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Perseus
2014-01-07, 09:13 PM
This is my attempt to create a skill system of my own, this is roughly based on D&D Next (mostly because that is what I'm dealing with currently) but I hope the finished project will be able to be incorporated into other editions of the game and have specific rules for each conversion.

The skill list is not finished, I know that XYZ skill isn't on the list, I'm not to worried about that just yet.

There are three sorts of skills in this system Defensive Skills (Skills that defend you from other skills), Contest Skills (Skills that force a contest against a defensive skill, creature, or object), and Passive Skills (Skills that give you base abilities).

You gain your initial skills from your background (I have not determined the number but hey, work in progress)

You can use any skill without training, when you do this you make an ability check (1d20 + Ability Modifier) versus the target DC.

Training
Defensive Skills: +2 DC + 1/Skill Point
Contest Skills: +2 to Ability Check +1/Skill Point
Passive Skills: Specific to the skill

Skill Points
As you level up you gain a number of skill points, however your ECL (effective character level) determines how many skill points you may invest into any single skill.
Level 1 - 4: 0 Skill Point
Level 5 - 8: 1 Skill Point
Level 9 - 12: 2 Skill Points
Level 13+: 3 Skill Points
Special: Skill Points may be invested into a skill or be used to gain training in a new skill. I'm still not sure on the best advancement of skill points.


General Skill Lists

Defensive Skills: These skills will have a base DC set. When you train this skill your DC increases. Base DC = 8 + Ability Mod + Training + Skill Points.

Perception (Listen)(Con or Wis)
Perception (Sight)(Con or Wis)
Insight (Deception) (Int or Cha)
Insight (Persuasive)(Int or Cha)

Contest Skills: Roll 1d20 + Ability Mod + Training + Skill Points versus Defensive Skill DC.

Bluff: You know how to lie and misdirect better than your peers. You gain a +2 to any Charisma or Intelligence check against an opponent’s Insight (Deception) DC.

Intimidate: Either through using words or muscle, you have trained to intimidate your opponents. You gain a +2 to any Strength, Intelligent, or Charisma check against an opponent’s Insight (Persuasive) DC.

Heal: You are better trained at healing the injured; your skill goes well beyond just band aids and gauze. With your care a creature can make a Constitution Check versus an injury’s DC. This save gains a Bonus equal to your Wisdom Modifier + 2.

Forgery: When you make a Dexterity or Intelligence Check to forge a document you gain a bonus to the save equal to +2.

Gather Information: When you try to gather information you gain a +2 to any Charisma or Intelligence Check against an opponent’s Insight (Persuasive) or (Bluff) DC.

Spell Craft: When you make a Ability Check to use Spell Craft you gain a bonus to the check equal to +2. Special: The type of Ability Check is determined by the type of magic item you are using, each magic item has its own DC.

Disguise: Your ability to disguise yourself has become an art. You gain a + 2 to the Dexterity or Charisma Check against a creature's Insight (Deception) DC. Special: Dexterity Checks are for physical disguises while charisma is for disguising a voice.

Move Silently: You are harder to detect via noise. As a move action you move at half speed and you gain a +2 to the Dexterity Check versus a creature’s Perception (Listen) DC to keep from being noticed.

Ride: You learn to ride mounts exceptionally well and can even ride creatures that are ill suited to being a mount (like the party's Barbarian...). When you make a Dexterity, Strength, or Constitution Check to use the Ride skill you gain a +2 to the Save.

Perform: Your ability to Perform has become an art. You gain a + 2 to the Strength, Dexterity, or Charisma Check versus a creature’s Insight DC. Special: Depending on the type of performance you will make a different type of ability check.

Survival: Your ability to Survive makes Steve Irwin look like a hipster walking in the park. You gain a +2 to your Constitution, Intelligence, or Wisdom Check versus the task DC.

Disable Device: You have been trained to open locks and disable devices. You gain a +2 to Dexterity and Intelligence Checks to open a lock or disable a device. Special: Each Device or Lock will have their own DC of 8 + Device Difficulty (1 - 10) .

Passive Skills

Knowledge (Arcana): You know Tier 4 information that relates to Arcana. For each skill point the tier of information you know increases by one to a max of Tier 1 information relating to this skill.

