Vale Walker {{Hopefully a 'Tier' 3 Druid :)}}

[ngilop]

Vale Walker
\n\n\t
[tr]
Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th


[td]1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
Wild Empathy, Nature Sense, Summon Nature's Ally
5
2
—
—
—
—
—


2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
Trackless Step
5
3
—
—
—
—
—


3rd
+1
+1
+1
+3
Resist Nature's Lore
5
4
2
—
—
—
—


4th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Animal Companion
5
5
3
—
—
—
—


5th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Augmented Summons
5
5
4
—
—
—
—


6th
+3
+2
+2
+5

5
5
4
2
—
—
—


7th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Venom Immunity
5
5
5
3
—
—
—


8th
+4
+2
+2
+6
Rapid Summons
5
5
5
4
—
—
—


9th
+4
+3
+3
+6
Zephyr Message
5
5
5
4
2
—
—


10th
+5
+3
+3
+7

5
5
5
5
3
—
—


11th
+5
+3
+3
+7
Earth Sense
5
5
5
5
4
—
—


12th
+6/+1
+4
+4
+8
Empowered Summons
5
5
5
5
4
2
—


13th
+6/+1
+4
+4
+8
Voice of Nature
5
5
5
5
5
3
—


14th
+7/+2
+4
+4
+9
Healing Rains
5
5
5
5
5
4
—


15th
+7/+2
+5
+5
+9
Timeless Body
5
5
5
5
5
4
2


16th
+8/+3
+5
+5
+10
Traveling Zephyr
5
5
5
5
5
5
3


17th
+8/+3
+5
+5
+10

5
5
5
5
5
5
4


18th
+9/+4
+6
+6
+11
Flame of Life
5
5
5
5
5
5
5


19th
+9/+4
+6
+6
+11

5
5
5
5
5
5
5


20th
+10/+5
+6
+6
+12
Nature's Wrath
5
5
5
5
5
5
5


Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d6

Class Skills:
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge(nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis),and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th


1st
5
2
—
—
—
—
—


2nd
5
2
—
—
—
—
—


3rd
6
3
1
—
—
—
—


4th
6
3
2
—
—
—
—


5th
7
4
2
—
—
—
—


6th
7
4
3
1
—
—
—


7th
8
5
3
2
—
—
—


8th
8
5
4
2
—
—
—


9th
9
5
4
3
1
—
—


10th
9
5
5
3
2
—
—


11th
9
5
5
4
2
—
—


12th
9
5
5
4
3
1
—


13th
10
5
6
4
3
2
—


14th
10
6
6
5
4
2
—


15th
10
6
6
5
5
3
1


16th
11
6
7
5
5
3
2


17th
11
7
7
6
5
4
2


18th
11
7
7
6
6
5
3


19th
12
7
8
6
6
5
3


20th
12
8
8
7
6
5
3



Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Vale Walkers are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear.

Vale Walkers are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. (A Vale Walker may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description) Vale Walkers are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only wooden ones.

A Vale Walker who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

Spells
A Vale Walker casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list. Her alignment may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a Vale Walker must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Vale Walker’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Vale Walker's Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Vale Walker can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Vale Walker. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. When Table: The Vale Walker indicates that the Vale Walker gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Wisdom score for that spell level.

Nature Sense {Ex}: A Vale Walker gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks. These bonuses increase to +3 at 7th and +4 at 14th. At 10th level the Vale Walker can roll twice on either skill check and take the better result.

Wild Empathy {Ex}: A Vale Walker can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The Vale Walker rolls 1d20 and adds her Vale Walker level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.

To use wild empathy, the Vale Walker and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.

A Vale Walker can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a –4 penalty on the check. At 6th level a Vale Walker can use this ability on Plant creatures. At 8th level a Vale Walker can use this ability on Fey as well, taking a -6 penalty. Finally at 12th level, the Vale Walker can use this ability on Elementals, but takes a-4 penalty.

Woodland Stride {Ex}: Starting at 2nd level, a Vale Walker may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her.

