Mass Death Ward special utility

[ReaderAt2046]

We already know that Durkon researched the Mass Death Ward spell to protect from Xykon's Energy Drains. However, it also has a secondary utility: Casting it on Xykon will cut the lich off from healing, which could easily make the difference between victory and defeat. Do you think anyone on the Stick team has worked this out?

[TRH]

I suppose, but it's also one Superb Dispelling away from getting removed, so that alone won't save them. Beating Xykon in a direct fight still seems quite unlikely.

[Fishies]

@OP: The regular version of Death Ward only affects living creatures and can be negated with a Will save.


I suppose, but it's also one Superb Dispelling away from getting removed, so that alone won't save them. Beating Xykon in a direct fight still seems quite unlikely.

Sure, but Superb Dispelling still costs an epic spell slot. So if the Mass Death Ward works and Xykon uses Superb Dispelling, the Order would probably come out ahead on that exchange.

[Kish]

Death Ward is a Will negates (harmless) spell.

It's not harmless to Xykon, and I think it would be a big mistake for Durkon to bet on him blowing his Will save, though there's no reason not to include Xykon in the casting area as long as it doesn't mean anyone in the Order doesn't get affected.

[Amphiox]

Hm. An interesting thing to consider here is that Mass Death Ward isn't a regular spell, but something Durkon and Malack uniquely cooked up.

This raises the possibility that Xykon might not recognize the problem it could pose to him, and therefore might let it hit him (ie fail his will save), because he doesn't think it is a power that has any relevance to him (and power is power), and because Xykon can sometimes be dumb that way....

[factotum]

Xykon is not dumb. He's certainly not dumb enough to let an unidentified enemy spell hit him. Of course, the verbal component of spells in OotS is the name of the spell anyway, so it would be pretty unlikely he wouldn't realise what was being cast!

[Trillium]

Hm, I wonder. Death Ward spell prevents negative energy from affecting the target.

What if one cast Mass Death Ward on to Xykon himself, but rather on his bones. It would most likely count as "item in possession" and get a save, bla-bla-bla, but should the save fail - one casting could disintegrate Xykon, no?

[SaintRidley]

Hm, I wonder. Death Ward spell prevents negative energy from affecting the target.

What if one cast Mass Death Ward on to Xykon himself, but rather on his bones. It would most likely count as "item in possession" and get a save, bla-bla-bla, but should the save fail - one casting could disintegrate Xykon, no?

Even if you tried targeting his bones, it wouldn't work, since they are not any manner of creature.

[Trillium]

Even if you tried targeting his bones, it wouldn't work, since they are not any manner of creature.

One could argue, that lich's bones are a mindless skeleton (creature), which acts as a vessel for lich's soul.

[Ridureyu]

And don't forget boneless liches!

Oh, Slugfire the Soulslimer, what a terrible fiend you were.

[WindStruck]

One could argue, that lich's bones are a mindless skeleton (creature), which acts as a vessel for lich's soul.

One could also argue that using Prestidigitation a certain way could grant lava immunity but I don't think that would fly either. Hitting Xykon with mass death ward DOES seem like a valid strategy though... consider this:

First you buff up your party with MDW. They start fighting Xykon. After Xykon realizes they are protected from negative energy, he dispels it. At that moment Durkon could do it again and not only rebuff his party but also potentially affect Xykon with it... to be fair, he'd get a save, but still. :smallsmile:

[Saambell]

Mass Death Ward is also a "Buff" spell, so Xykon could say "hey, its a buff, can never have too many of those."
At the same time, with a Superb Dispelling, it would also cancel his Overland Flight plus any and all other magic he had cast on himself pre-battle or during.
So if they do manage to get MDW on Xykon, it would not only mean no healing for a bit, but also that if he wants to heal he needs to use a Epic Spell Slot (as mentioned above) AND lose any enhancements that he had cast on himself, further resources lost.
So if they do manage to land MDW on Xykon it would be very useful overall.

[Keltest]

Mass Death Ward is also a "Buff" spell, so Xykon could say "hey, its a buff, can never have too many of those."
At the same time, with a Superb Dispelling, it would also cancel his Overland Flight plus any and all other magic he had cast on himself pre-battle or during.
So if they do manage to get MDW on Xykon, it would not only mean no healing for a bit, but also that if he wants to heal he needs to use a Epic Spell Slot (as mentioned above) AND lose any enhancements that he had cast on himself, further resources lost.
So if they do manage to land MDW on Xykon it would be very useful overall.

Somehow I doubt Xykon will dismiss it as "another buff, cool". And I would not be entirely surprised if something weird happened, especially with Durkon being a Vampire now.

[chronoreverse]

So if they do manage to get MDW on Xykon, it would not only mean no healing for a bit, but also that if he wants to heal he needs to use a Epic Spell Slot (as mentioned above) AND lose any enhancements that he had cast on himself, further resources lost.
So if they do manage to land MDW on Xykon it would be very useful overall.

