[PF/DSP] Where the Wilder Things Are: The Pathfinder Wilder

[Novawurmson]

The Link (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bb4KrtEGyJ0mWkPdMC7_wXiSrZOUibk4GL32aidD1WM/edit?usp=sharing)

This is a guide to the Dreamscarred Press Pathfinder update for the Wilder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder). It's a solid class for people who want to just be really good a few things (often blasting large bits of things or people into smaller bits of things or people).

It's not 100% done, but no optimization guide I've ever made is 100% done, so by now, you've probably learned to deal with that about me if you're willing to give this guide a shot. It is possibly the most complete guide I've written to date, with my Barbarian and Aegis guides being the main contenders. However, I think it's now at a stage where it can help people build their characters, even if it does have room to grow. The next major update will probably be in the powers section.

Enjoy!

Edit: And of course I forget to actually link the thing -_-

[Canine]

Gave it a skim, looks very nice! I might suggest coloring the names of each Surge type, for a quick ranking system. Will you be adding in some discussion of prestige classes and the Ultimate Psionics change as to how their wild surge works with a prestige class?

[Psyren]

Dang, you beat me to it! I wanted to do Wilder :smallbiggrin:

I think you're heavily undervaluing Warrior's Surge. Sure you lose HP when you enervate, but you gain HP when you experience euphoria too - i.e. most of the time you actually take no penalty at all, because you lose exactly as much HP as you gain. (i.e. you gain 5 HP at 5, and lost 5 HP at 5. You gain 10 at 9, and lose 9., for a net of 1. You gain 15 at 13, and lose 13, for a net of +2 etc.) Also, if you don't need to move or focus, Staggered has no penalties either (and once you get Schism, you can use your second mind to focus even while staggered.) Best of all, you don't lose any PP. In other words, a Warrior Wilder can surge every single round basically for free because when they enervate, they simply lose the temp HP they had gotten from surging euphoria in the first place.

[grarrrg]

Edit: And of course I forget to actually link the thing -_-

HIGH FIVE!

And no one would have noticed if you didn't point it out yourself...

[Novawurmson]

Gave it a skim, looks very nice! I might suggest coloring the names of each Surge type, for a quick ranking system.

Thanks! I'll consider it. I may just rank them in the beginning, but there's a tangle. Each surge type is good under a specific set of circumstances, so you kind of need to read over each one to see if it applies to your situation and preferences. That being said, student's surge (for manifesting focus) and raging surge (for melee focus) are almost always the best.


Will you be adding in some discussion of prestige classes and the Ultimate Psionics change as to how their wild surge works with a prestige class?

Uugh, yeah, I should probably include that. I was thinking of making a series of prestige class mini-guides (similar to the metaforge mini-guide in the Aegis guide), but I should at least include a discussion of the changes and a few suggestions. Something that popped in to my mind while typing this up: Contemplative Wilder Dark Tempest. Super wisdom focused!


Dang, you beat me to it! I wanted to do Wilder :smallbiggrin:

:D Feel free to make suggestions or even another wilder guide. More guides=more choices, more opinions, and better discussion of the pros and cons for players and GMs.


I think you're heavily undervaluing Warrior's Surge. Sure you lose HP when you enervate, but you gain HP when you experience euphoria too - i.e. most of the time you actually take no penalty at all, because you lose exactly as much HP as you gain. (i.e. you gain 5 HP at 5, and lost 5 HP at 5. You gain 10 at 9, and lose 9., for a net of 1. You gain 15 at 13, and lose 13, for a net of +2 etc.)

Yeah, but you're just breaking even. Compare that with Raging Surge - when you're raging, you get +4 Con (i.e. +2 HP per HD), AND you can manifest Vigor with no overlap to eat up the damage if you enervate.


Also, if you don't need to move or focus, Staggered has no penalties either (and once you get Schism, you can use your second mind to focus even while staggered.)

That's a big if, especially for a melee wilder, but I can see your point. Schism definitely needs to be on the list of suggestions for Expanded Knowledge, too - thanks!


Best of all, you don't lose any PP. In other words, a Warrior Wilder can surge every single round basically for free because when they enervate, they simply lose the temp HP they had gotten from surging euphoria in the first place.

Nope. Surging Euphoria doesn't trigger when you enervate, so unless you get off a successful manifestation between each enervation (which is very likely, to be fair), you're taking damage. Despite my reservations, you're quite right about being able to spam wild surge, and I've upgraded it significantly in the guide. It's a good low-risk, moderate-reward surge.


HIGH FIVE!

And no one would have noticed if you didn't point it out yourself...

Eh, I figured it would amuse people. :D

[Psyren]

:D Feel free to make suggestions or even another wilder guide. More guides=more choices, more opinions, and better discussion of the pros and cons for players and GMs.

Nah, I hate overlapping. If I ever get around to one it'll be way down the road, I'd rather help with yours now that I know you have one.


That's a big if, especially for a melee wilder, but I can see your point.

My point is that, despite the name, you actually don't have to be a melee wilder to use this surge at all. That's the trap I fell into when I first rated it way back in the day, until I thought about it more.


