[PF] Combat Patrol Feat Question

[Gabe the Bard]

I was looking at the Combat Patrol feat, and I was wondering if it could be used in a kind of retreating tactic with a reach weapon. Attacker approaches while my threatened area is 15 ft, I attack when he gets within 10 ft, then I move backwards and my threatened area is still 15 ft. Combat reflexes is a prerequisite, so repeat until I run out of attacks of opportunity or the attacker stops moving. Is this viable?

I'm wondering if a) the threatened area you establish at the beginning of the round is a fixed area and you can only move inside this area, or b) the threatened area moves with you so you threaten a different area as you move with your attacks. If the former is true, it might be possible to move outside the area so you don't threaten any squares, which would be weird but I'm not sure if this is how it works. Even if this is the case, the retreating tactics might still be viable if the threatened area is wide enough, but has anyone actually used this feat?

[NightbringerGGZ]

So first off, generally speaking a specific event can only provoke Attacks of Opportunity once. Meaning, if a target moves into your threatened space Combat Patrol lets you move to that target once to attack him. If you're using a Reach Weapon, the target could continue to move towards you after you attack and would not provoke additional AoOs from that movement.

After your movement, your threatened space would move with you. If a second enemy were to move through that space then you could move again and attack that target, provided your total movement for this round does not exceed your speed.

If you were to combine Combat Patrol with the Stand Still feat and a Reach weapon, you could potentially shut down a couple of enemies or continuously retreat without getting attacked, but will be doing no damage as well.

[grarrrg]

the threatened area you establish at the beginning of the round is a fixed area and you can only move inside this area

This.
Assume a normal Reach weapon, for a base threat-range of 10ft., and 10 Bab, which increases your "patrol threat" up to 20ft.
When you use the Full-Round to declare the area, it is fixed upon where you currently are.

If anyone provokes an AoO in this area, then you can retaliate. You may move if needed/desired to hit them. If you wind up using up your movement, then your threatened area defaults back to normal (technically it remains "Patrol sized", but since you can't move, you can't make longer ranged attacks).

[Gabe the Bard]

I think the problem I'm having with either of those interpretations is how the reach weapon would work, since you can't hit a target that's adjacent to you if you're using a weapon with 10 ft reach. Also, a target provokes when it moves OUT of your threatened area, not into it.

In theory, a medium size creature would have to be at least 10 ft away from their target constantly while making attacks of opportunity, assuming that the target is still approaching.

If the threatened area is a fixed area, and if I move outside this area while making attacks of opportunity, I would eventually threaten no spaces even if I still have attacks of opportunity remaining. OR, if the area moves with me, I would just keep retreating while making attacks of opportunity, since I need to be at least 10 ft away to make an attack with reach.

Basically, I'm wondering if the feat can be used to retreat away from the target to gain more attacks of opportunity, or if it must purely be used to approach a target that provokes an AoO inside the threatened area.

[The Random NPC]

I did some searching around, and it seems the threatened area moves with you, also, you can move twice, once to move up to the enemy to hit it, and a second time to retreat. The biggest limitation will be your speed, without some speed boosts, you'll quickly run out of movement and be unable to hit more people. Honestly you'd be better off making full attacks, any given action usually only provokes AoO once a turn. That means you're usually trading your full round to make one hit per opponent.

[Gabe the Bard]

@The Random NPC: That's true, but at low levels you only get one attack per round anyway. And even at higher levels, multiple attacks in a full attack action have progressively worse attack bonuses, while all attacks of opportunity are made with your highest attack bonus. Combat reflexes just seems like a good way to get multiple attacks if you have high dexterity, assuming you can position yourself so that you're likely to draw in the attackers, or you have some way to taunt them.

Say you're a barbarian (setting aside the fact that you just took dodge and mobility to get this feat) with 14 dexterity and you have the knockback rage power. The attacker comes at you, and you make 3 attacks of opportunity while moving backwards. Then on your turn you take a 5-ft step back, make your full attack with your reach weapon, including a knockback which, if successful, bull rushes your opponent back so they can't take a 5-ft step towards you. On their next round, assuming they are still up and approach you again, you have another 3 attacks of opportunity.

Of course, this would really only work for a duel, not for crowd control, and if the knockback fails then the pattern is broken.

[The Random NPC]

@The Random NPC: That's true, but at low levels you only get one attack per round anyway. And even at higher levels, multiple attacks in a full attack action have progressively worse attack bonuses, while all attacks of opportunity are made with your highest attack bonus. Combat reflexes just seems like a good way to get multiple attacks if you have high dexterity, assuming you can position yourself so that you're likely to draw in the attackers, or you have some way to taunt them.