He also takes 10d6 backlash damage. Epic spells are serious business.

[Zancloufer]

Why does Xykon even to use an epic spell slot to Dispel Durkon's buff? It's only a 25-26 caster check to counter Durkon, and there's nothing saying that he doesn't have (Greater) Dispel magic.

There's also a decent chance that Xykon has Empower Spell. Empowered (Greater) Dispel magic had a very high chance of nuking any buff the OoTS can cast (Looking at 16-45 as the range on Dispel Magic alone), and he CAN cancel just ONE buff in an AoE is he chooses. He doesn't need to counter all the spells cast on him, he can target all the Mass Death Ward's within a 20ft burst for example.

As an actual tactic though, there's nothing saying you CAN'T cast it on hostile creatures, and if Xykon's within buff range at the time there's now downside to trying to hit him with it.

[Amphiox]

Xykon is not dumb. He's certainly not dumb enough to let an unidentified enemy spell hit him. Of course, the verbal component of spells in OotS is the name of the spell anyway, so it would be pretty unlikely he wouldn't realise what was being cast!

Oh yes he most certainly is, as has been vividly demonstrated in his characterization throughout the strip. Or, more precisely, he is clever, but also lazy, and will sometimes act dumb because he doesn't care to apply his intelligence, and will happily ignore things that he thinks are beneath his notice and won't affect him either way. And sometimes he is wrong and it bites him in the coccyx.

If he thinks the spell is not powerful enough to affect him, it is well within his character to let it hit him. He might easily think that Mass Death Ward is a defensive spell the good guys are casting to protect themselves, and not realize that its effect on him would be to prevent him from being healed, and let it go. Redcloak would probably notice and perhaps try to warn him, but he might not listen to Redcloak. Or Redcloak might notice and advise him to dispel it after it hits, resulting in TE losing one round of action.

[orrion]

Hm. An interesting thing to consider here is that Mass Death Ward isn't a regular spell, but something Durkon and Malack uniquely cooked up.

This raises the possibility that Xykon might not recognize the problem it could pose to him, and therefore might let it hit him (ie fail his will save), because he doesn't think it is a power that has any relevance to him (and power is power), and because Xykon can sometimes be dumb that way....

Mas Death Ward isn't a regular spell, but Death Ward certainly is.

[Kish]

I do not think it would be a tactically sound decision for anyone in the Order to count on Xykon fighting stupidly.

[Fish]

There is one thing being overlooked. Well, two.

If it shields Xykon from "healing" spells, it also shields Durkon.

It has a back door and Durkon knows what it is.

[WindStruck]

I do not think it would be a tactically sound decision for anyone in the Order to count on Xykon fighting stupidly.
That is true. Many a leader have met their demise from arrogantly underestimating their enemy. But I don't think anyone's saying the Order will think that. It's just our opinions as readers. I mean, for all the other times Xykon has been portrayed, it's kind of like a Chekov's Gun.

[Amphiox]

I do not think it would be a tactically sound decision for anyone in the Order to count on Xykon fighting stupidly.

It is tactically sound to plan your tactics in such a way as to give your enemy as many chances as possible to be stupid and screw up (ie try to avoid railroading him into situations where the optimum action is obvious)

So include Xykon in the area of effect when casting it on yourself. If he screws up, bonus! If he doesn't, you've lost nothing and still gain the primary benefit of the spell for your own party.

This is particularly true for the Order, for they have no chance in the fight at all unless Xykon does something stupid, thanks to the immense power gap. Their strategy needs to be one that provokes as many opportunities for Xykon to be stupid as possible.

[Amphiox]

Mas Death Ward isn't a regular spell, but Death Ward certainly is.

They can try to cast it just out of earshot enough for a chance for the Lich to mishear it as Mass Death Wargs or something, like Thor did.

[Keltest]

They can try to cast it just out of earshot enough for a chance for the Lich to mishear it as Mass Death Wargs or something, like Thor did.

Doesn't Xykon have a +5 racial bonus to listen checks though?

[orrion]

There is one thing being overlooked. Well, two.

If it shields Xykon from "healing" spells, it also shields Durkon.

It has a back door and Durkon knows what it is.

It shields Durkon if he targets himself with it, yes. He can choose not to do so. My understanding is that Mass effects aren't a radius spell. The caster gets to choose targets.

[Amphiox]

Doesn't Xykon have a +5 racial bonus to listen checks though?

I guess they'll just have to stand the equivalent of a +6 bonus further away...

[Keltest]

I guess they'll just have to stand the equivalent of a +6 bonus further away...

Im reasonably certain that to get out of audibility range would get out of the range of the spell.

If he really wanted to, he could probably whisper it though.

[orrion]

They can try to cast it just out of earshot enough for a chance for the Lich to mishear it as Mass Death Wargs or something, like Thor did.

Uh. That would be even less of a reason for Xykon to allow it to affect him.

[Trillium]

:durkon: *whispers just loud enough for Xykon to hear, but as if to hide the info from Xykon* "Guys, I gonna cast Mass Death Ward, which is a protection spell for undead - me, and my summoned minions. Mass Death Ward. Whoops, I accidentally targeted Xykon too!"
:xykon: "Muhahah, thanks for buff, dummy!"
:durkon: :amused:

I doubt Xykon knows much about cleric spells. It's not as if they are real magic anyway.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Sure, but Superb Dispelling still costs an epic spell slot.
Which Xykon's already spent - he used Superb Dispelling in the fight against Darth V to remove all of V's defences, right before he smashed V over the head with about a quarter-ton of wall.

And Redcloak threw a Greater Dispel about five panels before that.

[orrion]

:durkon: *whispers just loud enough for Xykon to hear, but as if to hide the info from Xykon* "Guys, I gonna cast Mass Death Ward, which is a protection spell for undead - me, and my summoned minions. Mass Death Ward. Whoops, I accidentally targeted Xykon too!"
:xykon: "Muhahah, thanks for buff, dummy!"
:durkon: :amused:

I doubt Xykon knows much about cleric spells. It's not as if they are real magic anyway.

I'd hazard a guess that Xykon knows about a spell that counters one of his own favorite spells.


Which Xykon's already spent - he used Superb Dispelling in the fight against Darth V to remove all of V's defences, right before he smashed V over the head with about a quarter-ton of wall.

And Redcloak threw a Greater Dispel about five panels before that.

Wait, why are you under the impression that Xykon could only cast Superb Dispelling once, and what does Redcloak using GDM have to do with anything?

Also, why is everyone saying Xykon would need to use Superb Dispelling to get rid of Mass Death Ward anyway? Greater Dispel Magic would probably work just fine.

[Kish]

:durkon: *whispers just loud enough for Xykon to hear, but as if to hide the info from Xykon* "Guys, I gonna cast Mass Death Ward, which is a protection spell for undead - me, and my summoned minions. Mass Death Ward. Whoops, I accidentally targeted Xykon too!"
:xykon: "Muhahah, thanks for buff, dummy!"
:durkon: :amused:

I doubt Xykon knows much about cleric spells. It's not as if they are real magic anyway.
Because Xykon shares all of Vaarsuvius' prejudices rather than having explicitly said that everything is oddly balanced, and because Durkon's Bluff roll is something other than catastrophic?

(Okay, if Durkon's still a vampire when he sees Xykon again, his vampire Charisma bonus might take his Bluff roll from catastrophic to merely awful.)

[Kalmegil]

Is it typical for a Mass version of a spell to change they type (as opposed to number) of targets for a base spell?

Because Death Ward simply cannot land on Xykon; as someone pointed out above, it affects only living creatures. SR, saving throws, and dispels are all irrelevant here. Neither Durkon or Xykon can be affected by Mas Death Ward, unless it somehow changes the target type of the base spell.

[Keltest]

Is it typical for a Mass version of a spell to change they type (as opposed to number) of targets for a base spell?

Because Death Ward simply cannot land on Xykon; as someone pointed out above, it affects only living creatures. SR, saving throws, and dispels are all irrelevant here. Neither Durkon or Xykon can be affected by Mas Death Ward, unless it somehow changes the target type of the base spell.

As it is Durkon's (or the Giant's) spell, it could conceivably be made to do whatever he wanted it to do. The fact that he called it "Mass Death Ward" does not necessarily mean it is simply and literally a party version of the death ward spell, with all restrictions and requirements being otherwise equal.

[orrion]

As it is Durkon's (or the Giant's) spell, it could conceivably be made to do whatever he wanted it to do. The fact that he called it "Mass Death Ward" does not necessarily mean it is simply and literally a party version of the death ward spell, with all restrictions and requirements being otherwise equal.

It kind of is exactly that until there's evidence that it isn't.

[Keltest]

It kind of is exactly that until there's evidence that it isn't.

I think you missed the point. Its not stated anywhere that that's explicitly how it functions, therefore we cannot eliminate it being able to affect undead as a possibility.

and weve already seen it have one non-standard feature: a back door.

[sengmeng]

I think you missed the point. Its not stated anywhere that that's explicitly how it functions, therefore we cannot eliminate it being able to affect undead as a possibility.

and weve already seen it have one non-standard feature: a back door.

Hmm, that's true. But, although the rules for spell research are pretty vague, I'd assume that making a mass version of an existing spell would be easier than an entirely new spell, and changing the target type would make it more complicated. Why would Durkon make the research more difficult unless he had the same tactical insight the original poster did?

[Keltest]

Hmm, that's true. But, although the rules for spell research are pretty vague, I'd assume that making a mass version of an existing spell would be easier than an entirely new spell, and changing the target type would make it more complicated. Why would Durkon make the research more difficult unless he had the same tactical insight the original poster did?

Remember though, Durkon was not the only one to work on the spell. And Malack was a vampire.

