Shock Trooper Shock

[GhengisConrad]

ALRIGHT! OKAY! HERE WE GO!

I have discovered and learnt the value of shock trooper. It at once, destroys my notions of gaining damages, and gaining AC.

AC is meaningless in the face of a Shock Trooper user. He gains +a brazilian to his attack role. Whatever I can do to increase my AC... he can shock trooper it better.

Likewise, searching for ways to gain extra damage onto my attacks is meaningless.... it all pales in comparison to shock trooper's addition to damage. Whatever I am doing, I should really just be looking for a way to gain shock trooper.

Look at the link in my sig. Unless I have broken down and added shock trooper by the time you look at it... its s**t! What's the point?

Should I just ban shock trooper? Is that a thing? Do people do that? It seems to make so monochrome every other melee thing around it....

so much disappoint....

thoughts? comments? snide remarks?

all are welcome.

[eggynack]

Shock trooper doesn't really grant much of anything to hit, so as long as you maintain parity along that axis, you're free to increase damage in other ways. Shock trooper is one of the best melee options in the game, but other things are reasonably viable, depending on what you're looking for, and depending on your definition of viable. If the best option stopped people from taking lesser options, we'd all be druids (or other casters). Anyway, shock trooper really only grants high damage, and in a somewhat situational manner at that, so there's plenty of room for things besides damage (tripping, intimidation, etc.), and a bit less room for damage methods that rely on other circumstances (DFI, natural attacks, sneak attack, etc.). So, y'know, don't worry so much about it. It's not like shock trooper is that hard to incorporate into other builds, and even if you can't, other things exist.

Edit: Also, you probably shouldn't ban shock trooper. Being the best melee option makes something only the kazillionth best option overall.

[supervillan]

Shock Trooper is the key to any "ubercharger" build.

If you allow Shock Trooper, you allow uberchargers. If you allow uberchargers, then the possibility exists in your games for massive melee damage sufficient to obliterate almost any target vulnerable to melee damage. This leads to "rocket tag": win initiative, win it all.

BUT: that's still just melee damage. Some will argue that casters are still more dangerous due to battlefield control capability, and won't have difficulty shutting down uberchargers, and they'll have a point.

So, whether or not you allow ubercharger shock troopers is really a matter of what kind of game you want, and what kind of power level you want to be at. If you have PC shock troopers, you're probably also going to have NPCs with the same schtick.

What do you and your table prefer?

[Pluto!]

On one hand, in higher optimization environments, it's pretty important to include, just because it maintains a lot of classes' viability in the Haymaker/Immunity Roulette world of minmaxed D&D.

On the other, it's a bit like ToB in that it singehandly powers up a melee character to the extent that, in lower optimization environments, the whole tactical nature of the game has to shift to be more than trading attack rolls to whittle through monster HP - a shift toward the high op world that can potentially be overly lethal for a coherent campaign.

I don't like the kind of game Shock Trooper belongs in and encourages, but I don't dislike it enough to cut it from my games because as a DM, there are plenty of tactical and monster-building workarounds you can intersperse to keep it reasonable (multiple monsters, class levels, interesting terrain, magical enemies, flying monsters, mobile monsters, etc) and it's not powerful or slow enough to alter the game in the way as the items that I do consider to be unfair or unfun (eg. Power Link Quori Shards or Incantatrix w/r/t power, classes that continually rewrite spells or character abilities w/r/t game pace).

Plus, the non-Heedless Charge elements of the feat are cool enough that I'd feel bad cutting them.

[Twilightwyrm]

Shock Trooper, taken on its own, isn't actually that bad. It is limited by the Power Attack stipulation that you cannot sacrifice more than your BAB in an attack penalty, and applying this full penalty means that if whatever is attacked, or any of its friends, survived the charge, the Shock Trooper has likely tanked his AC so much that he is quite vulnerable to a full power attack full attack from whatever scary monster he just charged. Hell, on the charger build I have going, I don't even bother taking it, because I don't like the idea of suffering precisely this drawback (and I'm not super optimized for charging specifically anyways). The reason it gets so crazy on charger builds is that it is being combined with so many other damage multipliers that everything within the charger's reach can be reduced to smoldering rubble. Between Valorous Weapons, Leap Attack, possible Battle Jumping, possible Uncanny Blow, and others.

[OldTrees1]

AC is meaningless in the face of a Shock Trooper user. He gains +a brazilian to his attack role. Whatever I can do to increase my AC... he can shock trooper it better.


You misunderstand.
Power Attack normally penalizes your Attack
ShockTrooper reassigns the Power Attack penalty from Attack to AC.

