige class. Like the idea had been tentatively attempted previously but never fully realized, and the truenaming rules were just another half-hearted attempt. There is enough material to cobble together a workable, balanced, and flavorful class. But nobody has ever really put the effort in.

I find it sad that the fluff for Truenaming mentions how the Power Word spells are based on some bastardized version of Truenaming, and yet the Truenamer has no way to utilize those effects himself.

Maybe I should just homebrew a Prestige Class that adds them as high-level Utterances or something, I dunno.

Actually, didn't one of the Truenamer fixes use the "works only on people under X HP" mechanic?

[Emperor Tippy]

For one, all of the Utterances should have been SR: No, No Save, No attack roll, utterances.

The only defense being an opposed Truename check or silencing the Truenamer.

That would have fit the fluff a who hell of a lot better and would have allowed the truenamer to make use of weaker than otherwise acceptable effects.

Just the above change along with adding "Truenamers get a bonus equal to Truenamer class level on all Truename skill checks" actually makes the Truenamer decentish. It's really about the simplest fix for it.

[Eldariel]

Truenaming would be far more compelling if it didn't require the DM to use CR. Tying class's core check difficulty to a random number printed in a random book doesn't really make an awful lot of sense.

[Kelb_Panthera]

For one, all of the Utterances should have been SR: No, No Save, No attack roll, utterances.

The only defense being an opposed Truename check or silencing the Truenamer.

That would have fit the fluff a who hell of a lot better and would have allowed the truenamer to make use of weaker than otherwise acceptable effects.

Just the above change along with adding "Truenamers get a bonus equal to Truenamer class level on all Truename skill checks" actually makes the Truenamer decentish. It's really about the simplest fix for it.

Silence effects don't actually stop truenames. Pg 233 in big bold letters, "The universe hears just fine." Silence effects only produce an extra 20% failure chance. You actually have to stop the truenamer from speaking.

Bypassing spell resistance is an extra 5 on the DC.

I'm also -reasonably- sure that none of the utterances involve an attack roll but I could be wrong about that one.

[Emperor Tippy]

Silence effects don't actually stop truenames. Pg 233 in big bold letters, "The universe hears just fine." Silence effects only produce an extra 20% failure chance. You actually have to stop the truenamer from speaking.
Shows how often I make use of the official Truenamer in any capacity.


Bypassing spell resistance is an extra 5 on the DC.
On a check that you are already needing to optimize as much as possible to stand a decent chance of doing anything to peer competitors.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Shows how often I make use of the official Truenamer in any capacity.

Actually, I kinda figured you already knew these things but onlookers to this conversation might not. Lurkers need good information if they're to make informed decisions after all.



On a check that you are already needing to optimize as much as possible to stand a decent chance of doing anything to peer competitors.

You, of all people, know better than that. Serious optimization aimed at skill checks gets bonuses in triple digits.

At the bare minimums I posited earlier this is a non-trivial increase but even a bit of effort can easily make it a non-issue.

Just an item familiar (which I don't condone using, even for this) makes hitting the DC's automatic for several uses of all of the Truenamer's utterances each day even with this 5 point increase.

A competence bonus item, one of the simplest bonuses to derive from the item creation tables, will also trivialize hitting the DC's.

Any number of spells derived from various spell trigger and spell completion items can easily overwhelm the gap left by the minimum effort I put forward earlier and truenamers get at least 6 skill points per level, unless the dice positively hate the player, with only 3 real skills one of which is UMD, the other two being concentration and truespeak. [The rest of the skill list is knowledge (all), craft, and perform].

[Bogardan_Mage]

Isn't the biggest problem with Truenamer that "times two"? Such a thing is totally unsuitable to d20. Shouldn't the first change in a "fixed" Truenamer be replacing it with something like HD+10 or something?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Isn't the biggest problem with Truenamer that "times two"? Such a thing is totally unsuitable to d20. Shouldn't the first change in a "fixed" Truenamer be replacing it with something like HD+10 or something?

No. Not at all.

The biggest problem with the truenamer is that his abilities, when they do work, are largely underwhelming. They're unimpressive in themselves and mostly mimic things that real casters were doing levels before to better effect.

