Incarnate question.

[D4rkh0rus]

Im thinking of making an Incarnate, probably incarnate 20. not sure if theres anything thats better that doesnt add extra things (I know theres PRC to theurge and stuff, I just dont want to theurge though) (ad the necrocarnate is evil aparently)

I would primarily fill the skill monkey role. which skills are undecided as of yet, but I do wonder...

Is there a build (feats, soulmends, etc) that is capable of filling every role of the skillmonkey chart at any time? (like having a ton of selected soulmends (or whatever the non armor version is called) that you can shift essentia to and from to effectively have all the skillmonkey skills at a swift action's call?)

(by skillmonkey chart I mean, Bluff and/or Diplomacy, Hide/move silent, Search/DD/OL, Spot/Listen, UMD, tracking/handle animal, disguise/forgery)

Or, is there a build that can perform skillmonkey duty if it knows what the upcoming day's stuff will be and at the same time, or rather separated by a a swift action at most, be able to perform decently in combat encounters? (Like decent dmg. capable of killing non boss mobs and big things each turn at the very least....).

Obviously Im talking about high enough bonuses/totals to end up with what a person maxing a stat has, or at least close to that.

[malonkey1]

Or, is there a build that can perform skillmonkey duty if it knows what the upcoming day's stuff will be and at the same time, or rather separated by a a swift action at most, be able to perform decently in combat encounters? (Like decent dmg. capable of killing non boss mobs and big things each turn at the very least....).

Well, as it turns out, Incarnates make a surprisingly good skillmonkey class with prep time due to their Soulmelds. Personally, I'd try to get as much of an Essentia pool as possible so you can use your skillmonkey Soulmelds to their fullest. Additionally, Think a little on your alignment.

Lawful is gonna be good for landing hits in Radiance, as they receive an attack bonus.
Good is, ahem, good, for melee, as it provides some AC to let you wade into combat.

As far as Prestige Classes, you're better off not bothering. Incarnate does best with minimal dipping unless you are trying to specialize in something, and with the exception of Necrocarnate and Ironsoul Forgemaster, the meld progressions kinda suck. That said, I should point out that if you want to get some unique crafting-based bonuses, roll up a Dwarf Incarnate and go into Ironsoul Forgemaster. The chakra progression's not half bad, and you can get some magic properties on your crafted weapons/armor by investing Essentia.

Dat's just me, doe.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Your melds can get you pretty hefty bonuses to more or less any skill you want, although it's mostly a "I'm good at what I prepared to be able to do" competence-- you get a limited ability to reshape your melds at later levels, but apart from that...

It's also pretty easy to make an incarnate tank-- they get tons of defensive boosts. Damage is harder, though-- your offensive melds are kind of crappy, and you don't have the BAB to really make up for it. (Though that depends on level-- you can be pretty nasty at low levels)

Obligatory handbook link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6920.msg226743).

[Pluto!]

Dipping level 1 into Rogue, Feat Rogue or Factotum and spending a feat on Able Learner wouldn't be the worst thing because the classed skill points do add up, but if you're just looking for numerical bonuses to skills, that's pretty much what Incarnates do.

Generally the harder part with straight Incarnate builds is getting those numerical bonuses and still having something proactive to do in fights, and that's where I'd generally start dipping into ToB/Ironsoul Forgemaster or one of the Theurges. Otherwise, you'll probably need to prepare yourself to spend a lot of time yelling at bluish zombies or waggling disposable wands.

[XmonkTad]

You won't be a skillmonkey with "a swift action's notice " but you can do it with a night's notice. Look through the meld list. There are tons of melds that give bonuses (usually to 2 skills) and a few that give things like trapfinding and UMD. Incarnate 20 is the best Incarnate build.

For feats, you want more essentia and greater soulmeld essentia capacity (not the actual name of the feat).

Incarnates that have skillmonkey melds shaped will be able to do well in combat, if they have combat focused melds bound. At low levels this will be tricky. With even a "Medium OP" party, you will be outshone in combat by swift hunters, totemists, and chargers. You'll hit every time (if you're lawful and in meele or chaotic and ranged) but even evil Incarnates do more damage.

Raw DPR is not the area where Incarnates shine.

