Possible way to time travel using Genesis?

[6thEdition]

So, I was thinking, couldn't a wizard make a demiplane using Genesis, at which time flows at the rate of -1 second/second? Therefore, spending 6 seconds there means -6 seconds have happened in the Ethereal Plane, and when the wizard gets back, it would have been the previous round!

The question is, is this possible? I don't want to do it in any game or anything like that, it's just hypothetical.

[Somensjev]

off the top of my head i can't think of anything that specifically says you can't

of course, that's very shaky footing..

someone with more experience than i will probably come along soon and explain why it doesn't work

[Sith_Happens]

I don't know of any existing time trait that allows it, so I'm leaning towards no.

[Zanos]

I don't know of any existing time trait that allows it, so I'm leaning towards no.
Agreed.

Genesis creates a plane, and something has to set the planar traits since nothing says that the plane defaults to the traits of the material plane. So it's reasonable that you can set the time traits, but the only traits I know of are Normal, Flowing, Erratic, and Timeless, none of which allow time to go backwards.

You could just teleport through time (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b), though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That genesis can even create a demiplane with a time trait other than normal time is questionable at best. That a time trait like you've described even exists is pure homebrew.

There are two methods to long-range time travel that are definitely workable in RAW.

The teleport through time spell in a web article on the WotC website is one. It's a 9th level that has a rare, absurdly difficult to acquire, and expensive material component.

The other is to enter the temporal plane and travel against the current. Even gaining entrance to the plane is difficult at best, basically you have to find a naturally occurring temporal anomaly and go from there without being subjected to the anomaly's effects, and then you have to move against the vicious and erosive winds, something that even colossal fliers would find very difficult.

Time travel is -not- supposed to be easy and dealing with paradoxes is -not- fun.

[6thEdition]

What about the Flowing Time Trait? -1 second/second is still slower than 1 second/second, after all. :smallbiggrin:

This is kind of a bad argument, I guess.

[Crake]

Yeah, unless you're talking from a purely theoretical point, this is just something you'll have to talk about with your DM

[Kelb_Panthera]

What about the Flowing Time Trait? -1 second/second is still slower than 1 second/second, after all. :smallbiggrin:

This is kind of a bad argument, I guess.

None of the tables or entries that exist for the flowing time trait actually have that particular ratio.

If you can't point to a page in a book and/or have to make something up to use it, it's homebrew.

[Vaz]

It's hard to substantiate; we're all technically travelling through time, just at a rate of 1s/1s.

Dealing with theory, that -1s/1s plane is moving against a plane that's moving at 1s/1s.

If we use the "common" high level tactic to get fast spellslot regeneration by moving to these fast time planes, then rather than 8hours (420mins) is becomes 42 mins; effectively leading to a ton of spell slots. However, only 42 mins have passed on the 1s/1s plane, so its actually a useable tactic.

If we use this interpretation, then no.

If the time plane was -1s/1s, then travelling to it would have an extremely odd occurence; you'd teleport there, then as 1 second ago, you weren't there, you wouldn't exist, but as the other plane was still advancing, you wouldn't actually exist on that 1s/1s plane either; you'd write yourself into the Astral Plane, or wherever you go when you teleport.

[Heliomance]

The teleport through time spell in a web article on the WotC website is one. It's a 9th level that has a rare, absurdly difficult to acquire, and expensive material component.

...that component does not have a listed gold cost. Eschew Materials works just fine.

Also, amusingly, their definition of "disturbed" doesn't prohibit using skeletons to do anything you like to the soil, as long as you don't put it in a portable container, and it'll still be pristine.

Also also, if I was in charge of a wizards' tower and we had that spell, the very first thing I would do would be go back as far as I could possibly manage, cast Genesis, and create a demiplane full of nothing but pristine soil with flowers growing in it for as far as the eye can see. Then I'd return to my own time. Voila, a near-enough limitless source of flowers growing in undisturbed soil.

[Emperor Tippy]

...that component does not have a listed gold cost. Eschew Materials works just fine.

Also, amusingly, their definition of "disturbed" doesn't prohibit using skeletons to do anything you like to the soil, as long as you don't put it in a portable container, and it'll still be pristine.

Also also, if I was in charge of a wizards' tower and we had that spell, the very first thing I would do would be go back as far as I could possibly manage, cast Genesis, and create a demiplane full of nothing but pristine soil with flowers growing in it for as far as the eye can see. Then I'd return to my own time. Voila, a near-enough limitless source of flowers growing in undisturbed soil.
Shapechange -> Zodar -> Wish -> Scroll or just being epic and taking Ignore Material Components; never worry about it again.

The hilarious thing is that you can actually natively cast Teleport Through Time with no material component at ECL 10.

Ah the joys and fun to be had playing around with a time manipulating Ardent.