The "times two" thing isn't that hard to trivialize and isn't insurmountable even with relatively little effort.

[strider24seven]

Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much, especially when it's an optimization failure.

Seriously, how did you not have guaranteed success with an item familiar?

Level 9 - when Truenamers become remotely useful because of Quicken Utterenace

DC range is 28-37 for CR 7-11.

I couldn't afford a Greater Amulet at level 3 - so I had to settle for the normal amulet I found (no access to Magic Marts for levels 3-9, we had to deal with what we found and what various shops had to offer). Masterwork Tools for Truespeak were not allowed, Paragnostic Assembly likewise. No spellcasters other than the healer, so no skill-boosting spells. Custom magic items were unavailable (so no +competence items).

12 Ranks + 5 INT + 12 Item Familiar + 5 Amulet of the Silver Tongue +3 Skill Focus = +35 to the check, with an additional +5 that can be mustered through utterances.


First utterance or two of each type is guaranteed success. After that it's a cumulative -10% failure chance, with a 10% boost to cast on myself. Since we were routinely facing 4-6 combats per day and 1-4 other encounters per day that required utterance use, I ended up with a ~20% failure chance (more for my main utterances) toward the last few encounters of the day.

So, yeah. If you live in Magical Tea Party World, where you have access to every +skill item, spell, feat, etc, then you can make your utterances work with a decent chance of success through every encounter. And then you have to deal with horrendous durations for (most of) your utterances, even with Extend Utterance (which makes the checks harder). And then you have to deal with less than stellar effects, often quite subpar to the equivalent spells that are appropriate to your level. You will perform fairly poorly in many areas, except for niche areas like Knowledge, where you will perform adequately. You will have trouble shining in most encounters unless your DM tailors the encounter (and possibly his entire campaign) to your needs... which is the definition of Tier 5.

However, I suggest you actually play a Truenamer in a real game, with real people, where not every optimal choice is available at the most opportune time.

Even with good optimization in your game, you will end up in solid Tier 5 if you use your class abilities, and don't take the optimal route of Magical Training, Eldritch Corruption, and Extra Slot. Until you hit level 20 and can use your XP-free Gates, at which point you become Tier 2.

For anyone that cares:
The game in which I played my Truenamer was limited to Tier 5 or below, except the new guy, who was allowed a Rogue. The game was supposed to feature a party of "Hilariously Incompetent Adventurers," and we fit the our title perfectly. The moderately optimized Truenamer fit right in at low Tier 5, alongside the Sword and Board Fighter and the Healer.

[Kelb_Panthera]

-snip-

And that's why anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much.

The DM restricting the availability of magic items is -not- part of the system and isn't the system's fault. A greater amulet of the silver tongue is a 10,000gp item and should be available in -any- small city. As should be wands and scrolls for most spells.

A wand of glibness, a week, and access to the craft wondrous item feat will allow a truenamer to upgrade his own amulet of the silver tongue from lesser to greater. The wand and the feat will allow him to make the thing in the first place with only 3 days and the wand is useful in its own right.

[Gemini476]

You, of all people, know better than that. Serious optimization aimed at skill checks gets bonuses in triple digits.

For some quick optimization of semi-permanent boosts (i.e., no temporary spells):
+4(18 Int) +5(Tome & levels) +1(Old)
+2(Illumian)
+23(Ranks) +23(Item Familiar)
+3(Skill Focus)
+2(Masterwork Item) +10(Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue)
+10(Paragnostic Assembly)

Total: 83

Spells etc. that help, going by memory:
+5(Universal Aptitude), 5 rounds
...Anything that gives bonuses to unspecific int-based skill checks. I don't remember many.

