No Magic World. (Need help) 3.5

[D4rkh0rus]

Me and a Friend are thinking of creating a campaign loosely based on the Assassin's Creed setting and a medieval (real life) middle east setting.

It would be a low magic setting.
Going through we grabbed and banned every class with spells/psionics except the adept (which were thinking of limiting to only healing and divination magic). and we put spell less variants for others (like the ranger, the paladin and the bard (this one's a homebrew))

Magic Items would be handled as such:
+1-+5 enhancement and most of the abilities (keen, brilliant light, collision, etc) would be refluffed to extra smithmanship, they would also require RPing to get (find the master smith, get him to agree on making you the weapon, etc... maybe collect a special material or complete a quest to get him to agree, etc...) (maybe make slashing noises on the quest while having a party member dance around you shouting "hey, hey listen, listen, hey, listen, hey...).

Same with Skill/ability items.

Any magic Item that isn't permanent (wands, scrolls, etc) and some permanent items that give magic like effects (mage's hand for example) would either be limited, or discarded.


At low level, we could throw the party humanoid targets (refluffed goblins or maybe classed characters like guards and the like.) It would primarily be a skill focused campaign, but there would be combat and epic fights...

Thats the main problem though... epic fights....
Maybe throwing a beguiler at them, or a humanoid caster that focuses on illusions might be a decent fight... but at the higher levels, what can I throw at them?

Would making classed evil characters be a good idea to throw at the party?


(the setting makes it so that while potions/balms exist, other than that, healing is somewhat limited... At the same time, its a realistic setting of sorts, so most magical creatures are out the bin... maybe could add mythical creatures like ogres and trolls... perhaps a chimaera... although thats what I'm asking... What kind of stuff would not be too powerful for a party that has no spells?

Could someone give out a list for every few lvls (say every lvl, or every two lvls) of a decent encounter for a party of that lvl?

[Gavinfoxx]

Don't use 3.5e.

It's one of the least appropriate systems for this.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Have you considered using a different system?

D20 modern with the d20 past supplement would do what you're trying to do immensely better than dungeons and dragons since that system was built with the assumption that the inclusion of magic was a variant rather than the default. Being d20 you're already familiar with the mechanics.


That out of the way;

The way you've structured your post suggests you're making it a rule that PC's can't access magic but NPC's can (beguiler?).

If that's the case then pick what you like, just be prepared to hear a lot of bitching about how it's not fair for the bad guys to have magic while the PC's can't.

If I've misread, then I don't see how you could have a reasonable campaign without making most of the enemies classed humanoids or low CR creatures.

[Neknoh]

Low Magic doesn't have to mean low-fantasy/low-mythic.

The Odyssey, Nibelungen Lied (and the original tale of Sigurd Faffnirbane) as well as most "knights kill dragons" and even The Hobbit and Lotr- books are all very low magic settings with mythological creatures or more subtle use of magic involved.

Plenty of big bads in folk-lore.

Game of Thrones (books).

Moby ****.

Attack on Titan even.

[D4rkh0rus]

Have you considered using a different system?

D20 modern with the d20 past supplement would do what you're trying to do immensely better than dungeons and dragons since that system was built with the assumption that the inclusion of magic was a variant rather than the default. Being d20 you're already familiar with the mechanics.


That out of the way;

The way you've structured your post suggests you're making it a rule that PC's can't access magic but NPC's can (beguiler?).

If that's the case then pick what you like, just be prepared to hear a lot of bitching about how it's not fair for the bad guys to have magic while the PC's can't.

If I've misread, then I don't see how you could have a reasonable campaign without making most of the enemies classed humanoids or low CR creatures.


I would rather use 3.5. and Magic would not be full magic. Im only limiting it to illusions, divination and Healing.

Would applying partial gestalt homebrew (JaronK's where Tier 3/4 Tier 4 gestalt with Npc class and tier 5/6 gestalt with another 5/6)
Make me able to include stronger opponents?

[D4rkh0rus]

Low Magic doesn't have to mean low-fantasy/low-mythic.

The Odyssey, Nibelungen Lied (and the original tale of Sigurd Faffnirbane) as well as most "knights kill dragons" and even The Hobbit and Lotr- books are all very low magic settings with mythological creatures or more subtle use of magic involved.

Plenty of big bads in folk-lore.

Game of Thrones (books).

Moby ****.

Attack on Titan even.

Yea was thinking of something like that.

[sabelo2000]

Sword & Sorcery Studios released a King Arthur setting that downplays flashy magic; it's relegated more to the subtle enchantments and illusions. Check it out for some ideas.

I run a campaign where blasting is restricted, and none of my players have figured out how to Batman or Cleric-zilla, so it's mostly a low-magic melee group. I find that classed NPCs have made the best opponents so far. I use a few stock NPCs as mooks and prepare boss NPCs for each adventure.

I also get good mileage out of melee brutes in the Monster Manual(s), especially those monsters that have DR X/some material. They can still present a good challenge if your group wasn't smart enough to pick up the Adamantine Greatsword you conveniently dropped in a troll hoard 2 adventures ago. Likewise, the low-magic flavor is maintained because they don't need energy spells or magic weapons to be effective.

For some other out-of-the-box ideas, try Monte Cook's Iron Heroes. I've never run it by itself for a campaign, but I've borrowed some low-magic ideas.

[Neknoh]

So basically, keep what foes appear more natural (dragons and giants etc included) and remove things from other planes of existance or things that like to hang around in people's dreams etc.

