Build Challenge: No ones built like Gaston!

[Hand_of_Vecna]

If it isn't obvious I'm looking for a build for the greatest Disney Hero; Gaston. He seems to have a lot of aspects that add up to make him difficult to model. Using the song "Gaston" as the primary source;


"Every guy here'd love to be you, Gaston
Even when taking your lumps
There's no man in town as admired as you
You're everyone's favorite guy
Everyone's awed and inspired by you
And it's not very hard to see why!

No one's slick as Gaston
No one's quick as Gaston"

He has to have decent numbers in at least some social checks to account for his popularity, the circumstance bonus for being the town's greatest hero will only go so far.

"No one's neck's as incredibly thick as Gaston's"

Setting aside any connection between stats and biometrics, at this point in the song he breakes a leather belt around his neck by flexing. He needs to be able to make high break dc's or sunder with an unarmed strike.

"No one's been like Gaston
A king pin like Gaston.
No one's got a swell cleft in his chin like Gaston.
As a specimen, yes, I'm intimidating!"

An aura of fear or awe would be cool, but this can fall under the decent social checks already listed.

"My what a guy, that Gaston!
Give five "hurrahs!" Give twelve "hip-hips!"
Gaston is the best and the rest is all drips!
No one fights like Gaston
Douses lights like Gaston
In a wrestling match nobody bites like Gaston!"

Gaston jumps of three men and seems to grapple them all with ease. Bite doesn't need stats, it's obviously just an unarmed strike, since he didn't maim the guy.

"For there's no one as burly and brawny.
As you see, I've got biceps to spare"

He lifts a bench with three women on it over his head with one arm.


"Not a bit of him's scraggly or scrawny
and every last inch of me's covered with hair!
No one hits like Gaston
Matches wits like Gaston"

Gaston's way of matching wits is batting aside a shessboard, but it would be nice for him to have a way of having his Gordian Knot style solutions accepted as solutions.

"In a spitting match nobody spits like Gaston.
I'm especially good at expectorating! Ptoooie!
Ten points for Gaston!"

As trivial as it may seem, I consider the ability to be good at stupidly obscure things that come along important. Alternatively, max ranks in something silly like Perform:Feats of Manliness.

"When I was a lad I ate four dozen eggs
Ev'ry morning to help me get large
And now that I'm grown I eat five dozen eggs
So I'm roughly the size of a barge!

No one shoots like Gaston.
Makes those beauts like Gaston."

Needs to be decent with ranged weapons as well, personally, I'd say he only needs to use a gun if their prevalent enough in his region that their treated as martial or if proficiency is available as part of a decent regional feat.

"Then goes tromping around
Wearing boots like Gaston!"


Inhuman stomping abilities would be cool, but unnecessary since he doesn't hurt or knockdown anyone with his stomping.

"I use antlers in all of my decorating!"

I suppose there's no proof that he actually does his own taxidermy and home decoration, but it wouldn't hurt.

Other notes on abilities.

He's Illiterate. Simple to take a trait, but it is a small limit on refluffed things.

Based on the choices he makes in his fight with the Beast; though he's formidable unarmed, weapons are probably at least a slight upgrade.

Now obviously, the easiest way to make him would be to just make him higher level than everything around him to the point that his cross class skills blow the peons of the village out of the water, but that's too easy and would make him unplayable as a character and a non challenge as an encounter to PC's near his level. I'd like to set the bar at him being level 6 or so and besting member's of NPC classes of equal or near equal level who were built to be good at the things he beats them at.

My own build ideas.

Cheating, but Homebrew Strength based Factotum.

A Marshall 1/Unarmed Warblade 1/Bard X

Motivate Strengh. Utilize (abuse) the DMG suggestion to sometimes allow skills to run of different stats to have STR based every skill that remotely makes sense and Bardic Knack and/or STR based Perform: Flex Muscles with various perform to X tricks.

I/m not very familiar with Incarnum. I'm working on it, finally trying to get past the fluff, which is godawful imho. But i do know that that both Incarnate and Totemist are strong, versatile and Constitution based. Is it within reason to build an Incarnum character that doesn't look like a spiky, scaly, clawed freak. I suppose it doesn't matter, my group is o.k with the level of refluff with homebrew tweaks that would turn claws into slams. Related question, does anyone feel that the "obviousness" of Incarnum is an important balancing factor?

[Calimehter]

Its really too bad that it wouldn't kick in until a crazy late level, but the idea of performing Exemplar shenanigans with the Perform (Feats of Manliness) skill is priceless. :smallbiggrin:

For Level 6 . . . hmmm . . .

STR is the key stat, good CON and decent CHA are a must. Maybe don't need so much of the other 3, though I wouldn't want to dump INT too much. You want a few skill points, and Gaston does have a bit of cunning to him from time to time.

HuMAN Paragon 3 would get him Perform as a permanent class skill and boost the various hunting skills he would need, and would also allow him to boost STR - and plus, its hard to think of a more thematic class option.

The rest would probably be just Fighter 3 - Climb and Jump are showcased in the final battle with the Beast, and of course thanks to HuMAN Paragon he could continue to max out his Perform (Feats of Manliness) skill. Fighter 3 is obviously a low-op choice, but I couldn't think of anything else that really fit, and I wasn't sure if you dropped multiclass penalties. Maybe Ranger 1 to keep up his hunting skills, or possibly Barbarian 1 for rage boosts (he does get angry rather easily in the movie) and/or Pounce access (for high-op campaigns)

I can't think of a great way to get Diplomacy or that via strength, but Leadership at Level 6 at least gets him cronies, and digging up Might Makes Right from Races of Faerun (3.0 material - gives STR boost to Leadership score) makes it even more thematic.

Feats would have to be Unarmed Combat for sure, and then just various enhancements to athletic skills and generic combat boosts. He's a pretty good shot with a firearm, but I dunno if you'd want to invest in Weapon Focus for something like that. What you pick for feats probably depends on your Op level.

The Prodigy option from DMG II also gives a STR boost and a further boost to STR checks w/o boosting Gaston's CR (though it makes him ECL 8 as a PC) if you want to go that route. For what its worth, the associated artwork in the book actually shows a guy benching an anvil, which isn't all that different from benching a . . . bench.

[Slipperychicken]

If you ask me, I think he's a Bard with good physical stats, low Int/Wis, most of his skill points in social skills and Perform (Sing), a feat in EWP (Blunderbuss), and possibly the Leadership feat (to represent Lefou and the townsfolks' loyalty toward him).

He doesn't need to be amazing at melee, since he was soloed by the Beast (who is basically a werewolf thing).

He clearly isn't trying to be a melee fighter, since he completely forgot to bring a melee weapon to the Beast's castle (he actually ripped a chunk off the roof decorations to use as a weapon). His weapon of choice seems to be a longbow (perhaps he would have used his blunderbuss if it wasn't raining that day?), which indicates that he's using his Strength to pump damage with a Composite bow.


I think his build would look something like:

Human Bard 6

Strength 18
Dex 16
Con 12-14
Dump Int
Dump Wis
Cha >16


Feats:
1: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
3: EWP (Firearm/Blunderbuss)
6: Leadership

[Summerstorm]

Hm... not trying to go overboard.

He is a Half-giant (but somehow on the lower body mass side)
(He now has stomp and powerful build and Str+)

Then he takes his Bard-Levels and such (But needs Power attack and Cleave)

Then he prestiges out into "War Hulk" -Miniture Handbook for +Strength (He qualifies perhaps because of his powerful build)

Problem is: he can no longer use his skills very effectively. (Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma skills (except intimidate)) are assumed to be rank 0 when you become a War Hulk (Feature is called "No Time to Think" - which is thematicly good)

[(Un)Inspired]

Hand_of_Vecna... Your post is beautiful... Dissecting his song and breaking it down into dnd mechanics is brilliant.

But he's a paladin right? He tries to marry a girl that is considered strange by the entire village because he sees her true beauty behind her unhealthy fixation on books. As soon as he discovers a threat to his community (which just happens to be a tyrant that was cursed for being heartless) he mounts an expedition to destroy it.