Persistent Favor of the Martyr + Twin Power, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, Repeat Power, Greater Celerity. For all of the actions. Four Full Round actions as an immediate action at the start of the loop and then Twelve Full Round actions for no cost the next turn. Do it again and you keep getting 16 Full Round actions per turn, all for the total cost of your immediate actions.

So with your normal actions you get 17 rounds of actions in one round.

As with everything else, casters are just better than you.

[Heliomance]

Slightly off topic, but Tippy, why do you never mention Shaedlings as a way to get your scrolls, or any other item you fancy?

[Emperor Tippy]

Slightly off topic, but Tippy, why do you never mention Shaedlings as a way to get your scrolls, or any other item you fancy?

Because it would be wrong and frowned upon and only horrible evil roll players would ever even think of doing so. :smallwink:

EDIT: More seriously because the RAW of doing that is iffy and debatable and I tend to prefer using tricks that are as clear cut RAW legal as possible, and the Zodar trick is 100% unquestionably RAW legal.

[(Un)Inspired]

What about the Flowing Time Trait? -1 second/second is still slower than 1 second/second, after all. :smallbiggrin:


Is that actually true...

[Flickerdart]

What about the Flowing Time Trait? -1 second/second is still slower than 1 second/second, after all. :smallbiggrin:

This is kind of a bad argument, I guess.

No it's not. The speed of both time streams is 1 second per second, it's just that one has a different vector.

[Dr. Azkur]

Funnily, time goes on the same way everywhere in the universe, no matter the plane. The "Time" trait of each plane is not actually concerned with time, it is concerned with... let's call them "Timelike Effects" (Edit: Effects attributed to the passage of time). Correct me if I'm wrong but when you go to a Timeless plane and spend a year there, when you go back you don't appear at the exact same point in time in which you left, you appear a year later (because a year passed), but you haven't aged a bit.
Likewise in a -1sec/1sec plane you would get younger and younger (maybe even start losing knowledge, but that's pure fluff with no mechanical support).

That's how I read it anyways.

EDIT:

So, I was thinking, couldn't a wizard make a demiplane using Genesis, at which time flows at the rate of -1 second/second? Therefore, spending 6 seconds there means -6 seconds have happened in the Ethereal Plane, and when the wizard gets back, it would have been the previous round!

Small sidenote, in case it worked that way, you'd have to spend 12 seconds there, since casting the spell to get back costs you a turn. In that example you'd be back at the same round you left.

EDIT 2: If you went to a plane with truly no passage of time, you'd be stuck there forever, since energy doesn't change, matter doesn't vibrate, things don't actually happen. To go there you'd have to put on something such as a spell that puts you in a 1sec/1sec bubble, and in that case you'd find yourself in an environment akin to that cause by Timestop. It gets even weirder if you go to a reversed time plane.

[Heliomance]

Because it would be wrong and frowned upon and only horrible evil roll players would ever even think of doing so. :smallwink:

EDIT: More seriously because the RAW of doing that is iffy and debatable and I tend to prefer using tricks that are as clear cut RAW legal as possible, and the Zodar trick is 100% unquestionably RAW legal.

Pickford proves that it is possible to question it :smallwink:

How is the Shaedling trick not unquestionably RAW legal? It says you can create an item, and does not in any way prohibit it from being a magic item. RAI is just as clear cut and it's obviously not supposed to let you create magic items, but by strict RAW there's absolutely nothing to prevent you.


Funnily, time goes on the same way everywhere in the universe, no matter the plane. The "Time" trait of each plane is not actually concerned with time, it is concerned with... let's call them "Timelike Effects" (Edit: Effects attributed to the passage of time). Correct me if I'm wrong but when you go to a Timeless plane and spend a year there, when you go back you don't appear at the exact same point in time in which you left, you appear a year later (because a year passed), but you haven't aged a bit.

Timeless is different from flowing time though. If you go to a plane with 12x faster time and spend a year there, when you go back you appear a month later than when you left.

[Emperor Tippy]

Pickford proves that it is possible to question it :smallwink:
Well that is Pickford, and that's all that needs to be said on that topic.


How is the Shaedling trick not unquestionably RAW legal? It says you can create an item, and does not in any way prohibit it from being a magic item. RAI is just as clear cut and it's obviously not supposed to let you create magic items, but by strict RAW there's absolutely nothing to prevent you.
It doesn't say that you can make a magical item.

[Heliomance]

No, it just says "item" with no qualifiers. Magic items are still items.

[Lord Vukodlak]

off the top of my head i can't think of anything that specifically says you can't

of course, that's very shaky footing..

someone with more experience than i will probably come along soon and explain why it doesn't work

Much of what people do with genesis is on shaky footing

[Gemini476]

No, it just says "item" with no qualifiers. Magic items are still items.

That get's into "there's nothing in the rules that says I can't do it" territory, though.

Compared to something like the Zodar's Su Wish, where the only iffy thing is whether or not you turn into the same Zodar every time and thus keep the 1/year limit.
(You probably don't, and I suspect that either way losing an ability and then regaining it resets any timers.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

...that component does not have a listed gold cost. Eschew Materials works just fine.

Also, amusingly, their definition of "disturbed" doesn't prohibit using skeletons to do anything you like to the soil, as long as you don't put it in a portable container, and it'll still be pristine.

Also also, if I was in charge of a wizards' tower and we had that spell, the very first thing I would do would be go back as far as I could possibly manage, cast Genesis, and create a demiplane full of nothing but pristine soil with flowers growing in it for as far as the eye can see. Then I'd return to my own time. Voila, a near-enough limitless source of flowers growing in undisturbed soil.

The flower has no listed cost but unguent of timelessness does.


Eschew Materials [General]
Benefit

You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.

If the spell has no costly component you need no component. If it does have a costly component you cast the spell as normal. Teleport through time has a costly component therefore eschew materials does not apply.

[Heliomance]

The flower has no listed cost but unguent of timelessness does.



If the spell has no costly component you need no component. If it does have a costly component you cast the spell as normal. Teleport through time has a costly component therefore eschew materials does not apply.

Yes it does. It has a material component costing 1gp or less (the flower, uncosted). Thus, you can cast it without that component. It also has a material component that costs more than 1gp (the unguent of timelessness). Thus, you must have the unguent of timelessness on hand to cast it.

[6thEdition]

Ok, so if -1/1 isn't slower than 1/1, then what about -2/1? That's definitely slower, right?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ok, so if -1/1 isn't slower than 1/1, then what about -2/1? That's definitely slower, right?

Nope. Faster and on a different vector.

The weird thing about time as a spatial dimension that you're traveling through is when you try to move sideways in time instead of forward or back. I still haven't quite wrapped my head around it.

[Lanaya]

-2/1 would be twice as fast as -1/1. A car going backwards at 30 kilometres an hour is moving faster than one going forwards at 15.

[Flickerdart]

Ok, so if -1/1 isn't slower than 1/1, then what about -2/1? That's definitely slower, right?
Let's say the present is a car, and time is a road. Let New York represent the Big Bang (time α), and Detroit represent the heat death of the universe (time ω). You get into the car, driving at 10 miles per hour from New York to Detroit. At some point you decide to go "hey, I want to travel back in time but faster," do a sweet U-turn on the interstate, and drive at 20 miles per hour back towards New York. You're not going slower just because you're heading back towards where you started.

[Somensjev]

so then, -0.5/1?

if -1/1 is the same speed, and -2/1 is faster, then -0.5/1 would be slower?

[Kelb_Panthera]

so then, -0.5/1?

if -1/1 is the same speed, and -2/1 is faster, then -0.5/1 would be slower?

Yep. But no more so than +0.5:+1

[Chronos]

OK, then, -1/2 second per second is definitely slower. The principle is the same no matter what the exact rate is.

[Heliomance]

However, nothing about the Flowing Time trait allows you to reverse the vector.

[Dr. Azkur]

Timeless is different from flowing time though. If you go to a plane with 12x faster time and spend a year there, when you go back you appear a month later than when you left.

Reading a bit more deeply into it I found that they mixed up both cases quite a bit, and examples are not clear, so responsibility of handling it well and consistently is up to the DM once again. Personally I'd drop the Timelike Effects shenanigan, I really don't see why someone on a "Timeless Plane" shouldn't age or feel no hunger.

[Nettlekid]

That get's into "there's nothing in the rules that says I can't do it" territory, though.


(I know this quote was talking about something else, but it's pertinent to my point.
THERE IS NOTHING THAT SAYS YOU CAN MANIPULATE TIME TRAITS WITH GENESIS.
There is a list of things you can manipulate, and it says things *like* those, which time is...not.

[Gemini476]

(I know this quote was talking about something else, but it's pertinent to my point.
THERE IS NOTHING THAT SAYS YOU CAN MANIPULATE TIME TRAITS WITH GENESIS.
There is a list of things you can manipulate, and it says things *like* those, which time is...not.
Beyond Psionic Genesis explicitly forbidding it (but Arcane Genesis not doing so, thereby allowing it by implication [since why otherwise would it be there?]), there are some other problematic things.

Like the gravity trait. What kind of gravity does the demiplane have? I'm going to assume that it's No Gravity, since it's linked to the Ethereal Plane.

The argument that a 17th level Wizard is unable to "visualize" time flowing slowly is false, however. It's like they haven't seen Time Stop or Celerity or Nerveskitter or even just something like Haste.
I'm not saying that you're implying that, but it really annoys me.

[Emperor Tippy]

(I know this quote was talking about something else, but it's pertinent to my point.
THERE IS NOTHING THAT SAYS YOU CAN MANIPULATE TIME TRAITS WITH GENESIS.
There is a list of things you can manipulate, and it says things *like* those, which time is...not.

Except there is.

1) "The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize."

Time, gravity, and magic are all part of the environment.

2) Manual of the Planes page 153. It's pretty much the rules definition of a demiplane and it specifically lists that they can have any time trait.

Incidentally the Manual of the Planes also says "The clever and the unscrupulous can abuse planes that have flowing time. The ability to step into a slower time flow for the purpose of healing and regaining spells is an effective weapon against others. You'll be back, completely refreshed, before your foes even know you're gone. Throwing opponents into a plane with a faster time flow may keep them out of action for several years and make their return a problem for future generations."

[Nettlekid]

Except there is.

1) "The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize."

Time, gravity, and magic are all part of the environment.

2) Manual of the Planes page 153. It's pretty much the rules definition of a demiplane and it specifically lists that they can have any time trait.

Incidentally the Manual of the Planes also says "The clever and the unscrupulous can abuse planes that have flowing time. The ability to step into a slower time flow for the purpose of healing and regaining spells is an effective weapon against others. You'll be back, completely refreshed, before your foes even know you're gone. Throwing opponents into a plane with a faster time flow may keep them out of action for several years and make their return a problem for future generations."

"You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain."
You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain.

Those are the factors you determine. Atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain are the factors you determine. Factors that are not atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain are not factors that you determine. Time trait is not a factor that you determine. Neither are gravity or magic. If you want to get hyper-pedantic, environment is defined as "the surroundings or conditions in which a person, animal, or plant lives or operates," and as there is no life on the demiplane when you create it, including yourself because you're on the Ethereal Plane, there cannot be an environment because there is no person, animal, or plant living or operating within the demiplane. This is a stupid argument, but if you're arguing RAW letter by letter...

The "environment...reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize" does not give the caster free reign to make the plane anything they want. The spell specifically precludes the ability to create life, even though it would be trivial for a caster to imagine a plane in which the speaking aloud of a noun conjures that noun into existence. Technically this would be a component of the plane, not a part of the spell Genesis, and so the line "this spell cannot create life" doesn't contradict this special plane power. Is this something you can do with Genesis? NO.

Using the demiplane traits listed in Manual of the Planes to define the demiplane created by Genesis is like using a rectangle to define a square. If you say "A square is a rectangle. All rectangles have four sides and four right angles. If a shape has four sides and four right angles, it is a rectangle, and thus must be a square because a square is a rectangle." No. The demiplane created by Genesis follows all the rules that the demiplane part of the Manual of the Planes states must be followed in some capacity to determine the existence of the demiplane. Those rules are what define a rectangle. But there is a subset of rules regarding the specifics of the demiplane that can be created by the spell Genesis. This is the equivalent of the "all the sides must be equal in length" part of the square rule. If you're saying that because the book says that demiplanes of all qualities can exist then you can make demiplanes of all qualities with Genesis because you're making a demiplane period, look at the examples of demiplanes in that book. Can you make Neth with Genesis which can create no life? It's a demiplane, and Genesis makes a demiplane. Can you create the Observatorium with Genesis which cannot create constructions? No. You cannot create a demiplane with any characteristics that the spell Genesis doesn't say you can create. And it doesn't say you can customize the time trait of the demiplane you create.

[Zale]

Beyond Psionic Genesis explicitly forbidding it (but Arcane Genesis not doing so, thereby allowing it by implication [since why otherwise would it be there?]), there are some other problematic things.


So, Fireball also grants you free wishes, right?

Since the spell doesn't explicitly say it doesn't.

The main reason I'm on the Genesis doesn't allow you to alter time traits train is because nothing in the description suggests that you can. And since Psionic Genesis forbids it, I assume that Genesis wasn't meant to allow you to create demi-planes with time traits.

However, if you want to allow Wizards to make abusive time trait demi-planes, far be it from me to stand in your way. Just keep in mind that it's debatable if full support of the rules swings in favor of that interpretation.

[Necroticplague]

So, Fireball also grants you free wishes, right?

Since the spell doesn't explicitly say it doesn't.

There's also nothing that implies it can, or that would allow it to. In this case, we are "allowed" to because the rules for demiplanes do allow for time to move faster or slower. So without an explicit limit on this ability, there is none. It would be more like if Fireball did not specifically give a cap on its damage: it would allow us to use fireballs with as much damage as we can pump our CL up.

