How can I pump my will save as high as possible as quickly as possible?

[AnonymousPepper]

I'm playing an Artificer in 3.5. Managed to get myself killed (via some very bad rolls - at level 2). The DM agreed to bring my character back... but with an interesting little twist. I would be at the mercy of a wizard who resurrected me but had also placed some sort of permanent Dominate Person on me in the process and would reserve the right to use me as a puppet.

Naturally, I'm glad to have my rather carefully crafted Artificer back, but I'm also quite keen on getting out of this as soon as I possibly can.

I'm not entirely sure how to permanently break free - that's up to the DM's discretion - but for right now I need to be able to pump my will as quickly as I can so that I at least stand a chance of fighting it off every once in a while.

And the methods can't be overtly directed at this end. The DM explicitly told me that he can read my thoughts perfectly and his attempt to assert complete control is an interrupt, meaning I can't tell my party members and I can't do something that is obviously meant to help buck him.

I know I can use Protection from Evil temporarily, but that's about it. I'm looking for a more semi-permanent - bearing in mind I don't know how to completely remove it - solution to just pump the Will Saves up.

I'd prefer not to spend any feats, as feats are precious for an Artificer.

[Emperor Tippy]

Protection From Evil, tell the party, have them keep it up while you craft the battle standard that is like 5K GP and gives continuous Protection From Evil to everyone in the area.

That's about the lowest level method to do what you want.

Granted, that could just cause the wizard to teleport in and blast you all away for you breaking your word/acting against his interests (in his opinion).

[AnonymousPepper]

Protection From Evil, tell the party, have them keep it up while you craft the battle standard that is like 5K GP and gives continuous Protection From Evil to everyone in the area.

That's about the lowest level method to do what you want.

Granted, that could just cause the wizard to teleport in and blast you all away for you breaking your word/acting against his interests (in his opinion).

Tippy = win!

Do you have a source on that item?

[Emperor Tippy]

Hero's of Battle, page 133. Banner of Law, costs 8,000 GP.

[Twilightwyrm]

Wait, so this guy has given himself the terrible curse of having to read your mind perfectly? I'm not sure your DM fully understands what this means. That means that whatever insignificant little idea, whatever perverted thought, whatever mindless nonsense goes through your character's head, this wizard is now having this broadcast directly into his brain. If he can turn it off, then start thinking some insane foolishness or another, hope he has turned it off, then take Tippy's plan. Otherwise, it might be more fun to make him suffer for this particular self-inflicted curse, and think all sorts of foolishness, engage in all sort of silliness, and otherwise make him regret his own foolishness, with the perfectly justified excuse that "you did this to yourself".

[Darrin]

Shape Soulmeld: Planar Ward (Magic of Incarnum). Immunity to mental contol 24/7.

Otherwise, consider Iron Will + Cumbrous Will (Savage Species) + Dream domain or some other method to gain immunity to shaken.

[Abaddona]

So, your DM basically gave you in story reason to go Chaotic Neutral Crazy and become some sort of mad inventor. If wizard who controls you is sane person (or other alignment than CN/CE) you can use that concession and start doing weird/creepy stuff like "performing weird experiments (you may need some help from someone with ranks in heal skill) on little fluffy animals to discover the secrets of nature" - basically let him start wondering if this permament mind-reading really was such a great plan and if you really can be of use to him. Of course you don't want to cross the line of "kill it with fire" (don't give him reasons to blast you) - just be creepy and kinda useless in usefull kinds of way (well, your party members may have some objections also if you keep making strange magical items for them instead of standard ones, but typical murderhobo pack has far less reasons to think about their reputation than high level wizard).

[Grek]

Keep in mind that you can't think about thinking about weird creepy things, or he'll realize it's a ruse. You just sort of need to come up with the plan without ever thinking about it.

[CombatOwl]

I'm playing an Artificer in 3.5. Managed to get myself killed (via some very bad rolls - at level 2). The DM agreed to bring my character back... but with an interesting little twist. I would be at the mercy of a wizard who resurrected me but had also placed some sort of permanent Dominate Person on me in the process and would reserve the right to use me as a puppet.

Wait a minute... Isn't there a thread about this? :smallbiggrin:


Naturally, I'm glad to have my rather carefully crafted Artificer back, but I'm also quite keen on getting out of this as soon as I possibly can.

I'm not entirely sure how to permanently break free - that's up to the DM's discretion - but for right now I need to be able to pump my will as quickly as I can so that I at least stand a chance of fighting it off every once in a while.

Hmm. How's your charisma? A dip in wizard/sorcerer/cleric/bard would immediately help your will save. If you have a higher charisma than wisdom, Force of Personality would certainly apply. If Tome of Battle is open, you could take the maneuver that lets you use a concentration check in place of a will save, if you had some means of boosting your concentration check very high (+10 magical masterwork tool or something).


I know I can use Protection from Evil temporarily, but that's about it. I'm looking for a more semi-permanent - bearing in mind I don't know how to completely remove it - solution to just pump the Will Saves up.

I'd prefer not to spend any feats, as feats are precious for an Artificer.

Umm, if you can't make an item, don't want to burn a feat, and have 20 levels of artificer planned out, there's not a lot you can do.

[Abaddona]

Grek - yeah, it's rather territory of "changing character in believable way" instead of trying to cleverly outsmart the wizard. Still - having death experience and ending under permament domination spell is quite viable reason to go mad.
Of course many things are depending on such things as being in character aware of whole "mind-reading" (and domination) and on the character of such wizard. If he is guy who isnąt above blasting away any being who irritates him then any tries to play it with him will end in TPK (if you stop being usefull he will just teleport in and kill you). If not OP can for example make his character develop some sort of obsession ("oh great master I think about you every night") which may give the wizard some second thoughts. For example: if he tries to be some sort of evil mastermind and artificer will insist on leaving 2m tall flaming letters "according to the will of Great Master" - of course out of pure devotion to him - everytime he makes OP character perform some sort of task, then he may simply look for another pawn.

[Randomocity132]

Tippy = win!



Tippy, you better sig that.

[Emperor Tippy]

Tippy, you better sig that.

Nope, my sig is so full of Win that no more will fit.

[AnonymousPepper]

Do bear in mind that there's a Pally in the party who is, despite being new to D&D, a fantastic roleplayer, so I have to avoid getting too overtly crazy.

But... wow. I love you guys. I wish I could personally each and every one of you a cookie. :biggrin:

[AnonymousPepper]

Hmm. How's your charisma? A dip in wizard/sorcerer/cleric/bard would immediately help your will save. If you have a higher charisma than wisdom, Force of Personality would certainly apply. If Tome of Battle is open, you could take the maneuver that lets you use a concentration check in place of a will save, if you had some means of boosting your concentration check very high (+10 magical masterwork tool or something)..

My Charisma's pretty bad, namely because I asked for - and got - the Pathfinder trait that subs in INT for CHA on UMD checks.

However, I can certainly make my Concentration check as high as I would ever need it. My UMD is +16, which is quite enough to activate a divine wand of Guidance of the Avatar most of the time. That may be a possibility.

We are tentatively planning to go epic, and Artificer's epic progression is kinda meh to me, so I might just go for a multiclass option.

[Telonius]

If your Concentration check is high, Martial Study/Moment of Perfect Mind could fix it. (Iron Heart Surge, for that matter).

[(Un)Inspired]

If you cant spare any feats then you probably cant spare any class levels but 2 levels of paladin + Serenity gets you 3+ your Wis (again) to your will

[AnonymousPepper]

If your Concentration check is high, Martial Study/Moment of Perfect Mind could fix it. (Iron Heart Surge, for that matter).

What would the pros and cons be to taking Martial Study as a feat be compared to taking a dip in Warblade?

Because the way I'm seeing this, if I'm going epic levels anyway, I may as well delay the artificer progression by one level and pick up the maneuvers and stances and boni - and the one-time d12+CON HD! - from Warblade, since I'm more likely to be flush with levels than feats over time.

Or maybe I could even just go Warblade 3 and cheese my way out of it with the surge?

The biggest issue I see is that I'm built much more for ranged than melee (I even have the noncombatant flaw), so I'm not sure exactly how well Warblade would synergize with a ranged build. I mean, Battle Ardor is nice - netting a +7 to my crit confirmations would be splendid - and the surge is a guaranteed escape from the domination and the hit die is nice... but... I don't know.

[Telonius]

Pros for Warblade: more proficiencies, better Fort save, better hit die, a few extra skills on your Class Skills list, +Int to Reflex saves when not flat-footed, Weapon Aptitude (which probably won't matter to your build).

Cons for Warblade: slightly slower Infusion progression, getting crafting feats a level later than usual, missing out on a level of Craft Reserve, miss out on the Bonus Feat at Artificer20, possibility of Multiclass XP penalty (if your table uses this rule, and your character isn't Human).

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, if you dip warlade you can refresh your counter as a standard action + swift action (can be done with an attack or full attack), if you don't dip, it's once per encounter.