Polymorph forms:
+8(Polymorph(Word Archon))
+10(Polymorph(Logokron Devil))
+Yes(Polymorph(Garbler))
+4(Polymorph(Loquasphinx))
+9(Polymorph(Painspeaker))

To be honest, I kind of expected high-or-medium level Truenamers to be more of a thing in the Tippyverse. Rebuild Item with Spell Tiles or Skull Talismans is crazy good, and sneaking in a single 10th level Truenamer is enough to dispel the highest CL spell affecting him or his pet bunny - such as a NI CL Forbiddance, for instance. Of course, a way to combat that is to have your own cabal of Truenamers who also use Spell Rebirth, except this time to undispel it.
Then again, 90% of Truenamers being Illumians working for the Paragnostic Assembly has weird fluff implications. Extremely weird ones.
But yeah, I guess I understand why Tippy doesn't know that much about Truenamers. Even at highest-op they end up being worse than most other equally optimized characters. Not to mention that there's pretty much only one build for a straight Truenamer, that being the smart guy and/or cheerleader.

[eggynack]

And that's why anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much.

The DM restricting the availability of magic items is -not- part of the system and isn't the system's fault. A greater amulet of the silver tongue is a 10,000gp item and should be available in -any- small city. As should be wands and scrolls for most spells.

A wand of glibness, a week, and access to the craft wondrous item feat will allow a truenamer to upgrade his own amulet of the silver tongue from lesser to greater. The wand and the feat will allow him to make the thing in the first place with only 3 days and the wand is useful in its own right.
I generally agree with you, but strider has something of a point. Truenamer is a class that is completely dependent on a couple of very specific things, to an extent that is not true of just about any other class. A melee fellow would love a greatsword, or perhaps a guisarme, but fighters can perform reasonably well at face stabbing with sub-par equipment, and more importantly, they can expect to find fighter stuff whenever they face a melee character. The same can be said of most classes, as they generally prefer one set of optimal items, but can substitute those with sub-optimal ones as the need arises. The truenamer needs these items, and these feats, to the exclusion of all others, and that makes them fragile.

Still, I don't think it's fair to characterize a game with a magic mart as a magical tea party land (though you may be able to buy some magic tea party equipment), particularly because those are just the expectations of the game. I think that utterances can be hit with a greater ease than they're given credit for, even if you need to get some pretty specific stuff to do it. If Zaq's experiences have told us two things, they're that truenamers can hit their checks with enough reliability to often hit quicken checks, and that truenamers kinda suck anyway.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is from memory so likely won't be complete

20th level.

Illumian

Starting int 18 +5 for level ups +5 for tome of clear thought +6 for headband of intellect +2 old makes 36. +13

Enhanced power sigils +3
skill focus +3
pale green ioun stone +1
luckstone +1
23 ranks
item familiar +23
greater amulet +10
paragnostic assembly membership +10

[13 +3 +3 +1 +1 +23 +23 +10 +10 = 87]

+87 permanent.

polymorph to logokron devil via wand of polymorph +10, -3 from loss of sigils.
guidance of the avatar via wand +20
universal aptitude +5

[10 -3 +20 +5 = 32]

+119 for the first utterance of the encounter and +99 for the next few rounds. +94 if universal aptitude lapses.

For the first few rounds of combat you're -guaranteed- to get triple digits.

The 2 points lost from choosing some other race with a +int or 3 for any race without a racial int mod is trivial. Even passing on membership in the paragnostic assembly leaves you with a very reliable +77 (74 for most races) vs DC 55. You literally can't fail to quicken a power against an equal CR foe in the day's first encounter. Even the dc 63 of a foe four CR higher than you can be hit -at least- five times before rolling becomes necessary.

This is an optimized skill check.

[Gemini476]

polymorph to logokron devil via wand of polymorph +10, -3 from loss of sigils.

You do know that Polymorphing into a Garbler will make you, and I quote,
Skills: A garbler never needs to make a Truespeak check for its utterances.

Then again, I suppose that there are some other benefits to being a Logokron Devil. Like hands, or being an Outsider, or a flight speed, or not being a mutant Gibbering Mouther.
I'm not entirely sure that that beats out free metatruespeak, skipping the entire skill check mechanic, and blindsense, but then again even an optimized Truenamer is basically just a Warlock.


...Wait a minute, you can't Polymorph into a Logokron Devil. It's a 15HD Outsider, so you need to use Polymorph Any Object. Or get a Wizard to cast it on you twice, I guess, since it's way too high level for you to get it on a wand.