[Nettlekid]

There's also nothing that implies it can, or that would allow it to. In this case, we are "allowed" to because the rules for demiplanes do allow for time to move faster or slower. So without an explicit limit on this ability, there is none. It would be more like if Fireball did not specifically give a cap on its damage: it would allow us to use fireballs with as much damage as we can pump our CL up.

SEE MY POST.
Particularly the last part. The rules do support a demiplane being able to have different time traits, but there's nothing in the spell Genesis to support giving it that. A demiplane can have fast time, but a demiplane made by Genesis cannot. To use the Fireball=>Wish parallel, this is a bit like saying that the rules support being able to cast a spell to get a Wish, so in casting a spell (Fireball) you get a Wish.

[Gemini476]

Those are the factors you determine. Atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain are the factors you determine. Factors that are not atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain are not factors that you determine. Time trait is not a factor that you determine. Neither are gravity or magic.

What does the gravity default to, then? It's "No Gravity", right, since that's the gravity on the plane where you cast it (the Ethereal)?

[Captnq]

Okay... I'm the only one who sees the problem?

I'm in normal space 1s:1s Ratio. La-tee-dah.

I go into a -1s/1s plane. Time is going backwards there. The moment I enter, I start going backwards. So for an instant, there are two of me at the threshold to the universe. One going in, One backing out. In effect, I duplicate myself and super impose myself on myself.

Since the D&D univer does occur in discrete units, I might be possible to go back one round this way, but only one round before you reverse yourself and back straight back out again.

By my math, suddenly doubling in mass, but SLIGHTLY out of phase with yourself is a sure fire ticket to... I dunno, death woul dbe kind at that point.

You would need to not make time go -1s:1s, but to reverse the universe for a period of time, keeping a gate connected to the present (which would disappear at some point, due to it reverting back to the time where it had not been created.), Then restarting time in a forward motion.

In effect, it's like taking one end of a wormhole and accellerating it to the speed of light, where as the other end remains still. One end moves forward in time slowly, the other one rapidly. You can only go back in time to the point the wormhole is created, of course, but that's really what you are talking about here.

Also, As a DM. If you made Anti-Time, I'll go all ST:tNG on you and have a space rupture that prevents the creation of the game. So There. :P

[rmnimoc]

environment is defined as "the surroundings or conditions in which a person, animal, or plant lives or operates,"

In what 3.5 book does WotC define enviroment? Cause I don't recall seeing it do so. And if WotC doesn't bother to define it I tend to go with merriam-websters dictionary, and I think time traits fit within the "the conditions that surround someone or something : the conditions and influences that affect the growth, health, progress, etc., of someone or something".

Plus the good old "Exception that proves the rule". If WotC released a similar ability that specifically cannot set time traits, then the lack of errata for genesis shows that either WotC is lazy, or they feel genesis messing with time is cool. Personally I choose to think that they mean what they say, not that they are just too lazy to correct themselves.

And to the OP's actual question: Sadly you'd need Teleport through Time to time travel, because even if genesis could do the whole -1/2 thing you couldn't take advantage of it because you'd be leaving the instant you appeared and all sorts of weird timey-whimy-stuff that would just be a total headache. On that note any temporal shenanigans is just mean to your DM. Be nice to your poor DM and keep the brain bleed inducing scenarios to a minimum.

[Gemini476]

Okay... I'm the only one who sees the problem?

I'm in normal space 1s:1s Ratio. La-tee-dah.

I go into a -1s/1s plane. Time is going backwards there. The moment I enter, I start going backwards. So for an instant, there are two of me at the threshold to the universe. One going in, One backing out. In effect, I duplicate myself and super impose myself on myself.

Since the D&D univer does occur in discrete units, I might be possible to go back one round this way, but only one round before you reverse yourself and back straight back out again.

By my math, suddenly doubling in mass, but SLIGHTLY out of phase with yourself is a sure fire ticket to... I dunno, death woul dbe kind at that point.

You would need to not make time go -1s:1s, but to reverse the universe for a period of time, keeping a gate connected to the present (which would disappear at some point, due to it reverting back to the time where it had not been created.), Then restarting time in a forward motion.

In effect, it's like taking one end of a wormhole and accellerating it to the speed of light, where as the other end remains still. One end moves forward in time slowly, the other one rapidly. You can only go back in time to the point the wormhole is created, of course, but that's really what you are talking about here.

Also, As a DM. If you made Anti-Time, I'll go all ST:tNG on you and have a space rupture that prevents the creation of the game. So There. :P

You do know that time travel is already possibly in D&D, right? Teleport Through Time and Time Hop are already things, as is Forced Dream.

As for how it would work when you Plane Shift into a plane with negative vector on time (which may not work, by the way)? You have one guy inside the plane going backwards in time and one guy outside the plane going forwards in time, but at no point is there someone "in between" when you plane shift - it's Instantaneous. You might get some weird effects with a Gate or Planar Rift/Portal, since you can see from one into another, but you get those anyway with normal Time Traits.

