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HereBeMonsters
2014-01-07, 04:33 AM
Ok so my DM is letting me Homebrew the Warlock a bit as he feels they are way to weak and wants to see if this will give them a bit more power.

First: My Warlock will be knowing all of the Invocations of the tier he can cast. So at level 1 he knows all his Essences, Shapes, and Invocations of the Least type. He has access to the entire list much like a Cleric does.

Second: He is considering moving the 1 Invocation of Level 1 up to 2 or 3 Invocations. Now how this will work with the First change is that these will be the amount I can use per day. So they are like Slots of an Erudite. Once I use an Invocation or Essence its locked in till I do an 8 hour rest.
So at level 1 I might get 3 with a +1 for every level for a total of 22 at level 20.

Third: He is considering making the Eldritch Blast scale more like a spell with it being Caster Level/d6 so at level 1 its 1d6 but at level 20 its 20d6 because as he puts it, that is on average 60 damage a blast and at level 20 there are much more powerful things to be fearing. But this may or may not be allowed for extra attacks granted with better BAB as 120x4 might be enough to actually drop a few beasties. But I need input would using this method work well for multiple attacks a round or would it be a better trade off to go with the normal 10d6 but allow the multiple attacks a round.

Does anyone have any input or advice for us?

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Invocations per Day

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Eldritch blast 1d6, Invocation (Least)| 3

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Detect Magic| 4

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Damage reduction 1/Cold Iron, Eldritch blast 2d6| 5

4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Deceive Item, Imbue Item| 6

5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Eldritch blast 3d6| 7

6th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+5|New Invocation Level (Lesser)| 8

7th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|Damage Reduction 2/cold iron, Eldritch blast 4d6| 9

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+2|
+6|Fiendish Resilience| 10

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+3|
+6|Eldritch blast 5d6| 11

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+3|
+7|Energy Resistance 5| 12

11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+3|
+7|Damage reduction 3/cold iron, Eldritch blast 6d6, New Invocation Level (Greater)| 13

12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+8|-| 14

13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+8|Fiendish resilience 2, Eldritch blast 7d6| 15

14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+4|
+9|Damage reduction 4/ cold iron| 16

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+9|Eldritch blast 8d6| 17

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+10|New Invocation Level (Dark)| 18

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+10|Eldritch blast 9d6| 19

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+11|Fiendish resilience 5| 20

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Eldritch blast 10d6| 21

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Damage reduction 5/ cold iron, Energy Resistance 10| 22[/table]

Amnoriath
2014-01-07, 11:22 AM
Ok so my DM is letting me Homebrew the Warlock a bit as he feels they are way to weak and wants to see if this will give them a bit more power.

First: My Warlock will be knowing all of the Invocations of the tier he can cast. So at level 1 he knows all his Essences, Shapes, and Invocations of the Least type. He has access to the entire list much like a Cleric does.

Second: He is considering moving the 1 Invocation of Level 1 up to 2 or 3 Invocations. Now how this will work with the First change is that these will be the amount I can use per day. So they are like Slots of an Erudite. Once I use an Invocation or Essence its locked in till I do an 8 hour rest.
So at level 1 I might get 3 with a +1 for every level for a total of 22 at level 20.

Third: He is considering making the Eldritch Blast scale more like a spell with it being Caster Level/d6 so at level 1 its 1d6 but at level 20 its 20d6 because as he puts it, that is on average 60 damage a blast and at level 20 there are much more powerful things to be fearing. But this may or may not be allowed for extra attacks granted with better BAB as 120x4 might be enough to actually drop a few beasties. But I need input would using this method work well for multiple attacks a round or would it be a better trade off to go with the normal 10d6 but allow the multiple attacks a round.

Does anyone have any input or advice for us?

Okay, so you are making the Warlock a spell caster? In general I don't like this approach, one of the things that make invokers preferable is their reliability throughout the day. While their set known is limited the player doesn't have to finagle with predicting what would be good for the day. This though makes them non distinct from spell casters. In general you have most of the set backs of a prepared caster except there isn't magic items to spread your slots.
I wouldn't make a flat 20d6 especially with the Eldritch Glaive as it smells of hellfire warlock, naebrius, legacy champion devastation without the hoops. 10d6 is better and is about the average damage of a normal magic weapon while being a touch attack. I would offer an essence to double it but it becomes a standard action.