Knowledge (Religion): You know Tier 4 information that relates to Religion. For each skill point the tier of information you know increases by one to a max of Tier 1 information relating to this skill.

Knowledge (Nature): You know Tier 4 information that relates to Nature. For each skill point the tier of information you know increases by one to a max of Tier 1 information relating to this skill.

Knowledge (Engineering): You know Tier 4 information that relates to Engineering. For each skill point the tier of information you know increases by 1 to a max of Tier 1 information relating to this skill.

Knowledge (Dungeoneering): You know Tier 4 information that relates to Dungeoneering. For each skill point the tier of information you know increases by 1 to a max of Tier 1 information relating to this skill.

Jump: You gain a Jump Speed equal to 15 feet, this may be used as a move action or anytime you use an ability that allows you to move. For each skill point your Jump Speed increases by 5 feet.

Climb: You gain a Climb Speed equal to 15 feet, this may be used as a move action or anytime you use an ability that allows you to move. For every skill point your Climb speed increases by 5 feet.

Swim: You gain a Swim Speed equal to 15 feet, this may be used as a move action or anytime you use an ability that allows you to move. For every skill point your Swim speed increases by 5 feet.

Balance: You gain a Balance Speed equal to 15 feet, this may be used anytime you move. When you balance you can move over even the narrowest (down to .25” wide) of platforms. For every skill point your Balance speed increases by 5 feet.

So any comments or questions? I'm sure I'm skipping over something or missing something...

Perseus
2014-01-07, 09:14 PM
Saved for future work... Mostly just in case.

Seerow
2014-01-07, 09:42 PM
So if I'm understanding this right, stripped down this works as:

1) You start with a background that gives you a handful of starting skills. You gain a training bonus TBD
2) As you level up you gain skill points. Amount gained TBD These can't actually be invested until level 5.
3) When you invest skill points, you invest them into Defensive, Contest, or Passive skills. Investing in the Defensive or Contest skills gets you a +2 bonus in that skill. Investing in the Passive skill gets you a minor boost to whatever the passive skill grants.


So first: Is the above correct?
Second: What is the point of separating the different skill types? If they're all dipping into the same resource, what's the point of the separation? It might be interesting to have a variety of skill point types, so everyone has a variety, but if they're all the same the classification seems meaningless.

Perseus
2014-01-08, 08:49 AM
So if I'm understanding this right, stripped down this works as:

1) You start with a background that gives you a handful of starting skills. You gain a training bonus TBD
2) As you level up you gain skill points. Amount gained TBD These can't actually be invested until level 5.
3) When you invest skill points, you invest them into Defensive, Contest, or Passive skills. Investing in the Defensive or Contest skills gets you a +2 bonus in that skill. Investing in the Passive skill gets you a minor boost to whatever the passive skill grants.


So first: Is the above correct?
Second: What is the point of separating the different skill types? If they're all dipping into the same resource, what's the point of the separation? It might be interesting to have a variety of skill point types, so everyone has a variety, but if they're all the same the classification seems meaningless.

See, I knew I would miss a few things, thanks for the input.

1: When you gain a skill you gain training in that skill. As of right now that is a +2 to the ability check.

2: Before level 5 you will be able to choose a couple more skills that won't be from your background. Everyone (except skill classes) will have the same number of skills once they hit level 4, beyond that you can specialize or generalize however you see fit. However your skills will be different depending on your background and personal choices.

3: Yup, I also want to put in a ruling that will allow you to take skill points out of a skill and place them in another skill (perhaps on a number of encounters basis... This way characters can show that they stopped using one skill and have focused on another)

The separation comes in handy when making backgrounds. A DM who wants a more opened way of giving skills can say something like...

"Make your own background and give yourself X Defensive Skills, Y Contest Skills, and Z Passive Skills that are all in some sort of theme".

But the backgrounds I would like to make should give each character the same number of skills as another background but not the same number in each catagory.

Example:

Soldier:
2 Defensive Skills
3 Contest Skills
4 Passive Skills

Spy:
3 Defensive Skills
4 Contest Skills
2 Passive Skills

Academic:
1 Defensive Skill
2 Contest Skills
6 Passive Skills (5 Knowledge)

Note: the numbers here are pulled out of my hat so it isn't like I have the math figured out on how many skills PCs should have.

DMMike
2014-01-08, 10:51 AM
1: When you gain a skill you gain training in that skill. As of right now that is a +2 to the ability check.