ShockTrooper does not give +a brazilian Attack. Rather it is a limiter remover that allows your Power Attack feat to go from -1 Attack +1 damage to -20 AC + 20 damage.


Should it be banned?
I have never had a problem with it. However an Ubercharger would have too low an AC to survive in my campaigns. So I kinda have banned it by rendering it underpowered in my campaigns via encounter design.

[Piggy Knowles]

Chiming in with what several others have said. Shock Trooper isn't the problem. Damage multipliers are.

[herrhauptmann]

Shock trooper is good, and should be included if going for a 2 handed weapon.

But there's a number of ways around it. Nor is it all that you need.

Difficult terrain and other obstacles make it difficult (heh) to charge. Skill tricks help you get around those. As do certain items, feats, and spells.

Better reach helps too. But if you've somehow got 40feet of reach, and are less than 50 feet from your opponent, you can't charge. So while it's important to boost your reach, don't boost it too much.

On that note, AOOs are your enemy.

Your AC will be at rock bottom, but you haven't even gotten to hit anyone yet. If an opponent has better reach than you, he'll get an AOO when you provoke via movement.

If your opponent has reach equal or greater than yours, and the DM gave him a very cheap pair of boots to wear, he'll shut you down even harder by hitting for double damage.

Better yet, the hit from those boots doesn't count as an AOO. So if his reach is equal or greater to yours, he's going to hit you twice.

[GhengisConrad]

because I am ignorant, and bad at googling

http://www.google.com/search?safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&q=dnd+list+of+damage+multipliers&spell=1&sa=X&ei=gbbMUrLtDqbN2QXpmoDYAg&ved=0CCkQBSgA&biw=1351&bih=755

can you point me to a list of damage multipliers?

[OldTrees1]

Chiming in with what several others have said. Shock Trooper isn't the problem. Damage multipliers are.

Huh? Shock Trooper drastically buffs Power Attack. Much more than mere multipliers.

Power Attack without Shock Trooper but with x6 multipliers often deals optimal damage at minimal Power Attack usage.

Power Attack with Shock Trooper but without multipliers deals optimal damage at full Power Attack usage.

Math: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12229.0

[Karnith]

I don't know if there's a real list somewhere (EDIT: oops, here you go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087)), but some assorted damage multipliers useful with charging/Shock Trooper:
Leap Attack (feat, Complete Adventurer; increases Power Attack returns by some amount)
Improved Power Attack, Supreme Power Attack (class features of Frenzied Berserker; increases Power Attack Returns by 50%, then 100%)
Headlong Rush (feat, Races of Faerun; doubles damage on a charge)
Valorous (weapon property, Unapproachable East; doubles weapon damage on a charge)
Rhino's Rush (spell, Spell Compendium; doubles damage on the first charge attack you make before the end of the round)
Dive attacks (racial ability of Raptorans and Dragonborn; deal double damage with piercing weapons as part of diving charges)
Lances (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#lance) (for mounted charging)
Spirited Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spiritedCharge) (for mounted charging)

[GhengisConrad]

Huh? Shock Trooper drastically buffs Power Attack. Much more than mere multipliers.

Power Attack without Shock Trooper but with x6 multipliers often deals optimal damage at minimal Power Attack usage.

Power Attack with Shock Trooper but without multipliers deals optimal damage at full Power Attack usage.

Math: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12229.0

I LIKE MATH, when I understand it...

what's he saying? Use it, or dont?

[Eldariel]

Should it be banned?
I have never had a problem with it. However an Ubercharger would have too low an AC to survive in my campaigns. So I kinda have banned it by rendering it underpowered in my campaigns via encounter design.

Huh. How do you make AC stay relevant in your campaigns? Do you just ban all damage immunity setups and Starmantle Cloak & al.?

[OldTrees1]

I LIKE MATH, when I understand it...

what's he saying? Use it, or dont?


He has a chart in the middle of the pdf that summarizes power attack's utility under various circumstances assuming a 2handed weapon with a 20/x2 critical without power attack multipliers.

The summary of that chart is:
At Mb + d*  38 damage, your hit chance has to be off the RNG before Power Attack adds any damage.

The line above which Power Attack adds more damage than Weapon Specialization starts at 70% hit chance and 10 damage and ends at 95% hit chance and 20 damage

*Mb + d = average damage on a hit with no power attack and including criticals (M=1+crit multiplier x crit range/20) and extra damage

He is saying that power attack becomes really weak unless combined with Shock Trooper or several multipliers.


Huh. How do you make AC stay relevant in your campaigns? Do you just ban all damage immunity setups and Starmantle Cloak & al.?
Two separate questions.
Hp is still relevant since my players do not attempt damage immunity.
AC is still relevant since my players often face enough enemies that the enemies get a turn.

