Need help Deciding a Class. (3.5)

[D4rkh0rus]

Mainly I just entered into an ongoing campaign and the base roles are already taken...
they have
Ranger, fighter, barb, rogue, and a wizard

Ranger handles tracking, rogue traps, barbarian and fighter deal dmg, and wizard is god. I am assuming they're mostly optimized. except for the fighter of course.

I cant decide between choosing an Incarnate, a Binder or a warlock.

I would end up being the party face with trap skills if possible (just not my focus) I would also like to deal decent dmg. Being somewhat of the jack of all trades in the group.

I was thinking warlock cuz a lot of invocations are nifty, but I've never played any of the three classes. I understand all systems though.

What would be the most fun? (Like the one with more options at the same level/avove what the other two can do) (im talking about perks, abilityes, being able to change roles of the fly or at least once a day, you know...)

[Zweisteine]

As every main party role is covered, play whichever sounds the most fun. That probably isn't warlock. Also, warlock has no ability to change roles on the fly, excpet by using UMD (which Incarnate really wants to have).

Incarnate probably looks the most fun, but the class isn't actually that good (except in gestalt).

Binder is a bit more annoying to deal with (IMO), so I'd play an Incarnate, or maybe a Totemist.

Incarnate is probably the God of Jacks of All Trades. Actually, if you could convince your DM to give it a better skill list and skill points (argue that it's a weak class, which it is), it would be one of the best classes for the job, if you have time to prepare.

Read this for advice if you choose incarnate. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=580.0)

Of course, binder is cool too.


Note: I love incarnum, so this is very biased towards it. I think binders are cool, but some of their mechanics are annoying to think about (i.e. they confuse me a little), so I don't study them too much. It also helps that I don't have the Tome of Magic, but I do have Magic of Incarnum. Wait for others' responses before making your choice.

[nedz]

Erm, they seem to be missing a Cleric ?

[Zweisteine]

Erm, they seem to be missing a Cleric ?

THAT IS BAD.

Play a cleric, or use cheese to make an Incarnate a healer.

Play a Lesser Mechanatrix Incarnate of Law (because mechanatrix are lawful planetouched, though you could be any kind of incarnate).
Shaped soulmelds: Lifebond Vestments, Lightning Gauntlets.
Use Lightning Gauntlets to heal yourself (mechanatrix heal 1 hp per 3 electricity damage instead of being hurt), and use lifebond vestments to heal others.
This is inefficient, but infinite.
The Mechanatrix can be found in the Fiend Folio. The Lesser variant for planetouched races can be found a Forgotten Realms book (I forget which).

[Asrrin]

Yeah, I second cleric as you can also boost the fighter to make him relevant.

[D4rkh0rus]

Erm, they seem to be missing a Cleric ?

I've tried... but for some reason.... I CANT unoptimize the cleric... I'd rather not go into it.
Also, the cleric would be there for healing pretty much.. what other thing can he load out that isnt available to a wizard?

Seeing as they're all tier 4/5 classes xept the wizard, Id rather play somethign closer to them than closer to the wizard.

[Vhaidara]

Go for a shugenja or spirit shaman is you want a different kind of cleric. Both are from Complete Divine, both can still heal, and both have interesting little mechanics to them.

Also, if you're in-combat healing, you have unoptimized a cleric.

[Snowbluff]

I've tried... but for some reason.... I CANT unoptimize the cleric... I'd rather not go into it.
Also, the cleric would be there for healing pretty much.. what other thing can he load out that isnt available to a wizard?

Seeing as they're all tier 4/5 classes xept the wizard, Id rather play somethign closer to them than closer to the wizard.

How about a Bard or Marshal, or a mix of the 2. You can give some nice bonuses, and do the jack of all trades thing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Erm, they seem to be missing a Cleric ?

I'm going to agree with this, you can't really go wrong with some sort of divine caster. What will your party do when someone gets poisoned, cursed, killed, etc., or if you run into a fight that you really need a Mass Resist Energy for? The Wizard isn't going to prepare situational spells, but a (Cloistered) Cleric can always sacrifice those for a Cure spell, or even better an offensive or crowd control spell thanks to the spontaneous domain casting ACF.

However, a Bard would be really good in this party. Buffing all of those full-attacking meat shields, and it makes a superb party face. Plus you can throw a Bull's Strength or similar on the weakest party member (Fighter probably) so they can keep up. Stand in the back and fire a bow, I'd probably go something like Silverbrow Human (Savage) Bard 8/ Dragonblood Sorcerer 1/ War Weaver 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ War Weaver 4/ Paragnostic Apostle 4. Get Dragonfire Inspiration, Melodic Casting, Ancestral Relic for this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4), trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Enlarge Spell, and get Draconic Heritage for Battle Dragon from Sorcerer to switch DFI to Sonic. Sorcerer spells known should include Benign Transposition and Blockade. Definitely get a Badge of Valor and learn Inspirational Boost, and pick up Eternal Wands of any arcane spell you want such as Hound of Doom (CW).

[Greenish]

There's some good buffs, and probably some utility that's harder to replicate with a wizard.

Also, a party with two casters has more spell slots than a party with one caster. :smalltongue:


With rather caster-light party, you might look into getting some more magical muscle. A beguiler, for example, can't do much a wizard technically couldn't, but is still unlikely to be redundant due to expansive and accessible list and good skills. Bard has less magic, but also brings nice boosts via music (which fits well in a melee-heavy party). Both are good faces.

[D4rkh0rus]

Before this degrades into multiclass monsters with prestige classes from unknown books...

Id like to point out that im wanting to try a class/archetype that I've never tryed before,

Binders with their vestiges, Incarnum with the soulmends and Warlocks with their spell-like abilityes.
I would rather play one of these.


Although I've never played a bard either.
Though Im not one who likes to buff and sit back singing... I like to either be bloody in the middle, sniping from afar (by sniping I mean headshot, u dead) or far away, sneaking up into some castle, ready to plunder and/or forge fake documents

[Slipperychicken]

If you don't want to play a divine caster, get the Ranger to use a wand of Cure Light Wounds. At least. Your party needs healing.

[Greenish]

Well, any of them should fit the bill. Warlock would add some spammable magic tricks and a bit of ranged damage to the party, not too bad. Binder is stronger and more versatile. Incarnates are funky but I'm not all too familiar with them.

[D4rkh0rus]

If you don't want to play a divine caster, get the Ranger to use a wand of Cure Light Wounds. At least. Your party needs healing.

Im going for a social build, thus UMD is gonna be in there.


Also, just got told that we DO have a bard.

[Invader]

Obligatory DFA suggestion even though it was one of the most boring classes I've ever played.

[Snowbluff]

Although I've never played a bard either.
Though Im not one who likes to buff and sit back singing... I like to either be bloody in the middle, sniping from afar (by sniping I mean headshot, u dead) or far away, sneaking up into some castle, ready to plunder and/or forge fake documents

Bards get the same bonuses they give to others. After Song of the Heart and Words of Creation, you're free to take Snowflake Wardance and Power Attack if you want to melee. They have a good skill list, so sneaking is definitely on the table. I would suggest Beguiler, but you already have a wizard.

For sniping, I've been mulling over Tippy's Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Monk2/Factotum8. Stack extra damage, then use your extra standard actions to attack after using a full round for Decisive Strike. It requires an Elvencraft bow, which is a quarterstaff.

[D4rkh0rus]

No one says anything about warlock. Is there anything outright bad about them?
Or is it that the other 2 classes are just way better?

How good can a Glaivelock get?

(I was thinking Warlock 1-5/Chameleon 2/warlock 6/Warblade 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock 7-14)

[Slipperychicken]

Im going for a social build, thus UMD is gonna be in there.


Also, just got told that we DO have a bard.

I mean, the Ranger and Bard don't even need to roll UMD to activate a CLW wand because CLW is on their class lists.

The rules explicitly state that you don't even need to be able to cast the spell, and that even a Ranger below 4th level can use wands for Ranger spells.

[Snowbluff]

(I was thinking Warlock 1-5/Chameleon 2/warlock 6/Warblade 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock 7-14)They aren't very powerful by themselves, and you'll be strictly weaker than the wizard.

They can hurt pretty good. I like Warlock5/Urpriest2/EldritchDisciple10/HFW3, IIRC. Grab Power Attack, and Persist Divine Power. 8d6+6d6+20/40 (if our DM says you can 2 hand the glaive). For healing, use a full PA Healing (a ED gift) Glaive on an ally.

I personally like Warlock1/AnimaMage10. It's very flavorful.

[D4rkh0rus]

They aren't very powerful by themselves, and you'll be strictly weaker than the wizard.

They can hurt pretty good. I like Warlock5/Urpriest2/EldritchDisciple10/HFW3, IIRC. Grab Power Attack, and Persist Divine Power. 8d6+6d6+20/40 (if our DM says you can 2 hand the glaive). For healing, use a full PA Healing (a ED gift) Glaive on an ally.

I personally like Warlock1/AnimaMage10. It's very flavorful.


I like the urpriest build... But how would he qualify for urpriest?

also how the heck does warlock 1 get 2nd lvl arcane and 2nd lvl vestiges?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No one says anything about warlock. Is there anything outright bad about them?

Not exactly, but there's nothing outright good about them, either.

What is the general alignment of the party? Would a good/exalted character be able to stay friends with them? Would an extremely evil character be able to get along with them?

What level are you starting play at, and what level to you expect to reach before the game ends?

[Snowbluff]

I like the urpriest build... But how would he qualify for urpriest?

also how the heck does warlock 1 get 2nd lvl arcane and 2nd lvl vestiges?
It's a HFW build so, I would suggest a Binder level for the saves and the vestige that regenerates your con score.

Cheesing Anima Mage is cake. Take Improve Bind Vestige and Precocious Apprentice.

[D4rkh0rus]

Not exactly, but there's nothing outright good about them, either.

What is the general alignment of the party? Would a good/exalted character be able to stay friends with them? Would an extremely evil character be able to get along with them?

What level are you starting play at, and what level to you expect to reach before the game ends?


Im pretty sure they'd whack any evil characters. And By if by Exalted good you mean lawful, then I'd rather not. I feel lawful characters have a stick up their... that limits many actions they could take otherwise D:

Wer starting at lvl 4, probably gonna end up around 16-18

[Slipperychicken]

Im pretty sure they'd whack any evil characters. And By if by Exalted good you mean lawful, then I'd rather not. I feel lawful characters have a stick up their... that limits many actions they could take otherwise D:


Exalted is a special, extreme flavor of Good required for [Exalted] feats like Words of Creation. If you commit a single evil act, you lose the feats' benefit and need to get Atonement to get them back.

[Zweisteine]

Favored soul is like cleric, but slightly harder to optimize!

Spam vigor at your friends!

[nedz]

I would end up being the party face with trap skills if possible (just not my focus) I would also like to deal decent dmg. Being somewhat of the jack of all trades in the group.

Beguiler can be a solid face and has trap skills, they tend not to do damage though.

[D4rkh0rus]

I appreciate all the help. but I do want the class to be either Warlock, incarnate or binder.

[iceman10058]

well depending on the level, warlock could also double as a healer, they do have umd. also complete mage has some cool prc for warlocks as well, even some is you decide to add some cleric or wizard levels.

also you can try out druid, divine casting but you get wild shape and some cool spells that are great for back up artillery for the wizard.

also warlock gets cool fluff that lets him fool magic devices like wands and scrolls into working for him even if he dont know the spell later on, same with crafting.

[Grizzled Gryphon]

Well, its not a Binder, Warlock, or Incarnate, but if you want a jack of all trades face man, then factotem would probably be best.

However, I would suggest the warlock as well. Just check out one of the many Lock handbooks around, and you will have way too much info on which way to go to achieve what your after. But like it has been said above, the Lock isn't the best at any particular thing, but he can be quite good.

[Vhaidara]

Alright, giving a review of your actual class questions

Warlock: Very fun, and one of my favorite classes. There are 4 builds I know of
Facelock: High Cha, focus on BFC and diplomancy (3 star)
Blastlock: Ranged damage per turn. my personal favorite, doesn't really need Cha at all, go for more Dex and Int. I also suggest these fixes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275054) (4 stars without fix, 5 with)
Glaivelock: Reach combat, middle damage output. No experience (no rating)
Clawlock: uses a feat from Dragon magazine, melee range, highest damage output. No experience (no rating)

Binder: Really cool class I've never gotten to play. You can customize what you do daily, and I believe one of the vestiges gives you healing. (tentative 4 stars for flavor)

Incarnate: No idea at all, heard good things, heard bad things. The main bad thing is that apparently Magic of Incarnum is one of the worst written books in 3.5 (ironically along with Tome of Magic). Good things in that it's cool and fun if you can figure out how to make it all actually work. (no rating)

Hope this helps. My experience is in mid to low OP games, for a frame of reference.

[D4rkh0rus]

K, After some thought I ended choosing warlock... a certain post about how a warlock can function as a trapmonkey without a single rank in search/OL/DD

via clever use of baleful utterance and the dead walk... just bought the class for me... Derp.


Now, Im torn between a glaivelock and a clawlock.
How would I have to twist and shift my build for either of those?

also, Urpriest into eldritch disciple is out, I cant be evil.

[Faily]

For a Warlock-build, I have personally toyed with the build of a Warlock/Paladin/Enlightened Spirit (Complete Mage).

The Enlightened Spirit PrC gives some Paladin-like Auras, lets your Eldritch Blast affect Incorporeal creatures normally (no miss chance) and deal some more damage to undeads and evil outsiders, some Sacred bonus to AC, Flight ability for 24 hours, Tongues at Will (good for Face-duties), with the capstone ability being continuous Death Ward on yourself. Their Transform Magic-ability is a bit interesting too.

Since Charisma would be one of your better stats as a Warlock, you could go 2 levels of Paladin of Freedom (since you expressed a dislike toward Lawful-alignment) for Divine Grace and Lay on Hands (yeah, LoH isn't that great, but it's a little bit of emergency healing). Two levels there will also help your BAB, saves and HP. The rest I'd take Warlock until qualified for the PrC (with requirement of 9 Ranks of Knowledge: The Planes, after level 6).

Of course, the Enlightened Spirit is far from the most optimized choices. I just have a preference for the fluff of the prestige class. :smallsmile: