Ultimate grappler/brawler

[evilserran]

My character concept is a prideful and some what small (for a goliath) brawler who excels in grappling but can throw punches just as well. I was originally going to go for leaping mauler but i think with the combination of 3 ranger 2 fighter 1monk is fine without it, especially since iam str main build.

My stats are as follows including racial modifiers at level 6,
Str 20 Dex 13 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 8 cha 8
my feats are
Close Quarters fighting, improved grapple (fighter feats)
Deflect arrows (monk)
Two weapon fighting (ranger)
Aberration blood: flexible limbs + reckless offense (from flaws)
clever wrestling, earths embrace and scorpions grasp (1,3,6)

Flaws are frail and feeble (due to "small for a goliath")
Traits are brawler and courageous

He wears a masterwork chainmail and a pair of iron spiked gauntlets for his weapons.

This was the best optimized i could get to excel in brute force/brawler style combat. Does anyone have any ideas to tweak him, make him better? His to hit seems a bit low with +9's when dual wielding (11 when going reckless but armor drops to 14/13/13), but i lost a bab by dipping into monk, tho i needed those feats, and the extra save boost helps the defenses... any thoughts?

Also we are playing E6, so any future feats that should be a must? Obviously weapon focus to increase my hit, but anything else?

[sideswipe]

instead of spiked gauntlets look at scorpion claws from sandstorm page 98.

essentially - gain +4 to grapple checks. can be used in a grapple to deal slashing damage. and you get two of them for your two weapon fighting.

you can also deliver either piercing or slashing damage with them.

these were the icing on my ECL 4 goliaths +20 grapple

[Grek]

As always, the most optimal way to play your character concept is to play a wizard:

Your starting feats are Improved Grapple and Improved Unarmed Strike. Your familiar is an octopus. Your starting spells known are enlarge person, babau slime and true strike. You have a Grapple bonus of +15ish and you do 1d8 acid damage every round you're grappling with someone.

Level three sees you taking fearsome grapple and bladeweave, which make your grapple bonus shoot up to +22ish and forces enemies to make a save vs. being dazed every round you grapple them in addition to being melted by acid.

Level five sees you taking Extend Spell (to save spell slots) and the spells Haste and Fly so that you can properly wrestle dragons to the ground as part of your bid to become the Wizard Wrastling Federation.

[sideswipe]

As always, the most optimal way to play your character concept is to play a wizard:

Your starting feats are Improved Grapple and Improved Unarmed Strike. Your familiar is an octopus. Your starting spells known are enlarge person, babau slime and true strike. You have a Grapple bonus of +15ish and you do 1d8 acid damage every round you're grappling with someone.

Level three sees you taking fearsome grapple and bladeweave, which make your grapple bonus shoot up to +22ish and forces enemies to make a save vs. being dazed every round you grapple them in addition to being melted by acid.

Level five sees you taking Extend Spell (to save spell slots) and the spells Haste and Fly so that you can properly wrestle dragons to the ground as part of your bid to become the Wizard Wrastling Federation.

babau slime is a 3rd level spell. you want to take it at level 1?

[Grek]

The spell compendium version was errata'd to be 1st level.

[Diovid]

I hear good things about the Black Blood Cultist prc from Champions of Ruin and about the Totemist base class from Magic of Incarnum.

Reaping Mauler on the other hand isn't considered to be a very good class. One reason why it's bad is that you have to wait until sixth level to get Improved Grapple, as a grappler. Another reason for this is that grappling greatly benefits from being large while the Clever Wrestling requires you to be small or medium (a way around this is to get 3 levels of the Leviathan Hunter prc but that costs you valuable levels and delays improved grapple even more). Furthermore, the Reaping Mauler's abilities aren't anything special.

One road you could take is something like Barbarbian 5 / Fist of the Forest 2 / Bear Warrior 1 / Warshaper 3 / Bear Warrior +9. Use the Barbarian's bear totem variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures ) and city-brawler variant (Dragon Magazine #349).

Also, read these:

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/2109491
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=585.0

[(Un)Inspired]

Try a psion with telekinetic maneuver, overchannel, grip of iron, schism, twin power, quicken power and solicit psicrystal.

Now you can fire off tons of grapples in one round at huge range and you can maintain a triple grapple using your psicrystal and your schism.

If you need to brawl someone manifest metamorphosis and beat ever monk and fighter at their own game.

[Azoth]

Could always go with Psywar/Slayer with Taslatora feat. That or a Wu Jen Gish to abuse Giant Size and Body outside Body.

[Gwendol]

My character concept is a prideful and some what small (for a goliath) brawler who excels in grappling but can throw punches just as well. I was originally going to go for leaping mauler but i think with the combination of 3 ranger 2 fighter 1monk is fine without it, especially since iam str main build.

