eternal blade

[Smorgonoffz]

For a new campaign i decide to try out a Tome of Battle Prc: The eternal blade ( it's a shame it requires to be elve to enter it...) .

The race is the snow elf from frostburn +2 dex -2 cha

the stats are

Str: 16
Dex : 19
Con:14
Int: 15
Sag: 14
Cha: 13


I'd like to know which is the best starting point to enter meet the prerequisites, also since i'm a copletionist i'd like to make the build from level 1 to 20.

Books available: everyone official, dragonlance, no dragon magazine.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, have you considered fire elf? It is -2 con +2 int on top of snow elf.

Fairy Mysteries Initiate will allow you to use your Int to determine HP, and diamond mind will cover your fortitude save easily enough. Dump that con and boost int.

I like Warblade entry. The +10 attack bonus prereq prevents swordsage if you want to complete the class pre-epic. Devoted spirit is great on a warblade base, as you can get heal on demand at high levels.

Really, that leaves a lot of open area in the build.

I like the a greatsword as the weapon focus.

Really the entry reqs are not that rough except you can't take any non full bab classes. A 2 level barbarian dip is a consideration, (whirling frenzy for +Str and AC, and an extra attack and Pounce for charging)

A 2 level paladin dip MAY be an idea, but the -2 cha makes getting Cha to saves less than the ideal idea. You have diamond mind for saves anyway.

[Elric VIII]

For an Eternal Blade, I would probably go with Wood Elf from the MM. Gives you +2 Str and Dex with -2 Con and Int. While Warblade and Eternal Blade have decent Int-synergy, Str is still more important for them.

Other than that, you could dip 1-2 levels of Fighter to pick up some extra feats (including more maneuvers via Martial Study) or Barbarian for Pounce and Rage/Whirling Frenzy.

[Smorgonoffz]

@Fouredged Sword: i was also leaning to 10 warblade levels, i want to get the goodies sooner than later :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:.

Devoted spirit is the feat or the school?

@Elric VIII: the warrior dip is to be considered

these are the "natural stats" without race mod.
Str: 16
Dex : 15
Con:16
Int: 17
Sag: 14
Cha: 15

well the race is elven as it's a mandatory req, whic one i don't know.

Feats: mainly the ones tha focuses on greatsword?, and the one to take a manuver from the crusader?

stormguard warrior seems both cool and strong?

Stance: at 1st level is punishing stance good?
Manuevers: no idea on whic ones are good :P


isn't twf better for an eternal blade?

[Red Fel]

Well, first off, EB requires BAB +10, meaning that you can take it, at the earliest, levels 11-20. If your goal is all EB levels, that means those are your latter ten levels, done.

Your first ten levels, that's the tricky part. And yet, so easy. Go with Warblade. EB is basically an Elf-exclusive "Warblade Plus" class - it tracks with Warblade's Int synergy, and keeps many of the same disciplines. Admittedly, you could also comfortably break into EB with Crusader, but you'd have a harder time catching up on Diamond Mind maneuvers in order to hit that magic number.

So let's say you take a nice, clean Wbl 10/ EB 10 build. When do you hit the sweet spot? Well, for many players, the sweet spot is being able to use the Diamond Mind 9th-level maneuver Time Stands Still with the EB capstone Island in Time and Eternal Training. This, in essence, allows you to perform Time Stands Still, taking two full attack actions, then immediately trigger your next turn, gain a new usage of Time Stands Still, and then do it again.

Good news! A 9th-level maneuver requires an IL of 17. Since this is a pure martial adept build, that means it becomes available as of level 17. And hey! At level 17 you get a new maneuver known! (As a bonus, you also get one at 19. Feel free to take another. I recommend Strike of Perfect Clarity. But you may differ.)

That's a simple build, of course - Wbl 10/ EB 10, with TSS at the top. You could throw in more diversity, adding classes like Swashbuckler if you so choose, but remember that non-martial adept classes only add 1/2 level to IL.

I also like your plan to use Snow Elf. It's a pretty sweet move - Cha is your dump stat anyway. You might consider, however, throwing on a template. For example, Dragonborn is a +0 LA template with a lot of valuable features on it.

[Smorgonoffz]

I also like your plan to use Snow Elf. It's a pretty sweet move - Cha is your dump stat anyway. You might consider, however, throwing on a template. For example, Dragonborn is a +0 LA template with a lot of valuable features on it.

@Red Fel i agree on the dragonborn, but i don't like his aspect. :smallamused::smallamused:

Also: TWF+stormguard+Time Stands Still +Island in Time + Eternal Training seems pretty op!!!

[Red Fel]

@Red Fel i agree on the dragonborn, but i don't like his aspect. :smallamused::smallamused:

Also: TWF+stormguard+Time Stands Still +Island in Time + Eternal Training seems pretty op!!!