[Qwertystop]

Remember though, Durkon was not the only one to work on the spell. And Malack was a vampire.

But Malack wouldn't want the spell to be able to work on him.

Or would avoiding the unlikely situation of "why isn't it working on you when I test it" outweigh being cut off from healing unless he can say the codeword without being heard?

[Kalmegil]

As it is Durkon's (or the Giant's) spell, it could conceivably be made to do whatever he wanted it to do. The fact that he called it "Mass Death Ward" does not necessarily mean it is simply and literally a party version of the death ward spell, with all restrictions and requirements being otherwise equal.

It could conceivable let the recipient fly, too. We have seen nothing to indicate that this is anything except the mass version of the single-target spell Durkon already had to protect against negative energy attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html). With the exception of Malack's safe-word addition, which brings us to...


Remember though, Durkon was not the only one to work on the spell. And Malack was a vampire.

Yes, Malack was a vampire, a being that already has the benefits this spell supplies (immunity to harm by negative energy) and could potentially be harmed by it, such that he would NEVER want this spell cast on him.

So why should we think Malack, who already interfered with the spell once to make sure it couldn't be used defensively against him, would further interfere with it so that it could be used offensively against him?

[sengmeng]

Remember though, Durkon was not the only one to work on the spell. And Malack was a vampire.

Yes. That's why he put in be backdoor. He changed it in a way that benefitted him. Why would he change it into a potent weapon against undead? Although, it could have been dismissed by him at any time. I don't think the spell does anything that neither Malack or Durkon intended, for reasons I already stated. I'll concede that it could, but not for any reason that makes sense to me.

Edit:
...avoiding the unlikely situation of "why isn't it working on you when I test it"

Except that.

[Keltest]

It could conceivable let the recipient fly, too. We have seen nothing to indicate that this is anything except the mass version of the single-target spell Durkon already had to protect against negative energy attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html). With the exception of Malack's safe-word addition, which brings us to...



Yes, Malack was a vampire, a being that already has the benefits this spell supplies (immunity to harm by negative energy) and could potentially be harmed by it, such that he would NEVER want this spell cast on him.

So why should we think Malack, who already interfered with the spell once to make sure it couldn't be used defensively against him, would further interfere with it so that it could be used offensively against him?

It doesn't really matter. Maybe he was a thrill addict. Maybe he wanted to be able to cast it himself, but a restriction on undead would prevent it from happening. Combined with the backdoor, he could immediately dispel it on himself since talking is a free action.

Heck, maybe Durkon deliberately did that specifically for the purpose of casting it on undead foes to cut off their healing as well.

The point is not that we construct a specific scenario where it can affect undead, simply establish that, however unlikely, such a scenario could happen.

[orrion]

It doesn't really matter. Maybe he was a thrill addict. Maybe he wanted to be able to cast it himself, but a restriction on undead would prevent it from happening. Combined with the backdoor, he could immediately dispel it on himself since talking is a free action.

Except that, again, Mass spells work by allowing the caster to choose targets. So being unable to cast it on himself due to some restriction wouldn't be a problem. It wouldn't cancel the spell out or something. Besides, he'd never want to target himself with it anyway.

Also, if Malack wanted to cast it himself he'd have to research his own spell. I don't think he could just copy Durkon's researched spell. He was helping, not doing the research himself.

As for dispelling himself, from what we've seen the backdoor isn't targeted. So when he dispelled himself he'd be dispelling everyone he just cast it on. Kind of pointless.



Heck, maybe Durkon deliberately did that specifically for the purpose of casting it on undead foes to cut off their healing as well.

He was researching that spell specifically at Roy's behest to battle Xykon, and would know that a) they get a save against having the spell cast on them, and b) they could just dispel it. a) is especially important as an Epic lich sorcerer many levels higher is very likely to make that save and negate that aspect anyway. There's no point to it.

Tactically, the spell would be of best use cast BEFORE they ever see Xykon. That would probably cause him to waste/cast multiple spells. If he saw it cast, then he'd just other spells and/or dispel them first.



The point is not that we construct a specific scenario where it can affect undead, simply establish that, however unlikely, such a scenario could happen.

Right. The spell no doubt has a side effect of casting Continual Flame 500 feet to the north of the caster. Nobody can prove it doesn't, so it's obviously a possibility.

[Keltest]

Except that, again, Mass spells work by allowing the caster to choose targets. So being unable to cast it on himself due to some restriction wouldn't be a problem. It wouldn't cancel the spell out or something. Besides, he'd never want to target himself with it anyway.

Also, if Malack wanted to cast it himself he'd have to research his own spell. I don't think he could just copy Durkon's researched spell. He was helping, not doing the research himself.

As for dispelling himself, from what we've seen the backdoor isn't targeted. So when he dispelled himself he'd be dispelling everyone he just cast it on. Kind of pointless.



He was researching that spell specifically at Roy's behest to battle Xykon, and would know that a) they get a save against having the spell cast on them, and b) they could just dispel it. a) is especially important as an Epic lich sorcerer many levels higher is very likely to make that save and negate that aspect anyway. There's no point to it.