[Eldariel]

He has a chart in the middle of the pdf that summarizes power attack's utility under various circumstances assuming a 2handed weapon with a 20/x2 critical without power attack multipliers.

The summary of that chart is:
At Mb + d*  38 damage, your hit chance has to be off the RNG before Power Attack adds any damage.

The line above which Power Attack adds more damage than Weapon Specialization starts at 70% hit chance and 10 damage and ends at 95% hit chance and 20 damage

*Mb + d = average damage on a hit with no power attack and including criticals (M=1+crit multiplier x crit range/20) and extra damage

There's also this site (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/), which does the math for you for any given To Hit up to +60, and AC values on either single attack, full attack or full attack with extra attacks at highest BAB.

It's interesting to run numbers through it, but yeah, while Shock Trooper is a massive PA booster, default PA is already very good in builds incorporating Charging (+2), flight (+1), tripping (+4) and similar attack buffs.

[Renegade Paladin]

How to deal with ubercharges: Carry a guisarme, use your AoO to trip. Suddenly, he's flat on his face having not hit you. Whale on him at will.

[OldTrees1]

There's also this site (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/), which does the math for you for any given To Hit up to +60, and AC values on either single attack, full attack or full attack with extra attacks at highest BAB.

It's interesting to run numbers through it, but yeah, while Shock Trooper is a massive PA booster, default PA is already very good in builds incorporating Charging (+2), flight (+1), tripping (+4) and similar attack buffs.

An example I tried:
Dragonborn Half Minotaur WaterOrc Barbarian(Spirit Lion, Whirling Frenzy)1/Fighter1/Warblade4
BAB: +6
STR: 34
+1 Greatsword
Charging and Flight but no trip assumed (Why would a new foe be prone?)

At 26 or higher AC, normal power attack is suboptimal in this example
At 21 or higher AC, normal power attack is weaker than weapon specialization
By reducing my weapon damage to 2/3rds the calculator simulates Leap Attack
At 30 or higher AC, Leap Attack power attack is suboptimal in this example
At 24 or higher AC, Leap Attack power attack is weaker than weapon specialization

[Piggy Knowles]

Huh? Shock Trooper drastically buffs Power Attack. Much more than mere multipliers.

Power Attack without Shock Trooper but with x6 multipliers often deals optimal damage at minimal Power Attack usage.

Power Attack with Shock Trooper but without multipliers deals optimal damage at full Power Attack usage.

Math: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12229.0

Maybe I wasn't entirely clear. Sorry, I was on my phone earlier.

Shock Trooper drastically buffs Power Attack, primarily by taking the guesswork out of finding the optimal figure, but Shock Trooper on its own without damage multipliers is at most adding BAB*2 damage to your attacks, which is nice but not crazy.

Damage multipliers provide insane damage boosts even without Power Attack, and they make the ability to sink in an extra 40 points (or as much as 80 alongside Leap Attack) of flat damage at negligible cost incredibly deadly.

In other words... Shock Trooper in a game without multipliers is a nice buff but mostly just makes sure you're dealing level-appropriate damage. Multipliers without Shock Trooper are still doing thoroughly ridiculous damage. Multipliers AND Shock Trooper easily bring you to quadruple digit figures and beyond. To me, that tells me the problem is with the damage multipliers, not with Shock Trooper.

[Eldariel]

An example I tried:
Dragonborn Half Minotaur WaterOrc Barbarian(Spirit Lion, Whirling Frenzy)1/Fighter1/Warblade4
BAB: +6
STR: 34
+1 Greatsword
Charging and Flight but no trip assumed (Why would a new foe be prone?)

At 26 or higher AC, normal power attack is suboptimal in this example
At 21 or higher AC, normal power attack is weaker than weapon specialization
By reducing my weapon damage to 2/3rds the calculator simulates Leap Attack
At 30 or higher AC, Leap Attack power attack is suboptimal in this example
At 24 or higher AC, Leap Attack power attack is weaker than weapon specialization

Ah, well, they're of course prone 'cause you trip them. Chargers make great use of Guisarme/Spiked Chain and Improved Trip; indeed, you'll probably have leftover feats thanks to the lack of costs associated with a Fighter-dip anyways so might as well provided you can swing the prerequisites (or just take Wolf Totem Barbarian). Indeed, those almost always outperform anything but critfishers (and even that takes Kaorti Resin to outperform Charger).


Take a level 6 Barbarian/Fighter with Improved Trip, Power Attack and irrelevant feats. Make him an Orc for good measure, and make him Rage (Extra Rage is an affordable feat so it's doable). 17-18 Str on PB and +4 race, +4 Rage, +1 Level. You get 6 BAB, +8 Strength (or +9 if he's invested 4k in the Strength item, which he can afford on this level so he probably has), Mw. or +1 weapon, +2 Charge, +4 after a successful trip (+13 without Enlarge Person from Potion or whatever is fairly respectable on these levels).

Totals out at 6+9+1+2+4 = +22/+17 at 2d4+13+1 = 2d4+14 (20/x2). SRD average AC for CR 6 is 18.88. Level + 13 is 19. Highest AC on the level is 28. vs. AC 19 he can PA for -6 netting a total of 50.45-37.90 = 12.55 extra damage on the full attack. Vs. AC 23 he's still getting more than Weapon Spec per hit (38.27-33.91 = 4.36), which would also be his gains vs. AC 19 without a successful Trip.


Of course, the biggest benefactors from Power Attack without Shock Trooper are Gishes, who can use stuff like Wraithstrike, Knowledge Devotion, Quickened True Strike, Divine Favor, etc. to pump their To Hit skyhigh/negate enemy armor and Power Attack with impunity.

Generally, the rule is that if your main attacks are at a higher bonus than enemy AC, you're free to Power Attack and if you go by the book monsters and an offensively built warrior, that should be the case pretty much always.


Maybe I wasn't entirely clear. Sorry, I was on my phone earlier.

Shock Trooper drastically buffs Power Attack, primarily by taking the guesswork out of finding the optimal figure, but Shock Trooper on its own without damage multipliers is at most adding BAB*2 damage to your attacks, which is nice but not crazy.

Damage multipliers provide insane damage boosts even without Power Attack, and they make the ability to sink in an extra 40-80 points of flat damage at negligible cost incredibly deadly.

In other words... Shock Trooper in a game without multipliers is a nice buff but mostly just makes sure you're dealing level-appropriate damage. Multipliers without Shock Trooper are still doing thoroughly ridiculous damage. Multipliers AND Shock Trooper easily bring you to quadruple digit figures and beyond. To me, that tells me the problem is with the damage multipliers, not with Shock Trooper.

Yeah, multipliers are conceptually broken. It's funny that they moved Backstab away from multiplication (into the conceptually terrible system that is Sneak Attack - only in D&D are the guys hitting enemy's weak points disincentivized from getting critical hits) only to add it to various things around Charge. Of course, since so many of them key off Charges and there are ways to make Charges at basically any position, this just leads to Charging being ridiculously effective.

[Nettlekid]

Look at the link in my sig. Unless I have broken down and added shock trooper by the time you look at it... its s**t! What's the point?


...........So yeah, what I was saying in that other thread was...........

Anyway, Shock Trooper is really powerful, but it epitomizes glass cannon. Because they take the to-hit penalty to AC instead, if whatever they're fighting survives (or there's more than one thing) all that thing's attacks will pummel the Shock Trooper.

Shock Trooper is also only useful on charging builds, which many but not all martial builds are. Because it requires charging, as many people have said there is plenty which works against it.

But honestly, it's just melee damage. There are save-or-die spells, and no-save-or-die spells. It's a thing you can put on melee builds to make them stronger, but they're still just melee. Not worth banning any more than TWF for giving SO MANY ATTACKS.

[Gwendol]

Steadfast boots: kills shock trooper.

[Person_Man]

My 2cp:

1) There are many many ways to get lots and lots of damage. Optimizing Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087) (which generally includes taking Shock Trooper at level 6 or 9) is probably the most popular. But you can also increase your effective size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777), add extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595), add a combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) which denies your enemy their normal actions (thus giving you and your team more opportunities to hit them), or use a class that fully progresses any of the major subsytems (magic, psionics, vestiges, maneuvers, or incarnum).

2) If you DM a game with a player who deals lots of damage, and it seems like that player is stealing the spotlight in combat and/or making encounters "too easy" for the party, it's not that big of a deal. Add more enemies. Give enemies templates. Give enemies higher then normal Constitution bonuses. Make the player who deals massive damage famous for their prowess in combat, so that other famous warriors/monsters/bounty hunters/etc specifically seek them out in combat. Add more encounters per game day. Add more traps (both in and out of combat), puzzles, riddles, roleplaying, and exploration to the game. Add quests that require that the PCs not be noticed or caught or kill anyone (theft, hostage recovery, spying, BBEG is a demigod who shouldn't be angered, etc). It's probably one of the most common and easily resolved issues in the game. The purpose of the game is to have fun. If players have fun dealing massive damage, let them.