Say you're a barbarian (setting aside the fact that you just took dodge and mobility to get this feat) with 14 dexterity and you have the knockback rage power. The attacker comes at you, and you make 3 attacks of opportunity while moving backwards. Then on your turn you take a 5-ft step back, make your full attack with your reach weapon, including a knockback which, if successful, bull rushes your opponent back so they can't take a 5-ft step towards you. On their next round, assuming they are still up and approach you again, you have another 3 attacks of opportunity.

Of course, this would really only work for a duel, not for crowd control, and if the knockback fails then the pattern is broken.

The problem is that you'd only get 1 attack of opportunity, not 3. Unless you have something like Come and Get Me, and at that point, you'll want them to be near you as much as possible, so you can trigger those AoO. Combat Patrol is really only good if you can force your enemies to generate AoO, which is difficult, or if there are more enemies than you have attacks, but equal or less than you have AoO's. The idea of getting a bunch of attacks at full BAB is tantalizing, but the reality is that you're unlikely to be able to make as many attacks as with a regular full attack.

[Gabe the Bard]

@The Random NPC: However, a character with Antagonize or Boasting Taunt might be able to leap back and taunt his opponent, forcing them to approach while he retreats, making multiple attacks of opportunity with his reach weapon. That's assuming the defender has enough move and the attacker is medium size, has a non-reach weapon, doesn't wander off elsewhere (due to a failed taunt), and isn't stopped from moving forward again each time the defender moves out of reach in the same round, which wouldn't happen unless the defender was using Stand Still or tripping the attacker (but that is a lot of assumptions!).

I guess this is really more of a theoretical situation, since I probably won't burn two feats for prerequisites to get this feat as a barbarian, though it might work for a fighter.

[Nightraiderx]

Standstill is good but the trip line is better for this. imo

Combat Patrol, enemy moves towards you, provokes AoO,
You trip him, provokes another AoO, stab him and leave him to wallow.
You interrupt his movement as you move out of there.

Of course, you would need a really good dex modifier to pull it off but I do
remember that the magus Kensai alt at some point in the level adds his
intelligence modifier to the AoO range limit.

[The Random NPC]

I think you misunderstand, even with Antagonize or Boasting Taunt, you get 1 AoO, here's how it would go.
Step 1: Patroler sets up Combat Patrol, turn ends.
Step 2: Enemy approaches Patroler, provokes AoO due to exiting threatened square.
Step 3: Patroler takes AoO, moves backwards for remaining speed (if Patroler doesn't have a reach weapon, he provokes for exiting a threatened square).
Step 4: Enemy continues to move closer to Patroler, safe from counter attack, because movement can only provoke once.
Step 5: If able to, enemy hits Patroler. If not, turn ends.
Step 7: GoTo Step 1.
As you can see, you only get to hit your enemy once, and possible get hit anyways. If you have the trip line or something, you don't really want to move away, as you want to keep your enemies within your threatened area.

[Nightraiderx]

If you want to withdraw tripping is the best option, it's perfectly viable for escape methods with a reach weapon, they would have to move into your square again anyways unless they have ranged weapons.

[Gabe the Bard]

@Nightraiderx: Tripping seems like a good way to keep up crowd control, at least at low to mid levels. But I was going more for a simple (or may not so simple) way to increase damage output through AoO.

@The Random NPC: Actually, the PFSRD mentions that multiple attacks of opportunities can be made against the same opponent in a single round:

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).

[grarrrg]

@The Random NPC: Actually, the PFSRD mentions that multiple attacks of opportunities can be made against the same opponent in a single round:


If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).

Yes you can make multiple against the same opponent, but they have to do different things that provoke.

[Gabe the Bard]

@grarrrg & The Random NPC: I guess this is what you're referring to:

Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

Well, that puts a damper on my kung fu action movie image of a guy swinging his sword while flying backwards through the air.

I guess I'll have to stick to Come and Get Me, but then that begs another question. Can a barbarian with a reach weapon even use this rage power if his attacker is adjacent to him? Technically the attacker is hitting me, but he's not in my threatened range. Would I have to hit him with something else like claws or a bite attack?

[The Random NPC]

You wouldn't be able to hit them with any reach weapon unless it lets you attack adjacent to yourself, like with a whip. However, you could attack with a weapon that doesn't threaten, as long as you can reach them with it. Just remember, you can't attack with a natural weapon that is being used to hold a manufactured weapon.