Tactically, the spell would be of best use cast BEFORE they ever see Xykon. That would probably cause him to waste/cast multiple spells. If he saw it cast, then he'd just other spells and/or dispel them first.



Right. The spell no doubt has a side effect of casting Continual Flame 500 feet to the north of the caster. Nobody can prove it doesn't, so it's obviously a possibility.

Fine, ill admit Malack including it is unlikely. That still doesn't eliminate the possibility of Durkon adding it in. Casting it before they engage Xykon would be fine and dandy, but that doesn't mean they'll get a chance to prepare. Hes not sitting there waiting for them anymore, and he doesn't care if theyre alive. And even if he did, its quite possible he will want/need to re-cast it.

As for your strawman, a continual flame 500 feet to the north has no purpose in being included in the spell intentionally. it COULD be added in as a side effect if the giant chose to for whatever reason, so yes. actually it does remain a possibility, if not a probability.

The thread was created for discussing the merits of including Xykon in the spell as well, not whether or it could be done. If Durkon chose to he could have included undead as a potential target and never announced it. Whether or not he did is up to Rich. It doesn't matter though, because he COULD have. Arguing "normal death ward doesn't work that way" is pointless because Rich could easily write it into the story that Durkon's spell DOES work that way if he wants it to.

[orrion]

The thread was created for discussing the merits of including Xykon in the spell as well, not whether or it could be done. If Durkon chose to he could have included undead as a potential target and never announced it. Whether or not he did is up to Rich. It doesn't matter though, because he COULD have. Arguing "normal death ward doesn't work that way" is pointless because Rich could easily write it into the story that Durkon's spell DOES work that way if he wants it to.

Ok, so you brought up Malack for what reason? 'Cause Malack has nothing to do with the merits of Durkon deciding whether or not to include Xykon in the spell.

Including Xykon is a bad idea. He'd most likely make the save and he'd certainly be able to dispel it one way or another.

We're guessing based on the rules. Could that be wrong? Sure, but it's not pointless because the rules exist until shown that they don't. That's the implicit assumption agreed upon before these things even start. If you don't agree with that implicit assumption, fine, but then it's kind of useless for you to post in any topic like this because your post is always going to be the exact same thing. "Rich could make it work that way if he wanted to!" True, but useless and already understood.

I'd also say Durkon wouldn't have even thought about it because he was researching the spell with the intent to protect himself and his party from death effects and not to create a way to render Xykon immune to healing.

[sengmeng]

Well, if you're thinking about things The Giant might do, I'd have to point you i the direction of "things that are narratively satisfying and sufficiently plausible and/or explained." So, I'd say that he likelihood of it happening is small, because it would probably only happen if Rich reads this thread and likes the idea. Maybe Durkon will say to Roy "Malack was able to be targeted by the spell when we were researching it, so he must have expanded the things it could target. If we cast it on Xykon and our team, he couldn't be healed."

And Roy would say "I wouldn't rely on him blowing that saving throw, but it certainly won't hurt us if he does."

[MartianInvader]

Oh yes he most certainly is, as has been vividly demonstrated in his characterization throughout the strip. Or, more precisely, he is clever, but also lazy, and will sometimes act dumb because he doesn't care to apply his intelligence, and will happily ignore things that he thinks are beneath his notice and won't affect him either way. And sometimes he is wrong and it bites him in the coccyx.
Xykon has the classic low-intelligence, high-wisdom personality. As opposed to say, V, who has high intelligence and low wisdom.

So, unlikely:

:xykon: "Hm, based on the black flash and the energy dispersion pattern characteristic of the negative material plane, this spell is likely some sort of negative-energy-disruption spell, and I should resist."

Likely:

:xykon: "You're an experienced adventurer and you just 'accidentally' included me in an area spell you cast? Yeah right, nice try there Machiavelli." (makes save).

[Keltest]

Ok, so you brought up Malack for what reason? 'Cause Malack has nothing to do with the merits of Durkon deciding whether or not to include Xykon in the spell.

Including Xykon is a bad idea. He'd most likely make the save and he'd certainly be able to dispel it one way or another.

We're guessing based on the rules. Could that be wrong? Sure, but it's not pointless because the rules exist until shown that they don't. That's the implicit assumption agreed upon before these things even start. If you don't agree with that implicit assumption, fine, but then it's kind of useless for you to post in any topic like this because your post is always going to be the exact same thing. "Rich could make it work that way if he wanted to!" True, but useless and already understood.

I'd also say Durkon wouldn't have even thought about it because he was researching the spell with the intent to protect himself and his party from death effects and not to create a way to render Xykon immune to healing.

I brought up Malack because I was not thinking that through to its logical conclusion. As for Xykon, why would you NOT want to include him? So what if he makes the save? so what if he dispels it? worst case scenario, the rest of the party is protected like normal and the fight goes on. If it sticks, he has to spend a round dispelling it, or worse fight with it on him, and the party is STILL protected.