Ahh, we're onto feats already?

Yes. A world of yes.

First, as far as the ToB feats that are prereqs to tactical feats, Ironheart Aura is really good. Chances are you'll be in an Iron Heart stance or a Diamond Mind stance at any given time, (even though it's first-level, Punishing Stance never goes out of style, particularly when you're milking your iteratives) so that +2 to all saving throws is pretty sweet.

Second, you're right on target - Stormguard Warrior is the bee's knees. You know the combo - first Time Stands Still, two full attack actions, no damage. Second Time Stands Still, two full attack actions, +5 for each one that hits (which, at level 20, is 4 iteratives x 2 full attacks x 5 damage = +40 damage to each hit, assuming all of your touch attacks hit) +1d6 from Punishing Stance again on each hit. (See why I love Punishing Stance?)

I would also recommend taking Weapon Focus (any) and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (any). The former because it's required for EB. The latter because EWs tend to be pretty great, and as a Warblade, you can swap your EWP for any other EWP. These two feats will basically let you use almost any weapon in the game (except for the rare few that require multiple feats).

Now, if you're willing to complicate your build very slightly, there is one additional option you might want to consider. Instead of Wbl 10/EB 10, you might consider Barb 1/ Wbl 9/ EB 10. You still get your Warblade bonus feat at level 9, and yes, there are some minor adjustments to your progression, but here's the beef - Spirit Lion Totem. The Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, at level 1, loses the usual Fast Movement class feature, and gains Pounce, which enables you to make a full attack action on a charge. Digest that for a moment. Note that this is the Spirit Lion Totem from CC, not the Lion Totem from UA. There's a difference.

As for other feats, Power Attack is (naturally) your bread and butter. You might also consider Leadership, because it's broken. If you combine that with Wild Cohort, you could ride around on a unicorn or something - go nuts. I would also recommend, much later in your build, that you take Martial Study: Shadow Blink, since that maneuver is too good to pass up on, even if it's not native to Warblade or Eternal Blade.

EDIT: One last thought occurs- Weapon Finesse. Weapon Finesse will let you use that racial Dex mod in place of your Str mod, which is great. And there are some impressive EWs that are subject to finesse, such as the Elven Courtblade, which fits an elven character nicely.

[Smorgonoffz]

Red now i'm getting lost a little bit:

Since i'm going to be an elf i won't have a lot of feats(unlike humans), i have to choose my talent's very carefully so that i don't mess up XD.

The only feats set in stone are: Stormguard warrior,Ironheart Aura the twf lineage but the others aren't.

in which order shall i take them?

1 st level feat: ewp elven courtblade even if i'm an elf?,
3
6
9
12
15
18

pS: could you link the stats for the elven courtblade?
also ca i use elven courtblade with twf?

[Fouredged Sword]

I would take Improved Weapon Familiarity instead of EWP. It nets you three weapons in place of 1. May as well take any edge you can get.

[Darrin]

The only feats set in stone are: Stormguard warrior,Ironheart Aura the twf lineage but the others aren't.

in which order shall i take them?


1st) EWP: Elven Courtblade. I'm going to recommend this over Improved Weapon Familiarity, because a Warblade can switch his EWP to any exotic weapon with only 1 hour of practice. This makes it much more flexible than Improved Weapon Familiarity.
3rd) TWF.
5th) Bonus: Combat Reflexes.
6th) Improved TWF.
9th) Stormguard Warrior. Bonus: Ironheart Aura.
12th) Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook) or Robilar's Gambit (PHBII).
15th) Greater TWF.
18th) Martial Study: Mountain Tombstone Strike.

Hmmm. Weapon Finesse didn't really fit in there. If dips are ok, and you're not worried about XP penalties, you can grab Weapon Finesse with a dip into Swashbuckler or Fighter. This could pair up nicely with a dip into Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 for Pounce/Whirling Frenzy. If you do that, though, you'll want to take Martial Stance at 18th level to grab Stance of Alacrity, since your IL won't be high enough to grab it at Eternal Blade 5. If you want to add your Int bonus to damage, Swashbuckler 3/Barbarian 1 just barely squeaks by enough IL to get Time Stands Still at 19. If you don't care for Int to damage, Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2 gets all sorts of goodies (Pounce, Whirling Frenzy, Weapon Finesse, two fighter bonus feats).

If XP penalties are an issue, Dragonborn of Bahumat will add Fighter as a favored class, although it will swap -2 Dex for +2 Con. A Fighter 2 dip lets you grab Weapon Finesse and other fighter bonus feat (Power Attack or Improved Unarmed Strike might be good). Otherwise, try Wood Elf and dip Ranger 2 for TWF, take Weapon Finesse at 3rd.



pS: could you link the stats for the elven courtblade?
also ca i use elven courtblade with twf?

