What does immunity to something mean?

[Talakeal]

In the orbs vs. incorporeal thread a few issues were brought up that I don't have the answer to.

What does immunity mean?

Obviously if something targets you or does damage to you immunity is simple, you can ignore the effects on you or reduce the damage to zero.

But what if you are immune to something that doesn't do either of these things? For example, you are immune to magic, could you walk through a wall of force? Ignore the attacks of summoned creatures?


Also, on the subject of immunity: The PHB says you can lower your resistance voluntarily. The MM says you cannot lower your immunity involuntarily.

The PHB gives an example of an elf lowering its resistance to sleep (elves don't have resistance to sleep, they have resistance to charm and immunity to sleep). People use this to claim the MM text is wrong and you can lower immunity.

Shouldn't a faulty example that flies in the face of a clear rule be one of those primary vs. secondary source things and ignored?

[AMFV]

In the orbs vs. incorporeal thread a few issues were brought up that I don't have the answer to.

What does immunity mean?

Obviously if something targets you or does damage to you immunity is simple, you can ignore the effects on you or reduce the damage to zero.

But what if you are immune to something that doesn't do either of these things? For example, you are immune to magic, could you walk through a wall of force? Ignore the attacks of summoned creatures?

Well in 3.5 Immunity generally means that if the effect allows spell resistance you automatically resist it. Wall of Force is SR: No, so no dice on walking through it, even with immunity. The same for the Summon Monster spells so again no dice on avoiding their attacks. The Orbs are all SR: No and so aren't voided by immunity. Unless it's a specific immunity, for example immunity to acid damage would protect you from being damaged by the orb of acid, although not it's secondary effects as I understand it.

[phlidwsn]

For starters, there's two general types of immunity out there:
1) Flat specific immunity. IE fire elementals are immune to fire.
2) golem style magic immunity, which is defined as immune to any spell effect that requires SR, aka always wins SR checks, aka SR infinity.

[Talakeal]

Well in 3.5 Immunity generally means that if the effect allows spell resistance you automatically resist it. Wall of Force is SR: No, so no dice on walking through it, even with immunity. The same for the Summon Monster spells so again no dice on avoiding their attacks. The Orbs are all SR: No and so aren't voided by immunity. Unless it's a specific immunity, for example immunity to acid damage would protect you from being damaged by the orb of acid, although not it's secondary effects as I understand it.

I don't believe that is the case, at least non in the description of immunity I can find in the MM. Most golems have immunity to any spell which allows SR, which implies that normal immunity is not tied to SR, and many creatures have immunity to mundane effect, which clearly allow no CR.

[MrNobody]

But what if you are immune to something that doesn't do either of these things? For example, you are immune to magic, could you walk through a wall of force? Ignore the attacks of summoned creatures?


I think that immunity to something means that you are not affected by it, just live an hydrophobic and impermeable material is not wet after being in contact with water.
If you are generally immune to magic, it simply flows over you with no effect: you can cut through a wall of force, ignoring being desintegrated and so on.

For the summoned creatures i think that i's a little different: as I intend summoning, it works by taking somone by a place in the universe and bringing it to you, maybe subjugating it to your will. As i see it, magic it's not in the creature itself but in the magical link that bound it to a specific place and person. That's also why attack from summoned creatures are not influenced by Spell Resistence.

[AMFV]

I don't believe that is the case, at least non in the description of immunity I can find in the MM. Most golems have immunity to any spell which allows SR, which implies that normal immunity is not tied to SR, and many creatures have immunity to mundane effect, which clearly allow no CR.

Yes as I pointed out, when I talked about specific immunities, basically the effects of an actual immunity to magic wind up with the game mechanics going really wonky, really really really wonky, which is why they changed it in 3.5. But specific immunities are less confusing and present less complex rules issues.

[Talakeal]

The only thing I see about immunity as a general rule is on page 310 of the MM. The PHB and DMG seem to be silent about it.

The general rule is only two sentences long and says "A creature that has immunity to an effect is never harmed (or helped) by that effect. A creature cannot suppress this ability to receive a beneficial effect."

Nothing about SR, targeting, or damage in that general rule, although SOME specific creatures make mention of those things in their description.


Yes as I pointed out, when I talked about specific immunities, basically the effects of an actual immunity to magic wind up with the game mechanics going really wonky, really really really wonky, which is why they changed it in 3.5. But specific immunities are less confusing and present less complex rules issues.

Ok, so that dragon bane golem the guy keeps bringing up in the other thread is a 3.0 monster which doesn't work in 3.5? That makes sense, it is in a 3.0 book, and its blanket "immunity to ALL spells AND supernatural abilities" is a bit of a head scratcher for me. I guess all of the other blanket magic immune monsters I can think of are from 3.0 books.

[AMFV]

The only thing I see about immunity as a general rule is on page 310 of the MM. The PHB and DMG seem to be silent about it.

The general rule is only two sentences long and says "A creature that has immunity to an effect is never harmed (or helped) by that effect. A creature cannot suppress this ability to receive a beneficial effect."

Nothing about SR, targeting, or damage in that general rule, although SOME specific creatures make mention of those things in their description.

I believe all cases of Immunity to Magic in 3.5 do in fact have that exemption. Everything else is 3.0, which is why it was corrected in general, because it presents unusual situations which are confusing and/or complex, I can think of no 3.5 with Magic Immunity without that exemption included, so it's probably just a general thing.



Ok, so that dragon bane golem the guy keeps bringing up in the other thread is a 3.0 monster which doesn't work in 3.5? That makes sense, it is in a 3.0 book, and its blanket "immunity to ALL spells AND supernatural abilities" is a bit of a head scratcher for me. I guess all of the other blanket magic immune monsters I can think of are from 3.0 books.

What "dragon bane golem"? Do you mean the Shadesteel Golem, which has that particular exemption, it's infinite SR as well, the reason you'd want to lower it is to switch brains with it. And that ability allows SR.

[Karnith]

Ok, so that dragon bane golem the guy keeps bringing up in the other thread is a 3.0 monster which doesn't work in 3.5? That makes sense, it is in a 3.0 book, and its blanket "immunity to ALL spells AND supernatural abilities" is a bit of a head scratcher for me. I guess all of the other blanket magic immune monsters I can think of are from 3.0 books.

What "dragon bane golem"? Do you mean the Shadesteel Golem, which has that particular exemption, it's infinite SR as well, the reason you'd want to lower it is to switch brains with it. And that ability allows SR.
It's the Dragonbone Golem, from Draconomicon (a 3.5 book), though Drakestone Golems and Ironwyrm Golems have the same kind of Magic Immunity, just with exceptions (i.e. "immune to blah blah, except as follows,"). They are immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects and abilities, with no distinction between spells that allow SR and those that don't.

[ben-zayb]

On topics of immunity, I think it's also worth pointing out that plenty of (or is this a general rule to ALL instances?) immunity to <energy types> (fire, cold, sonic, acid, and lightning) only works on the damaging effects of these energy types. As such, the Blasphemy family of spells would still work just fine (if I read it correctly, that is).

[AMFV]

It's the Dragonbone Golem, from Draconomicon (a 3.5 book), though Drakestone Golems and Ironwyrm Golems have the same kind of Immunity to Magic, just with exceptions (i.e. "immune to blah blah, except as follows,"). They are immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects and abilities, with no distinction between spells that allow SR and those that don't.

That sounds like an oversight at least to me, I'd rule it the other way since it presents so many rules problems as is. Although I would notify people of that beforehand.

[Talakeal]

It's the Dragonbone Golem, from Draconomicon (a 3.5 book), though Drakestone Golems and Ironwyrm Golems have the same kind of Immunity to Magic, just with exceptions (i.e. "immune to blah blah, except as follows,"). They are immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects and abilities, with no distinction between spells that allow SR and those that don't.

So it is... well back to the drawing board.


On topics of immunity, I think it's also worth pointing out that plenty of (or is this a general rule to ALL instances?) immunity to <energy types> (fire, cold, sonic, acid, and lightning) only works on the damaging effects of these energy types. As such, the Blasphemy family of spells would still work just fine (if I read it correctly, that is).

It makes sense, but I can't find anything to back this up. The monster manual makes no mention of damage that I can find, either in the immunity ability or the specific instances of elemental immunity. It looks like it would be perfectly reasonable to rule that, say, a cold immune creature could simply walk straight through a Wall of Ice or move through an Ice Storm at full speed.

[Melcar]

I think that immunity to something means that you are not affected by it, just live an hydrophobic and impermeable material is not wet after being in contact with water.
If you are generally immune to magic, it simply flows over you with no effect: you can cut through a wall of force, ignoring being desintegrated and so on.

For the summoned creatures i think that i's a little different: as I intend summoning, it works by taking somone by a place in the universe and bringing it to you, maybe subjugating it to your will. As i see it, magic it's not in the creature itself but in the magical link that bound it to a specific place and person. That's also why attack from summoned creatures are not influenced by Spell Resistence.

You are thinking about Calling. Calling physically takes someone from somewhere and places it where you like. Sommon is where you call the aspect of the creature, and its a duration effect and thats why they go away with dispel magic and wink out in AMF

[Lord Vukodlak]

That sounds like an oversight at least to me, I'd rule it the other way since it presents so many rules problems as is. Although I would notify people of that beforehand.

Sounds like they copied and pasted from the 3.0 Golem entry instead of 3.5

[Talakeal]

Sounds like they copied and pasted from the 3.0 Golem entry instead of 3.5

Did the 3.0 golems have immunity to SU abilities? That's a big change, as SU doesn't allow SR and that would mean the other golems lost a lot of immunities.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Did the 3.0 golems have immunity to SU abilities? That's a big change, as SU doesn't allow SR and that would mean the other golems lost a lot of immunities.

Yes they did in 3.0 golem's magic entry would read X golems are "immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects, except as follows" Example

Flesh golems are immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects, except as follows One of the changes in 3.5 was to reduce the scope magic immunity.

[Slipperychicken]

If you're talking about "Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellImmunity)"

Spell Immunity
A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.

