Best Tank

[Sian]

got into a discussion with a friend the other day, which build most effectively was able to pull off being a pseudo-MMO'ish Tank, that could soak the most attacks from opponents as possible (and ideally get damaged as little as posible), and we tentatively ended up that it would probably be some variant of Knight3+ and Crusader1+ but which way is the best?

Offensive capabilities beyond making sure that the opponents stick to him is irrelevant

[Diarmuid]

For any kind of true "Tank" style build you almost have to include at least enough Knight to get the ability to "taunt". The ability that causes your threatened squares to be difficult terrain is also nice.

Otherwise, the ability to take hits and either through avoidance or mitigation is neglible as you usually sacrifice damage output to do it and if you're not a threat then no one is going to bother trying to kill you until the real threats are gone.

Crusader is usually included as they have abilities to mitigate damage, and their iron guard's glare is another psuedo taunt in that it makes attacking you more attractive.

[Xervous]

The main problem you have here is getting your opponent to attack the tank, rather than the squishy mage.

If you don't bring any threat to the table, you're nothing more than a walking pillar.

Often I see people employing trip fighters for these sorts of things because they do wonderfully for area denial.

[Diarmuid]

Correct, some kind of BFC ability while surrounded by difficult terrain and penalties for attacking anyone but you are the mostly commonly mentioned tactics for "tanking" in D&D.

[Amphetryon]

Dwarf Ranger 3/Knight 3/Crusader 2/Deepwarden 2/Devoted Defender (3.0 Class) 10 is pretty tankish.

[(Un)Inspired]

What's that psionic power that makes you immune to everything? Someone with that persisted would probably be best

Edit: Timeless body

[Flickerdart]

Knight doesn't work that well, since it's a low DC that only works against intelligent opponents, and attacking the creature breaks the effect. The only foolproof way of tanking is actually being a legitimate threat that the enemy wants to eliminate first.

[Azoth]

Throw Quasilycanthrope on a RKV with trip feats and enjoy. If you can squeeze in the feat Goad, go for it,

DR 10/silver, delayed damage pool, self healing that is worth something, and alot of the normal clerical buff routine.

[Flickerdart]

If you can squeeze in the feat Goad, go for it,
Goad is terrifyingly useless. You're giving up a useful action to have a chance at making melee critters attack you. The only situation in which you'd want to give up your move action (as an initiator) is if you're already next to the enemy, in which case they'll probably want to attack you anyway so they can get their full attack in and avoid AoOs for leaving to hit someone else. I mean, I guess it's useful if you have a flanking buddy whom you want to keep alive, but that's about it.

[sideswipe]

this thread the other day talked about the best tank. so just add the ability to make them attack you on top.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323442

[Diarmuid]

Knight doesn't work that well, since it's a low DC that only works against intelligent opponents, and attacking the creature breaks the effect. The only foolproof way of tanking is actually being a legitimate threat that the enemy wants to eliminate first.

I cant find anywhere in the "Test of Mettle" ability where attacking the creature breaks the effect, unless you mean others attacking it which does in fact break it. In that scenario, you work out the tactics with your team so that they know not to interfere when you single the big bad guy out and let them deal with the other threats.

[XmonkTad]

No mention of Incarnate? Vitality Belt gives you a good amount of extra HP, and other soulmelds can give you immunity to energy drain, "damage reduction" to ability damage, energy resistances, and other stuff that's useful for a tank to soak up.

Of course, the best defence is a good offence.

[Person_Man]

My suggestions are Incarnate, Cleric, Crusader, Druid, or Psychic Warrior.

[Flickerdart]

I cant find anywhere in the "Test of Mettle" ability where attacking the creature breaks the effect, unless you mean others attacking it which does in fact break it. In that scenario, you work out the tactics with your team so that they know not to interfere when you single the big bad guy out and let them deal with the other threats.
A knight is utterly incapable of facing down "the big bad guy" alone, and there's no guarantee there will be anything left for the other, useful party members to do. I mean, you could have a party of buffers buffing the one knight who fights, but building an entire party around a mediocre strategy is going too far just to make the poor guy feel useful.

[DR27]

A knight is utterly incapable of facing down "the big bad guy" alone, and there's no guarantee there will be anything left for the other, useful party members to do. I mean, you could have a party of buffers buffing the one knight who fights, but building an entire party around a mediocre strategy is going too far just to make the poor guy feel useful.This. The Knight might be the guy you want to take the damage for you, but isn't the guy who can actually kill an enemy. Crusaders make much better tanks. It's interesting to me that the PHBII introduced three classes that actually function well in the roles that they were intended for, and one that doesn't. (Knight)

They really seemed to have a downer on mundane fighters.

[Person_Man]

This. The Knight might be the guy you want to take the damage for you, but isn't the guy who can actually kill an enemy.

I wrote the Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429). And in his defense, he has full BAB and get's Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, and Trample as bonus Feats (though not as quickly as he should). Using a lance two handed with Power Attack, you're going to be dealing some decent damage numbers. Not on the same level as Crusader or Psychic Warrior, but respectable. And how much damage you need to deal per round is very very dependent upon your DM, not some predetermined threshold.

Also, shameless plus for my homebrew fix, the Knight Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16056437).

[Chronos]

Quoth DR27:

It's interesting to me that the PHBII introduced three classes that actually function well in the roles that they were intended for, and one that doesn't. (Knight)
Beguiler and duskblade function fine, but it's tough to even say what the Dragon Shaman was intended to do, because whatever it was, he mostly doesn't. You breathe once or twice in a combat, and then what do you do?