1d10 slashing or piercing damage (M), 18-20/x2 crit, two-handed exotic, finessable, 150 GP, 6 lbs.

You can use a two-handed weapon with TWF if your offhand weapon doesn't involve any hands: armor spikes and unarmed strike, for example. Since there isn't much room for Improved Unarmed Strike (unless you want to dip into Battle Dancer), I'd recommend armor spikes or netcutter spikes (Races of the Wild p. 167). They cost a bit more (200 GP), but you get a +4 circumstance bonus on Strength or Escape Artist checks to get out of nets, webs, or other entangle effects.

If you're looking for more advice on TWF, check out my TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585).

[Red Fel]

I would take Improved Weapon Familiarity instead of EWP. It nets you three weapons in place of 1. May as well take any edge you can get.

IWF is nice for non-Warblades, since it gives you three for one. However, unlike EWP, you can't switch those weapons using the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude ability. By contrast, although EWP only gives you one, Weapon Aptitude means it can be any one, and you can switch it out in a single hour of training.

OP: With regard to the feat progression, look to what Darrin said. I hadn't realized you were going TWF instead of THW, I missed that point. My feat suggestions had assumed you were going two-handed instead of two-weapon, since THW tends to produce higher numbers overall.

If you want to go TWF, definitely go with Darrin's suggestions. Courtblade is probably not the best for you. As a side note, if you're interested in flavor, you might consider the Elven Thinblade or Lightblade. (I don't know how they stack up against some other one-handers you might have been considering.)

[Smorgonoffz]

@ everyone thanks for your effort
@ Darrin: i'll check the handbook asap
@Red fel: I'm open to every opinion, so how would you do a thw warblade eternal warrior? the only thing set in stone for thw "build" is the stormguard warrior feat. Als the weapon finesse would be nice.


i forgot the most important thing, the dm allowed just one flaw.

[Keld Denar]

I like this build. Maybe not the raw power of on listed above, but still neat.

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3429956

Lots of neat SLAs and you have the option of piloting an Airship, assuming your game has them. Sky pirate ahoy!

[Red Fel]

@ everyone thanks for your effort
@ Darrin: i'll check the handbook asap
@Red fel: I'm open to every opinion, so how would you do a thw warblade eternal warrior? the only thing set in stone for thw "build" is the stormguard warrior feat. Als the weapon finesse would be nice.


i forgot the most important thing, the dm allowed just one flaw.

Okay. Let's see. Keeping it simple, I'd go Spirit Lion Totem Barb 1/ Warblade 9/ Eternal Blade 10. (Let's leave out bits like Swashbuckler, useful though they may be.)

With regard to feats, you get 7 normally, plus two bonus feats from Warblade. My suggestions, in no particular order: Weapon Focus (any), EWP (any), Power Attack, Ironheart Aura*, Stormguard Warrior, Weapon Finesse. Note that Ironheart Aura can be one of your Warblade feats, which leaves you with one more Warblade bonus feat and two more regular feats. I'd also want to check to see if the Dex effect of Weapon Finesse overlaps with Power Attack (off the top of my head, I don't remember). I would recommend perhaps some Martial Study feats, like Shadow Blink or Mountain Tombstone as Darrin suggested. Maybe a Shape Soulmeld feat if you feel creative.

Maneuvers and stances I leave up to you. I strongly recommend Punishing Stance, which will become your bread and butter, as mentioned above. Note that by adding a level of Barbarian, you reach Eternal Blade 7 at IL 16.5, which means you don't get a 9th-level maneuver then; you only get one at EB 9 (level 19).

I'd add more, but I have to run. Chew this over in the meantime.

[Smorgonoffz]

Is Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian from Ua?

[Darrin]

Is Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian from Ua?

No, that's from Complete Champion. Trade Fast Movement for Pounce.

Whirling Frenzy is from Unearthed Arcana. That's a rage variant where instead of jerking you around with "fake extra HP", you get an extra attack when raging. Very handy for TWF/Stormguard Warrior stuff.

A dip into Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 goes best with another 1-level dip, such as Swashbuckler 1 or Fighter 1. If you do this before you take Warblade 4, this slows down your Initiator Level a bit so you can pick up a 3rd level stance at Warblade 4 (however, Punishing Stance and Leading the Charge are probably more useful than most of your 3rd level stances). You wouldn't get a Warblade 9 bonus feat, but you get another bonus feat from Swashbuckler/Fighter.

Does your group play with multiclass XP penalties? Are you amenable/opposed to dipping 2 non-martial adept classes, or maybe 4?

[Keld Denar]

Also, Courtblades are 2 handed. Thinblades are 1handed. Lightblades are...you guessed it, light. I'd recommend elven lightblades if you want to TWF. I'd actually recommend shortswords or kukiris if you want to TWF, to save a feat, but if you insist, that's your best option.