And for your "arguing based on the rules" bit, no you aren't. You are making several assumptions based on the name of a spell which may or may not actually perfectly correspond with its single-target inspiration. the whole point is WE DONT KNOW. we have never been shown a specific spell description, we don't even know what level a spell it is. It doesn't matter if its based on a preexisting spell, because Durkon could have changed it if he wanted to. Saying that he couldn't do this because of suchandsuch, especially when there is no evidence that is true, is arguing for the sake of arguing and contributes nothing to the discussion.

[Ghost Nappa]

So, I'd say that he likelihood of it happening is small, because it would probably only happen if Rich reads this thread and likes the idea.

The Giant has had Durkon's Vampirization and the complications and planning to get there of started from day 1. I think if we do see this strategy used, it won't be because we just thought of it.

Also, would you say that the chance of it happening is, like, 1-in-a-million (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)?

[Keltest]

The Giant has had Durkon's Vampirization and the complications and planning to get there of started from day 1. I think if we do see this strategy used, it won't be because we just thought of it.

Also, would you say that the chance of it happening is, like, 1-in-a-million (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)?

I don't think the giant had anything planned from day 1. I do agree it was a fairly long term idea, but not THAT long term.

[sengmeng]

The Giant has had Durkon's Vampirization and the complications and planning to get there of started from day 1. I think if we do see this strategy used, it won't be because we just thought of it.

Also, would you say that the chance of it happening is, like, 1-in-a-million (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)?

Not really. Mostly because it wouldn't have the narrative heft that a real "1-in-a-million" chance does when it is fulfilled.

[Ghost Nappa]

I don't think the giant had anything planned from day 1. I do agree it was a fairly long term idea, but not THAT long term.

I am not saying that the Giant has planned a particularly sneaky usage of a custom spell to take down the bad guy from day one.

I AM saying that if the Giant was going to have the characters use this strategy, I find it unlikely that it's because "The fans came up with something better than I was planning." It'll be because that was the plan all along.

And having planned things from day one was hyperbole, but not by much. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15709954&postcount=251)

For lack of a better color, Keltest:
Me thinks you should take my words a tad less literally. There often seems to be a significant distinction between what I intend to say and what you think I mean. Whether or not that is me failing to communicate, you failing to read properly, or a combination of both is beyond my knowledge, but this is not the first occasion. I find it frustrating.

[orrion]

I brought up Malack because I was not thinking that through to its logical conclusion. As for Xykon, why would you NOT want to include him? So what if he makes the save? so what if he dispels it? worst case scenario, the rest of the party is protected like normal and the fight goes on. If it sticks, he has to spend a round dispelling it, or worse fight with it on him, and the party is STILL protected.

And for your "arguing based on the rules" bit, no you aren't. You are making several assumptions based on the name of a spell which may or may not actually perfectly correspond with its single-target inspiration. the whole point is WE DONT KNOW. we have never been shown a specific spell description, we don't even know what level a spell it is. It doesn't matter if its based on a preexisting spell, because Durkon could have changed it if he wanted to. Saying that he couldn't do this because of suchandsuch, especially when there is no evidence that is true, is arguing for the sake of arguing and contributes nothing to the discussion.

Actually, we know the spell is 7th level. The Giant commented on it when it was pointed out that Mass Death Ward exists as a spell but he didn't know it. He pegged it as 7th level instead of 8th like the real one.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11878742#post11878742

The single-target inspirations seem to be pretty consistent for Mass versions. If you could find examples where the Mass version differs in functionality, you'd have a better point.

Yes, the spell was researched. There's no real reason to assume Durkon changed a bunch of stuff though. Malack changed something, yes, because the spell functioned as a defense against him and he was being prudent. As far as Durkon goes there's no demonstrated instance of a "because."

[Keltest]

I am not saying that the Giant has planned a particularly sneaky usage of a custom spell to take down the bad guy from day one.

I AM saying that if the Giant was going to have the characters use this strategy, I find it unlikely that it's because "The fans came up with something better than I was planning." It'll be because that was the plan all along.

And having planned things from day one was hyperbole, but not by much. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15709954&postcount=251)

For lack of a better color, Keltest:
Me thinks you should take my words a tad less literally. There often seems to be a significant distinction between what I intend to say and what you think I mean. Whether or not that is me failing to communicate, you failing to read properly, or a combination of both is beyond my knowledge, but this is not the first occasion. I find it frustrating.

I didn't take them that literally, but I have an overly dry sense of humor that sometimes gets away from me. its my fault. I try to hold back but sometimes it legitimately does not occur to me (except in hindsight) that its not actually as amusing as I thought it was

[Amphiox]

Xykon has the classic low-intelligence, high-wisdom personality. As opposed to say, V, who has high intelligence and low wisdom.


Xykon wise?!

Whut?