Yeah he has low wis but that only explains why he's never seen casting and hasn't taken battle blessing. He may be kinda dumb but he's a paladin for crying out loud! Do you have any idea how MAD they are? He had to dump int.

[Slipperychicken]

But he's a paladin right? He tries to marry a girl that is considered strange by the entire village because he sees her true beauty behind her unhealthy fixation on books. As soon as he discovers a threat to his community (which just happens to be a tyrant that was cursed for being heartless) he mounts an expedition to destroy it.

Bribing an insane-asylum official to imprison Belle's dad and coerce her into marriage? Classic Paladin behavior :smallbiggrin:

[(Un)Inspired]

Bribing an insane-asylum official to imprison Belle's dad and coerce her into marriage? Classic Paladin behavior :smallbiggrin:

Did you see Belle's fathers inventions? They were legitimately dangerous to the community. He paid money out of his own pocket to protect those around him and to get the man the help he so clearly needed. Without a father an unemployed young woman in those days was in serious trouble. Honestly he's a hero for offering to marry her.

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe he could dip a level into a fighter-type class for more feats and class features?


Did you see Belle's fathers inventions? They were legitimately dangerous to the community. He paid money out of his own pocket to protect those around him and to get the man the help he so clearly needed. Without a father an unemployed young woman in those days was in serious trouble. Honestly he's a hero for offering to marry her.



D'ARQUE: Maurice is harmless.
GASTON: The point is, Belle would do anything to keep him from being
locked up.
LEFOU: Yeah, even marry him!

BELLE: (To D'ARQUE.) No, you can't do this! (D'ARQUE shakes her off and walks away.)
GASTON: Tsk, tsk, tsk. Poor Belle. It's a shame about your father.
BELLE: You know he's not crazy, Gaston.
GASTON: I might be able to clear up this little misunderstanding, if...
BELLE: If what?
GASTON: If you marry me.
BELLE: What?
GASTON: One little word, Belle. That's all it takes.
BELLE: Never!
GASTON: Have it your way. (Turns and walks away slowly, playing hard to get.)
MAURICE: (Being thrown into the wagon.) Belle? (She runs back into the house.) Let go of me!

Real heroism right there.

[(Un)Inspired]

Bribing an insane-asylum official to imprison Belle's dad and coerce her into marriage? Classic Paladin behavior :smallbiggrin:


Maybe he could dip a level into a fighter-type class for more feats and class features?




Real heroism right there.


Ok so maybe he might be a getting close to sort of breaking his vows kinda (sounds like character growth! Maybe trade out some paladin levels for blackguard...). But Maurice isn't harmless! He's inventions are legitimately dangerous and he's seriously crazy.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Real heroism right there.


I'm not a hardcore Gaston apoligist, and this is his darkest moment, but . . .

While D'Arque is clearly evil, Gaston is doing doing what he believes is in Belle's best interest. Maurice is crazy, he's about a half step removed from a mad scientist and could easily build a device that hurts or kills himself, Belle or random townspeople any day now. The only thing that could keep him in line, short of incarceration is being in Gaston's guest room, where he can keep an eye on him.

Though even viewed generously, this association with evil disqualifies Gaston from Paladinhood.

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm not a hardcore Gaston apoligist, and this is his darkest moment, but . . .

While D'Arque is clearly evil, Gaston is doing doing what he believes is in Belle's best interest. Maurice is crazy, he's about a half step removed from a mad scientist and could easily build a device that hurts or kills himself, Belle or random townspeople any day now. The only thing that could keep him in line, short of incarceration is being in Gaston's guest room, where he can keep an eye on him.

Though even viewed generously, this association with evil disqualifies Gaston from Paladinhood.

So... Are we thinking paladin of tyranny/hexblade/blackguard with D'Arque as his Hexblade dark companion and Lefou as an imp familiar?

[Slipperychicken]

D'Arque as his Hexblade dark companion

I generally figure that if Gaston has to make a bribe to get the guy's help, he's not really a class feature.

[(Un)Inspired]

I generally figure that if Gaston has to make a bribe to get the guy's help, he's not really a class feature.

Eh, I think that's just how Hexblade class features work.