Yeah, but you're just breaking even. Compare that with Raging Surge - when you're raging, you get +4 Con (i.e. +2 HP per HD), AND you can manifest Vigor with no overlap to eat up the damage if you enervate.

Raging Surge has several disadvantages though:
- It's bonus HP, not temp HP, i.e. it's not lost first. Coming out of a rage at low HP (for any reason) can kill you.
- You can only surge while raging. Out of rage rounds for the day? Tough. Fatigued/exhausted? Tough. Sleep spell? Tough. Etc.
- You can manifest while raging, but you actually still can't use mental skills or concentrate as written. That means you can't gain psionic focus, any powers that require concentration are out, no knowledge checks, no spellcraft, no UMD... hell, you might even autofail your concentration check if you get hit by something while manifesting. I don't need to tell you how big a problem that is.
- Sure you can manifest Vigor, but that requires either a wasted buffing round or Quicken Power. The Warrior's Surge gets temp HP for free.



Nope. Surging Euphoria doesn't trigger when you enervate, so unless you get off a successful manifestation between each enervation (which is very likely, to be fair), you're taking damage. Despite my reservations, you're quite right about being able to spam wild surge, and I've upgraded it significantly in the guide. It's a good low-risk, moderate-reward surge.

As you noted, it's a 15% chance, so it's very unlikely that you won't have temp HP active when you enervate.

[Novawurmson]

Nah, I hate overlapping. If I ever get around to one it'll be way down the road, I'd rather help with yours now that I know you have one.

Yeah, getting guides for the other classes together (poor Dread) and revising existing guides for Ultimate Psionics takes precedence. Plus, you've already helped make this guide better!


My point is that, despite the name, you actually don't have to be a melee wilder to use this surge at all. That's the trap I fell into when I first rated it way back in the day, until I thought about it more.

Hah, I just wrote that almost word for word on the guide.


Raging Surge has several disadvantages though:
- It's bonus HP, not temp HP, i.e. it's not lost first. Coming out of a rage at low HP (for any reason) can kill you.
- You can only surge while raging. Out of rage rounds for the day? Tough. Fatigued/exhausted? Tough. Sleep spell? Tough. Etc.
- You can manifest while raging, but you actually still can't use mental skills or concentrate as written. That means you can't gain psionic focus, any powers that require concentration are out, no knowledge checks, no spellcraft, no UMD... hell, you might even autofail your concentration check if you get hit by something while manifesting. I don't need to tell you how big a problem that is.
- Sure you can manifest Vigor, but that requires either a wasted buffing round or Quicken Power. The Warrior's Surge gets temp HP for free.

Yup. I still feel like the huge database of rage powers - i.e. pounce, large boosts to CMB, etc. - the fact that Paizo isn't going to stop publishing them any time soon, the Str, Con, and Will save boosts, and the complete lack of a action economy hit are a better base for most melee wilders. Of course, it's all comparing apples to oranges. They're both great choices for different situations.

That's actually one of the things that impressed me about the surge types after looking over them for a little bit - they're all workable for different situations.


As you noted, it's a 15% chance, so it's very unlikely that you won't have temp HP active when you enervate.

Yup. RNG is the bane of players, though. It will happen over the course of a sufficiently long campaign (Obviously 15% chance of it happening on the first manifestation, with a 2.25% probability of happening in the first and second round of combat, with about 250 encounters over the course of a 1-20 campaign...which I think is a 99.7% of the double-enervation happening? Drops to like 92% of happening eventually if you have Circle of the Sheltered Mind? 42.9% chance of three enervations in a row happening at least once over the course of a 250 enounter campaign. Whatever. I'm overthinking this, and I'm not very good at probability).

[Psyren]

@ Warrior: Even if it happens on the first round - so what? You've got d8, free Toughness, decent Con since you only need 1 stat etc. I still think it's trivial at best.

@ Raging: Unable to concentrate is huge. You can now no longer manifest at all in a grapple, not even to escape. Someone can interrupt your manifesting with a toothpick. You can't even manifest defensively, because that requires concentration too. Raging surge is a colossal trap as written. The fact that its geared at melee wilders makes it even worse.

[classy one]

Honestly, I don't like the fact that PF felt the need to power the wilder up. The wilder was tier 2 to begin with, this variant just feels like it's catering to people who don't know how to play them. It honestly feels more like a wilder for dummies. Untapped Potential had the most broken racial feature that eliminated being stunned from ennervation.

Wilder was just really good. Why all changes?

Which wilder is stronger? I'd say the XPH one since it can recharge its PP while the PF one can't.

[Novawurmson]

@ Raging: Unable to concentrate is huge. You can now no longer manifest at all in a grapple, not even to escape. Someone can interrupt your manifesting with a toothpick. You can't even manifest defensively, because that requires concentration too. Raging surge is a colossal trap as written. The fact that its geared at melee wilders makes it even worse.

Being unable to concentrate is important, and I don't want to minimize that, but you shouldn't be manifesting in melee range as a melee wilder. You should be focusing on buffing powers before entering the fray, then diving in and/or picking up swift action powers (i.e. inevitable strike) that are never going to require concentration anyway. Once you're already in combat, your best standard/full round action is almost always going to be attacking, possibly improved with a rage power.

