monster races that survive the la punishment

[CyberThread]

What monster races when aiming for the tier 3 or 4 bracket survive after the bday and la cost if building something not involving casting spells.

[OldTrees1]

Large size for +1LA
Half - Orge [Savage Species]
Goliath Barbarian(Mountain Rage) [Races of Stone]

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm gonna say Karsite. They're pretty awesome and flavorful and definitely work best in a non caster build.

[Fouredged Sword]

Lizard Folk make fairly good fighters or barbarians. Armor Spikes give you a wieldable weapon that won't prevent your Claw/Claw/Bite. Something like Whirlpounce barbarian would be fairly effective. That +5 AC and +2 str and Con are great.

[PraxisVetli]

On that note, I'm quite fond of Poison Dusk Lizardfolk.

[Fouredged Sword]

I also played around with the idea of a tauric lizardfolk / Crocodile

5 monsterous humanoid HD (Full bab), +5 natural armor, +8 str, +2 dex, +6 con, -2 int, Bite/ClawX2/Tail Slap, Hold Breath, swim speed.

Not horrid for +8 str and +6 con. If playing around level 8 or so, you could by off that +1 LA and go for a full BAB class like barbarian.

[Jeff the Green]

Pixie's doable at +4 LA, and about the highest you can go without totally gimping yourself. I'd consider half-fey and any of the plane-touched races in the right build or campaign.

[CyberThread]

How is pixie doable but not mind void

[Fouredged Sword]

Pixie have great stats, perma-invis (greater), flight, DR 10/cold iron, SR that scales with class levels, and an unlimited use save or loose that aims at fort or will.

It MAY be worth the +4 la, but in many cases, it's still too much to swallow.

[almightycoma]

mineral warrior is good at +1( i think)

[sideswipe]

anthropomorphic animals. if you can think of a commonly used monster race there is usually an anth animal which is better in most ways.

e.g ogre: anth elephant.

[OldTrees1]

How is pixie doable but not mind void

Pixie: +4
Greater Invisibility (ie total concealment)
SR 15+HD
+20 stats

Voidmind: +3
Immunity to Acid and Mind-affecting
SR 10+HD
+10 stats

[ShurikVch]

Steel Dragon (wyrmling) 4 RHD, LA +2 //Alternate form is interesting on it's one, but add in fly speed, sorcerer 1 casting, breath weapon, natural weapons, acid immunity and poison resistance, and it gets even more interesting

Ice Demon (from Dragon Compendium) 10 RHD, LA +2 //Those RHD give you 8 skill points, monk saves and full BAB. Also, SA: Ice blades, ice shards; and SQ: Cold immunity, DR 10/lawful, outsider traits, SR 16, vulnerable to fire

[(Un)Inspired]

anthropomorphic animals. if you can think of a commonly used monster race there is usually an anth animal which is better in most ways.

e.g ogre: anth elephant.

The only problem here is that the non LA anthro animals are so much better than the LA ones. Although I'd love to play a anthropomorphic giant crocodile some day. Leatherhead FTW!

[CyberThread]

Oooh like Amish drake

[Snowbluff]

Marrulurk. 3 HD, 1 LA, but have strong stats, SA, Cha Based Death Attack, and a breath weapon. They have stelath bonuses and their HD has full BaB, so it makes for a low level assassin/combat focused rogue.

Non Psionic Thrikreen are good, since they have 4 arms and a huge jump bonus.

Insectile is really good for MWF, since your gain 4 arms and a special sense.

[Zanos]

Pixie: +4
Greater Invisibility (ie total concealment)
SR 15+HD
+20 stats

Voidmind: +3
Immunity to Acid and Mind-affecting
SR 10+HD
+10 stats

Voidmind also gives immunity to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, which is pretty nice, and fairly hard to acquire otherwise. It can be bought off by level 20, too.

It's not a bad template, LA just sucks really hard.

[Keld Denar]

I like Voidmind much better as a DM than as a player.

Mwa ha ha ha ha!

[ShurikVch]

Adult Incarnum Dragon - 19 RHD and LA +0!

[Snowbluff]

Adult Incarnum Dragon - 19 RHD and LA +0!