[SoraWolf7]

Pretty sure Gaston is a hunter, even though he does break out into song often (like most animated disney characters). He uses a longbow (there's the strength score again), and likes trapping and hunting. However, as we can tell, most of his things are bravado, as he led a mob to attempt to storm the Beast's castle. So the real question is how DO we choose to build Gaston?

Alignment: That depends on how you see him. For me, he's either Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil, he's mostly self-serving and only interested in physical perfection. He just used the legend of the Beast and her father's cries for help to further his goal of marrying Belle and turning her into his housewife. He didn't really intend to do anything with Belle's father until Lefou mentioned that she'd be willing to do anything for him.

Stats: Maxed STR and CHA, cause he obviously has those maxed since he's very strong for a human and apparently the best-looking man in the village. However, he seems to have Low INT and WIS. He even says that "thinking is a dangerous pastime" so he even says himself that he doesn't like those who think for themselves or think differently, or those with high Wisdom, like Belle's father, or high Intelligence, like Belle.

Class: Now here's where the trick is. He's either a ranger for hunting (as noted by all those antlers), a bard and using that charisma score to perform for people and diplomacy people, or some other class that has Diplomacy as a class skill and allows him to be a hunter still.

Anything else I see is fair game.

[Zonugal]

I'd probably just go with a simple build like Human Ranger 6.

Of course the town loves him, he's likely the only character with actual adventure levels.

I don't imagine it would be hard for a sixth-level npc with some nice charisma to dominate a small French town.

[Urpriest]

I really want to stat him as an Incarnate. On the day of the spitting contest, he shaped Acidic Spittle. Probably Chaos Incarnate, though maybe Evil if we want to be dark. Sometimes he's got the social skills, sometimes not, all depending on where he puts his essentia.

[Calimehter]

I get the idea behind wanting to use Bard . . . but if we merely consider "breaking out into song" as a sign of Bard class levels, then virtually every Disney character ever - including just about everyone else in Beauty and the Beast - has Bard levels too.

[TroubleBrewing]

Hilariously enough, the Neanderthal race from Frostburn is big, strong, eligible for Human Paragon, and always illiterate. Unless you take a Wizard level.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I get the idea behind wanting to use Bard . . . but if we merely consider "breaking out into song" as a sign of Bard class levels, then virtually every Disney character ever - including just about everyone else in Beauty and the Beast - has Bard levels too.

No, Bard is a mechanical choice. The idea is to use perform, either flexing or something silly like "feats of manliness" that would cover stupid human tricks like spitting contests then using various perform to X tricks including the level one Bard Spell Undersong which gives you Performance in place of Concentration which opens a lot more tricks. Basically he's accomplishing everything through pure machismo.

Further, Inspire Courage through this custom perform means he's buffing himself with his own machismo.


I really want to stat him as an Incarnate. On the day of the spitting contest, he shaped Acidic Spittle. Probably Chaos Incarnate, though maybe Evil if we want to be dark. Sometimes he's got the social skills, sometimes not, all depending on where he puts his essentia.

I for one would be very interested in seeing this. As I previously stated I'm a Incarnate Novice, I've always been repelled by the fluff. However, I have recently ordered the book due to it being quite cheap and seeing it's benefits through feat dipping extolled again and again. The Incarnate fluff seems a lot more palatable to me than the general fluff.

I think I'll start a seperate thread to ask some Incarnum questions, though i may read an Incarnum Guide first.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Hilariously enough, the Neanderthal race from Frostburn is big, strong, eligible for Human Paragon, and always illiterate. Unless you take a Wizard level.

I was actually thinking about Neanderthal, the only problem is, you'd have to point buy a 16 CHA to get a 14 after the -2, not sure if the +2 STR and Con is worth that and the human bonus feat. Though I may be playing Gaston in a Ysgard game which would make the temperature tolerance worthwhile since there will most likely be no full casters and Ysgard's Earth terrain and weather cranked to 11 will be a regular threat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take the Bravado and No Time For Book Learning flaws (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30), and get the Jotunbrud regional feat which basically gives you powerful build without the benefits of increased weapon size. This makes him naturally good at anything that a size bonus would apply to (grappling), and bad at smart-guy stuff. Bravado just seems fitting, you can represent the slick/quick with maybe the Quick trait with Evasive Reflexes and/or balance/tumble skill tricks. You wouldn't need to give him as high a strength score due to the significant size bonus he would be benefiting from.