[Keltest]

Actually, we know the spell is 7th level. The Giant commented on it when it was pointed out that Mass Death Ward exists as a spell but he didn't know it. He pegged it as 7th level instead of 8th like the real one.

The single-target inspirations seem to be pretty consistent for Mass versions. If you could find examples where the Mass version differs in functionality, you'd have a better point.

Yes, the spell was researched. There's no real reason to assume Durkon changed a bunch of stuff though. Malack changed something, yes, because the spell functioned as a defense against him and he was being prudent. As far as Durkon goes there's no demonstrated instance of a "because."

There doesn't need to be. You keep missing the point that this is an entirely hypothetical situation to begin with. We don't need someone to highlight where he says "i think its a good idea it can do such and such" because the simple possibility that he could have thought that off panel is enough for the hypothetical situation. If you want to argue how Rich could incorporate it into the story proper, that's a topic for a different thread.

[orrion]

There doesn't need to be. You keep missing the point that this is an entirely hypothetical situation to begin with. We don't need someone to highlight where he says "i think its a good idea it can do such and such" because the simple possibility that he could have thought that off panel is enough for the hypothetical situation. If you want to argue how Rich could incorporate it into the story proper, that's a topic for a different thread.

And you keep missing the point that your stance makes any discussion pointless in the first place.

Heck, Durkon doesn't even need to have thought to work an Undead-target exception into his researched spell because the Giant could just decide he's disregarding that part of the original spell's description much like how he apparently disregarded that Overland Flight was self-only when V, Durkon, Belkar, and the kobold were on their way back to the Windy Canyon.

But it was still assumed Overland Flight was self-only in the Stickverse until V did that.

[Keltest]

And you keep missing the point that your stance makes any discussion pointless in the first place.

Heck, Durkon doesn't even need to have thought to work an Undead-target exception into his researched spell because the Giant could just decide he's disregarding that part of the original spell's description much like how he apparently disregarded that Overland Flight was self-only when V, Durkon, Belkar, and the kobold were on their way back to the Windy Canyon.

But it was still assumed Overland Flight was self-only in the Stickverse until V did that.

Aye, that's another possibility. Which begs the question of why it was brought up in the first place, since its quite obviously a nonissue.

[sengmeng]

Aye, that's another possibility. Which begs the question of why it was brought up in the first place, since its quite obviously a nonissue.

Well I certainly have time to discuss nonissues on the internet, but I think you've been confusing "technically possible things" and "good plot point"

[Kalmegil]

Well I certainly have time to discuss nonissues on the internet, but I think you've been confusing "technically possible things" and "good plot point"

I brought it up because the original question was "Casting it on Xykon will cut the lich off from healing, which could easily make the difference between victory and defeat. Do you think anyone on the Stick team has worked this out?"

My answer is basically, "No, they haven't, because it wouldn't work."

You're response (paraphrased as "Rich could make it work if he wanted to") is far less relevant to that question than my re-pointing out that no, Durkon cannot target Xykon with the spell under the rules.

It's only because of the rules that we know that Xykon would lose access to healing if Mass Death Ward worked on him. If we toss out the rules as a starting assumption (one that can be overcome by in-story evidence), then the whole discussion is pointless. Because it's just as possible that a mass death ward that did land on the undead would not block healing spells. Because house rules.

[sengmeng]

I brought it up because the original question was "Casting it on Xykon will cut the lich off from healing, which could easily make the difference between victory and defeat. Do you think anyone on the Stick team has worked this out?"

My answer is basically, "No, they haven't, because it wouldn't work."

You're response (paraphrased as "Rich could make it work if he wanted to") is far less relevant to that question than my re-pointing out that no, Durkon cannot target Xykon with the spell under the rules.

It's only because of the rules that we know that Xykon would lose access to healing if Mass Death Ward worked on him. If we toss out the rules as a starting assumption (one that can be overcome by in-story evidence), then the whole discussion is pointless. Because it's just as possible that a mass death ward that did land on the undead would not block healing spells. Because house rules.
did you maybe respond to the wrong person?
Not sure what point of mine you're referring to. It could happen. Because magic. But I doubt it. Because story.

[Kalmegil]

Not sure what point of mine you're referring to.

Well, that's because I wasn't referring to any post of yours; I quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote the one you responded to.

Sorry for the confusion.

[orrion]

Aye, that's another possibility. Which begs the question of why it was brought up in the first place, since its quite obviously a nonissue.

Everything becomes a non-issue under your interpretation.

The comic, however, is still "3.5 rules unless noted otherwise." That's what these discussions operate under.

The original question was asked under a rules interpretation, namely that a Death Ward would cut off healing to undead because the rules say negative energy heals undead and we've seen that effect in the comic.

Therefore answering under a rules interpretation is the best thing to do, and those rules say that no, it wouldn't, because that spell doesn't work on undead anyway.

It is also likely that a Mass spell would have the same effects and restrictions.