Sorry to break it to you, but LA -, which means you can't play it. Which makes me want to play it. :smalltongue:

[Karnith]

Sorry to break it to you, but LA -, which means you can't play it. Which makes me want to play it. :smalltongue:
But if you play as that specific sample Incarnum Dragon...It still doesn't work

[(Un)Inspired]

Oooh like Amish drake

Is this like an ambush drake with vow of poverty?

[Snowbluff]

But if you play as that specific sample Incarnum Dragon...

Wut. Who did that? I thought MoI was supposed to be one of the well edited books. Someone left an LA +0 in there!

Actually, you know what? I'd let it slide. These are incredibly mediocre dragons.

[ShurikVch]

Sorry to break it to you, but LA -, which means you can't play it. Which makes me want to play it. :smalltongue:
Why "-" ?
"SAMPLE INCARNUM DRAGON" continue on page 175:

Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0
Was it ERRATAed or what?

[Kazyan]

It probably would have been errata'd, but MoI is like WotC lost a bet and had to flesh out an 8-year old's pitch for a concept, then punted the sourcebook out the door and desperately pretended it didn't exist. Which is a shame, as it's a decent book.

[WhamBamSam]

Mercury Wyrmling at 3 RHD/2 LA into something like an initiator class is decent. Flyby Attack at 200ft perfect speed and the Wyrm of War Sovereign Archetype are pretty snazzy. It can't get 9th level maneuvers without LA buyoff unless you use an age curse though. They can also be pretty destructive with a two level dip in Totemist for Landshark Boots and various other dips for bonus damage (or just straight into Factotum, Warblade, or Swordsage if you don't have to worry about multiclass penalties).

If you can use the Ravening dragon psychosis, then dragons with manageable ECL and good breath weapons (Sappire, Steel, Shadow) make for interesting Factotums, using Cunning Surge+Ravening to spam their breath weapon and (again, if allowed) age cursing as an ace in the hole for emergencies and skill flexibility.

The Dracolich and Vampiric Dragon templates on Dragonwrought Kobolds might be okay with significant optimization. It'd help if you retained the dragon type along with all the undead stuff you gain, which might be the case by RAW, since you have a still active feat which has the effect "your type is dragon."

I like Werewolf or Weredog Substitute Power Ardent/Slayer. The 2 LA are annoying, but the RHD can be (mostly) made up for with Practiced Manifester. It's certainly suboptimal without buyoff, but it should hold up pretty well as a gish in T3 play.

It's technically only available as a cohort option, but I think the Blink Dog is salvageable as a Shadow Pouncer at 4 HD/2 LA.

Multiheaded creatures might be okay at 2 HD/2 LA in exchange for extra bite/gore/tongue attacks and breath weapons (assuming it has such things already), +2 Con, Darkvision, Superior Two Weapon/Multiweapon Fighting and a few feats. Suboptimal to be sure, but it can probably be used in certain builds (A TWF Warblade or Swordsage would love to get Superior Two Weapon Fighting for free, and a Dragonfire Adept or Dragon Shaman might forgive the level loss in exchange for twinning their breath weapons).

Thri-kreen are worth it, especially if you can get the non-Psionic version.




That LA +0 sample Adult Incarnum Dragon might work as a T3 Soulborn Fix once you slap on Ravening, Wyrm of War, and the Xorvintaal template.:smalltongue:

[ImaDeadMan]

Thri-kreen without psionics is a nice race at only +1 LA

[DeAnno]

Races of Destiny Half-Ogre is generally playable at +2 LA for melee. It's worse than a lot of other options but has the advantage of not coming from somewhere sketchy like Dragon Magazine. (Large size, +6 Strength, other various bonuses and penalties that are more or less a wash)

[Invader]

Races with flight with only a +1 usually aren't too bad especially at lower levels.

[Coidzor]

Is this like an ambush drake with vow of poverty?

Nah, it's an Ambush Drake with a lot of facial hair and a penchant for raising barns around people while they sleep.

[CyberThread]

Steel Dragon (wyrmling) 4 RHD, LA +2 //Alternate form is interesting on it's one, but add in fly speed, sorcerer 1 casting, breath weapon, natural weapons, acid immunity and poison resistance, and it gets even more interesting




So , 1/day polymorph +3 natural armor , 16 spell resistance , 150 fly average, 30 ft swim, caster level 1st??((not sure for what?) , acid breath 1d6/posnionus breath 1 con damage. . You count as small, instead of tiny.

edit : I know about dragons full bab and all that lovely stuff, but I left out the +2 con and +2 cha.


Where exactly, can you go with this, without using the eberron dragon changes, that are so loved, when talking about dragons.

[Jeff the Green]

So , 1/day polymorph +3 natural armor , 16 spell resistance , 150 fly average, 30 ft swim, caster level 1st??((not sure for what?) , acid breath 1d6/posnionus breath 1 con damage. . You count as small, instead of tiny.

edit : I know about dragons full bab and all that lovely stuff, but I left out the +2 con and +2 cha.


Where exactly, can you go with this, without using the eberron dragon changes, that are so loved, when talking about dragons.

Off the top of my head, a Totem Rager (spirit lion-whirling frenzy) or bardsader sound about right. They have three natural weapons in their native form and might be able to polymorph into something with more (that's what the CL is for; too bad you're limited to things with 1 HD and the CL isn't boostable as far as I know), which goes well with pouncing, and the natural armor, Constitution and Charisma bonuses, and natural AC make for decent bardery/tanking.

[nedz]

Nah, it's an Ambush Drake with a lot of facial hair and a penchant for raising barns around people while they sleep.

DM: "You emerge from your Rope Trick hidey hole to find yourselves in the middle of a barn"
Players: "Wut"
DM: "You notice A Dragon like creature dozing in the barn. It speaks"
Dragon: "We had us a barn raising"
Players: "Wut, Wut"
DM: "You notice that the dragon has a lot of facial hair"

[ShurikVch]

So , 1/day polymorph Firstly, it's 5/day. And secondly, it last without limit

caster level 1st??((not sure for what?) Yes. It's a good result for a wyrmling.

How about 3rd-party monsters?

Dangerous Denizens (Kingdoms of Kalamar) have Deshada Dragon.
Wyrmling is only 1 HD and LA +1.
It's tiny, and ability scores not impressive (9/11/15/5/7/5), but, at least, it's a True Dragon. Also, speed 60/150 (fly), Cold subtype, BW (line of electricity) 1d4 DC 12, natural weapons and +1 NA.

What's about creatures from Warcraft the RPG?

Jungle Troll. Medium Monstrous Humanoid. 1 HD, LA +1. Str +4, Con +4, Int -2, Cha -2. Fast healing 1. Darkvision 60. Hide (in a jungle environment) +4. Favored class: Barbarian.

Furbolg. Large Humanoid. 1 HD, LA +1. Speed 30. Str +2, Con +2. Claw 1d6, bite 1d8. NA +2. Knowledge (nature) and Survival +2. Favored class: Fighter.

Harpy. Medium Monstrous Humanoid. 2 HD, LA +1. Abilities: 9/14/10/10/13/12. Speed 20/fly 60 (average). Claws as secondary attack. NA +1. Darkvision 60, Immune to filth (nonmagical diseases). Nightsoil poison (contact, fort 12, con dmg 1d3/1d3)

Tauren. Large Humanoid. 1 HD, LA +1. Str +4, Con +2, Dex -2. Speed 30. Tauren charge: single gore attack on charge, dmg 1d8+1,5 Str mod, can also ready action to meet charge (inflict the same dmg). Martial Weapon Proficiency feat (longspear and shortspear), and +1 racial bonus to attack with them. Handle Animal and Survival are class skills, racial +2 with them. Favored class: Fighter.

[WhamBamSam]

So , 1/day polymorph +3 natural armor , 16 spell resistance , 150 fly average, 30 ft swim, caster level 1st??((not sure for what?) , acid breath 1d6/posnionus breath 1 con damage. . You count as small, instead of tiny.

edit : I know about dragons full bab and all that lovely stuff, but I left out the +2 con and +2 cha.