You can't TWF with Courtblades unless you are Diapsid or 'Kreen.

[Metahuman1]

I'd nab an Elven Cort blade, and I'd put Fire Elf on top of Snow Elf or Grey Elf myself.

Might look hard at taking Faerie Mysteries Initiate and Keen Intellect.

A custom Affiliation to get Motivate Int Aura and the Brains over Brawn's ability's would also be worth a look.

With that done, you should also only need Str of about 13 or so to qualify for Power Attack and you can focus almost exclusively on Dex and Int.

Now, level break down.

Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 6/ Crusader 1/ Eternal Blade 10.

Crusader gives you a nice place to stick Mountain Hammer and grab some of the Gems form White Raven and Devoted Spirit, including self healing. This also means you can really focus those Warblade Maneuvers on Diamond Mind and Iron Hearts good stuff. Swashbuckler keeps your BAB full and nets you Int to Damage that stacks with Eternal Blade, on a set up that let's you heavily focus on In, and get's you weapons Finesse, on a set up that also allows focus on Dex and still doesn't cost you two handed power attacking goodness.

[Smorgonoffz]

we aren't playing with the penalties, but for me dipping in one class is ok dipping in more not. Anyway i'll post something when i've digested all the info.

[Red Fel]

Okay, back for more. With regard to those extra slots, and as per Darrin's earlier suggestion, I would probably suggest Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit. Why? Because Stormguard Warrior. Any opponent who attacks you provokes AoOs, of which you have plenty. You can forego those AoOs and, pursuant to Stormguard Warrior, unload on that opponent in the next round. This is a fine choice for TWF or THW, either/or.

Basically, since you say you want to make Stormguard Warrior your build staple, it's all about optimizing around it. That means increasing your AoOs and maximizing your iterative attacks. A Dex-based Warblade/EBlade build can do both of those things. Further, as Darrin correctly observes, Whirling Frenzy is pretty useful, even from just a one-level dip, as an OSB.

And so far, I might add, all of this is without flaws. If you had to take one, I might suggest Pride of Arms (or Elven Pride of Arms), which basically precludes you from being unarmed or, in the case of the latter, limits you to "elven" weapons. But, frankly, I don't play with flaws, and I don't think you need to either, to pull this off.

[Zweisteine]

Get a fullblade! It's like a greatsword, but bigger (2d8 damage!)!

I happen to have recently stared an adventure with a Snow Elf Warblade (future Eternal Blade). I'm aiming to THF, though I see the benefits of TWFing as well (I don't have enough maneuvers to spare for Tiger Claw).

Worst part of TWFing for an Eternal Blade is that the class doesn't get Tiger Claw, which explicitly focuses on it quite a bit (not sure if it's great, though).

I would recommend these as first level maneuvers: Steel Wind (iron wart strike), Moment of Perfect Mind (diamond mind counter), and Sapphire Nightmare Blade (diamond mind strike). As a stance, get Punishing Stance. It's hard to bet for a good long while. Of course, your preferences for style and disciplines may be completely different from mine, so these could be bad choices (except the stance).

As for top-level maneuvers and stances, you want Stance of Alacrity, Time Stands Still, and Mountain Tombsone Strike (IMO). Those first two are great reasons to focus on Diamond Mind (especially if you start at higher levels).

Also, don't forget that strength goes to damage, so dumping it is probably not so great.

Ask your DM if you can continue retraining maneuvers after entering Eternal Blade. That removes non-negligible weakness in your build. If
You the retraining methods from Unearthed Arcana for other class stuff/skills/feats, ask if that may apply at all to maneuvers (perhaps allowing ou to retrain an extra maneuver, but not to a higher-level one).

[Smorgonoffz]

Now ye shall now the truth: i'd love to be thw usr, but there are already two in my groupa barbarian and a fighter/warrior.

[Fouredged Sword]

It really should be considered for a warblade though. You are going to be making a lot of single attacks, and TWFing won't aid that in any way.

I would suggest if you TWF, you do so with a greatsword and armor spikes, or with a quarterstaff.

I have a soft spot for the quarterstaff myself. It qualifies for greater mighty wallop, can be wielded one handed, two handed, and as a double weapon, and can even be finessable if wielded in two hands (you wield it as a double weapon, but only make attacks with the light end).

It can also hold two eternal wands (I am talking about YOU wraithstrike).

Really, it starts off slow, but in the end it is normally better than a greatsword.

[Smorgonoffz]

uhm the old warrior tha fights with th e quarterstaff is a stereotype, but it's also very cool!!!

[Fouredged Sword]

You don't see it very much in gaming groups though. Too many people see staves as a wizard's weapon.

[Smorgonoffz]

It reminds me of the Old master stereotype of martial arts movies.

could a twf warblabe be powerful even if he uses white raven?