[D4rkh0rus]

I see that the soulmends cap at 5 essentia, how can you raise that? cuz it would total a +10 to the 2 skill soulmends

[Karnith]

I see that the soulmends cap at 5 essentia, how can you raise that? cuz it would total a +10 to the 2 skill soulmends
By default the maximum Essentia capacity at 20th level is 4, actually. However, Incarnates get to exceed that limit by 2 for their soulmelds, thanks to their Expanded Soulmeld Capacity class feature. You may additionally take the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat, which increases by one the Essentia capacity of a single soulmeld each day (or whenever you choose to shape your soulmelds). Incarnum Focuses (Foci?) increase the Essentia capacity of soulmelds occupying the corresponding chakra by 1.

Additionally, many skill-boosting soulmelds give a bonus to skill checks even without investing essentia, usually on the order of +2 or +4.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I see that the soulmends cap at 5 essentia, how can you raise that? cuz it would total a +10 to the 2 skill soulmends

It's actually 4 normally but incarnate gets a limit raise twice during its progression allowing for 6 for his soulmelds and essentia focus items can be used to raise that by 1 more. Many of the soulmelds also have a native bonus before any essentia is invested at all.

Even so, a few real skill points scattered amongst the skills for which higher bonuses are always better is a good idea.

[Chronos]

The answer to the OP's question is no, it is not possible for an incarnate to fully emulate everything a skillmonkey does: There are no soulmelds that give any bonus worth mentioning to Hide or Move Silently, both skills which I would consider essential for a proper skillmonkey.

That said, a little incarnum works very well in a skillmonkey build, just not pure incarnum. You don't even need prestige classes (though at least three levels of Umbral Disciple is very nice): An Incarnate 1 or 2/Rogue X is a better skillmonkey than either class separately.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The answer to the OP's question is no, it is not possible for an incarnate to fully emulate everything a skillmonkey does: There are no soulmelds that give any bonus worth mentioning to Hide or Move Silently, both skills which I would consider essential for a proper skillmonkey.

That said, a little incarnum works very well in a skillmonkey build, just not pure incarnum. You don't even need prestige classes (though at least three levels of Umbral Disciple is very nice): An Incarnate 1 or 2/Rogue X is a better skillmonkey than either class separately.

Shape soulmeld (kruthik claws); +4 competence bonus, +2 per essentia.

With an essentia focus that caps at +18 for an incarnate. The typing is unfortunate, cloak and boots of elvenkind won't stack, but it's otherwise a fairly substantial bonus for a single feat.

[Karnith]

There are no soulmelds that give any bonus worth mentioning to Hide or Move Silently, both skills which I would consider essential for a proper skillmonkey.Are Worg Pelt and Kruthik Claws (both grab-able by Incarnates through Shape Soulmeld) not worth mentioning? Sure, you won't get the bonus from Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, but it's not like that's crippling.

Or are you turned off by the whole competence bonus thing?

With an essentia focus that caps at +18 for an incarnate. The typing is unfortunate, cloak and boots of elvenkind won't stack, but it's otherwise a fairly substantial bonus for a single feat.
Somewhat more significantly, they won't stack with the Shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#shadowGreater) and Silent Moves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#silentMovesGreater) armor properties.

[malonkey1]

The answer to the OP's question is no, it is not possible for an incarnate to fully emulate everything a skillmonkey does: There are no soulmelds that give any bonus worth mentioning to Hide or Move Silently, both skills which I would consider essential for a proper skillmonkey.

You are correct, if you only include Incarnate Soulmelds. However, you are discounting the Shape Soulmeld feat, which offers access to Totemist melds such as:

Worg Pelt: +2+2*Essentia to Hide and Move Silently.
Kruthik Claws: +4+2*Essenta to Hide and Move Silently.
Displacer Mantle: +4+2*Essentia to Hide.
Lamia Belt: +4+2*Essentia to Bluff & Hide.

Take Shape Soulmeld, and sneak away!

EDIT: Swordsage'd twice.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Better yet, take a one- or two-level dip into Totemist. You've only got one essence pool, and capacity is based on total character level. Get a huge bonus to soulmeld versatility at very little cost.