For the grapple example, a manifesting-focused wilder might want to manifest slip the bonds and run - a melee-focused wilder wants to manifest claws of the beast and make a full attack or use Strength Surge to avoid the grapple or escape the grapple. A manifesting-focused wilder would drop a defensive buff on himself if he finds himself in a dangerous situation; a melee-focused wilder knows he's going to be in a dangerous situation, and shapes his strategies around it.

[Psyren]

Which wilder is stronger? I'd say the XPH one since it can recharge its PP while the PF one can't.

All the 3.5 classes are stronger if you bust out sufficient cheese, even the Monk. But the point of PF/DSP design is so that you don't need to use crap like that to make the class viable.

The PF Wilder functions much better as a "pick up and play" class - that was their goal and they nailed it.

[Novawurmson]

All the 3.5 classes are stronger if you bust out sufficient cheese, even the Monk. But the point of PF/DSP design is so that you don't need to use crap like that to make the class viable.

The PF Wilder functions much better as a "pick up and play" class - that was their goal and they nailed it.

I'd agree. It's the same thing as the Pathfinder Barbarian. Player's Handbook vs. Core Rulebook, the Pathfinder Barbarian is "powered up." With all sources, the 3.5 Barbarian gets pounce from level 1, Shock Trooper, etc. and is far more powerful. The 3.5 eldritch knight gets its BAB +16 and 9th level spells, but the Magus is easier to pick up and play.

On the DSP side, the 3.5 Psychic Warrior has King of Smack, while the PF Psychic Warrior is just a fun, competent class 1-20.

As far as the Wilder being tier 2...there's an argument to be made, but I feel like tier 3 fits it far better. It doesn't have anywhere near the flexibility of the sorcerer and psion - it's a lot closer to the beguiler and other fixed-list casters.

[Saidoro]

- You can only surge while raging. Out of rage rounds for the day? Tough. Fatigued/exhausted? Tough. Sleep spell? Tough. Etc.
Here's the thing, every melee wilder on the face of the planet has Inevitable Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/i/inevitable-strike) and past low levels they're surging for a single power point with it every single round. Raging Surgers don't ever actually run out of rage rounds.

Speaking of, I'd probably rate the melee wilder at blue, mostly because of this little tidbit in wild surge:

The wilder can expend her psionic focus to manifest a psionic power without expending any power points, powering the manifestation with only her wild surge. She manifests this power as if all power points were paid by her wild surge ability. This results in the power being manifested as if the base power point cost of the power was paid, along with augmentation equal to her wild surge amount, but she may not augment the power beyond the amount of her wild surge, and when checking for psychic enervation, the chance to be overcome doubles to 30%. A wilder must wait 10 minutes after wild surging in this fashion before she can do so again.
At low levels, this is an extra power every fight. Wildsurged inevitable strike + wildsurged Power Channeled (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/power-channeler-psionic) dissipating touch is very nearly an automatic kill against almost any level appropriate foe, and you can do it three times per day if your fights are at least ten minutes apart from one another.
At level 6-7ish its true power starts to come online when you pick up Body Adjustment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/b/body-adjustment). This allows any wilder whose surge costs hitpoints(I prefer raging surge) to heal up the damage from an enervated surge(along with any other damage they take) for free. If there's a vitalist in the party you can heal the entire group this way. As a side effect, if you have any powers with a duration of 10 minutes per level or longer you can keep those powers active at all times by manifesting them for free and then body adjusting the pain away. At higher levels you can pick up extend power and a second psionic focus and start using this to maintain minute per level powers as well.

@ Raging: Unable to concentrate is huge. You can now no longer manifest at all in a grapple, not even to escape. Someone can interrupt your manifesting with a toothpick. You can't even manifest defensively, because that requires concentration too. Raging surge is a colossal trap as written. The fact that its geared at melee wilders makes it even worse.
So here's something interesting I just learned. Rage doesn't remove the ability to manifest powers. It remove the ability to concentrate, and then the "To manifest a power, you must concentrate" line from the powers section removes the ability to manifest powers. So either raging surge doesn't actually grant the ability to manifest powers in a rage because poorly written RAW means that can manifest in a rage bit is entirely meaningless and interacts with rules that don't exist or raging surge actually grants you the ability to concentrate on powers in a rage. So yes, you can make concentration checks while raging. (Alternate stupid reading: it removes the need to concentrate on powers while raging so you don't need to make concentration checks.)

[Metahuman1]

So, out of curiosity, what Tier would you Peg the wilder as for Pathfinder? Around low to middle range of Tier 3?

[Novawurmson]

So, out of curiosity, what Tier would you Peg the wilder as for Pathfinder? Around low to middle range of Tier 3?

Middle tier 3. It's weaker at low levels than a lot of other tier 3s (the magus, for example, can rock its socks at level 1-2), but it's more powerful at high levels than a lot of other tier 3s (hello, reality revision). It can do several things very well, but it's hard for it to break the game without really trying hard.

[Psyren]

Here's the thing, every melee wilder on the face of the planet has Inevitable Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/i/inevitable-strike) and past low levels they're surging for a single power point with it every single round. Raging Surgers don't ever actually run out of rage rounds.

You'll have to explain this to me, because I don't see how you can "power a manifestation with your wild surge" if you are incapable of surging (i.e. not raging.) So a raging wilder can't do this unless he is raging, any more than a Pain wilder can do this unless he has taken damage.



At low levels, this is an extra power every fight. Wildsurged inevitable strike + wildsurged Power Channeled (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/power-channeler-psionic) dissipating touch is very nearly an automatic kill against almost any level appropriate foe, and you can do it three times per day if your fights are at least ten minutes apart from one another.

Channeled DT is going to do at most +6d6 extra damage (at level 19) if powered this way, which is less than even a single sneak attack. I highly doubt it will autokill anything level appropriate.

As for the Body Adjustment thing, what you seem to be forgetting is that the Warrior Surge doesn't have to heal at all at levels 5, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, and 17+. Outside of those levels it will lose at most 3-4HP per enervation, an average of less than 1HP per round. In exchange for this they basically get +1-+6 ML for free.



So here's something interesting I just learned. Rage doesn't remove the ability to manifest powers. It remove the ability to concentrate, and then the "To manifest a power, you must concentrate" line from the powers section removes the ability to manifest powers. So either raging surge doesn't actually grant the ability to manifest powers in a rage because poorly written RAW means that can manifest in a rage bit is entirely meaningless and interacts with rules that don't exist or raging surge actually grants you the ability to concentrate on powers in a rage. So yes, you can make concentration checks while raging. (Alternate stupid reading: it removes the need to concentrate on powers while raging so you don't need to make concentration checks.)

You missed situation 3: it lets you manifest just fine, but you still can't make concentration checks when they are called for. Normally you don't have to make a concentration check to manifest so this doesn't come up, but you do if you are (a) trying to manifest on the defensive, (b) take damage while manifesting (e.g. someone AoOs you or you're bleeding), (c) are trying to manifest in unstable conditions like bad weather or a bumpy ship-ride at sea, and (d) are trying to manifest in a grapple. In those situations, as written you will autofail the check, because you can't concentrate at all while raging.

EDIT: I also disagree Nova, I think they're high T3 at the lowest. I'd say they're really no weaker at low levels than a low level sorcerer or psion is. You just have to be careful with their power selection.

[Saidoro]

You'll have to explain this to me, because I don't see how you can "power a manifestation with your wild surge" if you are incapable of surging (i.e. not raging.) So a raging wilder can't do this unless he is raging, any more than a Pain wilder can do this unless he has taken damage.

Wild Surge and Psychic enervation: A raging wilder unleashes pure, raw rage to boost her psionic power. A raging wilder cannot invoke wild surge unless in a rage, but any time a raging wilder manifests a power and uses wild surge, that round does not count toward her number of rounds per day she may rage. When the raging wilder suffers psychic enervation, she loses hit points equal to her normal manifester level (the increase in manifester level from her wild surge does not increase the number of hit points lost).
You are spending a single power point to manifest inevitable strike and then wild surging it. That is something the wilder will be able to do all day long past low levels. So no, they don't run out of rage rounds.

Channeled DT is going to do at most +6d6 extra damage (at level 19) if powered this way, which is less than even a single sneak attack. I highly doubt it will autokill anything level appropriate.
I said at low levels for that one. Say a first level human wilder taking extra power known and power channeler as their feats and inevitable strike and dissipating touch as their powers. They'll have a 7+str attack bonus and deal 2d6+weapon+strength damage on a hit. That will kill almost any level-appropriate enemy more often than not.

As for the Body Adjustment thing, what you seem to be forgetting is that the Warrior Surge doesn't have to heal at all at levels 5, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, and 17+. Outside of those levels it will lose at most 3-4HP per enervation, an average of less than 1HP per round. In exchange for this they basically get +1-+6 ML for free.
Free manifestations have to be done ten minute apart from one another. Warrior Surge temp HP doesn't last that long. It really doesn't matter which surge you choose so long as it's one of the hit point ones for the purpose of this trick, you can use warrior surge if you want, I just like raging surge more.

You missed situation 3: it lets you manifest just fine, but you still can't make concentration checks when they are called for. Normally you don't have to make a concentration check to manifest so this doesn't come up, but you do if you are (a) trying to manifest on the defensive, (b) take damage while manifesting (e.g. someone AoOs you or you're bleeding), (c) are trying to manifest in unstable conditions like bad weather or a bumpy ship-ride at sea, and (d) are trying to manifest in a grapple. In those situations, as written you will autofail the check, because you can't concentrate at all while raging.
How is the wilder able to concentrate but not able to make concentration checks? What is the difference between concentrating and making a concentration check? Remember, being unable to manifest without concentration is separate from raging. Your version requires parsing " you gain the ability to manifest while in a rage" as "you gain the ability to concentrate on powers while raging put automatically fail concentration checks and cannot maintain concentration on powers". Mine only requires parsing it as "you gain the ability to concentrate on powers while raging," which is rather simpler.

[Psyren]

You are spending a single power point to manifest inevitable strike and then wild surging it. That is something the wilder will be able to do all day long past low levels. So no, they don't run out of rage rounds.

That eats your swift though - meaning no quickened powers or immediate powers unless you want to start losing rage rounds. This is a good trick to extend it but you can still run out.