Where exactly, can you go with this, without using the eberron dragon changes, that are so loved, when talking about dragons.It's actually just Alternate Form, not polymorph. Still, you can use Half-Dragon form (though that's in Dragons of Eberron, same book as the Sovereign Archetypes) to become a Half-Dragon Flind Gnoll or Half-Dragon Greensnake Naga with better mental stats and ECL.

You can put Marks of Justice on yourself in your downtime, so that in emergencies you can increase your age for +3 BAB, +2 Sorc casting and a few other minor bonuses as a free action, in exchange for basically getting no exp from the encounter in question because your ECL goes up by 4 until you remove the curse.

You can wear a Crown of the North Wind, meaning you'll deal 3d6/3 Con damage or can choose to cause a Slow effect with your breath instead.

You can acquire one of the Dragon Psychoses in Dragon 313. The casting ones are completely broken, but not to the point of being worth 5 caster levels. Getting Ravening for the ability to use your breath weapon without recharging 3 turns in a row (and indeed as many times as you have actions to do so on your own turn) is worth it though, and then be a Factotum and spam away with said breath weapon.

You can enter Ur Priest at ECL 8 (character level 6) without much trouble.

You can automatically qualify for a few nice things, ignoring prereqs. Singer of Concordance 2 is a great casting dip, especially if you do go the Ur Priest route.

In a very high level build, you can qualify for Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis or Sacred Warder of Bahamut which takes away your Sorc casting, and by RAW adds the effective Sorc level to ALL your divine spellcasting classes. Even without Loredrake or LA buyoff, you can pull triple 9ths this way at ECL 20 if you can use Sanctum Spell for early entry into Mystic Theurge.

In general though, you probably shouldn't play a Steel Dragon if Sovereign Archetypes are banned, or even if Loredrake is banned.

[Coidzor]

Where exactly, can you go with this, without using the eberron dragon changes, that are so loved, when talking about dragons.

You've got BAB +4 and Sorcerer 1 casting. Gishing it up is an option, though it's better if you are able to take Loredrake for BAB+4 & Sorcerer 3 casting.

Depending upon whether you're using the version with alternate form or polymorph SLAs, Warshaper might be on the table. Being able to turn into a Fleshraker is always nice even without warshaper though. I can never remember which of the 3 or 4 versions I've seen are the most up to date/correct one to use, though.

[Starbuck_II]

Lumi's are pretty nice.
No neck, but immunity to negative energy/levels//death effects/blinded/dazzled/light based spells like color spray.

Also at will undead blasting with disrupt undead.

+2 LA, but 2 HD.

[Tvtyrant]

It probably would have been errata'd, but MoI is like WotC lost a bet and had to flesh out an 8-year old's pitch for a concept, then punted the sourcebook out the door and desperately pretended it didn't exist. Which is a shame, as it's a decent book. that was one heck of an 8 year old.

I mean seriously, the system is freaking amazing. It just needed tremendously better explanation.

[incarnate236]

I've always wanted to try a nonpsionic Thri-Keen Rogue.

[cakellene]

On the matter of wyrmling dragons, what age do they grow to next age category and get saddled with more HD and LA?

[TypoNinja]

Thri-kreen without psionics is a nice race at only +1 LA

Don't they come with 2 RHD though? Makes them slightly less awesome.


On the matter of wyrmling dragons, what age do they grow to next age category and get saddled with more HD and LA?


PC dragons seem to get to ignore the age requirements for sizing up, you just take extra LA's at age categories when you are high enough level, and a dragon that takes Class levels ages/grows up slower because of ECL.

I could be wrong, the Draconomicon text is not exactly clear.

[Coidzor]

On the matter of wyrmling dragons, what age do they grow to next age category and get saddled with more HD and LA?

Around 5 according to the table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm), though that may just be the dragons in Core and any dragons that don't specify their own ages for the age categories. Epic Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm), for instance, cease to be Wyrmlings at 10.

[WhamBamSam]

Don't they come with 2 RHD though? Makes them slightly less awesome.They're Monstrous Humanoid HD, so they're full BAB and good Ref and Will Saves. 2 HD/+1 LA to be a Thri-Kreen compares favorably to a 2 level Fighter dip in the right build.



On the matter of wyrmling dragons, what age do they grow to next age category and get saddled with more HD and LA?


PC dragons seem to get to ignore the age requirements for sizing up, you just take extra LA's at age categories when you are high enough level, and a dragon that takes Class levels ages/grows up slower because of ECL.

I could be wrong, the Draconomicon text is not exactly clear.Draconomicon gives guidelines for a few types of dragons and when they should be required to take additional levels of RHD/LA. In all the example cases, the first such level is a RHD when the dragon turns 2 years old. It's reasonable to infer that this would extend to other aging dragons beyond the types that they directly reference, with the exception of the Rattlyr from Shining South, which ages 5 times faster.

Generally a dragon PC will want to avoid these levels if at all possible. A short campaign with limited downtime is the simplest way to make this work, but a vat of quintessence will also work if downtime can't be avoided.

Wyrmlings become Very Young at age 5, as Coidzor said, though the age category table is actually also in MMI, so it is a general rule for dragons and not just the base 10. Again, Rattlyrs are an exception, because they age faster, and hence they become Very Young at 1 year of age.


You've got BAB +4 and Sorcerer 1 casting. Gishing it up is an option, though it's better if you are able to take Loredrake for BAB+4 & Sorcerer 3 casting.

Depending upon whether you're using the version with alternate form or polymorph SLAs, Warshaper might be on the table. Being able to turn into a Fleshraker is always nice even without warshaper though. I can never remember which of the 3 or 4 versions I've seen are the most up to date/correct one to use, though.I would be very surprised if the version with Polymorph were more current than the DoF version with Alternate Form, as all the other dragons which had Polymorph, such as Silver Dragons, were retconned to Alternate Form.

I forgot that Alternate Form could be an animal form instead. So yeah, Fleshraker is certainly an option. Throw on Half-Dragon form, and that actually measures up pretty well against an equal ECL Wildshape Ranger.

[Angelalex242]

Start as a wyrmling dragon of your choice.

Have your wizard friend create a plane where time goes 1200 years for every second of prime material time.

1 second later, you are now great wyrm and ready to go.

[Vaz]

Phaerimm Hatchling.

[WhamBamSam]

Start as a wyrmling dragon of your choice.

Have your wizard friend create a plane where time goes 1200 years for every second of prime material time.

1 second later, you are now great wyrm and ready to go.Natural aging in fast time doesn't work. You still need to gain enough exp to earn the levels in dragon.

Cursing your age up a single category probably does work though, and can be done as a free action with a Mark of Justice cast on you during downtime.

[ShurikVch]

Natural aging in fast time doesn't work. You still need to gain enough exp to earn the levels in dragon.
What's about Aging Touch from Dr#350?
Note: effect temporal, but stacks

[Invader]

Firstly, it's 5/day. And secondly, it last without limit
Yes. It's a good result for a wyrmling.

How about 3rd-party monsters?

Dangerous Denizens (Kingdoms of Kalamar) have Deshada Dragon.
Wyrmling is only 1 HD and LA +1.
It's tiny, and ability scores not impressive (9/11/15/5/7/5), but, at least, it's a True Dragon. Also, speed 60/150 (fly), Cold subtype, BW (line of electricity) 1d4 DC 12, natural weapons and +1 NA.

What's about creatures from Warcraft the RPG?

Jungle Troll. Medium Monstrous Humanoid. 1 HD, LA +1. Str +4, Con +4, Int -2, Cha -2. Fast healing 1. Darkvision 60. Hide (in a jungle environment) +4. Favored class: Barbarian.

Furbolg. Large Humanoid. 1 HD, LA +1. Speed 30. Str +2, Con +2. Claw 1d6, bite 1d8. NA +2. Knowledge (nature) and Survival +2. Favored class: Fighter.

Harpy. Medium Monstrous Humanoid. 2 HD, LA +1. Abilities: 9/14/10/10/13/12. Speed 20/fly 60 (average). Claws as secondary attack. NA +1. Darkvision 60, Immune to filth (nonmagical diseases). Nightsoil poison (contact, fort 12, con dmg 1d3/1d3)

Tauren. Large Humanoid. 1 HD, LA +1. Str +4, Con +2, Dex -2. Speed 30. Tauren charge: single gore attack on charge, dmg 1d8+1,5 Str mod, can also ready action to meet charge (inflict the same dmg). Martial Weapon Proficiency feat (longspear and shortspear), and +1 racial bonus to attack with them. Handle Animal and Survival are class skills, racial +2 with them. Favored class: Fighter.