[Chronos]

Which are competence bonuses, and therefore not worth mentioning. If you're making any real effort at Hide and Move Silently, no matter what your class, you're going to have Shadow/Silent Moves armor. And once you have that, the bonus from Kruthak Claws is +0, and you've spent a feat for nothing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Which are competence bonuses, and therefore not worth mentioning. If you're making any real effort at Hide and Move Silently, no matter what your class, you're going to have Shadow/Silent Moves armor. And once you have that, the bonus from Kruthak Claws is +0, and you've spent a feat for nothing.

That's a waste of money unless you really can't afford the feat. 67,500gp vs one feat. The feat scales with level without any further investment and ultimately gets a bonus 3 points higher.

It also has the capacity to add several other abilities, depending on whether you choose the kruthik claws or some other meld, to the character in addition to the skill bonus.

Kruthik claws; significant acid resistance

Worg pelt; increased land speed

Displacer mantle; blur effect, but you're only saving 33,750gp with this one.

Just because you -can- replicate an ability with items doesn't make it automatically superior to do so.

[D4rkh0rus]

Thanks for all the replys, I think I get the Incarnate better...

So basically Its like a rogue but worse in damage and better in skills but requires a crazy amount of planning (5 skill points here, 7 there, 9 over there, etc) to account maximun essentia and a load of feats and at the same time requires some sort of divination for the day just to function?

or Am I missing some buttkicking feature?


if I compared to a Factotum, which class could be a better skillmonkey?

[Nightraiderx]

The only way I can see the skillmonkey get any damage is that you
grab assassin's stance,craven and the indigo strike feat.
That way you are shelling out at more 2d6+8+20 at the end on top of normal
attacks. it's not optimal but at least keeping up in damage.

Another feat worth mentioning is Necrocarnum Acolyte
so if you are looking at any evil soulmelds and you are LN/CN then
you can access to two for the price of one feat.

[Karnith]

Combat for an Incarnate depends on your level and your alignment (also your group's op-level; beyond a certain point some Incarnate combat tactics just aren't going to be effective). At low levels, Dissolving Spittle (for the at-will, ranged touch attack that deals acid damage) is pretty good. You can get an all-right weapon out of Incarnate Weapon (enhancement bonus equal to essentia invested).

At higher levels, viable combat roles depend, at least partially, on your alignment. If you want to hit things, Evil Incarnates can keep up with damage fairly well (albeit at the cost of not being able to do much else), thanks to Incarnate Avatar (+2 insight bonus to damage per essentia invested), Bloodwar Gauntlets (+1 morale bonus to damage per essentia invested), Necrocarnum Weapon (+1 profane bonus to damage per essentia invested against living enemies), and their Incarnum Radiance ability (untyped bonus that scales on your Incarnate level; note the limited uses per day). Chaos Incarnates can make somewhat serviceable archers, given the bonus from their Incarnate Avatar and Sighting Gloves, but I wouldn't recommend it without some fairly heavy investment. All characters can bind Bluesteel Bracers to get a damage bonus (+1 insight bonus per essentia invested). Getting a Skillful weapon is probably going to be worth it at some point to compensate for your poor BAB.

For the Incarnate who doesn't want to be messing around with normal combat (because, let's face it, you'd probably be a Totemist if you wanted to do that), binding Necrocarnum Circlet gets you Necrocarnum zombies, which is really nice. Nongood Incarnates can also get access to the Necrocarnum soulmelds, most importantly Necrocarnum Circlet, via a feat. Dissolving Spittle scales poorly at high levels, but is still an option. UMDing/UPDing can a viable tactic thanks to Mage's Spectacles/Psion's Eyes.

It's worth noting that Good Incarnates aren't really very good at combat, since they're barred from the Necrocarnum soulmelds and most of the Good soulmelds focus on boosting AC (e.g. Incarnate Avatar, Lammasu Mantle, the bind on Armguards of Disruption).

if I compared to a Factotum, which class could be a better skillmonkey?
A Factotum dipping into Incarnate would be better than either single class.