[Diarmuid]

The knight doesnt need to kill the big bad guy by himself, he just needs to keep him occupied while the rest of the group can mop up any escorts he might have and then the group can maul the big bad guy with action economy.

[Flickerdart]

The knight doesnt need to kill the big bad guy by himself, he just needs to keep him occupied while the rest of the group can mop up any escorts he might have and then the group can maul the big bad guy with action economy.
He can't actually do this, though, since anything that's a big bad guy will most likely both have the Will save to resist the feeble DC, and the offensive power to beat the knight into the ground within a couple rounds of combat, too quick for the others to deal with anything that they wouldn't have been able to simply ignore.

[watchwood]

I have a few notes on the subject that you may find interesting. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319607)

[DR27]

Beguiler and duskblade function fine, but it's tough to even say what the Dragon Shaman was intended to do, because whatever it was, he mostly doesn't. You breathe once or twice in a combat, and then what do you do?Dragon Shamans make decent melee supporters, which is what the designer was trying to make. That doesn't make them particularly interesting to play. Breath, charge, auras/power attack. Heal out of battle. But at least it does what it says it does.

The knight doesn't manage to keep it's promises.

[Darth Stabber]

Mmo style tanking is not a very good strategy in d&d. A warrior type with a polearm/spiked chain, combat reflexes and improved trip is pretty good for getting enemies tied up and not attacking other party members. At mid levels a black tentacles spell is about the best "tank" you can get. Also getting summons absorb the brunt of an enemy attack is better than having a party member take hits. Finally killing things is a far more efficient use of rounds than simply not dying. An übercharger usually kills whatever you point it at and has enough HP to soak up possible return blows (since his ac is likely in the single digits), and if the wizard or cleric can spare a buff or two for him he will give you a much better return on investment than a knight.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragonborn Water Orc Mineral Warrior, single-classed Crusader. Get the Heart aspect from Dragonborn with the feat Entangling Exhalation, and use it as often as possible. Entangled opponents will be much less likely to just walk around the tank to attack more vulnerable foes, and the constant damage from the breath attacks will make him perceived as a credible threat. Get Stone Power for temporary hp, and Devote Spirit healing strikes. Ideally you want some sort of reach weapon that can hit adjacent (kusari-gama and shield) with Combat Reflexes and Stand-Still. In this case good tanking is all about good positioning, both for the tank and for the rest of the party. There needs to be some sort of 'offtank' for opponents that sneak around behind the party, such as an animal companion or wild cohort that can trip/grapple such as a war-trained riding dog or a fleshraker, with warbeast of course.

[Calimehter]

What about the Good Karma feat from Complete Scoundrel?

It requires investment in luck feats, has limited uses, and a successful hit on you scores extra damage . . . but the attack redirect is 100% successful, and works vs. ranged attacks as well.

[Flickerdart]

What about the Good Karma feat from Complete Scoundrel?

It requires investment in luck feats, has limited uses, and a successful hit on you scores extra damage . . . but the attack redirect is 100% successful, and works vs. ranged attacks as well.
If you're willing to devote multiple feats to the scheme, then Dutiful Guardian is a better feat to use, since it's unlimited use, has a 10ft range, and switches you places (so you can tank an entire full attack rather than just one sword swing).

[Drachasor]

Mmo style tanking is not a very good strategy in d&d. A warrior type with a polearm/spiked chain, combat reflexes and improved trip is pretty good for getting enemies tied up and not attacking other party members. At mid levels a black tentacles spell is about the best "tank" you can get. Also getting summons absorb the brunt of an enemy attack is better than having a party member take hits. Finally killing things is a far more efficient use of rounds than simply not dying. An übercharger usually kills whatever you point it at and has enough HP to soak up possible return blows (since his ac is likely in the single digits), and if the wizard or cleric can spare a buff or two for him he will give you a much better return on investment than a knight.

Indeed. MMO-tanking is bad strategy in most games. It's incredibly artificial and requires a lot of specific mechanics to work. MMO-combat in general is patently, ridiculously silly and requires enemies to be complete morons.

[Calimehter]

If you're willing to devote multiple feats to the scheme, then Dutiful Guardian is a better feat to use, since it's unlimited use, has a 10ft range, and switches you places (so you can tank an entire full attack rather than just one sword swing).

Say, that is good.

Good Karma is not wholly without merits - you don't have to guess the attack target ahead of time (admittedly this is not usually hard to do) and the "prereq" feats (i.e other luck feats) are more flexible to use when you are not tanking. Its also in the Completes, which are listed a bit more often in 'sourcebooks available for campaign X' than DotU (which is why I missed it- I'm not used to having that one available to look over).

But yeah, at the end of the day I think I'd take Dutiful Guardian.

[Invader]

You guys aren't giving the knight enough credit. He might not be the best tanky class at higher levels but we have one in the campaign in running now and mettle has worked great so far up to level 6.

[Flickerdart]

You guys aren't giving the knight enough credit. He might not be the best tanky class at higher levels but we have one in the campaign in running now and mettle has worked great so far up to level 6.
Well, yeah. But as the levels tick up, you'll start to notice that a tertiary stat doesn't scale quickly enough to match enemy Will saves (which are preposterously low at the early levels, frequently 0 or lower!), and neither do the knight's defenses.