Zman
2014-01-07, 11:38 AM
I really don't like that approach. At Will Invocations is really what makes the Warlock different than spellcasters. Making them a kind of crappy Spontaneous casters doesn't sit right with me.

You could try one of the hosts of Fixes available online. Here is the one I did. Zman's Warlock Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14522195&postcount=1)

HereBeMonsters
2014-01-07, 12:01 PM
Ok so somehow giving them access to all their invocations somehow makes them spellcasters?

So giving them 1 invocation at level 1 makes them Warlocks, giving them 3 still ok by most standards, but give them three and the ability to choose from any of their invocations a day and it makes them spellcasters?

So what turns you on to the Warlock is the ability to use all of their KNOWN invocations at will at any time. But having to select which invocations they want to use per day is too much like a psionic and spellcaster for you?

All I hear is how few options the Warlock gets throughout and how all of their invocations are rather weak even as at wills. So I am not seeing how this doesn't make them generally more useful and powerful giving them the ability to say

Slot 1 -
Slot 2 -
Slot 3 -
Style of system
So say I am staying at a castle trying to talk a king into financing our latest journey so when I wake up I fill slot 1 with Beguiling Influence but leave slot 2 and 3 empty till I need them.

Now say I need to see in the dark and everyone but me has Darkvision so I select in slot 2 See the Unseen which allows me Darkvision for 24 hours.

Later I decide to rest and sleep for 8 hours, I now have slot 1 and 2 open again but See the Unseen is still in effect till the 24 hour buff wears off same with Beguiling Influence buff.

This allows you to stack different buffs for at least a little bit of time.

Zman
2014-01-07, 12:19 PM
Ok so somehow giving them access to all their invocations somehow makes them spellcasters?

So giving them 1 invocation at level 1 makes them Warlocks, giving them 3 still ok by most standards, but give them three and the ability to choose from any of their invocations a day and it makes them spellcasters?

So what turns you on to the Warlock is the ability to use all of their KNOWN invocations at will at any time. But having to select which invocations they want to use per day is too much like a psionic and spellcaster for you?

All I hear is how few options the Warlock gets throughout and how all of their invocations are rather weak even as at wills. So I am not seeing how this doesn't make them generally more useful and powerful giving them the ability to say

Slot 1 -
Slot 2 -
Slot 3 -
Style of system
So say I am staying at a castle trying to talk a king into financing our latest journey so when I wake up I fill slot 1 with Beguiling Influence but leave slot 2 and 3 empty till I need them.

Now say I need to see in the dark and everyone but me has Darkvision so I select in slot 2 See the Unseen which allows me Darkvision for 24 hours.

Later I decide to rest and sleep for 8 hours, I now have slot 1 and 2 open again but See the Unseen is still in effect till the 24 hour buff wears off same with Beguiling Influence buff.

This allows you to stack different buffs for at least a little bit of time.

Your Original Post made them sound like Spontaneous Spellcasters, you were not clear that they have a variable daily pool of all invocations to choose from and can still cast them at will.

In that case, its a reasonable fix.

As to the proposed Eldritch Blast fix, a d6/level isn't a very elegant solotion, letting them make iterative attacks is IMO a better solution.

HereBeMonsters
2014-01-07, 12:31 PM
I am sorry I thought it was more clear, but I guess because I understood I didn't take into account that others had no clue.

I agree with that, using them like that would make them work better if I run it at a Rogues SA damage so 10d6 at level 20 rather then the odd 9d6 with the very odd progression.

Anything else you lot can come up with to make it better?
for example Imbue Item comes a little bit late to be useful especially with the advent of the Artificer who gets that system at lvl 1. So should it be moved to an earlier progression to make it useful maybe at the same time as Deceive Item?

HereBeMonsters
2014-01-07, 01:38 PM
I posted a table in my original post, the Invocations Per Day limit means that they have that many slots to use per day to use, once they use an Invocation it locks that Invocation in for their daily use (Till they rest for 8 hours)

Veklim
2014-01-07, 04:57 PM
10D6 damage with iterative attacks is a far better option than 20D6 once a round by far. Balance is better and it makes more damned sense! Also, consider giving them the ability to transfer the Eldritch Blast damage to a weapon for one round with a standard action and a touch. Adds a string if the warlock can imbue the fighter's charge or give the rogue some extra punch. You could progress it to move and then swift if you like, just a thought since any little boost would be nice if you're already tweaking.