Those actually all seem entirely reasonable.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'm a huge fan of the anthropomorphic baleen whale in particular, full BAB on a brute type is not bad, even with the deficit in features.

[WhamBamSam]

What's about Aging Touch from Dr#350?
Note: effect temporal, but stacksMind telling me exactly what the spell does? I don't have access to the magazine.

[CyberThread]

Mind telling me exactly what the spell does? I don't have access to the magazine.


makes the target older

[ShurikVch]

Mind telling me exactly what the spell does? I don't have access to the magazine.
Your touch ages living creatures. Any creature you touch with a successful melee touch attack takes 1 point of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution damage. This aging is reflected in the target's appearance-—skin becomes more wrinkled and pockmarked, hair turns white, posture stoops—and while this has no additional negative effect, it does provide a cumulative +2 bonus on Disguise checks. Only the target's body is aged by this spell, and it gains none of the benefits of growing older naturally Creatures that gain benefits by age category do not gain additional advantages due to this spell. Every time a creature is affected by this spell it is temporarily aged one age category—a young character becomes middle age, a middle-aged character become old, and an old character become venerable. (Assume a creature is young if no age is given.) Every time the target ages in this way the effects of this spell stack, until the target reaches venerable age. If a creature is aged past venerable it instead takes 5d6 points of damage each time it is struck, as its body succumbs to the ravages of incredibly swift decay. Thus, a young character struck by a wizard using aging touch three times takes –3 points of damage to Strength. Dexterity, and Constitution and gains a +6 bonus on Disguise checks. Upon being stuck a fourth time, that target takes 5d6 points of damage. Ability damage dealt by this spell heals as normal, at a rate of 1 point per day for each affected ability. The bonus in Disguise check also fades over time, decreasing at a rate of -2 every day until the target’s Disguise modifier returns to normal.

[WhamBamSam]

makes the target olderI wanted the exact wording


Your touch ages living creatures. Any creature you touch with a successful melee touch attack takes 1 point of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution damage. This aging is reflected in the target's appearance-—skin becomes more wrinkled and pockmarked, hair turns white, posture stoops—and while this has no additional negative effect, it does provide a cumulative +2 bonus on Disguise checks. Only the target's body is aged by this spell, and it gains none of the benefits of growing older naturally Creatures that gain benefits by age category do not gain additional advantages due to this spell. Every time a creature is affected by this spell it is temporarily aged one age category—a young character becomes middle age, a middle-aged character become old, and an old character become venerable. (Assume a creature is young if no age is given.) Every time the target ages in this way the effects of this spell stack, until the target reaches venerable age. If a creature is aged past venerable it instead takes 5d6 points of damage each time it is struck, as its body succumbs to the ravages of incredibly swift decay. Thus, a young character struck by a wizard using aging touch three times takes –3 points of damage to Strength. Dexterity, and Constitution and gains a +6 bonus on Disguise checks. Upon being stuck a fourth time, that target takes 5d6 points of damage. Ability damage dealt by this spell heals as normal, at a rate of 1 point per day for each affected ability. The bonus in Disguise check also fades over time, decreasing at a rate of -2 every day until the target’s Disguise modifier returns to normal.Emphasis mine. Aging Touch does not work to fast age dragons.

It might have a use allowing dragons which do not naturally have age categories, such as faerie dragons, pseudodragons, or the various lesser dragons paladins can get as mounts to qualify for Epic feats, since they don't run afoul of the "growing older naturally" bits, as they can't do that, and the spell says it makes creatures middle aged and then old, even if they don't have age categories given. Some epic feats are worth taking a -2 to all physical stats.

[Angelalex242]

I don't think the average dragon has to earn XP to age up.

"It's my 6th birthday, but I was lazy, so I just can't become a very young dragon. I need to go to remedial wyrmling school..."

Dragons are birthday based, not XP based. No matter how much XP they get, they cannot gain age categories faster then father time allows. No matter how little XP they get, they cannot be held back for 'remedial wyrmling classes' for not getting enough XP.

[CyberThread]

*coughs as he speaks up * Racial Hit Dice, are different from Character Level Hit Dice.

A Dragon with 20 levels of wizard, does not gain size or other benefits of higher dice, due to these.

I reference, all arguments that deal with feral gains of Racial Hit Dice vs Character level hit dice.

[WhamBamSam]

I don't think the average dragon has to earn XP to age up.

"It's my 6th birthday, but I was lazy, so I just can't become a very young dragon. I need to go to remedial wyrmling school..."

Dragons are birthday based, not XP based. No matter how much XP they get, they cannot gain age categories faster then father time allows. No matter how little XP they get, they cannot be held back for 'remedial wyrmling classes' for not getting enough XP.Draconomicon has rules for Dragon PCs that say you don't gain the benefits of going up an age category until you've gained enough exp to cover all the RHD and LA. Even for NPC dragons are probably subject to these rules and can't just sit around in fast time/Persisted Time Stop/whatever waiting to become awesome.

However, because these rules pertain only to dragons, A Phaerim Hatchling Sorcerer 9 (ECL 12, 19th level Sorc casting) absolutely could create such a demiplane and head down there to age up, appearing one second later normal time as a Revered Elder. The only thing that might cause a problem would be hitting an age category that has LA -- and becoming unplayable, at which point the DM takes over and has him go off and exterminate the rest of the Phaerimm race from the setting, like he should have done before the game started.

The reason age cursing works is that it those are general rules for dragon aging and the alternate curse in BoVD says "the victim effectively ages" which can't really be said to be true if the effects of aging don't occur, and the specific spell effect trumps the general rule.


*coughs as he speaks up * Racial Hit Dice, are different from Character Level Hit Dice.Not in 3.5 they aren't.

I think that might be true in PF though. Not sure how the monster PC rules work there.

[Angelalex242]

Ridiculous.

Rules should apply equally. If joe blow gold dragon can't go to a demiplane and age up to awesome, neither can phaerim.

Though I'm still not sure what birthdays have to do with XP.

[CyberThread]

Not in 3.5 they aren't.



Then why is feral template, not consider all that grand, for characters; as you only get the 1HD benefit of the template, but not the other things, as you level up?

[WhamBamSam]

Ridiculous.

Rules should apply equally. If joe blow gold dragon can't go to a demiplane and age up to awesome, neither can phaerim.

Though I'm still not sure what birthdays have to do with XP.Rules that specify dragons don't apply to aberrations. A Half-Dragon Phaerimm would have to abide by those rules. I'm sure if they'd thought about Phaerimm as player characters they'd have similar rules. Though if they'd thought about Phaerimm as player characters they wouldn't have written them the way they did.

Read page 140 of Draconomicon. It says that when dragons reach certain ages, they are required to take levels of dragon HD/LA and cannot take class levels until they do. It also says that they do not gain the benefits of going up an age category until they have gained all the corresponding levels of RHD and LA.


Then why is feral template, not consider all that grand, for characters; as you only get the 1HD benefit of the template, but not the other things, as you level up?The Feral template is generally considered extremely powerful to outright broken (at least, as melee things go) at LA +1. And you do get the other benefits as you level up for templates like Feral, Phrenic, and Shadow Creature. Where did you hear otherwise?

Actually, reading over the entry in Savage Species you might be able to make an argument about Feral in particular because the section about gaining special attacks says...

A feral creature gains additional special attacks depending on its Hit Dice as shown in the table below. It gains the special attacks in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice, plus all those in previous rows.Emphasis mine. You could parse that as meaning that it only applies to RHD because it specifies monster Hit Dice instead of just hit dice. Monster Hit Dice might not be a defined term though. Ask Urpriest or Curmudgeon. If this were the case you actually wouldn't get any of the special attacks on something like a Feral human, since you would have 0 RHD. The Fast Healing and Darkvision do scale with level, as they only say Hit Dice, not RHD or monster Hit Dice or anything of the sort.

You should also read Urpriest's Monster Handbook. It goes into all this stuff in some detail.

EDIT: I may have misinterpreted what you were saying. You're right that a Steel Wyrmling Wizard 20 would not be treated as if his 24 HD were in dragon. He would still be a Wyrmling, just one with a character level of 24. I'm not sure where anyone said anything to the contrary though, which is sort of what confused me.

[Snowbluff]

Monster HD = total HD in my book. Urpriest actually disagrees, IIRC. Maybe it's just me. :smalltongue:

[TypoNinja]

Though I'm still not sure what birthdays have to do with XP.

Dragons explicitly get stronger with age, its their thing, as an NPC its not really all that important, you pick the right powered dragon for your needs. As a PC it starts getting kind of screwy.

Techincally dragons need X number of years to advance age catagories, but then the Dragons as PC's section of the Draconomicon goes ahead and tells you that at certain XP levels you take the LA increases for your age category without mentioning age, as well as having an example of a Gold dragon with Paladin levels who doesn't age up because he spent his XP on Paladin levels instead of being a dragon.

Incidentally, I think this means that Dragons can advance to just before Great Wyrm, and then only take PC class levels, so as to escape dying of old age, since dragon death is tied to the Great Wyrm category, and it'll never hit it.

[Angelalex242]

Actually, it doesn't. The Dragon MUST Take Dragon HD every time he has a birthday, and is forbidden to spend his XP on other stuff until he takes his dragon HD.

[WhamBamSam]

Monster HD = total HD in my book. Urpriest actually disagrees, IIRC. Maybe it's just me. :smalltongue:We are all in the monster manual somewhere, are we not?

I'd say it's somewhat ambiguous. Feral is at a banworthy level of broken if you do get all those special attacks though, so it doesn't really matter.


Dragons explicitly get stronger with age, its their thing, as an NPC its not really all that important, you pick the right powered dragon for your needs. As a PC it starts getting kind of screwy.

Techincally dragons need X number of years to advance age catagories, but then the Dragons as PC's section of the Draconomicon goes ahead and tells you that at certain XP levels you take the LA increases for your age category without mentioning age, as well as having an example of a Gold dragon with Paladin levels who doesn't age up because he spent his XP on Paladin levels instead of being a dragon.

Incidentally, I think this means that Dragons can advance to just before Great Wyrm, and then only take PC class levels, so as to escape dying of old age, since dragon death is tied to the Great Wyrm category, and it'll never hit it.He would have to not gain experience either. Once he reaches the appropriate age to start taking more dragon HD/LA, he can't take class levels until after he's taken his level in dragon. He will still become a Great Wyrm eventually if he gets old enough - or at least he probably will. His ECL is so high that he might not gain exp from adventuring parties. Then again, if he's really interested in living forever, he might try to Diplomance them instead of kill them, and talking a party of murderhobos out of fighting might be a significantly higher CR than just snuffing them.

EDIT: It also says that the dragon receives no benefit of reaching a new age category until he gains the HD/LA. Dying of old age is not a benefit.

[Snowbluff]

We are all in the monster manual somewhere, are we not?

I'd say it's somewhat ambiguous. Feral is at a banworthy level of broken if you do get all those special attacks though, so it doesn't really matter.

Yep. :smallcool:

The special attacks are actually very "meh." The pounce only works on the first round, and the others are offset by the LA and the ability penalties. The fast healing, ability bonuses, movement speed bonus and natural armor will all be generally more useful and powerful.

[WhamBamSam]

Yep. :smallcool:

The special attacks are actually very "meh." The pounce only works on the first round, and the others are offset by the LA and the ability penalties. The fast healing, ability bonuses, movement speed bonus and natural armor will all be generally more useful and powerful.Yeah, I guess they really aren't that bad. Still, pounce is mostly a first round of combat thing anyway. I'd say that the special attacks on their own aren't that much weaker than a Pouncebarian dip.

[ShurikVch]

Draconomicon has rules for Dragon PCs that say you don't gain the benefits of going up an age category until you've gained enough exp to cover all the RHD and LA. Even for NPC dragons are probably subject to these rules and can't just sit around in fast time/Persisted Time Stop/whatever waiting to become awesome. Hey, what's about the Awaken spell line?
+2 HD. Enough HD = next age category.