Summon Nature's Ally {Sp}: Starting at 1st level, a Vale Walker can cast summon nature's ally I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + her Charisma modifier. At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon nature's ally IX at 17th level). A Vale Walker cannot have more than one summon nature's ally active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summons ends. These summon spells are considered to be part of her spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, she can expend uses of this ability to fufill the construction requirements of any magic item she creates, so long as she can use this ability to cast the required spell.

Trackless Step {Ex}: Starting at 3rd level, a Vale Walker leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired.

Resist Nature’s Lure {Ex}: Starting at 3rd level, a Vale Walker gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against the spell-like abilities of fey.

Animal Companion (Ex): At 4th level, a Vale Walker gains an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures may be added to the Vale Walker’s list of options: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the Vale Walker on her adventures as appropriate for its kind.

This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name, except that the Vale Walker's effective ranger level is her Vale Walker level minus 4 ( minimum 1). A Vale Walker may select from the alternative lists of animal companions just as a ranger can, though again her effective druid level is her Vale Walker level minus 4. Like a ranger, a Vale Walker cannot select an alternative animal if the choice would reduce her effective ranger level below 1st.

Augmented Summons {Ex}: Any creature summoned by use of the Vale Walker's Summon Nature's Ally ability gain a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 bonus to Dexterity.

Venom Immunity {Ex}: At 7th level, a Vale Walker gains immunity to all poisons.

Rapid Summons {Ex}:A Vale Walker may now use her Summon Nature's Ally ability as a standard action.

Zephyr Message {Sp}: At 9th level, once per day, the Vale Walker can cast whispering wind as a spell-like ability, treating her Vale Walker level as her caster level. She gains an additional use of this ability every 4th level afterwards.

Earth Sense {Ex}: The Vale Walker gains Tremorsense 20 feet.

Empowered Summons {Su}: When the Vale Walker uses her Summon Natrue's Ally ability, she may affect the summons with one of the following spells; Aid, Barkskin, Bear's Endurance, Boar's Strength, Cat's Grace, Enlarge Animal, Greater Magic Fang, Haste, Pass without Trace, Rage, Resist Energy, or Water Walk. The caster level of these added spells is half the Vale Walker's level.

Voice of Nature {Su}: At 13th level, the Vale Walker can communicate with any creature with a language or any stone, as if using tongues and stone tell, for up to 1 minute per Vale Walker level per day. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments.

Healing Rains {Su}: At 14th level a Vale Walker can cause a soothing rain to fall in a 20 foot radius cynlinder 20 feet high. This rain lasts for 4 rounds and heals 3d6 points of damage plus 1 per Vale Walker level as well as functioning as a Restoration spell. Undead caught in the area take the damage listed and must make a Will save DC 10+ 1/2 Vale Walker level + Wisdom modifier or suffer a -4 penalty for all actions the rest of the round. A Vale Walker can use this ability a number of times equal to 1 plus her Charisma modifier.

Timeless Body {Ex}: After attaining 15th level, a Vale Walker no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties she may have already incurred, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the Vale Walker still dies of old age when her time is up.

Traveling Zephyr {Sp}: At 16th level a Vale Walker gains this ability that is akin to the spell Wind Walk, except the duration is only 10 minutes per level.

Flame of Life {Su}: Once per day a Vale Walker can use this ability on an ally. This gives the ally fast healing 12 and a fire aura that deals 10 points of fire damage to any creature that strikes the ally in melee. This damage ignores fire resistance but not fire immunity. This ability last for 6 rounds. Furthermore if an ally should die while under the effects of this spell, he comes back to life at 1 hit point the next round.

Nature's Wrath {Sp}: Once per day as a full-round action a Vale Walker can cast Storm of Elemental Fury as a spell like ability.

[Waker]

Class Skills:
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge(nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis),and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier
Ok, so you dropped the Druid down to a d6 HD, lost their good Fort and BAB and went down to 6th level casting. No more Wild Shape either. Since they are supposed to be nature priests and they have lots several of their magical movement means, you might want to consider giving them a few more things like Climb and Jump. A bonus feat here or there wouldn't be amiss either.


Spells Known...
So they have Bard-type casting now, though they are still Wisdom focused. That's fine.



Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Vale Walkers are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear...
Same as a druid, though with poor BAB, they aren't as likely to get so much use from weapon proficiencies.


Spells
A Vale Walker casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list. Her alignment may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a Vale Walker must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against abard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Vale Walker's Wisdom modifier.
Put Bard instead of Vale Walker.


Summon Nature's Ally {Sp}: Starting at 1st level, a Vale Walker can cast summon nature's ally I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + her Charisma modifier. At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon nature's ally IX at 17th level). A Vale Walker cannot have more than one summon nature's ally active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summons ends. These summon spells are considered to be part of her spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, she can expend uses of this ability to fufill the construction requirements of any magic item she creates, so long as she can use this ability to cast the required spell.
Not a bad power, though the portion about it interacting with item usage and creation is a bit odd.


Animal Companion (Ex): At 4th level, a Vale Walker gains an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures may be added to the Vale Walker’s list of options: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the Vale Walker on her adventures as appropriate for its kind...
Still has the animal companion, but it's weaker now.


Plant Empathy {Ex}: A Vale Walker can improve the attitude of plant. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The Vale Walker rolls 1d20 and adds her Vale Walker level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical plant has a starting attitude of unfriendly.

To use wild empathy, the Vale Walker and the plant must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing a plantin this way takes 1minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
Curious, now the Vale Walker can get friendly with plants instead of just animals. Also, you put Wild Empathy instead of Plant Empathy. You might consider shortening the entire ability to "Functions as Wild Empathy, but now the Vale Walker can influence creatures of the Plant type."


Zephyr Message {Sp}: At 9th level, once per day, the Vale Walker can cast whispering wind as a spell-like ability, treating her Vale Walker level as her caster level. She gains an additional use of this ability every 4th level afterwards.
Not bad, but an odd choice for another SLA.


Elemental Empathy {Ex}:...
Same as before, you referred to it as Wild Empathy again in the second paragraph. Useful though.


Voice of Nature {Su}: At 13th level, the Vale Walker can communicate with any creature with a language or any stone, as if using tongues and stone tell, for up to 1 minute per Vale Walker level per day. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments.
Quite fun, makes the Vale Walker a bit more of a diviner with those abilities. Perhaps consider limiting the stone to unworked stone to keep in theme with the nature priest.


Timeless Body {Ex}: After attaining 15th level, a Vale Walker no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties she may have already incurred, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the Vale Walker still dies of old age when her time is up.
Another handy hand-me-down from the druid.

You've got quite a few of the useful abilities of a druid, though toned down. You should be able to put this as T3, though I don't know if I like the number of dead levels, especially in the later career. Perhaps you could fill in some gaps with situational, fluff abilities like reducing the time to forage for food, ignore the effects of extreme climates or Detect X where X could be something natural or unnatural.

[ngilop]

Thanks I just needed soem time off of my Fighter Project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318268) and made this class in about umm 40-ish minutes.

I basically just tried to do what the old 2nd ed Druid could do and then expand upon that.

I will not give this class a capstone as any class that gets 6th or above spells is already good enough they should not get a capstone. But I cna give some more higher level abilities, like I siad it wa sa quick class and at the time I didn't have any additioal ideas

[Twogunkid]

I agree you do have a number of dead levels. I do like a spontaneous druid caster (you came close spirit shaman) The d6 is a good choice. (though it leaves the lord of dead levels the cleric with the only d8.)
I might give them brachiation abilities. Perhaps a climb speed or an aquatic swim varitant that scales like a barbarians fast movement, to let them better bond with nature. (As it stands low tier 3, high tier 4 IMO, but very PRC outable.)

Dragon 339 has a Druid Variant called Sidhe Scholar (sort of the Druid's cloistered cleric) which has some class features you may want to look at/ consider. But it is very Fey-fluffed.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I will not give this class a capstone as any class that gets 6th or above spells is already good enough they should not get a capstone.

This statement is entirely untrue. Not putting a capstone on a class isn't a way of balancing it: it's a way of virtually requiring multiclassing.

I assure you that every Vale Walker with even an iota of sense in optimization will be a Vale Walker 19 / Something Else 1. Why? Let's look at what 20th level gives us, shall we?


1d6 hit points, 4 + Int Skill Points, +1 Base Attack Bonus, +1 caster level, and +1 Fortitude

And that's it. That's the whole list. That list basically gives worse benefits than almost any other level you could take, be it in a base class or a prestige class.

20th level capstone should, in my opinion, always be a thing. Why? Because it encourages and tempts people to stay the course and complete the class. Because it gives people something to look forward to. And most of all: because capstones are awesome and fun, and people love having these powerful abilities. I'd always suggest having a capstone, and making it a good one.



...and one other thing. If you're going to use a pattern for gaining spells, stick with it. Some of your spells per day follow a 2/3/4/5/5/5/... pattern, and others have an extra 4 in there to be 2/3/4/4/5/5/5... It's just weird and confusing. Pick one of those and stick with it.

[Waker]

20th level capstone should, in my opinion, always be a thing. Why? Because it encourages and tempts people to stay the course and complete the class. Because it gives people something to look forward to. And most of all: because capstones are awesome and fun, and people love having these powerful abilities. I'd always suggest having a capstone, and making it a good one.
Nailed it. It's not just about power, a capstone doesn't have to be some super amazing ability. But you do want to reward a player who has stuck it out and resisted the urge to multiclass or take a PrC. When the option is taking the 20th level and getting the depressing list of items mentioned by Djinn and taking just about anything else in place, the overwhelming majority are going with the second option.

[ngilop]

Ok handed them a capstone and included Fae Empathy.

hopefully this hits a nice and solid 'Tier' 3

[ngilop]

Realzied i had fae empathy twice so i corrected that, now to find something to slap in at 18th level.

[Just to Browse]

The druid can still fly at level 3. They can drop stupid good crowd control, win all survival games, and be undetectable in forest settings. They can still completely invalidate ranged tactics, crap on all melee archetypes, bust out game-winning scrying, grant infinite lives, and dominate all battlefield control. They still get a class feature that is single-handedly better than the fighter even without the shower of potential spell buffs.

But now they cannot heal, they cannot contribute usefully at low levels, they can't summon decently even with Greenbound abuse, and they're discouraged from doing anything but picking OP spells and playing padded sumo.

The druid is still way above Tier 3, laughing at beguilers as they fly into the air a level before invisibility comes online, and no-save blinding fools that give them dirty looks. But now they're also littered with trap options and only come with 2 decent build paths. This class fails to fix the abusive druid options and makes them less rewarding to play. I do not recommend its use.

I'm going to say what I always say when a caster fix thread comes along: rewrite their spell list.

[ngilop]

Can you explain a bit better than just spouting everything and ya know.. give specific example of how this version of druid somehwo breaks the game?

i really don't think that flying is the single most powerful thing ever and should be perma bannede'ertime yo! like you seem to belive.

i took away their wildshaping

their animal companion is weaker

and theri splel casting has been reduced to less thanhalf of what it used to be.

im not surehow they got to be the singe most powerful class on par with a sorcerer, favored soul or binder(..?) Im not seeing a difference between this class and a bard

[Just to Browse]

First, I recommend becoming familiar with the power and behavior of the druid class before trying to fix it. This is not omgwtfbroken any more than the sorcerer is, but a basic knowledge of druid casting (take a look at the druid handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=corc4dnlni66bm63rqe9el7u84&topic=1354.msg35415#msg35415)) will make it very obvious why this class isn't fixed. I will help you by showing you the spellcasting problems, and underlining things that make the druid still win everything they ever cared about. There is no delay in their access to master air, blinding spittle, creeping cold, entangle, camouflage, thunder head, pass without trace, obscuring mist, rot of ages, mass snake's swiftness, splinterbolt, and spider hand. They have sorcerer-speed access to sleet storm, stone shape, blindsight, alter fortune, entangling staff, girallon's blessing, spiritjaws, wind wall, and venomfire. Even with the reduced access, these druids can negate fights entirely with spells like mummify, drown, antilife shell, energy immunity, and greater scrying. By virtue of their spells alone, these druids are capable of doing everything better than the warblade, and the disparity just grows as they get to high levels.

The druid can still go where they please, and any decent druid optimizer will see how easy it is to go full Toxic Shuckle and beat the socks off all level-appropriate challenges. Add that to the fact that the druid's quadratically-scaling animal companion is saddled with a linear nerf (making it terrible at level 4 and still capable of invalidating the fighter at level 15) and the fact that you're handing them free utility, the net result is a class that outperforms even the beguiler.

But that's not the reason I don't like this fix. I like high-powered stuff, and even a heavy-handed companion/casting nerf and the loss of wild shape wouldn't totally turn me off. The real problem the new druid has is that, by virtue of the druid nerfs you have assigned, the class is a battlefield of trap options. The optimization floor is truly cavernous. Druids can't even pretend to make good healbots, tag-team fighters, shapers, or summoners, because the spells they get are less level-appropriate than the CW samurai's class features.

[Grod_The_Giant]

@ngilop: It's not bad, I guess. I think the main thing that bothers me it's a partial caster, but all it can do is cast spells. The bard also has his music, his skills, and can gish it up if he wants. This guy? Not so much. I'd probably give him back his medium BAB and Shapeshift (the PHB 2 version). That one's honestly pretty balanced, very flavorful, and a ton of fun.

Also, Nature Sense should do something more useful than a tiny non-scaling bonus to a few skill checks (+level to the skills? Roll the skills twice, take the better result?), and you can probably fold Plant, Fey and Elemental Empathy in with Wild Empathy, for greater neatness. "At 6th level, you may use this ability to communicate with plants." Obligatory dead levels critique.

@Just to Browse: I feel like you're contradicting yourself there. On the one hand, you're arguing that he has full- or nearly-full speed access to a big list of useful spells. On the other hand, you're arguing that "the spells they get are less level-appropriate than the CW samurai's class features." (PS: comparing things to a (non-Sublime Chord) Bard, Binder, or Psychic Warrior is more useful than to a Warblade, who is T3 by the skin of his teeth, if at all)

[Just to Browse]

@Just to Browse: I feel like you're contradicting yourself there. On the one hand, you're arguing that he has full- or nearly-full speed access to a big list of useful spells. On the other hand, you're arguing that "the spells they get are less level-appropriate than the CW samurai's class features." (PS: comparing things to a (non-Sublime Chord) Bard, Binder, or Psychic Warrior is more useful than to a Warblade, who is T3 by the skin of his teeth, if at all)

This guy beats out bard, binder, and psywar as well. The idea is that if you go to DM's Druid Handbook and look at his suggested spells, half of them still make the druid better than any Tier 3 out there.

And there is no contradiction in "This class is easily too strong with basic spell selection, but there are tons of trap options". For the old druid, 10% of spells were amazing, 40% were useful because you could prep them day-to-day, and 50% were pretty much tripe. For this new druid, 5% of spells are amazing (and they're the same spells as the old druid), 5% are useful utility, 35% are useless because they're niche and now you can't waste the spell knowledge on them, and the 50% of tripe is even worse. So even though the old druid was overpowered, it is a better class because it doesn't punish creativity or exponentially reward loophole abuse.

[ngilop]

Ok i can combine all the X empathy abilities into 1.

I don't really know what else to slap in this class for useful nature themed abilities


I do not want anything to do with wildshaping/shapeshifting as I already have my Primal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264875)


I am still basically on the opposing side of 'the vale walker is the most powerful class ever becuase look at its spells'

and provign linkg to mega optimization guides is never a good thing to compare anything against, especially when you won't compare and contrast an equal OP-fu of the beguiler or what not.

any suggestion on other nature-y kinda stuff would be cool especially if they focused on some elemental stuffs like i did with my 2 wind based abilities.