If you're talking about the Golem Magic immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm), they're generally written like this:


Immunity to Magic (Ex)
A [insert type here] golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.


If you're talking about "Fire Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fireImmunity)"

Fire Immunity
A creature with fire immunity never takes fire damage. It has vulnerability to cold, which means it takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from cold, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure.

[Cold Immunity is a copy-paste of Fire Immunity, only swapping "fire" with "cold" and vice versa where they appear]


EDIT: You can totally lower your spell resistance voluntarily, as shown here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance)


A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

Since Spell Immunity works exactly like spell resistance (see first quote), you can take a Standard Action to lower it until the start of your next turn.

[Talakeal]

If you're talking about "Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellImmunity)"


If you're talking about the Golem Magic immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm), they're generally written like this:




If you're talking about "Fire Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fireImmunity)"


[Cold Immunity is a copy-paste of Fire Immunity, only swapping "fire" with "cold" and vice versa where they appear]


EDIT: You can totally lower your spell resistance voluntarily, as shown here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance)

Interesting. That clears up a lot of things, but it seems to lack a source and still doesn't cover a lot of circumstances.

Is this text from a book or is it just SRD exclusive? Because the three core books lack that text afaik, and that link lacks the rules that are in the MM. It also doesnt explain how to deal with effects that are neither spells nor damage, say for example poison or energy drain.

[Drachasor]

There's no one rule on what "immunity" means. It is typically defined for each sort of ability. Though I suppose in some cases it might not be such as with poison immunity -- but they are so obvious in their meaning that there's no need to define it rigorously, I think.

[Slipperychicken]

Is this text from a book or is it just SRD exclusive? Because the three core books lack that text afaik, and that link lacks the rules that are in the MM. It also doesnt explain how to deal with effects that are neither spells nor damage, say for example poison or energy drain.

All the rules content on the SRD comes from 3.5 sourcebooks. This (http://www.d20srd.org/faq.htm) should help clarify things:


This site currently contains content from all sourcebooks published by Wizards of the Coast that contain open content. This includes open content from the following books published in the official d20 SRD:

Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual
Epic Level Handbook
Deities and Demigods
Expanded Psionics Handbook
In addition, the following open game content has also been included:

Razor Boar and Scorpionfolk from Monster Manual II
"Variant Rules" from Unearthed Arcana
Hopefully there will be content from other sourcebooks released under the OGL in the future. When that happens, you can be assured that I will include it on this site.

Also, the content is spread out among various sections for ease-of-use: If you can't find a rule which you believe is in the MM, try using the site's search function (or just ask me to find it for you, because searching an SRD can be challenging).


explain how to deal with effects that are neither spells nor damage, say for example poison or energy drain.

This is pretty easy. If you're immune to a poison or energy drain, then it doesn't have any effect on you. So you can basically drink poisoned liquids as if they were bad-tasting water, and a Succubus can use her energy drain kisses on you all day and you'll still feel fine.

[Talakeal]

All the rules content on the SRD comes from 3.5 sourcebooks. This (http://www.d20srd.org/faq.htm) should help clarify things:



Also, the content is spread out among various sections for ease-of-use: If you can't find a rule which you believe is in the MM, try using the site's search function (or just ask me to find it for you, because searching an SRD can be challenging).

I just can't find the text you linked in any of the three core 3.5 books. I can find a description of the immunity ability in the back of the 3.5 MM, but I can't find that same rule anywhere in SRD.




This is pretty easy. If you're immune to a poison or energy drain, then it doesn't have any effect on you. So you can basically drink poisoned liquids as if they were bad-tasting water, and a Succubus can use her energy drain kisses on you all day and you'll still feel fine.

From a common sense / RAI perspective sure, that makes perfect sense. I would just like to find a RAW source that backs it up, as there are some edge cases where RAI isn't so clear cut, like the aforementioned immunity to SU effects.

[Rijan_Sai]

I just can't find the text you linked in any of the three core 3.5 books. I can find a description of the immunity ability in the back of the 3.5 MM, but I can't find that same rule anywhere in SRD.

Spell Immunity is in the Glossary, pg 315 in my MM.

Golem Magic Immunity is first generally in the Golem section:

Immunity to Magic (Ex): Golems have immunity to most magical and supernatural effects, except when otherwise noted.
That bolded part is important, because every Golem in the MM has this:

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A golem is immune to any spell
or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.
*The wording is identical for all four golems.

[Slipperychicken]

I just can't find the text you linked in any of the three core 3.5 books. I can find a description of the immunity ability in the back of the 3.5 MM, but I can't find that same rule anywhere in SRD.


"Immunity" is not a distinct ability defined by the rules. It is a commonly-used word in the english language which has a relatively clear meaning. I suppose that when the rules invoke the term "immunity" (like when they say "immune to poison"), it means that the subject is not susceptible to its direct effects (such as ability damage or status effects).



From a common sense / RAI perspective sure, that makes perfect sense. I would just like to find a RAW source that backs it up, as there are some edge cases where RAI isn't so clear cut, like the aforementioned immunity to SU effects.

I suppose that where RAW is absent, each group's judgement will just have to suffice.