Also, timetravel in D&D lets you change the past. Forced Dream is the most obvious (yet nebulous, since it might be that it WAS ALL A DREAM), but even the article about Teleport Through Time mentions it. Time just fixes itself up a bit: if you kill your grandfather, you come back to find that you had different parents. Basically, you kill Hitler and one of the other Nazis replace him (but history mostly stays the same).

[Bogardan_Mage]

This is tricky to pull off, because it requires both a 9th level spell and a 9th level power (thanks to Psionic Genesis's explicit ban on time traits). It's possible as a team-up, gestalt, or sufficiently optimised Cerebremancer (oh Ardent, you singlehandedly redeem the entirety of Complete Psionic).

Use Arcane Genesis to make a demiplane with Flowing Time 1 round=100 years (or whatever interval you prefer), then manifest Time Regression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm) on the demiplane followed by Quickened Psionic Plane Shift back to the material plane. You've just jumped back 100 years!

[Nettlekid]

What does the gravity default to, then? It's "No Gravity", right, since that's the gravity on the plane where you cast it (the Ethereal)?

Hadn't thought of that, but yeah, I suppose so.


In what 3.5 book does WotC define enviroment? Cause I don't recall seeing it do so. And if WotC doesn't bother to define it I tend to go with merriam-websters dictionary, and I think time traits fit within the "the conditions that surround someone or something : the conditions and influences that affect the growth, health, progress, etc., of someone or something".

Plus the good old "Exception that proves the rule". If WotC released a similar ability that specifically cannot set time traits, then the lack of errata for genesis shows that either WotC is lazy, or they feel genesis messing with time is cool. Personally I choose to think that they mean what they say, not that they are just too lazy to correct themselves.

And to the OP's actual question: Sadly you'd need Teleport through Time to time travel, because even if genesis could do the whole -1/2 thing you couldn't take advantage of it because you'd be leaving the instant you appeared and all sorts of weird timey-whimy-stuff that would just be a total headache. On that note any temporal shenanigans is just mean to your DM. Be nice to your poor DM and keep the brain bleed inducing scenarios to a minimum.

Yes, I was using the definition off of Google. With the definition I found or yours, if we look at the sliver of time when you are on the Ethereal Plane and first cast Genesis, then there is no "thing" within the demiplane growing or progressing (the demiplane itself is, but the spell states the environment within the demiplane, not of the demiplane, thus excluding demiplane as a growing thing affected by its own internal environment by virtue of being on the outside.) And since we're being super-extra-pedantic and trying our very hardest to twist RAW to suit our purposes, the description of the spell which states "You determine the environment within the demiplane when you first cast genesis" could be read to mean that at the moment you cast Genesis, "when you first cast genesis," you determine the environment within the demiplane. In the moment you first cast it, you determine the environment. Every moment after that, you have no control at all. RAW that works. RAW is dumb.

The response to your other remark is that yes, WotC is VERY lazy. Tome of Battle has no errata and Iron Heart Surge direly needs it. I recall some errata for one book that then turned into Complete Mage's errata halfway through, and no one at WotC seemed to notice before it was released. In Tome of Magic, they forgot to add the DCs for the Truenamer's Lexicon of the Perfected Map utterances in the book. WotC screws up all the time. Arcane Genesis appears in the Epic Level Handbook, which is full of outdated 3.0 references like DR/+X weapons, the Scry skill, the non-SR-based magic immunity of Golems, and the mention of partial actions granted by the Haste spell. What say you to the lack of errata on all of those in that book, or other 3.0 material? If a caster under the effect of Shapechange turns into a Brass Golem from MMII, is that caster immune to all magic because 3.0 Golems worked that way? Sure, all 3.5 Golems have the "infinite SR type" magic immunity, but is the Brass Golem the exception which proves the rule and the lack of explicit errata thus implies that it was intended to keep its utter magic immunity? Do you really think that's the case? Or is the ELH's Genesis the equivalent of 3.0 Golem Magic Immunity, and the time-trait line in the XPH's the equivalent of the "spells that allow SR" line in 3.5 Golem Magic Immunity?

[Gemini476]

The response to your other remark is that yes, WotC is VERY lazy. Tome of Battle has no errata and Iron Heart Surge direly needs it. I recall some errata for one book that then turned into Complete Mage's errata halfway through, and no one at WotC seemed to notice before it was released.
Oh, Tome of Battle got Errata. It just turned into Complete Mage's Errata halfway through.

Arcane Genesis appears in the Epic Level Handbook, which is full of outdated 3.0 references
While the ELH got some errata, here's one thing they left that you didn't mention: while the Errata did change some things for the Atropal, it kept it's Regeneration.
On an Undead creature.
Immune to non-lethal.
When Regeneration explicitly turns into Fast Healing for creatures lacking a Con score.

[rmnimoc]

Yes, I was using the definition off of Google. With the definition I found or yours, if we look at the sliver of time when you are on the Ethereal Plane and first cast Genesis, then there is no "thing" within the demiplane growing or progressing (the demiplane itself is, but the spell states the environment within the demiplane, not of the demiplane, thus excluding demiplane as a growing thing affected by its own internal environment by virtue of being on the outside.)

In that case I'll point out that the flow of time in the demiplane is a thing, so since time-traits affect the progress of time, they count as environment.


And since we're being super-extra-pedantic and trying our very hardest to twist RAW to suit our purposes, the description of the spell which states "You determine the environment within the demiplane when you first cast genesis" could be read to mean that at the moment you cast Genesis, "when you first cast genesis," you determine the environment within the demiplane. In the moment you first cast it, you determine the environment. Every moment after that, you have no control at all.

Good thing you don't need control after that, because you already determined it.


Tome of Battle has no errata and Iron Heart Surge direly needs it.

I Iron Heart Surged away the need for errata.


Arcane Genesis appears in the Epic Level Handbook, which is full of outdated 3.0 references like DR/+X weapons, the Scry skill, the non-SR-based magic immunity of Golems, and the mention of partial actions granted by the Haste spell. What say you to the lack of errata on all of those in that book, or other 3.0 material? If a caster under the effect of Shapechange turns into a Brass Golem from MMII, is that caster immune to all magic because 3.0 Golems worked that way? Sure, all 3.5 Golems have the "infinite SR type" magic immunity, but is the Brass Golem the exception which proves the rule and the lack of explicit errata thus implies that it was intended to keep its utter magic immunity? Do you really think that's the case? Or is the ELH's Genesis the equivalent of 3.0 Golem Magic Immunity, and the time-trait line in the XPH's the equivalent of the "spells that allow SR" line in 3.5 Golem Magic Immunity?

Is all that in there without any errata saying otherwise? If so then in that order: Nothing, if that is what is says, yep, yep, and you know what it is called if I say "Wizards, Druids, and Clerics don't get spells, that is just something they forgot to remove from 3.0 because tier one casters are op"? It's called a houserule, which is what saying "the time-trait line is a mistake they never meant to put in there but never removed because they are lazy and I think it can be abused" is. If the rules say that is how it works, that is how it works. Anything else is just a houserule.


While the ELH got some errata, here's one thing they left that you didn't mention: while the Errata did change some things for the Atropal, it kept it's Regeneration.
On an Undead creature.
Immune to non-lethal.
When Regeneration explicitly turns into Fast Healing for creatures lacking a Con score.

That is just because they are scared that if they change it they might upset the Atropal, and because the WotC staff isn't epic leveled.

[Dr. Azkur]

Okay... I'm the only one who sees the problem?

I'm in normal space 1s:1s Ratio. La-tee-dah.

I go into a -1s/1s plane. Time is going backwards there. The moment I enter, I start going backwards. So for an instant, there are two of me at the threshold to the universe. One going in, One backing out. In effect, I duplicate myself and super impose myself on myself.

No you're not the only one. I mentioned a parallel problem in my post, which is what would happen if you entered a truly timeless plane (0sec/sec).

[Gemini476]

That is just because they are scared that if they change it they might upset the Atropal, and because the WotC staff isn't epic leveled.

I prefer Atropus, myself. It's a bit more intimidating, but also actually made for 3.5. They're somewhat similar, come to think of it.

Then again, Epic is broken anyway.

[Nettlekid]

If the rules say that is how it works, that is how it works. Anything else is just a houserule.


Okay, so disregarding the enormous logical fault in using the 3.0 material without 3.5 conversion as you're meant to, in this you've just stated that you cannot manipulate time traits with Genesis, because going back to my original point, there's nothing in the spell which says you can! Atmosphere, water, temperature, shape. Those are the things you can decide upon. Those are what the spell says. Those are the components of the environment to which the spell refers. It does not say you can manipulate time traits, therefore you cannot. If it said you could manipulate time traits, then you could. But the spell does not say you can. Because the rules say that is how it works, that is how it works. Anything else is just a houserule.

[Chronos]

If you can't set the time trait for your plane, then what determines it? You can't just say that you create a plane without any time trait, because every plane has a time trait. The only guidance the spell gives us is the line "The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize.", and time flow is certainly something the spellcaster can visualize. The next sentence doesn't contradict that, because the list of alterable traits starts with "such as", which means that it's an incomplete list. What else is included on the list? Apparently, anything the caster can visualize.

[Gemini476]

Okay, so disregarding the enormous logical fault in using the 3.0 material without 3.5 conversion as you're meant to, in this you've just stated that you cannot manipulate time traits with Genesis, because going back to my original point, there's nothing in the spell which says you can! Atmosphere, water, temperature, shape. Those are the things you can decide upon. Those are what the spell says. Those are the components of the environment to which the spell refers. It does not say you can manipulate time traits, therefore you cannot. If it said you could manipulate time traits, then you could. But the spell does not say you can. Because the rules say that is how it works, that is how it works. Anything else is just a houserule.

If we go by those rules, the only things you can set in your plane are the shape of the terrain (but not the composition of it! Everything is just condensed ethereal vapor and protomatter.), water (No other fluids! Also, no ice or steam, presumably, since they tend to be separate from water.), temperature(what are the limits? Can I introduce limitless energy into the system and brute-force the system? How does this interact with the Atmosphere and Water parameters?), and atmosphere (is this the composition of the atmosphere, the existence of an atmosphere, or both?).

Also, since it says "The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis", does that mean that any further planes you create will have the exact same parameters that you set the first time you cast the spell Genesis?

...I do like that the material component is a crystal sphere, though.

[Nettlekid]

If we go by those rules, the only things you can set in your plane are the shape of the terrain (but not the composition of it! Everything is just condensed ethereal vapor and protomatter.), water (No other fluids! Also, no ice or steam, presumably, since they tend to be separate from water.), temperature(what are the limits? Can I introduce limitless energy into the system and brute-force the system? How does this interact with the Atmosphere and Water parameters?), and atmosphere (is this the composition of the atmosphere, the existence of an atmosphere, or both?).

Also, since it says "The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis", does that mean that any further planes you create will have the exact same parameters that you set the first time you cast the spell Genesis?

...I do like that the material component is a crystal sphere, though.


If the rules say that is how it works, that is how it works. Anything else is just a houserule.

Quote text doesn't count toward message length?

[Gemini476]

If the rules say that is how it works, that is how it works. Anything else is just a houserule.Quote text doesn't count toward message length?
Nope.
I'm not entirely sure where you got that quote from, but alright. (I think it may have been Tippy that quote came from?)

It's true at least, although sometimes a houserule is needed (drown-healing, inescapable drowning, and Monk proficiencies come to mind). This may be one of those cases, although you also get into a strange scenario where it says "such as", meaning that there are more possibly factors. (Using "such as" and then listing all the possible factors is just bad grammar, and I prefer to start from the assumption that WotC knew what they were doing.)
Genesis is one of those things that needs to be (heavily) adjucated by the DM as to how it actually works, like Polymorph Any Object, Dragonwrought Kobolds, or what it means to "threat the coast as a shirt".

What are those additional factors? Well, the only expansion on that matter that I know of would be the Manual of the Planes (and, later, the 3.5 DMG.) That's where you get all those fiddly sliders to mess with Planar Traits.

Let me be honest here: assuming that Genesis defaults to the Material Plane does not work. The Ethereal connects to the Material, yes, but it also connects to the Inner Planes - that is, the Para-Quasi-and just normal Elemental Planes.
Oh, and since you presumably create a demiplane in the Deep Ethereal - that's where the other Demiplanes are, like Ravenloft and (formerly, pre-Die, Vecna, Die!) the Demiplane of Shadow - there is nothing that really connects it to the Material Plane beyond it being your native plane. If you managed to get a Djinni to cast Genesis somehow - I don't know, maybe they lucked out on UMDing a scroll - then would that Demiplane be more similar to the Material or to the Elemental Plane of Fire? If an Ooze Mephit did the same thing, would it not be more akin to the Para-elemental Plane of Ooze?
If you got a being native to the Positive Energy Plane to cast it, would it be positively aligned? After all, that's the default for what that being would visualize.

[rmnimoc]

I'm not entirely sure where you got that quote from, but alright. (I think it may have been Tippy that quote came from?)
I'll take that as complement.

Also, since it says "The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis", does that mean that any further planes you create will have the exact same parameters that you set the first time you cast the spell Genesis?
That reading is a good way to stop people from recreating the universe. :smallfrown:

although sometimes a houserule is needed
I'll totally agree. Iron heart surging away everything may be funny, but it doesn't mesh well with a serious campaign.

Okay, so disregarding the enormous logical fault in using the 3.0 material without 3.5 conversion as you're meant to, in this you've just stated that you cannot manipulate time traits with Genesis, because going back to my original point, there's nothing in the spell which says you can!
It seems rather obvious we won't be agreeing anytime soon, though I'm curious to see the 3.5 conversion you are "meant to" use, because I wasn't aware WotC wrote one, and if you are making one up that is still a house rule.
Alright, well since we won't agree, and the OP's question has been answered, Later.