My stats are as follows including racial modifiers at level 6, (we rolled)
Str 20 Dex 13 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 8 cha 8
my feats are
Close Quarters fighting, improved grapple (fighter feats)
Deflect arrows (monk)
Two weapon fighting (ranger)
Aberration blood: flexible limbs + reckless offense (from flaws)
clever wrestling, earths embrace and scorpions grasp (1,3,6)

Flaws are frail and feeble (due to "small for a goliath")
Traits are brawler and courageous

He wears a masterwork chainmail and a pair of iron spiked gauntlets for his weapons.

This was the best optimized i could get to excel in brute force/brawler style combat. Does anyone have any ideas to tweak him, make him better? His to hit seems a bit low with +9's when dual wielding (11 when going reckless but armor drops to 14/13/13), but i lost a bab by dipping into monk, tho i needed those feats, and the extra save boost helps the defenses... any thoughts?

Also we are playing E6, so any future feats that should be a must? Obviously weapon focus to increase my hit, but anything else?

I'd recommend Bear totem barbarian in this case over basically any other class you have there.

For a more in depth discussion on grappling check this out: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318300

You could also gain some inspiration from the VoP build challenge I won:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319183

[Feint's End]

It's interesting to see how few of you actually read OP's post. He said it is E6 so most posted options are out and secondly I don't think he wants to play his proud brawler as a caster on crack.
Now off the rant.

I'm gonna second Bear Totem Barbarian. Also I don't see the point in taking the level of monk since you can get improved unarmed strike as a regular feat and deflect arrows is cool but I can't see how it fits your concept. But in the end it all comes down to the backstory/playstyle you imagined.

[Diovid]

E6 huh? You're right, I didn't read the OP as well as I should have.

In that case I still suggest at least 1 level of barbarian but then use the following three variants (instead of bear totem): The 1st Goliath Barbarian susbtitution level (Races of Stone), City-Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349) and Spiritual Bear Totem (Complete Champion).

Spiritual Bear Totem is better than Bear Totem in this case I think because it gives you Improved Grab which can be difficult to accuire in E6.

1 or 2 levels of Fist of the Forest are still on the table of course (but Bear Warrior and Black Blood Cultist are not).

[Gwendol]

I did note the E6 game tag, and phrased my reply accordingly.

I strongly recommend not getting improved grab: it's not really worth it in this case as it works on opponents smaller than the grappler, and since the goliath is medium the limitation will be severe. It's better to gain the fifth bear totem barbarian level and get an untyped +4 bonus to GC's when raging. In this case, the question is which is more worth to you: getting that extra +4 or the FotF second level class features.

[Diovid]

I strongly recommend not getting improved grab: it's not really worth it in this case as it works on opponents smaller than the grappler, and since the goliath is medium the limitation will be severe.
A goliath is large when using mountain rage and it depends on the amount of larger enemies you face (which should be less in E6 than normally).

[Gwendol]

Sure, but I have a feeling that the +4 to grapple is worth more.

[strider24seven]

Clever Wrestling (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/clever-wrestling--355/) is a trap - it is a character option that actually makes your character worse at grappling. First, you only get that bonus to escape a grapple or pin. Why would you want to escape a grapple if you are a grappler? Second, the best bonuses to grapple you can get, especially at low levels, come from being Large or bigger.

Since this is E6, mundanes tend to be fairly bad at grappling because Black Blood Cultist (http://dndtools.eu/classes/black-blood-cultist/)'s Savage Grapple is not available. You need at least some form of casting to be competent - the biggest boosts come from Size bonuses, so Enlarge Person or Expansion is a good place to start. Fist of Stone (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-arcane--55/fist-of-stone--546/) is also fantastic for its huge bonus to STR and the free natural attack.

Whatever you do (unless you choose option #3 outlined below), get Improved Grapple. Seriously - the name of the feat says it all. Also try to get Jotunbrud (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-faerun--23/jotunbrud--1702/) allowed, since it's the Goliath's best ability without the LA.

Speaking of LA, don't take it unless your DM allows LA buyoff instead of the E6 point-buy reduction. Grapplers tend to be very MAD, needing heavy investment in STR, CON, and a casting stat. The only exceptions to this are the Feral Template from Savage Species, and the Mineral Warrior Template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) - the former is almost always worth it, and the latter is particularly good in E6 because of the DR and the huge bonuses.

I disagree with Gwendol about Improved Grab - if you are Large (via Enlarge Person or similar), then Improved Grab will work on the majority of creatures of CR 8 or less - only 160 out of 401 in the SRD are Large or Larger (that's ~40% of creatures by name). However, many of the creatures that are Huge are Larger are variations of hydrae, whales, and monstrous vermin, creatures against whom grappling is not particularly effective anyway - against whom you need other options to be something more than a flimsy wall of hp.