Bard would actually work out pretty well, given all the available alternate class features (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=3o09i4arp5a9auh2gtgv088n33&topic=8284.msg276430#msg276430):
Savage Bard would give him more appropriate class skills for a hunter.
Inspire Awe instead of Inspire Courage gives him a fear effect.
Eberron Bard to trade out a song like Suggestion for Haunting Melody makes his Inspire Awe even scarier.
Bardic Knack instead of Bardic Knowledge makes him good at obscure things, except Knowledge checks due to the above flaw. Use Martial Study (Devoted Spirit) to get Intimidate as a class skill.

I don't think Leadership would be appropriate, having a nearly worthless tag-along is nothing special and Diplomacy can easily sway the town's opinions and rally them to march on the castle. His weapons are basically what a hunter would be able to use at that time. Charisma should definitely be his highest stat, followed by strength, then Dex/Con.

Oh, and throw in Hidden Talent: Stomp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/stomp.htm) and/or Boots of Stomping (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#bootsofStomping).

[(Un)Inspired]

Jotunbrun is absolutely necessary. He is the size of a barge after all.

[Slipperychicken]

I get the idea behind wanting to use Bard . . . but if we merely consider "breaking out into song" as a sign of Bard class levels, then virtually every Disney character ever - including just about everyone else in Beauty and the Beast - has Bard levels too.

It's partly the singing, but mostly the fact that he tried (and generally succeeded, with the exception of Belle) to get his way through social manipulation.


The main example is that, when Belle uses her magic mirror to portray the Beast as a person, Gaston is almost immediately able to turn the situation around and use fear to convince the townsfolk that the Beast is a threat and must be killed. He does this when a more conventional/"heroic" fantasy character would have infiltrated the castle personally.

Prior to the events of the film, he had gained the town's adoration, trust, and respect, which requires social skills on his part, as he wasn't particularly wealthy, nor did he possess overwhelming force. While he was physically imposing, he certainly wasn't strong enough to keep the entire town cowed through force alone.

In his efforts to court Belle, he initially tried seduction (which would have worked on the other women in the town), and when that failed he tried intimidation, and finally to use rumors of her father's apparent insanity as leverage.

He successfully discredited Maurice (belle's father) as insane, and was able to pull strings and have him thrown into an asylum, even though the warden didn't believe Maurice posed a threat.


[Edit]
I would have suggested Ranger (to represent his hunting skill), but social skills are cross-class for them. Bards however, get 3/4 BAB and social skills, which seems a better fit for Gaston.

Bard5/Ranger1 could work. It would get him Track and Favored Enemy, although his social skills would suffer slightly. Gaston definitely didn't have a pseudo-magical Suggestion ability available to him either.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Jotunbrun is absolutely necessary. He is the size of a barge after all.

Roughly.10 characters

[Calimehter]

Fair points.

I still have reservations about Bard. Spellcasting is hard to explain away, and I'm not convinced that his ability to persuade people to admire and follow him can't be duplicated by something as simple as taking Perform and/or Diplomacy via Human Paragon and simply being above average as far as class level and CHA compared to others.

However, I do see where people are coming from as far as the mechanical representations of influence. I had forgotten about Savage Bard - I could totally see that working well.

[GallóglachMaxim]

While D'Arque is clearly evil\

Have to disagree with your characterisation there, D'Arque is not evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkIsNotEvil).


Yes, just for the pun, carry on.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Have to disagree with your characterisation there, D'Arque is not evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkIsNotEvil).


Yes, just for the pun, carry on.

I'm honestly not sure if this is just a Pun, or a Pun and a serious argument.

One can argue for Gaston, saying that he believes what he's doing is in everyone's best interest. D'Arque literally says "Oh, that is despicable, I love it!" Unless he's working a long con and acting this way to entrap Gaston, he's taking pleasure in the act beyond his cash payment.


. Spellcasting is hard to explain away

It's actually quite easy to explain away.

1. The character isn't a prepared caster, so he doesn't spend time planning out his spells for the day in the morning.

2. With no ranks in Knowledge Arcana a character can fail to recognize their own abilities as spell casting.

3. The person playing the character needs to not pick any spells known that don't fit the character's theme and won't be viewed as magic by themselves or casual observers.

Lvl 6 Bard Spells Known
0-Resistance-takes a second to psych himself up before entering a dangerous situation

Prestidigitation-Not used to it's full potential, utilizes clean when he brushes dirt from his clothes and always has a breeze blow back his hair and cloak at dramatically appropriate times.

Know Direction- Hunting Skill

Easy Math - Good Instincts

Erase- There aren't any pictures! There aren't even . . . what do you call those squiggly things?

Detect Magic- Finds Magic stuff, cause perception.



1-
Undersong-Invisible effect, mechanically important

Alarm- Only on his bedroom/campsite, uncanny Instincts/Light Sleeper

FeatherFall - Surviving Falls by Luck/Skill/Toughness

Detect Secret Doors, Expeditious Retreat, Cause Fear, Remove Fear none of these should need explanation.

I could even argue for Charm person to enhance his charms.

Accelerated Movement, Catsfeet, Amplify . . .

2-
Enthrall-Captivate Audience

Locate Object-Logic defying tracking

Misdirection-Even the mighty Wizard cannot hunt the hunter!


So, I'll admit Detect magic is a stretch, but it was easy to find more "not magic" level 1 and 2 Bard spells then a level 20 Bard can know and I'm sure I could do that for 3-6.

I think there was a 0 level Dragon Magazine spell that mundanely sharpened and edged weapon and gave it +1 damage on it's first attack that lasted 24 hours.

Also pathfinder's nerfed mending with a long cast time would fit.

[Greenish]

I get the idea behind wanting to use Bard . . . but if we merely consider "breaking out into song" as a sign of Bard class levels, then virtually every Disney character ever - including just about everyone else in Beauty and the Beast - has Bard levels too.Are you suggesting they don't?

[TroubleBrewing]

Are you suggesting they don't?

I think it goes deeper; there are no NPC classes in Disneyland, so everyone defaults to Bard instead.

Everyone.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I think it goes deeper; there are no NPC classes in Disneyland, so everyone defaults to Bard instead.

Everyone.

I always assumed the singing was a Planar Trait.

I made Charisma based Druid an ACF and made a feat for them to use their Perform checks in place of all Crafts and Professions.

[Valwyn]

As soon as he discovers a threat to his community (which just happens to be a tyrant that was cursed for being heartless) he mounts an expedition to destroy it.

I would like to point out that Beast (Adam?) was 10 years old when a creepy old lady showed up at his house while his parents were gone/dead. Stranger Danger, anyone? And the witch/enchantress cursed his servants as well. What about their families? Did she go visit them and explain why daddy would be trapped in a castle for up to 11 years? (I say we burn the witch. :smallmad:)

I'm guessing going through puberty in that body, having the mind of a 10-year-old, and knowing he has a time limit to get some girl to fall in love with him or die (along with possibly all his servants) didn't do much good for his personality.


But anyway. I'd say Gaston is about a Barbarian 1 (rage)/Ranger 2 (ranged style)/Bard 3 (Perform: manliness).

Choose spells that buff him in combat and fluff them as a side effect of his testosterone poisoning.

[angry_bear]

He seems lawful evil to me. He's obsessed with maintaining the social norm, and he resorts to bribery, as well as intimidation to get what he wants. As far as build goes, I'd keep it fairly simple. High physical abilities and charisma, 2 levels in barbarian, and 4 in ranger. Can't remember all the weapons he used in the movie, but from the top of my head I think it was a bow, a blunderbuss, a club, and I think a dagger right?

[Angelalex242]

Well, Gaston's not as good a bard as Ariel, say...and ya know...

What if he were a ranger/rogue?

Rogue has most social skills, more skill points then the bard, and it explains that sneak attack he does right before he falls.