A wand of Polymorph with CL 11 costs 33000gp, however.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You do know that Polymorphing into a Garbler will make you, and I quote,

Then again, I suppose that there are some other benefits to being a Logokron Devil. Like hands, or being an Outsider, or a flight speed, or not being a mutant Gibbering Mouther.
I'm not entirely sure that that beats out free metatruespeak, skipping the entire skill check mechanic, and blindsense, but then again even an optimized Truenamer is basically just a Warlock.


...Wait a minute, you can't Polymorph into a Logokron Devil. It's a 15HD Outsider, so you need to use Polymorph Any Object. Or get a Wizard to cast it on you twice, I guess, since it's way too high level for you to get it on a wand.

A wand of Polymorph with CL 11 costs 33000gp, however.

I'm not sure that the garbler's ability applies. It's not actually a bonus per se and polymorph inherits the ability to grant racial skill -bonuses- from alter self. It's definitely the better choice if it works.

You might be able to get away with giving an illumian the otherworldly feat (PGtF) to make it a native outsider. Alternately you could swap illumian for tiefling for only a few points off of the total.

Honestly I'd say I didn't do terribly for going mostly from memory.

[Gemini476]

I'm not sure that the garbler's ability applies. It's not actually a bonus per se and polymorph inherits the ability to grant racial skill -bonuses- from alter self. It's definitely the better choice if it works.

You might be able to get away with giving an illumian the otherworldly feat (PGtF) to make it a native outsider. Alternately you could swap illumian for tiefling for only a few points off of the total.

Honestly I'd say I didn't do terribly for going mostly from memory.
If you have an Outsider Truenamer then the LD is just an Alter Self away, so yeah.
No wait, on a closer examination Alter Self has a limit of 5HD.
So yeah, if you can grab Otherworldly then go for it.

However, Otherworldly has this little line:


Prerequisite: Deep Imaskari (Underdark [Deep Imaskar]), elf (Evermeet, Sildëyuir), or spirit folk (Ashane),
So I'd recommend just going for an Outsider with as little LA as possible. Isn't there a way to get it with 0 LA, like an online Template Class? I think I recall that being a thing.

Or you could do some weird stuff where you actually find a use for Incarnation of Angels. I knew there had to be some use for it.
...Does the Polymorph stop once the time limit for Incarnation of Angels runs out and you lose your Fiendish template?


Other than that, I feel like the garbler's ability probably counts as a bonus? It isn't explicitly called a bonus, but...
Oh wait, this is what the PHB Glossary has to say on the matter.

bonus:A positive modifier
to a die roll. In most cases,
multiple bonuses from the same
source or of the same type in
effect on the same character or
object do not stack; only the highest
bonus of that type applies. Bonuses
that don’t have a specific type always
stack with all bonuses.
Alter Self:

You acquire the physical qualities of the
new form while retaining your own mind.
Physical qualities include natural size,
mundane movement capabilities (such as
burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming,
and flight with wings, to a maximum speed
of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for
nonflying movement), natural armor
bonus, natural weapons (such as claws,
bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial
bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities
(presence or absence of wings, number
of extremities, and so forth). A body with
extra limbs does not allow you to make
more attacks (or more advantageous two
weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary special
attacks or special qualities not noted
above under physical qualities, such as
darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense,
blindsight, fast healing, regeneration,
scent, and so forth.
Polymorph doesn't override the limit on Ex Special Qualities, so you don't get Blindsight. Which is a real shame, since Garblers are blind. At least you can fix that with an Utterance.
And if you don't get the text in their Skills: paragraph then they totally aren't worth it. A shame, really. Although I do wonder how that works with things like Aranea, for instance, that always can take 10 on Climb checks. Do you not gain that? Does it not count as a bonus?

Aw well, a man can dream.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The ability to take 10 on climb checks in the entry for araneas and the like is a function of having a racial climb speed. It's simply reiterated there for convenience.

I'm aware of otherworldly's prerequisites but the illumians don't exist natively in FR so regions have to be assigned to them. They're not so dissimilar from the other three. I admit that it's not RAW legal though.

Edit: does anyone else ever throw punctuation into their posts that doesn't fit when they're otherwise pretty good about that sort of thing?