[WindStruck]

Bottom line is, we can expect Xykon to be affected by it if Durkon wishes. But then the matter of whether or not he gets a save or realizes it's not good news for him is an entirely different matter.

[MartianInvader]

Xykon wise?!

Whut?

See, for example, his speeches on power or coffee. He's never behaved like someone unwise, just someone not too intelligent who's ridiculously overpowered for most situations he's been in.

[orrion]

Bottom line is, we can expect Xykon to be affected by it if Durkon wishes. But then the matter of whether or not he gets a save or realizes it's not good news for him is an entirely different matter.

He'd get a save.

I don't see how he wouldn't know. He obviously knows that negative energy heals him and Death Ward - whatever else the Mass version might do - will still perform the primary thing that Death Ward does, which is negate negative energy effects. Xykon's favorite spell(s) are negative energy effects. Safe bet that he knows the counter to them, especially since he's been around a cleric for 30+ years.

[WindStruck]

I'm still thinking of the time Xykon used maximized magic missiles on the paladin ghosts. And that was after the fact that redcloak had to tell him that things other than force effects might not even hit them.

[SowZ]

One could argue, that lich's bones are a mindless skeleton (creature), which acts as a vessel for lich's soul.

Spells have specific functions in D&D. Applying logic such as, "If X then Y," is faulty in such a universe. Especially a meta one where the rules are actual Laws, not abstractions.

[b_jonas]

One could argue, that lich's bones are a mindless skeleton (creature), which acts as a vessel for lich's soul.

Oh no! Not http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/3187.html again!

[Kish]

The same one could argue, that a living human is a flesh, blood, and bones object that acts as a vessel for the human's soul.

That does not mean this one would have an actual case. Either time.

[orrion]

I'm still thinking of the time Xykon used maximized magic missiles on the paladin ghosts. And that was after the fact that redcloak had to tell him that things other than force effects might not even hit them.

Actually, he used Maximized Magic Missile on Soon.

Yes, Redcloak had to tell him that, but how often has Xykon had to fight incorporeal creatures? Once, as far as we know.

He uses Energy Drain all the time, and has had a cleric buddy for 30 years. The odds are slightly better that he learned some stuff about his favorite type of spell than they are about him randomly learning about creature types he'd never fought before.

Besides, even if he has no idea what Death Ward does, he'd have to be an utter moron to let someone cast an unknown spell on him or leave it there if he failed the save.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Wait, why are you under the impression that Xykon could only cast Superb Dispelling once, and what does Redcloak using GDM have to do with anything?

Also, why is everyone saying Xykon would need to use Superb Dispelling to get rid of Mass Death Ward anyway? Greater Dispel Magic would probably work just fine.
I politely invite you to return to page 1 and re-read my post - the "spent" is in reference to the "cost" of an epic spell slot Fishies mentioned in his/her post I quoted for. As it's there, he can cast it as many times as he can cast any epic spell.

And no, Superb probably isn't necessary. I was just pointing out the Xykon has it if he needs it, and Redcloak has GDM, so if he's next to Xykon, he can GD something.

[WindStruck]

One could take the argument further and claim that the lich's bones are actually a collection of inanimate objects that just happen to move of their own accord!

[Amphiox]

See, for example, his speeches on power or coffee. He's never behaved like someone unwise, just someone not too intelligent who's ridiculously overpowered for most situations he's been in.

Interesting take on it. My thought was that Xykon acts like someone capable of flashes of great wisdom if he applies himself (or if forced to by a difficult fight), but is usually too lazy to bother.

In SoD, as a living mortal, Xykon behaved decided unwise, typical for a high charisma, low-int, low-wis type character. Mechanistically he would have gained some wisdom from his Lichification (?) and could have added some to his wis score from leveling up, but I doesn't seem to me that he could have had enough of those to turn what appears to have been a low wis score into a high wis score by this point in time....

[MartianInvader]

I used to think that, but I recently re-read the entire series, and couldn't find a single case where Xykon did anything hands-down unwise. Even as a mortal in SOD, he was ridiculously overleveled for almost every challenge he faced, and was really just acting bored. But when it mattered,

"You can drop style in a pinch." (I don't remember the exact quote, but he said something along those lines). He saw Redcloak/Right-eye's betrayal coming a mile away. His plans always worked.

I guess what it comes down to is, however ridiculous Xykon behaves, I can only think of one time his plans outright failed - when Roy threw him into the gate, and he actually fought pretty wisely on that occasion (he learned there was a disruption spell on Roy's sword, so used his first action to shatter it). One could argue he was brought low by Soon and the positive-energy ghosts, but there wasn't a realistic way he could have been prepared for that.

I guess I don't subscribe to the "flashes of wisdom when he applies himself" theory as much as the "only reveals his wisdom when he has to due to being really challenged", which doesn't happen very often.

[Ghost Nappa]

One could take the argument further and claim that the lich's bones are actually a collection of inanimate objects that just happen to move of their own accord!

OH! get it! You mean the Calcium atoms! :smallamused: