3.5 Infinite 3rd level and below spells per day?

[Snowbluff]

I don't know, Twin Repeat Mnemonic Enhancer with MM reduction (Probably Arcane Thesis), then use 2 of the 3rd level slots with Versatile Spellcaster to caste Twin Repeat Mnemonic Enhancer.

Sounds like a huge waste of time. :smalltongue:

[Techwarrior]

Any reason to not do this trick with Mordenkainen's Lucubration for up to 6th level spells as well?

Also, with Versatile Spellcaster and infinite spells of level X, you can effectively cast infinite spells of spell level X+1

[Darth Stabber]

I don't know, Twin Repeat Mnemonic Enhancer with MM reduction (Probably Arcane Thesis), then use 2 of the 3rd level slots with Versatile Spellcaster to caste Twin Repeat Mnemonic Enhancer.

Sounds like a huge waste of time. :smalltongue:

Seems legit, haste all day, fly all day, invisible all day, fireball all the things. For that matter twin repeat fireball.

You probably want arcane thesis, 2 practical metamagics, incantrix, and a sky high spellcraft.

[Snowbluff]

I was referring to the 10 minute casting time. You have a good point, though. It's a pretty sweet source of spells.

Any reason to not do this trick with Mordenkainen's Lucubration for up to 6th level spells as well?


Yes. Mnemonic Enhancer produces spell slots. Lucubration require you to have cast a spell. However, Twin Repeat Sanctum (-1) Lucubration is a Fifth level spell, and a valid spell to be propagated by itself.

[Zirconia]

Interesting; is there a way to do this as a human wizard only? Some of the metamagic reduction feats seem to require other races/classes.

[Snowbluff]

Interesting; is there a way to do this as a human wizard only? Some of the metamagic reduction feats seem to require other races/classes.

Oh, yes. Alacritous Cogitation feat and Spontaneous Divine Wizard (Wizard 5 ACF) both qualify you for Versatile Spellcaster.

Arcane Thesis has no prerequisite past wizard-ness. Practical Metamagic only require Silverbrow Human, which still gets the bonus feat.

Practical MM.
Practical MM.
Versatile Spellcaster.
Arcane Thesis.
Twin Spell.
Repeat Spell.
Sanctum Spell

Hmm... Repeat (1) + Twin (2) + Invisible (-1) + Sanctum (-1) = 0. So that alone should make it work.

[OldTrees1]

Hmm... Repeat (1) + Twin (2) + Invisible (-1) + Sanctum (-1) = 0. So that alone should make it work.

1+2-1-1=1 you need 1 more +0 metamagic

[Zirconia]

Oh, yes. Alacritous Cogitation feat and Spontaneous Divine Wizard (Wizard 5 ACF) both qualify you for Versatile Spellcaster.

Arcane Thesis has no prerequisite past wizard-ness. Practical Metamagic only require Silverbrow Human, which still gets the bonus feat.

Practical MM.
Practical MM.
Versatile Spellcaster.
Arcane Thesis.
Twin Spell.
Repeat Spell.
Sanctum Spell

Hmm... Repeat (1) + Twin (2) + Invisible (-1) + Sanctum (-1) = 0. So that alone should make it work.

Plain human and plain wizard, no ACFs, campaign restrictions. I like Alacritous Cogitation, and see how that gets you Versatile Spellcaster, but the total level mod for Twin and Repeat even with Arcane Thesis and Sanctum Spell and Invisible Spell still seems to be +3+4-2-2-1 = +2?

[OldTrees1]

Plain human and plain wizard, no ACFs, campaign restrictions. I like Alacritous Cogitation, and see how that gets you Versatile Spellcaster, but the total level mod for Twin and Repeat even with Arcane Thesis and Sanctum Spell and Invisible Spell still seems to be +3+4-2-2-1 = +2?

Twin +2 = +4 -1 (Practiced) -1 (Arcane Thesis)
Repeat +1 = +3 -1 (Practiced) -1 (Arcane Thesis)
Invisible -1 = +0 -1 (Arcane Thesis)
Sanctum -1 = +0 -1 (Arcane Thesis)
+2+1-1-1=+1 So we are 1 level short

[ahenobarbi]

Wouldn't repeated invisible sanctum work?

[Snowbluff]

No! You need 2 spells to use Versatile Spellcaster. Twin Repeat gives four slots for the cost of 2 slots.

Twin +2 = +4 -1 (Practiced) -1 (Arcane Thesis)
Repeat +1 = +3 -1 (Practiced) -1 (Arcane Thesis)
Invisible -1 = +0 -1 (Arcane Thesis)
Sanctum -1 = +0 -1 (Arcane Thesis)
+2+1-1-1=+1 So we are 1 level short

Crap, you're right. I'm forgetting something important.

Snowcasting and City Magic would cut by 1, but that's icky. "This combo is offensive! It offends me on a personal level!"

[Ansem]

Surely not possible but might still be worth some rules lawyering and RAW v RAI
Applying Heighten spell for the same slot is still technically using metamagics hence another -1

[Snowbluff]

Surely not possible but might still be worth some rules lawyering and RAW v RAI
Applying Heighten spell for the same slot is still technically using metamagics hence another -1
You're talking to the wrong if you want someone who cares about RAI. :smalltongue:

I was thinking the same thing, but I doubted it could work. I was wondering why my subconscious was voicing its disapproval until I reread arcane thesis. Apparently the feat doesn't work with Heighten spell. :smallfrown:

[Ansem]

So just need another +0 metamagic.

[Ansem]

Book of Erotic Fantasies (I know...) Has metaphysical spellshaper, a 3 lvl prc that gives the Incantatrix capstone / lvl 8 metamagic reduction feature (depending which version you use of the Incantatrix)
If that lowers all metamagic by -1 with a minimum of +1, Arcane thesis can do this further.

[Eonas]

Maybe just add City Spell or something for an extra -1?

[Snowbluff]

Book of Erotic Fantasies (I know...) Has metaphysical spellshaper, a 3 lvl prc that gives the Incantatrix capstone / lvl 8 metamagic reduction feature (depending which version you use of the Incantatrix)
If that lowers all metamagic by -1 with a minimum of +1, Arcane thesis can do this further. I am avoiding 3rd Party and Dragon material. MPS is a pretty funny class. It's broken even beyond Incantatrix. :smalltongue:

This is also for a straight human wizard, which was requested above.

So just need another +0 metamagic.


Maybe just add City Spell or something for an extra -1?
Beguiler'd by me a few posts earlier.

[OldTrees1]

No! You need 2 spells to use Versatile Spellcaster. Twin Repeat gives four slots for the cost of 2 slots.


I thought the rule was each metamagic affected the spell independantly. See Maximized Empowered Fireball as 60 + 1/2 x 10d6 rather than 90. So Twin has +1 cast and Repeat has +1 cast at 1 turn delay.

[Snowbluff]

I thought the rule was each metamagic affected the spell independantly. See Maximized Empowered Fireball as 60 + 1/2 x 10d6 rather than 90. So Twin has +1 cast and Repeat has +1 cast at 1 turn delay.
Twin: has effect twice.
Repeat: Casts it again.

I don't know if repeat wouldn't imitate the MM as well, but I would agree if it did. Either way, you net 3rd level spells with this method.

[TuggyNE]

Twin +2 = +4 -1 (Practiced) -1 (Arcane Thesis)
Repeat +1 = +3 -1 (Practiced) -1 (Arcane Thesis)
Invisible -1 = +0 -1 (Arcane Thesis)
Sanctum -1 = +0 -1 (Arcane Thesis)
+2+1-1-1=+1 So we are 1 level short

If you don't mind being grungy, use Anthrowhale's trick to count Practiced as a metamagic feat of its own, giving a further -1 since it counts toward Arcane Thesis.

[Yukitsu]

I think a dread witch with a living fear spell sat on her head would work.

Edit: Oops, that's second level.

[Grizzled Gryphon]

I don't know if repeat wouldn't imitate the MM as well, but I would agree if it did. Either way, you net 3rd level spells with this method. It only makes sense that a repeated maximized fireball would be another maximized fireball, but "making sense" and "DnD" don't mesh very often...

[Seer_of_Heart]

Is there anything against applying cooperative spell and casting a spell by yourself? Also applying rapid spell would be nice reducing the casting time to 1 minute for a net +0 to spell level (+1 feat, -1 arcane thesis). There also is a dip in halruaan elder to get a -1 to the cost of repeat spell. You also can use snowcasting to qualify for energy substitution.

[OldTrees1]

If you don't mind being grungy, use Anthrowhale's trick to count Practiced as a metamagic feat of its own, giving a further -1 since it counts toward Arcane Thesis.

Huh? I do not know that trick and suspect it to be invalid.

However IF it Were valid, then you would swap out Practiced(Repeat) for Easy(Repeat).

[TuggyNE]

Huh? I do not know that trick and suspect it to be invalid.

His basic idea is that Practical and Easy are both [metamagic], and list no spell level adjustment; they are therefore effectively -1 metamagic feats, and qualify for further Arcane Thesis reduction, bringing them to -2 each.

But since Anthrowhale is given to the use of cheesier interpretations and builds than Tippy, this may not buy you much.

[Snowbluff]

Is there anything against applying cooperative spell and casting a spell by yourself? Also applying rapid spell would be nice reducing the casting time to 1 minute for a net +0 to spell level (+1 feat, -1 arcane thesis). There also is a dip in halruaan elder to get a -1 to the cost of repeat spell. You also can use snowcasting to qualify for energy substitution.
I was thinking of adding Rapid spell, but it's not required for the operation, it just makes it 10 times faster. I was working on this for pure wizard, since it was requested as such. Substitution could work in place of City Magic,, but cooperative would not.

[Endarire]

Transdimensional Spell (Complete Arcane) is +0!

Also, if Practical Metamagic and Easy Metamagic are [Metamagic] feats, each application of these reduces the total cost by another 1 level (2 levels total) via Arcane Thesis.

[Snowbluff]

Dragon Material not assumed, Transdimensional spell is +1, and Practical MM applies to the Metamagic and not the spell. It doesn't reduce the cost any further.

[OldTrees1]

Dragon Material not assumed, Transdimensional spell is +1, and Practical MM applies to the Metamagic and not the spell. It doesn't reduce the cost any further.

AFB
Cooperative Spell +0 metamagic from a WotC book (Complete Arcane IIRC)