I said at low levels for that one.

Ah, missed that. It's a nice trick at low levels but doesn't scale very well.


Free manifestations have to be done ten minute apart from one another.

No they don't. Your temp HP will continually refresh; you can do this every round.

I'm not saying Raging Surge is bad, but I personally prefer Warrior.



How is the wilder able to concentrate but not able to make concentration checks? What is the difference between concentrating and making a concentration check?

*shrug* Hell if I know. But the exemption is only on manifesting, it says nothing about concentrating. "You gain the rage class feature, as the barbarian, except as follows." So you can manifest, but not concentrate, as written.



Remember, being unable to manifest without concentration is separate from raging. Your version requires parsing " you gain the ability to manifest while in a rage" as "you gain the ability to concentrate on powers while raging put automatically fail concentration checks and cannot maintain concentration on powers". Mine only requires parsing it as "you gain the ability to concentrate on powers while raging," which is rather simpler.

Actually , I'm parsing it as "you can manifest powers, despite not being able to concentrate." That's plenty simple. Concentrating on a power you've already manifested is not the same as manifesting a power, nor is making a concentration check to keep your manifestation from being disrupted.

This might be something for them to errata, I'm just pointing out the RAW.

[stack]

Probably best to take it to the DSP boards. They seem good about answering this kind of thing.

[classy one]

All the 3.5 classes are stronger if you bust out sufficient cheese, even the Monk. But the point of PF/DSP design is so that you don't need to use crap like that to make the class viable.

The PF Wilder functions much better as a "pick up and play" class - that was their goal and they nailed it.

I'll admit a bit of conceit, I liked that the OG wilder was hard to play. I liked that it was a class to master to play well. I liked that I was rewarded for my thoughtfulness when others dismissed it outright due to psychic ennervation. It was like the Dark Souls of psionic classes.

PF did make it more accessible but in many ways nerfed its charm.

[Psyren]

Probably best to take it to the DSP boards. They seem good about answering this kind of thing.

Jeremy has an account here too, though Nova is of course welcome to do so.


I'll admit a bit of conceit, I liked that the OG wilder was hard to play. I liked that it was a class to master to play well. I liked that I was rewarded for my thoughtfulness when others dismissed it outright due to psychic ennervation. It was like the Dark Souls of psionic classes.

PF did make it more accessible but in many ways nerfed its charm.

I don't consider things like recharging PP to be "mastery." They're cheese, plain and simple. They remove the meaningful limitation that PP are meant to represent.

Yeah it's fun to gab about them on forums (hell, I contributed several of these to the psionic tricks thread) or use them in extremely lethal/high-power campaigns, but those are also the kinds of things that perpetuate the godawful "psyoniks r b0rked!!" meme when people try to spring them on an unsuspecting DM.

[Saidoro]

That eats your swift though - meaning no quickened powers or immediate powers unless you want to start losing rage rounds. This is a good trick to extend it but you can still run out.
If you aren't wild-surging inevitable strike with your swift it's because you're wild-surging something else with your swift.

Ah, missed that. It's a nice trick at low levels but doesn't scale very well.
Doesn't need to, it's solid up to level three or four without increasing your power point consumption at all so you're spending those levels gaining quite a bit of added endurance. After that you can start using tricks with more staying power.

No they don't. Your temp HP will continually refresh; you can do this every round.
I think I may have miscommunicated, we seem to be talking about different things. I was specifically talking about the wilder's ability to expend their psionic focus to manifest a power without paying its power point cost, which can be done once every ten minutes. For the purpose of that specific trick, the warrior surge does not offer an advantage over the raging surge.

I'm not saying Raging Surge is bad, but I personally prefer Warrior.And that's fine. For what it's worth, you have caused me to reevaluate warrior's surge as an option for casting wilders. I'd previously thought student's surge was an uncontested best for that category.

Actually , I'm parsing it as "you can manifest powers, despite not being able to concentrate." That's plenty simple. Concentrating on a power you've already manifested is not the same as manifesting a power, nor is making a concentration check to keep your manifestation from being disrupted.

This might be something for them to errata, I'm just pointing out the RAW.
The thing is, when I see your parsing what I get from it is that you don't need to make concentration checks, you can just automatically do whatever the check would normally have been required for. You don't need to concentrate, so there's no point in making checks to see if you can do so just as you don't need to make balance checks when standing in an open field and even if you fail one nothing bad happens. (And I think the RAW may actually be that raging surgers can't manifest while raging because they can't concentrate. It's just that using the RAW when it's that obviously contrary to any possible RAI is kind dumb.) This should probably be taken to the DSP boards...

[classy one]

Jeremy has an account here too, though Nova is of course welcome to do so.



I don't consider things like recharging PP to be "mastery." They're cheese, plain and simple. They remove the meaningful limitation that PP are meant to represent.

Yeah it's fun to gab about them on forums (hell, I contributed several of these to the psionic tricks thread) or use them in extremely lethal/high-power campaigns, but those are also the kinds of things that perpetuate the godawful "psyoniks r b0rked!!" meme when people try to spring them on an unsuspecting DM.
PP recharge is...meh. Wilders have higher effective pool than any manifester thanks to the free PP provided by wild surge. I have never even picked bestow power because wild surge is so efficient at conserving PP (and the fact that wilders don't have that many powers to begin with). According to the math bestow power and hence the recharge trick are more detrimental than helpful (provided you only have 3-4 encounters a day).

To play an effective wilder all you need are: vigor, share power, a blasting power (one with no save, good scaling damage), a higher level blasting power, a save or die, schism and metamorphosis. All else is extra.

Calling an effective tactic "cheese" is subjective anyway. This PF wilder does seem fun and all but lacks focus. All those different types of surges? Not a fan in terms of fluff tbh.

[classy one]

Just a broader question: what can you include in building a wilder for PF? Are othe dsp material open? What about from WotC? Or are is this PF sources only?

Something like quick recovery (found in LoM) can greatly mitigate the risks of ennervation of the more risky surges, but if they are not in your guide should it be assumed they are off limits?

[Tulya]

Is my reading correct in that a Blasting Wilder with the Warping surge type can make use of their own warping field effect to boost their manifester level? The warping field bonus progresses at the same pace as Wild Surge with a 2 level delay, so it seems like all you'd be suffering is:
* No free PP augmentation from the manifester level bonus.
* Doubled risk of psychic enervation while manifesting warped powers.
* No manifester level benefit to powers from Surge Crystal - just surge blast.
* The warping effect does not progress from prestige class levels.
* The aforementioned 2 level delay in manifester bonus beyond +1.

Edit: Which is not to say those losses don't pose a meaningful trade-off, especially if you don't have other manifesters in your party to benefit from the warping field. Rather, I'm wondering if that's correct.

Double Edit: Also, does Perfect Blast retain the "adds one die of damage to her surge blast for each point of the wild surge" because you're wild surging? That is, does a naked Blasting Wilder make 3 iteratives with Surge Blast at 6d6 or 12d6 each?

[Novawurmson]

Just a broader question: what can you include in building a wilder for PF? Are othe dsp material open? What about from WotC? Or are is this PF sources only?

Something like quick recovery (found in LoM) can greatly mitigate the risks of ennervation of the more risky surges, but if they are not in your guide should it be assumed they are off limits?

I'm assuming Ultimate Psionics for now, with the possibility of other DSP Pathfinder material later. Obviously, it's up to your DM/GM. I personally play a stew of 3.5+PF+3rd Party+Homebrew, so I would allow a player to pick up a 3.5 feat with proper scrutiny. However, whenever I write a guide, I try to stick as close as possible to RAW and the most current and available sources.

[Tulya]

Do Wild Surge types that don't increase your manifester level for powers manifested from your powers known still grant the benefits of the full wild surge value when manifesting for free by expending psionic focus?

For example, can an Efficient Surge Wilder with a +6 Wild Surge expend their psionic focus to manifest Psychic Reformation for 13 points (base 7 + 6 from surge)?

Also, what manifester level is a power manifested in that way equal to? Is it equal to normal manifester level + wild surge, or minimum manifester level to manifest the power + wild surge, or some other value?
Edit: That is, while it's obvious that a 7th level Wilder with a +3 surge manifesting Vigor for free should get +20 temporary HP, it's not as obvious whether Vigor lasts for 10 minutes (class + surge), 7 minutes (class), or 4 minutes (minimum + surge).

[Novawurmson]

Do Wild Surge types that don't increase your manifester level for powers manifested from your powers known still grant the benefits of the full wild surge value when manifesting for free by expending psionic focus?

For example, can an Efficient Surge Wilder with a +6 Wild Surge expend their psionic focus to manifest Psychic Reformation for 13 points (base 7 + 6 from surge)?

First, let me say that for official answers, the best place to ask is the DSP Pathfinder forums (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewforum/f=2.html). Jeremy and Andreas are usually pretty good about giving a definitive answer.

As a GM, I would probably rule that it works that way - otherwise, the efficient surge is significantly worse at the build-in PP efficiency ability the baseline wilder gets. I think it should still be limited to your manifester level, though (i.e. 1st level efficient wilder who expends psionic focus still casts at a maximum of manifester level 1; actually, I think 1st level is the only point at which this might apply).


Also, what manifester level is a power manifested in that way equal to? Is it equal to normal manifester level + wild surge, or minimum manifester level to manifest the power + wild surge, or some other value?
Edit: That is, while it's obvious that a 7th level Wilder with a +3 surge manifesting Vigor for free should get +20 temporary HP, it's not as obvious whether Vigor lasts for 10 minutes (class + surge), 7 minutes (class), or 4 minutes (minimum + surge).

I'm fairly certain it would function at your normal manifester level. You're never increasing your manifester level with a wild surge that explicitly doesn't increase your manifester level, but you're never decreasing your manifester level. A power always functions at your manifester level (as altered by class features, items, feats, etc.), regardless of the amount of PP you spend on it.