Just be scarce in the use of them, they exist but they are creatures of legend and myth. Thee are no Dragon skulls lining the walls of the great city, there are no troll bounties in every second village.

But that one, unfortunate day when they come upon a camp of brigands only to find the highway robbers massacred and their tents torn and trampled.

"A bear" your adventurers, who have not encountered anything mythical will say, "surely it was a bear."

But bears do not tear men in half.
Bears do not throw crushed bodies into trees.
And bears do not leave a trail similar to two horses being dragged off deeper into the forest.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Low Magic doesn't have to mean low-fantasy/low-mythic.

The Odyssey, Nibelungen Lied (and the original tale of Sigurd Faffnirbane) as well as most "knights kill dragons" and even The Hobbit and Lotr- books are all very low magic settings with mythological creatures or more subtle use of magic involved.

Plenty of big bads in folk-lore.

Game of Thrones (books).

Moby ****.

Attack on Titan even.

From a narrative perspective you're absolutely correct. However the dungeons and dragons system itself has to be severely contorted to do -no- magic in anything resembling a reasonable fashion.

I've turned the magic way down. The system starts to really strain at certain points when you do that. The OP is talking about turning it to nearly off. It's enough to strain those parts to the breaking point unless the DM really knows what he's doing and other systems do it a -lot- better and easier.

[Dawgmoah]

Sword & Sorcery Studios released a King Arthur setting that downplays flashy magic; it's relegated more to the subtle enchantments and illusions. Check it out for some ideas.

I run a campaign where blasting is restricted, and none of my players have figured out how to Batman or Cleric-zilla, so it's mostly a low-magic melee group. I find that classed NPCs have made the best opponents so far. I use a few stock NPCs as mooks and prepare boss NPCs for each adventure.

I also get good mileage out of melee brutes in the Monster Manual(s), especially those monsters that have DR X/some material. They can still present a good challenge if your group wasn't smart enough to pick up the Adamantine Greatsword you conveniently dropped in a troll hoard 2 adventures ago. Likewise, the low-magic flavor is maintained because they don't need energy spells or magic weapons to be effective.

For some other out-of-the-box ideas, try Monte Cook's Iron Heroes. I've never run it by itself for a campaign, but I've borrowed some low-magic ideas.

Green Ronin (I think) published a D20 RPG based on Cooks' "The Black Company" that is also very low magic but full of heroics. I believe that using D20 Modern with the Past book would not be close enough to what you are looking for in feel, but was still a good idea.

[Neknoh]

No doubt Kelb, and there must certainly be great systems out there for it, heck, there is a Swedish 17th century rp named Götterdämmerung with an amazing low-magic setting, but unfortunately, it's only available in Swedish.

So working with what I can think of in PF/3.5, but yeah, another D20 alltogether is probably prefferable

[Kelb_Panthera]

On my previous comment about d20 modern and the d20 past supplement for it, both come up in PDF format toward the top of a google search.

d20 modern pdf

d20 past pdf

Search those and you'll have what you need in next to no time.

[D4rkh0rus]

From a narrative perspective you're absolutely correct. However the dungeons and dragons system itself has to be severely contorted to do -no- magic in anything resembling a reasonable fashion.

I've turned the magic way down. The system starts to really strain at certain points when you do that. The OP is talking about turning it to nearly off. It's enough to strain those parts to the breaking point unless the DM really knows what he's doing and other systems do it a -lot- better and easier.


By no magic I mean no spells. Weapon enchantments are there, potions are there, and probably eternal wands too.

Just not magic unless its illusion/enchantment/divination/healing.

I may add wands too, its low level magic after all. (which will be used with UMD)

The legend of Excalibur was well known... but there were no such thing as men who could create their own planes.

Gotta say that the setting is pretty human too (99% of the world is human, with 1% going to mythical beasts, legends, etc).

So the PCs will encounter either humans, or normal animals (wolves, dogs, bears) and I'll add more epic stuff (a lone dragon, some trolls under a bridge, lady of the lake... (what? They're adventurers... they always try to kill anything that approaches them...).


What Im asking, given this kind of setting, would it be appropriate to face off the party against npcs that have class lvls? if so would having the same ECL as the party work? (say theres 5 lvl 3 chars in the party, would pitting them against 4/5 lvl 3 guards work?)




The whole setting isnt 0% magic.... more like 15-20% magic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why wouldn't it?

As long as the NPC's are subject to the same rules and restrictions as the PC's it's not only appropriate but, in a setting like this, vital to making a good story that's not just episodic "Kill the monster of the week and take its loot" adventures.

[Chronos]

I just want to pop in to congratulate you on seeing where the magic really is in D&D. Too often, when people say they want a "low-magic" world, they mean that they're cutting the magic items way back, but leaving wizards and clerics intact. That never ends well.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I just want to pop in to congratulate you on seeing where the magic really is in D&D. Too often, when people say they want a "low-magic" world, they mean that they're cutting the magic items way back, but leaving wizards and clerics intact. That never ends well.

Seconded.

When you do low magic you've got to start by stripping out the most powerful casters and moving down from there.

The most extreme version I'm comfortable with has only the magewright and adept for casting base classes and most magic items that don't produce simple numeric bonuses are difficult but not impossible to acquire. Naturally this takes a bit more care in choosing foes out of the monster manuals, as opposed to building them within the same restrictions.