At this level, you have three options that make you good both at grappling and at other things:

1. Focused Transmuter 5/Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian 1, utilizing Enlarge Person, Baubau Slime (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/babau-slime--3871/), and Balor Nimbus (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/balor-nimbus--3929/). Do note that you are also a wizard. If Dragon is allowed, Faerie Mysteries Initiate (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Faerie_Mysteries_Initiate) is very powerful.

2. Psychic Warrior 6 OR Psychic Warrior 5/Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian 1. Utilizing Expansion, Grip of Iron, Bite of the Wolf, and the Illithid Grapple (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-psionic--59/illithid-grapple--1431/) line. If you expect to get many additional feats after 6th, Aberration Blood (Flexible Limbs), Inhuman Reach, and Deepspawn are also excellent and flavorful. Overchannel lets you use Expansion to reach Huge size. You also have room to pick up utility powers.

3. Changeling Egoist 6. The racial substitution at 5th gets you Metamorphosis as a power known, though you have to boost your caster level by 1 to use it. Just pick up overchannel, you regain hp when you cast the spell anyway. Now go dig through the monster manuals. Pick up Metamorphic Transfer at 6th. Use Expanded Knowledge to pick up Expansion if you want - it's entirely unnecessary since Metamorphosis alone makes you hands-down (tentacles-down?) the best grappler at your level by a large (gargantuan?) margin. You are also a full psion.

You can also splash Totemist 2 for Girallon Arms - Totemist 6 is also a viable build, though not as powerful as the above because it lacks "real" spellcasting.

Edited for typos and note about Improved Grapple

[evilserran]

Totally forgot to mention that our buy off was a reduction in point buy, so i do not have a LA asi got bumped to 25 pts instead of 32.

Also, a lot of the feats you are listing are not in my books, can you cite the names at least or link, like several persons did so i can look into them a bit easier? And consensus seems to be level of monk not needed? Level of barbarian would be better then it seems.

We Houseruled clever wrestling to work all the time, but to grab and escape the grab. I do dislike psions, they confuse me and no one in my group has experience with them. Pretty sure the goliath already gets the "jotunbrund" effect... My DM says they are always treated as larger if it is advantageous, and thats what my herolab program says as well.

I really dont think i want to be a caster either, as i envision this guy being a brawler conan/kull combined with a wrestling master like Hoyce Gracy. When i get home i will look into Black Blood Cultist prc from Champions of Ruin and about the Totemist base class from Magic of Incarnum.

Lots of thoughts and ideas, and i want to say thnaks in advance and afterwards to all and their opinions. Please dont feel i am dismissing any of you or your options, they are all new to me, so i may make something similar another time, but i cant rebend myself too much since we are level 5 in an E6. Had to rebuild after my warlock CDG'd himself lol.

[Person_Man]

Increasing Size, Effective Size, Unarmed Damage, Reach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777)

Increasing your actual and effective size increases your Grapple checks, your damage output (especially unarmed strike and natural weapons, which are easier to effectively increase), and usually your reach (which increases your threatened area, which provokes attacks of opportunity when enemies attempt to move near you).

In my personal experience, the most efficient builds for effectively using Grapple are Druid, Totemist, or Monk 1/Psychic Warrior 19 with the Tashalatora Feat (which allows Monk and Psychic Warrior level to stack to determine unarmed damage). If it's a low level or E6 game, then I would definitely use Druid or Totemist.

[Gwendol]

Totally forgot to mention that our buy off was a reduction in point buy, so i do not have a LA asi got bumped to 25 pts instead of 32.

Also, a lot of the feats you are listing are not in my books, can you cite the names at least or link, like several persons did so i can look into them a bit easier? And consensus seems to be level of monk not needed? Level of barbarian would be better then it seems.

We Houseruled clever wrestling to work all the time, but to grab and escape the grab. I do dislike psions, they confuse me and no one in my group has experience with them. Pretty sure the goliath already gets the "jotunbrund" effect... My DM says they are always treated as larger if it is advantageous, and thats what my herolab program says as well.

I really dont think i want to be a caster either, as i envision this guy being a brawler conan/kull combined with a wrestling master like Hoyce Gracy. When i get home i will look into Black Blood Cultist prc from Champions of Ruin and about the Totemist base class from Magic of Incarnum.

Lots of thoughts and ideas, and i want to say thnaks in advance and afterwards to all and their opinions. Please dont feel i am dismissing any of you or your options, they are all new to me, so i may make something similar another time, but i cant rebend myself too much since we are level 5 in an E6. Had to rebuild after my warlock CDG'd himself lol.

Yes, Goliath's have powerful build, which is strictly better than Jotunbrud, and doesn't cost a feat.
In your E6 game I think the Bear Totem Barbarian/Fist of the Forest build I proposed will work very well.