[GhorrinRedblade]

Hi there,

This guide keeps getting better. The campaign in which I was going to use a wilder got put on hold, so I've got time to prep. :)

One question I've got pertains to that Circlet of the Sheltered Mind, which reduces enervation chance by 5%, to 10%. When you do your every-10-minutes surges, the chance of enervation doubles to 30%. Is there a definitive ruling on how the math works for that with the circlet? Is it 1) (15*2)-5=25%, or 2) (15-5)*2=20%? Either one is good, but this is clearly a case where less is more. :)

Later on,
Ghorrin

[Mostlymad]

For Dipping, as manifesting Wilder I'd add Crossblood Draconic/Orc Sorc with the Wildblood Mage feat to get up to +3 Damage per Dice (if you go fire or cold energy).


Some other fun things I've manage to build while applying to a Pathfinder PVP game:

Level 12 Human Wilder (Student Surge): An Astral Construct Build where my wilder could create a Huge, 9th level Astral Construct (19 rounds or use extend spell feat to have it last 34). The AC will have 2 Level C powers plus 1 with the Boost Construct Feat.

Once created I could Manifest Hidden Body to hide inside the AC but still be able to manifest, and then use Shared Power to Metamorphosis the Astral Construct making it a colossal AC amongst other things. Continuing to use shared power you could get a lot of buffs on the AC.

Feats I used:
H: Boost Construct
1: Enervation Fortitude
3: Psicrystal Containment
5: Psionic Meditation
7: Quicken Power
9: Shared Power
11: Expanded Knowledge: Hidden Body
W1: Psicrystal Affinity
W5: Expanded Knowledge: Astral Construct
W9: Expanded Knowledge: Metamorphosis

Powers Selected:
1:Entangling Ectoplasm
1:Inertial Armor
2:Biofeedback
3:Dispel Psionics
4:Slip the Bonds
5:Pierce the Veils
6:Temporal Acceleration
HB1:Ecto Protection
HB3:Touchsight
HB5:Power Resistance
EK1:Astral Construct
EK3:Metamorphosis
EK4: Hidden Body

Anyone see any glaring issues?

[Mostlymad]

Mad's Human Wilder 'Melting Faces/Freezing Asses' Build




LevelClassBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SavePowers Known(Spells)FeatsClass FeaturesEquipment .5WBLFull WBLMax ML w/ Energy RaySurge Dmg [Range] w/ Energy Ray /Empowered


1stWilder (Student Surge)
+0
+0
+0
+21:Energy RayH:Improved Initiative, Empower Power, Psicrystal AffinityWild surge +1, psychic enervation, surge blast
-
-
3/3 3d6+3[6-21]


2ndXBlood Sorc [Orc/Draconic (White/Silver-Ice)or(Red/Brass/Gold-Fire)]
+0
+0
+0
+4S1:Shield S1: S1: Eschew MaterialsCantrips, Bloodline (Arcana/Power), Spells
-
-
3/33d6+3[6-21]

3rdWilder (Student Surge)
+1
+0
+0
+51:Inevitable StrikeWildblood MageElude attack (+1)
-
Psicrystal Staff
5/55d6+15[20-45]

4thWilder (Student Surge)
+2
+1
+1
+5
-
-Wild surge +2
Psicrystal Staff
Psicrystal Staff
7/77d6+21[29-63]/(5d6+15)*1.5[29-67]

5thWilder (Student Surge)
+3
+1
+1
+6HR1:Vigor, 2:Detect Hostile IntentFavored Energy (Cold/Fire)Surging euphoria +1
Psicrystal Staff
Psicrystal Staff
8/88d6+32[40-80]/(6d6+24)*1.5[45-90]

6thWilder (Student Surge)
+3
+1
+1
+6EK1:Untouchable AuraExpanded Knowledge: Untouchable AuraImproved Surge Bond: Expanded Knowledge
Psicrystal Staff
Surge Crystal (+1ML)
9/10(7d6+28)*1.5[52-105]/(8d6+32)*1.5[60-120]

7thWilder (Student Surge)
+4
+2
+2
+73:Energy BurstPsionic MeditationElude attack (+2)
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)
Psicrystal Staff+Surge Crystal(+1ML)
11/11(9d6+36)*1.5[67-135]

8thWilder (Student Surge)
+5
+2
+2
+7
-
-Wild surge +3
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal (+1ML)
Psicrystal Staff+Surge Crystal (+2ML)
14/14(12d6+48)*1.5[90-180]

9thWilder (Student Surge)
+6/+1
+2
+2
+8HR3: Dispel Psionics, 4: 3-Energy WallPsicrystal Containment
-
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal (+1ML)
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal(+2ML)
15/16(13d6+52)*1.5[97-195]/ (14d6+56)*1.5[105-210]


10th
Wilder (Student Surge)

+6/+1
+3
+3
+8
EK3:2-Energy Missile
Expanded Knowledge: Energy Missile
Improved Surge Bond: Expanded Knowledge

Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal (+2ML)
Surge Crystal(+3ML)

17/17
(15d6+60)*1.5[112-225]


11th
Wilder (Student Surge)
+7/+2+3+3+9
5:
New Feat
Elude attack (+3)

Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal (+2ML)
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal(+3ML)
18/19
(16d6+64)*1.5[120-240]/ (17d6+68)*1.5[127-255]


12th
Wilder (Student Surge)
+8/+3+3+3+9

-

-
Wild surge +4

Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal (+2ML)
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal(+3ML)
20/21
(18d6+72)*1.5[135-270]/ (19d6+76)*1.5[142-285]


13th
Wilder (Student Surge)
+9/+4+4+4+10
HR5: , 6:
New Feat
Surging euphoria +2

Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal (+3ML)
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal(+3ML)
22/22
WIP


14th
Wilder (Student Surge)
+9/+4+4+4+10
EK:5
Expanded Knowledge:
Improved Surge Bond: Expanded Knowledge

Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal (+3ML)
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal(+3ML)
23/23
WIP


15th
Wilder (Student Surge)
+10/+5+4+4+11
7:
New Feat
Elude attack (+4)

Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal (+3ML)
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal(+3ML)
24/24
WIP


16th
Wilder (Student Surge)
+11/+6/+1+5+5+11

-

-
Wild surge +5

Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal (+3ML)
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal(+3ML)
26/26
WIP


17th
Wilder (Student Surge)
+12/+7/+2+5+5+12
HR:7 , 8:
New Feat

-

Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal (+3ML)
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal(+3ML)
27/27
WIP


18th
Wilder (Student Surge)
+12/+7/+2+5+5+12
EK:7Expanded Knowledge:
Improved Surge Bond: Expanded Knowledge

Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal (+3ML)
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal(+3ML)
28/28
WIP


19th
Wilder (Student Surge)
+13/+8/+3+6+6+139:
New Feat
Elude attack (+5)

Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal (+3ML)
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal(+3ML)
29/29
WIP


20th
Wilder (Student Surge)
+14/+9/+4+6+6+13

-

-
Wild surge +6

Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal (+3ML)
Psicrystal Staff+Setting Stone of Invigoration(ML+1)+Surge Crystal(+3ML)
31/31
WIP



WIP for a Fire/Cold Blaster Build.

Feel free to comment as I continue to update this.

Any place you feel I could improve please let me know (Especially in the spells/powers selections).

[Tulya]

The Healing Surge Wilder is extremely efficient in low-to-mid level psionic parties since Shared Power was buffed in Ultimate Psionics. With no extra pp cost, you can surge out 7 HP (6 + 1 from surge bond) for 1.15 average pp (1 + 15% chance of 1 pp enervation) starting at 1st level (6.09 HP/PP), and the efficiency scales up with your surge. (11/1.45 = 7.58 HP/PP at 3rd, 15/2.05 = 7.32 HP/PP at 7th, 19/2.2 = 8.64 at 8th with +1 surge crystal; better ratios with Enervation Fortitude)

More importantly, it's the only option to provide renewable healing to a psionic party without a Vitalist, other than an Egoist doing the same thing with much less efficiency. Otherwise, psionic parties lack any alternatives until about 5th-7th level, when nearly every manifesting class gains access to some form of healing power. Edit: I forgot the Battle Medic Tactician archetype, but it's not especially good. It can't redirect healing, instead healing allies through Transfer Wounds, and its healing only exceeds 3 hp/pp efficiency when the Tactician has suffered lethal damage in addition to transferred nonlethal damage.

If you're starting play as at least a 5th level Wilder, though, you can take Expanded Knowledge (Natural Healing) normally, and the miniscule extra healing from Healing Surge's surge bond isn't worth losing Student Surge's benefits.

[Novawurmson]

The Healing Surge Wilder is extremely efficient in low-to-mid level psionic parties since Shared Power was buffed in Ultimate Psionics. With no extra pp cost, you can surge out 7 HP (6 + 1 from surge bond) for 1.15 average pp (1 + 15% chance of 1 pp enervation) starting at 1st level (6.09 HP/PP), and the efficiency scales up with your surge. (11/1.45 = 7.58 HP/PP at 3rd, 15/2.05 = 7.32 HP/PP at 7th, 19/2.2 = 8.64 at 8th with +1 surge crystal; better ratios with Enervation Fortitude)

Interesting point, and added to the document. There is a new psionic healer in town, though - a Zealot (PoW+Psionics class in playtesting) with the Creation mission gets a few healing abilities.

[Tulya]

Somehow, I never noticed that Unlocked Talent received errata (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=979.html) changing the requirements from "Wild Talent" to "Wild Talent or Naturally Psionic". Additionally, unlike Hidden Talent from 3.5, Unlocked Talent is not restricted to psionic class power lists. Instead, you can grab any first level power.

This is a significant benefit to Wilders, since they aren't otherwise able to grab 1st level powers from disciplines or other class lists until 5th level. Additionally, it opens up the possibility of taking Psigifted as one of your starting traits for that power, which has a prerequisite of needing to know the power you choose.

This means you can manifest Astral Construct at ml 3 (1 base + 1 trait + 1 surge) up to four times per day at 1st level: 2 pp per manifestation (+1 paid by surge), with 8 pp per day (2 base + 2 racial psionic talent + 2 unlocked talent + 2 bonus from 18-20 Cha).

A Shaper can't manage even manage three 2nd level constructs without Overchannel and a second copy of Psionic Talent or Unlocked Talent + 1 pp from favored class: 3 pp per manifestation, 9 pp per day (2 base + 5 psionic talent + 2 bonus from 18-20 Int).

I don't know that you necessarily want to be manifesting nothing but a single construct every encounter of the day, but it's a potent option regardless.