[Psyren]

(ad the necrocarnate is evil aparently)

The adaptation (MoI 135) makes it nearly exalted good, so don't let that turn you off. Totemist 2/Incarnate 5/Necrocarnate 13 opens every chakra in the game, can shape any soulmeld (you can grab the Soulborn-only ones with feats if you really want them, though they really only have one good one), and can keep them all filled to the brim daily.

You can UPD a dorje of quintessence to cart fresh corpses around with you for siphoning on long, combat-less trips.

[Chronos]

Quoth Kelb_Panthera:

That's a waste of money unless you really can't afford the feat. 67,500gp vs one feat. The feat scales with level without any further investment and ultimately gets a bonus 3 points higher.
Other way around: It's a waste of a feat slot unless you really can't afford the money. Your money also scales with level, such that having an appropriate armor is always a small portion of your WBL, but the feat still costs one feat even at low levels where you don't have as many feats available. In other words, both scale in effect, but only the armor scales in cost.

You're also not going to get it to a bonus 3 points higher unless you have 15 levels of Totemist, and are wearing it in your totem chakra (a significant opportunity cost). Short of that, the highest bonus you can get is +14, one less than the armor, and that costs you another feat (there's a reason no one ever bothers with the Stealthy feat).

The Incarnate also has other disadvantages compared to a true skillmonkey. For instance, in order to function as a skillmonkey, an incarnate is going to need to bind Theft Gloves, in order to get Trapfinding. Which means that you can't use the Gloves of Dexterity that every true skillmonkey will have, at least, not without spending yet another feat on Split Chakra.

I suppose that the Incarnate might do better than a rogue if we're dealing with Vow of Poverty, or something. But it's no secret that Vow of Poverty sucks, and that it sucks a little less on an incarnate. For everyone else, you've got that wealth; you might as well use it.

[D4rkh0rus]

The adaptation (MoI 135) makes it nearly exalted good, so don't let that turn you off. Totemist 2/Incarnate 5/Necrocarnate 13 opens every chakra in the game, can shape any soulmeld (you can grab the Soulborn-only ones with feats if you really want them, though they really only have one good one), and can keep them all filled to the brim daily.

You can UPD a dorje of quintessence to cart fresh corpses around with you for siphoning on long, combat-less trips.

An exalted good character that sucks the necrotic soul energy from corpses he keeps inside an extraplanar spess.

Clearly thats a bit of an oxymoron...

[Karnith]

An exalted good character that sucks the necrotic soul energy from corpses he keeps inside an extraplanar spess.
If you read the adaptation, you'll see that the good version of the class channels vivicarnum - "a pure and holy version of necrocarnum, channeled from the purest of unborn souls."

[D4rkh0rus]

If you read the adaptation, you'll see that the good version of the class channels vivicarnum - "a pure and holy version of necrocarnum, channeled from the purest of unborn souls."


That still doesn't alter the fact that you need to carry around corpses...
And not one or two... 10 or 20, inside an extra dimensional space.

And then again, if Im channeling from an unborn soul... arent I effectively killing it?

[Red Fel]

That still doesn't alter the fact that you need to carry around corpses...
And not one or two... 10 or 20, inside an extra dimensional space.

And then again, if Im channeling from an unborn soul... arent I effectively killing it?

It's more like borrowing, really. You'll give it back.

... Probably.

[Psyren]

That still doesn't alter the fact that you need to carry around corpses...
And not one or two... 10 or 20, inside an extra dimensional space.

And then again, if Im channeling from an unborn soul... arent I effectively killing it?

Where'd you get "10 or 20?" :smallconfused:

You start with 7 essentia from your entry classes, and each corpse gives you {half VC, rounded up}, i.e. up to 7 more at capstone, lasting 24 hours. That's 21 essentia total from 2 corpses, more than an Incarnate 17 gets natively. Three corpses gets you to 28. How much essentia could you possibly need??

[D4rkh0rus]

Where'd you get "10 or 20?" :smallconfused:

You start with 7 essentia from your entry classes, and each corpse gives you {half VC, rounded up}, i.e. up to 7 more at capstone, lasting 24 hours. That's 21 essentia total from 2 corpses, more than an Incarnate 17 gets natively. Three corpses gets you to 28. How much essentia could you possibly need??

Enough Essentia to RULE THE WORLD mwuahahahaha. Idk.