[Just to Browse]

I am still basically on the opposing side of 'the vale walker is the most powerful class ever becuase look at its spells'I feel like you're stooping to intellectual dishonesty because critique makes you uncomfortable. At no point has anyone but you ever even discussed this class being "the most powerful class ever", but I have repeatedly said that rudimentary spell selection involving (basically) PHB + PHBII + SpC lets the "Tier 3 druid" roll faces harder than any tier 3, both in and out of combat.


and provign linkg to mega optimization guides is never a good thing to compare anything against, especially when you won't compare and contrast an equal OP-fu of the beguiler or what not."Some of the spell section of DM's druid handbook" =/= "mega optimization guides". It's singular, it's only a fraction of the section on spells (and nothing but spells), it's devoid of rules abuse and even metamagic feats, and it's the standard that tiering is based around. When I said this druid was capable of outperforming the beguiler, I meant a beguiler using the beguiler handbook.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I feel like you're stooping to intellectual dishonesty because critique makes you uncomfortable. At no point has anyone but you ever even discussed this class being "the most powerful class ever", but I have repeatedly said that rudimentary spell selection involving (basically) PHB + PHBII + SpC lets the "Tier 3 druid" roll faces harder than any tier 3, both in and out of combat.
There's no need to get nasty. I agree the spells are good, but I disagree that they're game-breaking or issue-causing (at least in the context of T3 classes and builds). The class does a fine job of weakening druidic casting; to do more would require a massive overhaul of the casting system.

[Just to Browse]

I'm calling him out on something he did, no insults involved. If I made up facts about your argument, that would be intellectually dishonest and you would be free to call me on it.

This certainly nerfs druid casting, but like I said before: basic druid spell selection (and nothing else) allows the druid to still dominate encounters better than any tier 3. And while everyone seems hung up on this, there is still the problem of this class unfairly punishing people who lack system mastery or don't want to focus AotW/turtling + utility.

And while I disagree that you would need an overhaul to nerf druid casting farther, that's not the point. This class has problems that make it bad, and regardless of the amount of effort required to improve those problems, they still exist and make the class bad. This class severely punishes people who want to do cool druid things, while failing to meet its goal of being tier 3, and whether it takes 10 hours and a whiteboard to fix that, or 10 years and a team of geniuses, that problem is still something that needs to be addressed.

[Seerow]

Seriously, when I was arguing about the strength of the Spirit Shaman's spell list, I was told with full seriousness that a Druid without Wildshape and Animal companion would fall to tier 2/3, despite 9th level casting. Repeatedly. By multiple people.

Now somehow 2/3rds Druid casting with a set limited spells known is so high in tier 3 that it invalidates everything? Yeah screw that.

[Just to Browse]

Right, and when I was arguing about the strength of the PHB druid, I was told in full seriousness that a fighter with weapon focus and spring attack would outperform a druid, despite 9th level casting. Repeatedly. By multiple people.

And somehow the druid with a limited number of per-day uses of some "wild shape" class feature is so strong in combat that it invalidates the fighter? Yeah screw that.

[ngilop]

Ok i combined teh X empathy abilities and added in a few to make the summon nature ally ability more attractive, as that is what i was aiming the main class feature be.

[ngilop]

added Healing rains.. now to think of a cool fire based ability to give this class to round out it nature oriendted abilities :)

[ngilop]

Fire ability yaaay!!


also edited it some more, I should note I got rid of druids ever having animal companions weakened and their wildshape abiltilities.

The ranger gets his animal companion back as 1st and everything is based off that.

What I tried to do with this class was what I am guessing the creators fo the 3rd ed druid were thinking, summon a lot of wolves/bears/unicorns stuff like that

Thats what i did with ths class I made is so they have their main ability 'summon things" and expnaded upon that " free 'improved' augment summons with that one feat that gives you a added buff spell for free :) but limited to certains pells

then I added in at least 1 ability that is related to each element :)