Can a Vow of Poverty Cleric cast Summon Holy Symbol?

[INoKnowNames]

I'm working on something I have an idea for in the back of my head.

Clerics are one of the classes that are normally not a good fit for Vow of Poverty, since there are plenty of Cleric spells that require a Divine Focus, and those aren't technically on the allowed item list.

However, if said Cleric took the feat Worldly Focus, they wouldn't need it, at least for the sake of casting spells... but that might not cover Turn Undead, could it...

If you conjure a Holy Symbol into existance for a few moments, if only for the sake of Turning Undead, and it's not even anything more than a piece of wood, is that really enough to completely Void Vow of Poverty? Or at least should it? If it only exists because of the spell and disappears after the spell ends, it is really the kind of thing that would or should ping on Vow of Poverty?

[CRtwenty]

If you're allowed a Spell Component Pouch under VoP I see no reason why a Holy Symbol wouldn't be allowed as well, even if it's not directly stated.

[Vertharrad]

I would think a wooden holy symbol should be fine...the silver holy symbol will probably break the vow. But don't quote me on that...

[Socratov]

I think it depends on your DM and how you procure the item.

For instance, if you take VoP and your church gives/loans you the symbol for use on your travels to give it back if you don't use it or check into church again.

[Heliomance]

You are allowed some simple clothes. Personally, I see no reason why you wouldn't be allowed to stitch your holy symbol onto your clothing as an embroidered design.

[Grek]

You are explicitly permitted to own a quarterstaff. Carve your holy symbol into it.

[Chronos]

Or just ask your DM to houserule the holy symbol to be allowed under Vow of Poverty. I can understand denying a wizard a spellbook, since those cost thousands of GP, but a wooden holy symbol is both extremely cheap, and is fully in keeping with the principles of VoP, since it's typical for exalted characters to be religious.

[sideswipe]

My dm was nice and let me cast spells with pricey material components by spending small amounts of XP. 1xp = 20gold.

my VOP cleric was the most fun i ever had roleplaying. it was especially fun finding passive aggressive ways for dealing with any evil characters and NPC's since i also took vow of non violence and vow of peace.
by level 8 i had most of the vows, and a handful of other feats that made me a literal shining aura of ultimate goodness for my deity. (true believer as well of course).

we also had an angel in the party (astral deva) and i was a better angel then they were.

[Dalebert]

My dm was nice and let me cast spells with pricey material components by spending small amounts of XP. 1xp = 20gold.

I'm pretty sure that's either explicitly allowed or there is a variant suggested to allow it but I thought the conversion rate was 1 xp per 5 gp. Your DM seems very generous with that conversion rate. That's a pretty standard conversion rate for xp to gold based on magic item creation, I believe.

[Jeff the Green]

I'm pretty sure that's either explicitly allowed or there is a variant suggested to allow it but I thought the conversion rate was 1 xp per 5 gp. Your DM seems very generous with that conversion rate. That's a pretty standard conversion rate for xp to gold based on magic item creation, I believe.

You're exactly right: 1 xp = 5 gp.

For the OP, I think RAW you can't, as you're not allowed to "possess" anything but the prescribed items (which don't include holy symbols), and for the duration of the spell you're possessing it. One more reason VoP should die in a fire.

[sideswipe]

i have not read the rules as i always used a holy symbol as my divine focus.

does the divine focus material component HAVE to be a holy symbol to your god? as in the one you have to purchase. or can it be anything within reason. E.G. a symbol scribed into your quarterstaff.

[Dalebert]

One more reason VoP should die in a fire.

I'll throw some lamp oil on that fire.

[Flickerdart]

i have not read the rules as i always used a holy symbol as my divine focus.

does the divine focus material component HAVE to be a holy symbol to your god? as in the one you have to purchase. or can it be anything within reason. E.G. a symbol scribed into your quarterstaff.
The rules give us:


Divine Focus (DF)
A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith.
So from the description of Divine Focus we know two things - that for clerics and paladins, the divine focus is a holy symbol, and that a divine focus is an item. Therefore, a holy symbol must be an item. By no definition I'm familiar with is something carved into a stick an item. So yes, you have to buy the item called "holy symbol" by RAW.

For turning undead,

You must present your holy symbol to turn undead.
So you can't use a carving or drawing of a symbol either.

Ceci n'est pas un pipe.

[Psyren]

Summon Holy Symbol works fine, the HS from that spell explicitly has no value. Also, you can use Wordly Focus. And if all that fails, just be a druid, because their "holy symbol" is valueless and doesn't violate the vow.

Note that the holy symbol difficulty was apparently intended. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a)

[Chronos]

And here I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that it was just accidentally omitted. Yeah, deliberately leaving off holy symbols is just idiotic.

Note also that the author of that article also thinks that it's most useful on a monk.

[Grek]

Comedy option: Use the 'cleric of a cause' option to play a Cleric of Communism. Claim hammers and sickles as the holy symbols of your faith. Since both are simple weapons, you're allowed to own as many as you like.

[ShurikVch]

Ancestral Speaker ACF from Dr#311
Your holy symbol is You!
Lose domains and turn/rebuke undead.

[gorfnab]

How about a tattoo as a Holy Symbol. Maybe fluff it to be that the ink used for the tattoo was made with holy water.

[Flickerdart]

How about a tattoo as a Holy Symbol. Maybe fluff it to be that the ink used for the tattoo was made with holy water.
Not an item, doesn't work RAW.

[Curmudgeon]

Summon Holy Symbol works fine, the HS from that spell explicitly has no value.
The value doesn't matter. What matters is that Vow of Poverty doesn't allow you to use anything except in 4 specific categories (numbers added in red below):

Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: (1) You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. (2) You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magic properties. (3) You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. (4) You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of an sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf — you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly. You may not, however, "borrow" a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand, or staff.

If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. If you use a holy symbol, you break your Vow and suffer all the consequences.

[Heliomance]

So does that mean that if you pick up a stone or a stick off the ground and hold onto it for a round, you immediately break your Vow and lose all benefits?

[Curmudgeon]

So does that mean that if you pick up a stone or a stick off the ground and hold onto it for a round, you immediately break your Vow and lose all benefits?
No, for two reasons:

You would have to own or use a possession. If they're unowned (valueless debris) and you only hold (rather than use) them, there's no violation.
You can own and use simple weapons: sling stones and clubs.

[Flickerdart]

You can own and use simple weapons: sling stones and clubs.

That's not a wand, it's an improvised club!

[Gadora]

No, for two reasons:

You would have to own or use a possession. If they're unowned (valueless debris) and you only hold (rather than use) them, there's no violation.
You can own and use simple weapons: sling stones and clubs.


Chairs, however, are not on the list. Please be careful where you sit.

[Flickerdart]

Chairs, however, are not on the list. Please be careful where you sit.
A chair is the first thing I'd use for an improvised club.

[Gavinfoxx]

never mind

[Vertharrad]

A holy symbol is not a magic item or masterwork item...it's a focus. So no just picking up a wooden holy symbol should not be a problem. Yes the list is extremely limited, but it makes no sense to be that limited. Especially if ou have to pay for a room at the end of the day...goning to need the coinage to do so. I have no problem using most of RAW, just this part doesn't make much sense, especially hen the feat doesn't indicate it favors certain classes by having particular prereqs.

[Heliomance]

No, for two reasons:

You would have to own or use a possession. If they're unowned (valueless debris) and you only hold (rather than use) them, there's no violation.
You can own and use simple weapons: sling stones and clubs.


Very well. How about if you pick up a random stick and use it as improvised thieves' tools to pick a lock with?

[Jeff the Green]

Very well. How about if you pick up a random stick and use it as improvised thieves' tools to pick a lock with?

Is it made of material? Is it not on the list? Are you using it? If yes to all three, you've violated your vow.

[sideswipe]

A holy symbol is not a magic item or masterwork item...it's a focus. So no just picking up a wooden holy symbol should not be a problem. Yes the list is extremely limited, but it makes no sense to be that limited. Especially if ou have to pay for a room at the end of the day...goning to need the coinage to do so. I have no problem using most of RAW, just this part doesn't make much sense, especially hen the feat doesn't indicate it favors certain classes by having particular prereqs.

you are playing a character that have vowed never to own anything or carry gold. to live a life based on the charity of others. and giving what you earn as donations to the poor and less able then you. and you are confused that you are not allowed to own gold to pay to stay in an inn, get a nice breakfast and other such things?

the feat may interact better with certain classes then others. but just because if one were dumb enough to play a VOP wizard doesn't mean they have to child proof the feat to tell them not to. anyone can forsake lifes luxuries.

for example. i don't believe you need to be able to cast spells to take metamagic feats. they have no prerequisites, and a fighter could take them. do you have the same opinion towards feats like that? that they should have prerequisites that state the type of class that would benefit the most from them? or do you believe that one would read them and understand them before making a selection.

[gorilla-turtle]

From what I have read, and from what I understand, the Book of Exalted Deeds probably is not meant to be taken directly as is writen. Coming at it from a RAW standpoint entirely divorced from the minds and opinions of the DM at hand is probably asking for trouble. And the writers themselves acknowledge this in the introduction of the book, before talking about any of the material within:

"This book carries a warning because we’re relying on you to deal with your own reactions to this material in a mature manner: use what you like, adapt what doesn’t fit, and simply ignore what you don’t like."

Additionally, the one prestige class in the book that uses Vow of Poverty, the Apostle of Peace, not only gains the ability to turn undead if the base character entering it could not, it also stacks with Cleric for the sake of turning undead.

It seems the book is not as well written as it could be because it seems it is being left up to the players, group, and dungeon master, to decide what is right and what is not themselves. Whether or not that makes it a terrible book or not is a different matter of opinion.

In my own opinion, and I believe the op knows why my opinion is relevant, neither summoning a holy symbol from a spell for the sake of turning undead, nor using a basic wooden holy symbol as a focus (particularly if a 5 gp spell component pouch is allowed to be used, in comparison to a 1 gp piece of wood) should at all void Vow of Poverty.