[Psyren]

Get an eternal wand of Soul Boon and you can subsist on 2-3 corpses a day easily. That'll give you enough to max out 2 soulmelds, kill somebody and get more. (One of those melds should be your Vivicarnate Circlet so that you have a bruiser Incarnum Zombie bodyguard - two at the capstone.

[Techwarrior]

Which are competence bonuses, and therefore not worth mentioning. If you're making any real effort at Hide and Move Silently, no matter what your class, you're going to have Shadow/Silent Moves armor. And once you have that, the bonus from Kruthak Claws is +0, and you've spent a feat for nothing.

No. Just no. There's not a chance that I'm going to spend twice the value of a competence bonus to put it on my armor slot. If I'm going to spend twice the cost a standard competence item, I'll pay double for a nonstandard bonus on a ring, in which case it stacks with the meld.

The shadow and silent moves armor enhancements suck. They're too expensive, and reduce how much I can effectively spend in my armor slot.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Other way around: It's a waste of a feat slot unless you really can't afford the money. Your money also scales with level, such that having an appropriate armor is always a small portion of your WBL, but the feat still costs one feat even at low levels where you don't have as many feats available. In other words, both scale in effect, but only the armor scales in cost.

You're also not going to get it to a bonus 3 points higher unless you have 15 levels of Totemist, and are wearing it in your totem chakra (a significant opportunity cost). Short of that, the highest bonus you can get is +14, one less than the armor, and that costs you another feat (there's a reason no one ever bothers with the Stealthy feat).

The Incarnate also has other disadvantages compared to a true skillmonkey. For instance, in order to function as a skillmonkey, an incarnate is going to need to bind Theft Gloves, in order to get Trapfinding. Which means that you can't use the Gloves of Dexterity that every true skillmonkey will have, at least, not without spending yet another feat on Split Chakra.

I suppose that the Incarnate might do better than a rogue if we're dealing with Vow of Poverty, or something. But it's no secret that Vow of Poverty sucks, and that it sucks a little less on an incarnate. For everyone else, you've got that wealth; you might as well use it.

Incarnates are not so feat starved that they can't afford one feat to improve their primary ability, shaping incarnum to useful ends, by burning one. It's just not a cut-and-dried decision one way or the other.

Also, incarnate's increased essentia capacity applies to all of the character's soulmelds, not just his incarnate melds. 4 normal, +2 increased essentia capacity, +1 essentia focus = 7 essentia capacity; +4 competence bonus, +2 per essentia; (7*2)+4=18.

It's still 1 point higher than the armor enhancement even without the essentia focus. No serious incarnate is going to be running around without at least one essentia focus item.

[Karnith]

Also, incarnate's increased essentia capacity applies to all of the character's soulmelds, not just his incarnate melds.
Actually, no, it doesn't. The rule that nixes this is in the section on multiclass meldshapers, p. 20. Class abilities that improve soulmeld essentia capacity only apply to soulmelds from that class's list.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, no, it doesn't. The rule that nixes this is in the section on multiclass meldshapers, p. 20. Class abilities that improve soulmeld essentia capacity only apply to soulmelds from that class's list.

That's for multiclass meldshapers. No one's suggesting a totemist dip here.

[Nightraiderx]

Essentia focus items as an add on for normal magic items is awesome and removed the need for Split Chakra feats.

Also, what feats WOULD an incarnate need as a baseline?

[Psyren]

Essentia focus items as an add on for normal magic items is awesome and removed the need for Split Chakra feats.

Also, what feats WOULD an incarnate need as a baseline?

Expanded Soulmeld Capacity is one I always try to get, because you can change which soulmeld you want to apply it to every morning. Improved Essentia Capacity is also good because it applies to every incarnum feat you take simultaneously, though it goes better with a multiclass meldshaper because most of the incarnum feats that have an essentia capacity benefit other classes.

You can never have too much essentia - Bonus Essentia is something you will want. Double Chakra is great as well.

[Person_Man]

Incarnate suggestions/combos you may wish to consider:


Necrocarnum Circlet: Your most important and powerful soulmeld. When bound to your Crown chakra, it lets you summon a necrocarnum zombie (much more useful then a normal zombie) with hit dice limited by your meldshaper level, with a range of 30 ft (unlike Animate Dead, which has a range of touch), at-will, at no cost. It basically gives you a second Tier 4 character to control, which you can use as a tackle dummy, mount, door opener/"trap finder," etc.

Get a Familiar. You can either take 1 level of Sorcerer (which also mostly negates the need for UMD for Sorcerer/Wizard spells) or you can ask your DM to allow the Soulspark Familiar soulmeld to qualify. (By RAW it doesn't. Despite the name, it provides you with a Soulspark, but it doesn't count as a Familiar). Take the Share Soulmeld Feat. Now your Familiar gains the benefits of all of your Soulmelds, which can basically double the effectiveness of many soulmelds. This is particularly noteworthy for soulmelds like Dissolving Spittle, which goes from meh to impressive damage. Real Familiars also have many other side benefits, such as the ability to hold the charge of a touch attack spell (which gives you an action advantage on the first round of combat), Alertness, the ability to Aid Another on certain Skills, and the ability to Share Spells.

Eilservs School Feat: Drow of the Underdark pg 56. When you strike a creature with a magic staff, it deals +1 damage for every 10 charges it contains. And if you strike a creature with both ends, you can activate one of the spells in the staff as a Swift action. Arcane Focus soulmeld bound to Throat adds a Save or Daze effect to any arcane spell (though the Save DC is not impressive, 10 + essentia invested + Wis bonus). Thus you get melee attacks + spell + Save or Daze with a full attack.

Theraputic Mantle: Increases the effectiveness of any "spell or effect that heals hit point damage" on you. The overlooked trick with this soulmeld is that it specifically works on any effect that heals hit points, and not just spells. Fast Healing 1 from the Lesser Vitality spell becomes Fast Healing 1 + essentia invested, an investment in the Divine Spirit stance would mean that every melee attack you make would heal you 2 + essentia invested, a Vampiric Weapon enhancement would heal 1d6 + essentia on each attack, and so on. Stack 3-4 different sources of healing on yourself, throw a couple other defensive soulmelds, and you'll often be at full hit points at the end of every turn.

Astral Vembraces: DR 2 + (2*essentia)/magic. Your most important low level defense.

Vitality Belt: Meldshaper level * essentia invested bonus hit points. Not impressive at first, but it eventually becomes your most important high level defense.

Mantle of Flame: 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia) retributive fire damage whenever an enemy hits you. If you're going to fight on the front line of combat, use this.

Spellward Shirt: Spell Resistance. Daazzix's Vest (DMG II) is 25k and gives +5 to existing SR. Slave to Evil Feat gives +5 against divine spells (and can disrupt divine casting at very high levels). Put them together, and you become 70-95ish% immune to most magic.

Wind Cloak: Impressive DR vs ranged weapons, and when bound to your Shoulders you can Deflect Arrows without a free hand multiple times per round, which basically makes you immune-ish to ranged attacks.

Illusion Veil: Increases the duration of Illusion spells by +1 round per point of essentia (with certain restrictions). Very situational but potentially very useful. For example, a Wand of Swift Invisibility (Spell Compendium) basically becomes a Wand of Invisibility that you can cast as a Swift Action.

Apparition Ribbon gives you the incorporeal subtype (for meldshaper rounds per day) and Crystal Helm gives your attacks the Force descriptor. So you can move around the battlefield like a ghost (enemies have a 50% miss chance against you, you can move through solid objects, Cha to AC, etc) without any down side.

Flame Cincture: Fire Resistance 10 + (5 * essentia invested). If the soulmeld is bound to your Waist Chakra, then after resisting damage with flame cincture, on your next turn you can release a blast that deals the same damage as a Swift Action ranged touch attack. Have an ally dump fireballs on you, or just buy an Explosive melee weapon (Comp Warrior, IIRC) which deals fire damage to everyone in a 5 ft radius on each hit.

[Nightraiderx]

I didn't know Therepuetic mantle worked on Fast Healing type spells,
Oh will that be useful for my epic level character that should bring up his fast healing to 15 (it was 6 before that point). As well as Spellward shirt stacking with the vest.