[Twilightwyrm]

What would the pros and cons be to taking Martial Study as a feat be compared to taking a dip in Warblade?

Because the way I'm seeing this, if I'm going epic levels anyway, I may as well delay the artificer progression by one level and pick up the maneuvers and stances and boni - and the one-time d12+CON HD! - from Warblade, since I'm more likely to be flush with levels than feats over time.

Or maybe I could even just go Warblade 3 and cheese my way out of it with the surge?

The biggest issue I see is that I'm built much more for ranged than melee (I even have the noncombatant flaw), so I'm not sure exactly how well Warblade would synergize with a ranged build. I mean, Battle Ardor is nice - netting a +7 to my crit confirmations would be splendid - and the surge is a guaranteed escape from the domination and the hit die is nice... but... I don't know.

It will depend on whether your DM is open to you taking Homebrew maneuvers. There are quite a few ranged-based disciplines from homebrew (On this very site!) that I'm sure you could make work, and if not, Warblade isn't terrible for ranged characters. So if yes Homebrew, then definitely consider it. If not...you need to extensively consider it, and pick ahead of time the very best maneuvers that you think will help your particular case.

[AnonymousPepper]

It will depend on whether your DM is open to you taking Homebrew maneuvers. There are quite a few ranged-based disciplines from homebrew (On this very site!) that I'm sure you could make work, and if not, Warblade isn't terrible for ranged characters. So if yes Homebrew, then definitely consider it. If not...you need to extensively consider it, and pick ahead of time the very best maneuvers that you think will help your particular case.

Got a link to any of these by any chance?

[CombatOwl]

What would the pros and cons be to taking Martial Study as a feat be compared to taking a dip in Warblade?

Warblade Pro:
d12 hit dice!
Amazing method for refreshing maneuvers
+1 BAB
Switchable Weapon-Specific Feats
Maneuvers!

Warblade Con:
Lose out on casting
...

That's about it, really.


Because the way I'm seeing this, if I'm going epic levels anyway, I may as well delay the artificer progression by one level and pick up the maneuvers and stances and boni - and the one-time d12+CON HD! - from Warblade, since I'm more likely to be flush with levels than feats over time.

Or maybe I could even just go Warblade 3 and cheese my way out of it with the surge?

IHS is well worth having for pretty much anyone. It's quite a surprise for enemy casters who think they've got you disabled. You can fit both IHS and Moment of Perfect Mind in.

Alternately, consider swordsage. It still nets you Moment of Perfect Mind (but not IHS), but you can get Int to AC by taking Carmendine Monk (or Kung-Fu Genius).


The biggest issue I see is that I'm built much more for ranged than melee (I even have the noncombatant flaw), so I'm not sure exactly how well Warblade would synergize with a ranged build.

It gets particularly stupid with ranged (throwing, to be specific) if you pick up Bloodstorm Blade later. Take enough Iron Heart for Iron Heart Surge, and grab Moment of Perfect Mind... then fill the rest of your maneuvers in with White Raven Tactics to give your allies bonuses and extra actions.


I mean, Battle Ardor is nice - netting a +7 to my crit confirmations would be splendid - and the surge is a guaranteed escape from the domination and the hit die is nice... but... I don't know.

I've never considered it before, but an Artificer/Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade would be absolutely insane.

[Segev]

Is this wizard evil or merely neutral? Is it possible to turn this into some sort of beneficial relationship? He obviously values something you can do for him if he's bringing you back as his even part-time-free-willed puppet. If he can constantly read your mind, then you need merely learn diplomacy and bluff - not to lie to him about what you're thinking, but to convince yourself AND him what you want is in his interests - and work him around to being an ally.

If he's not reprehensible, anyway.

If he is...Tippy's advice is probably the best you'll get. (It undoubtedly is the soundest mechanical advice you'll get around here.) If he's not - if you can work him around to having mutual interests - talk him into helping out a bit, and think at him that you'd like to know if he'd like you to anything while you're working with the party. If he can be a long-distance benefactor, you could become a quest source for the party.

The key to making these sorts of complications fun, in my experience, is to make them sources of adventure and plot hooks. This doesn't mean they have to be inherently antagonistic (though it could be, depending on the wizard's nature and your party's and your own). He wants control. You can't stop him from having it without refusing the deal entirely. But he constantly knows what you're thinking. So he basically can't ignore you. If you can find mutually beneficial goals and convince him to make it worth the party's while to help pursue them - again provided we don't have alignment conflicts that would make such goals reprehensible to the party - this could be a boon for everybody.