Dragonborn Goliath bear totem barbarian 4/FotF 2, Dragon Wing aspect

1. Imp Unarmed Strike, Toughness (Bonus)
2. Imp Grapple (Bonus)
3. Power Attack, Great Fortitude (Bonus)
4.
5. FotF 1
6. Scorpions grasp

Dragonborn gives you wings so even flying opponents will have a hard time escaping you. You might want to consider taking a fifth level of barbarian at level 6 for the extra +4 to grapple when raging, but I would personally stick with FotF.
At level 2 your GC will be (while raging): 2+4+5+4=15 (2+4+8+4=18)

That's not bad and due to BAB it will continue to increase as you gain levels. Caster grapplers will have a hard time matching this, and even if their potential damage is greater, they need to spend rounds casting spells whereas you can simply rage (free action) and get right into it.
Other feats to consider is extra rage.

[strider24seven]

Totally forgot to mention that our buy off was a reduction in point buy, so i do not have a LA asi got bumped to 25 pts instead of 32.

If this is the case, then I would recommend NOT going Goliath. You are very dependent on your ability scores - you need STR for grapple checks and damage and CON for hp. You lose your DEX modifier in a grapple, but still need it for initiative. You can probably dump INT and CHA but still need WIS for Will Saves and Spot/Listen.


Also, a lot of the feats you are listing are not in my books, can you cite the names at least or link, like several persons did so i can look into them a bit easier? And consensus seems to be level of monk not needed? Level of barbarian would be better then it seems.

Monk - Hurts your BAB, which is very important if you're not going the caster route. Gives you feats (plentiful in E6), and boosts your saves. Possibly gets you some AC if you were going unarmored anyway (not recommended). Exemplars of Evil has the Invisible Fist Alternate Class feature that trades Evasion for the ability to become invisible every three rounds. Dragon Magazine has the Martial Monk, which (depending on your reading) lets you pick up Weapon Supremacy (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/weapon-supremacy--3125/) and Shock Trooper (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/shock-trooper--2614/) in the first two levels (it lets you pick Fighter Feats as your Monk feats and arguably inherits this line:



A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.


We Houseruled clever wrestling to work all the time, but to grab and escape the grab. I do dislike psions, they confuse me and no one in my group has experience with them. Pretty sure the goliath already gets the "jotunbrund" effect... My DM says they are always treated as larger if it is advantageous, and thats what my herolab program says as well.

If that's the case with clever wrestling, then by all means take it!

Jotunbrud, on the other hand, is actually much better than Goliath in E6, since feats are so plentiful. The only advantage that Powerful Build has over Jotunbrud is that it lets you wield larger weapons (which is not the reason you want to take it).


I really dont think i want to be a caster either, as i envision this guy being a brawler conan/kull combined with a wrestling master like Hoyce Gracy. When i get home i will look into Black Blood Cultist prc from Champions of Ruin and about the Totemist base class from Magic of Incarnum.

If you choose to be a non-caster, you will have a very difficult time remaining useful in E6 as a grappler against the larger enemies. Your damage will be very low, often limited to a single attack per round, and you will have a difficult time sustaining a meaningful grapple check against some enemies. For instance, a Gargantuan Monstrous Centipede has a grapple check of +27.

For comparison, Gwendol's mundane build gives a respectable +25 at level 6 twice per day (assuming he picks up a +2 STR item), which is a 40% success rate against the centipede (and actually quite good against basically everything else), and deals 1d8+6 (avg 10.5, raging, before power attack) every round with a to-hit roll. Unfortunately you don't get very much utility outside of grappling - you have a hefty amount of hp, power attack, and a good STR score, but you like the damage of a charger, and don't have much utility outside of combat.

Mundanes can perform well against smaller/weaker foes in grapples, but they will tend to struggle to be useful as anything other than a meat shield against the stronger foes - the strongest creature I have come across in E6 has probably been a Barbed Devil (CR 11, he was basically a quest in and of himself).

Since you are in E6, I would not bother with Black Blood Cultist, since its signature ability, Savage Grapple, comes at ECL 13.

If you must absolutely be a non-caster, I would highly suggest going Totemist.


Lots of thoughts and ideas, and i want to say thnaks in advance and afterwards to all and their opinions. Please dont feel i am dismissing any of you or your options, they are all new to me, so i may make something similar another time, but i cant rebend myself too much since we are level 5 in an E6. Had to rebuild after my warlock CDG'd himself lol.

[Gwendol]

Yes, the next most important thing with grappling (after maximizing your GC) is to know when not to grapple. For this build I recommend a good 2-handed weapon for those occasions: quarterstaff or greatclub if you don't want to spend gold, a reach weapon of your choice if you do.

[evilserran]

Where does totemist come from? Which path/book?

[Roga]

The Totemist comes from Magic of the Incarnum.