[strider24seven]

If we're talking about 20th level then Shapechange picks up the Garbler's ability. While you can UMD it from a staff... you then have Shapechange, so you have better forms to choose from.

[Lans]

The biggest problem with the truenamer is that his abilities, when they do work, are largely underwhelming. They're unimpressive in themselves and mostly mimic things that real casters were doing levels before to better effect.


Are they underwelming compared to shadow casters, fighters, healers, adepts, and warlocks? I feel like people are comparing it to the higher tier classes, and saying there abilities thus suck.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Are they underwelming compared to shadow casters, fighters, healers, adepts, and warlocks? I feel like people are comparing it to the higher tier classes, and saying there abilities thus suck.

No, actually. Except perhaps the warlock, which is on the border between T3 and T4, it's quite comparable in ability to classes at that end of the spectrum. This is what I've been saying.

[Gemini476]

Are they underwelming compared to shadow casters, fighters, healers, adepts, and warlocks? I feel like people are comparing it to the higher tier classes, and saying there abilities thus suck.

Shadowcasters weren't too shafted when they got their abilities - they have nine levels to work with, and most of them are fine. They also only get 20 Mysteries, IIRC, but the uses/day add up.

Fighters suffer from a lack of class features, and also because feats just aren't that good. They're better than an unoptimized Truenamer, but fall faar behind in utility if both are mid-to-high op. A fighter can fight and pretty much nothing else, while a Truenamer has some slight skill boosting Utterances, great out-of-combat healing, and is honestly one of the better classes for random knowledge checks. Mostly because the Paragnostic Assembly gives +2 affiliation score for every Knowledge skill with 10 or more ranks, and 23 affiliation score gives +10 Truespeak.
Funnily enough, I think I remember seeing these two being somewhat close in Person_Man's Niche Ranking system.

Healers suffer from being overly focused on one thing, healing, to the detriment of everything else. They are somewhat decent at their niche, but in-combat healing is not a niche that works very well (pre-Heal, that is). Also unicorns, which is neat.
In 3.5 if you can't heal more damage than a person takes (from range, preferably) then you should focus on the thing dealing the damage instead of keeping the Status Quo.

Adepts are... Adepts. They're alright, I guess, but beyond things like Hexer access they're just slow at progressing. They're the highest-tier NPC class, though, but I haven't really looked at them enough to be able to tell what they can or cannot do.

Warlocks are Truenamers who auto-succeed Utterances, have durations longer than a minute, can have multiple up simultaneously, and are great at crafting. They also have generally better Invocations.

Truenamers are better at Knowledge checks and being the caster's cheerleader (A completely valid option, surprisingly), though. They have similarish abilities, but in the end the Truenamer is a class specialized in Damage-Over-Time effects in a system where Alpha Strikes are better. You can get 4d6/turn for 20 turns out of Extended Mortalbane Energy Vortex, but who's going to be dumb enough to stay in the 20ft spread at the end of their turn? I guess you can combine it with Quickened Solid Fog From the Void, but eh.
He also gets a bunch of single-target DOT effects... and the Law of Sequence. Zaq's right when he says that nothing stops a Truenamer, though, since Utterances ignore SR and DR and are often untyped and sometimes saveless.
But even then, damage stops being useful after a while and the ones that do allow saves have rather low ones (10+1/2TN Level+Cha?)
Also, don't expect to be able to ever do much no non-creatures.

What was it Zaq said? The sweet spot for the Truenamer is around level 9, when you get Quicken, level 14 onwards are horrible, and while Truenamer 20 is ridiculously awesome nothing is worth Truenamer 19?


For reference:
Tier 4: Adept, Warlock, High-Op Truenamer, Shadowcaster
Tier 5: Fighter, Healer
Tier 6: Low-Op Truenamer

Niche Ranking (Overall):
45-Warlock
49-Shadowcaster
53-Healer
57-Fighter, Truenamer
58-Adept

Niche Ranking (Combat):
28-Warlock
32-Healer, Shadowcaster
34-Fighter
36-Adept
37-Truenamer

Niche Ranking (Non-Combat):
31-Warlock
32-Shadowcaster
37-Healer, Truenamer
38-Adept
42-Fighter