2: Before level 5 you will be able to choose a couple more skills that won't be from your background. Everyone (except skill classes) will have the same number of skills once they hit level 4, beyond that you can specialize or generalize however you see fit. However your skills will be different depending on your background and personal choices.

3: Yup, I also want to put in a ruling that will allow you to take skill points out of a skill and place them in another skill (perhaps on a number of encounters basis... This way characters can show that they stopped using one skill and have focused on another)

The separation comes in handy when making backgrounds. A DM who wants a more opened way of giving skills can say something like...


1) My skill system leaves skills as flat as possible: you get one point per level, and you can't exceed your level. To simulate the training effect, I allow characters to take a perk for +3 to that skill.

2) This is a cool idea, whether you intended it or not. Altering the rules at different levels can make leveling up more interesting, since you're not just improving your character; you're changing HOW you improve your character.

3) Decent ruling, but it waters down class identity. If someone has a class or profession, odds are that they stay strong in the same skillset throughout. Losing skill points sounds like something that happens when you change classes, or get lazy for 5 years.

Modos RPG is mostly skill-based, and allows characters to make their own backgrounds in a sort of Skyrim/classless way. Check it out if you want some rules inspiration (it's linked in the first post here):
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?349392-Modos-Rulebook-the-real-time-editing-thread

Seerow
2014-01-08, 11:27 AM
Personally, I'd recommend actually combining the Passive skills with the other skills. You have so few skill ranks (max 4 levels of training) that you should easily be able to tie in passive capabilities with skill.

For example, you have the general Athletics skill, which gives a bonus to Str/Con checks to do things like run longer, jump beyond your normal limit, etc. Then when you train it, and each time you invest a skill rank, gain one passive (gain a swim speed. Increase your land move speed. Increase your base jump distance, etc).

Come up with a handful of options for each skill, and you end up with a much more interesting system that makes each of those ranks much more meaningful than a +2 might be otherwise.





In my skill system, I separate out Knowledge/Profession skills from active skills. Every main attribute (Str, Dex, Int, Cha) gets 4 linked active skills. Knowledge/Profession skills are less uniform, and are the sorts of things that can be made up on the fly (ie "Yes, sure. Your character can have Knowledge(Obscure Pop Culture References) or Perform(Tesla Coils), whatever"). The knowledge/profession skills also have no level based cap, they just cost more points as you gain more of them. So you can have the level 1 focused commoner who is the best smith in the land without worrying about him getting all of the perks associated with high level characters.

Every Active Skill has a starting max rank of 2. For every 3 levels beyond 1st (so 4th, 7th, 10th, etc), your max rank increases by 1. Every rank gives a +3 bonus on checks involving that skill. Additionally, set challenges have a rating. So if your skill is above that rating (so you've got 5 skill ranks against a rating 4 task), you gain advantage. If your skill is below that rating, you gain disadvantage. Skill Focus gives you a flat +1 rating in that skill, allowing you to break the normal level limits.

Characters start the game with 4 skill points, and gain 1 at every level. Starting at level 11 they gain 2 per level (however skills above rank 5 cost 2 per level, so you can keep advancing your maxed skills at the regular rate or choose to boost up new ones faster). Some classes (like rogue) gain bonus skill ranks as they level, but what is described is the norm for most characters. Additionally everyone gains 4+int modifier knowledge/profession skills at first level, and after that gains one free one only every other level. Additional knowledge/profession skills can be acquired through training or GM reward (so the GM might reward a rank in some knowledge due to it relating to the story. Or in downtime the players might choose to train some skills)

In my system all classes gain access to special abilities, so cool high end things for active skills get picked up via class mechanics, where they can have a resource cost to balance really potent things (but they have skill rank requirements). But I tend to prefer a higher fantasy game than what you're shooting for, so as opposed to Swim Speed 15, I'm looking at things like Water Breathing, Run on Water, Run Up Walls, Freedom of Movement... things that even if you want usable effectively at will, you want there to be some sort of cost or tradeoff for. For example a 10th level Fighter might be able to pick up Water Breathing and Freedom of Movement, with 5 ranks in athletics, and at that point can match Beowulf's feat of swimming for days and stopping to battle giant sea monsters in the middle.

Perseus
2014-01-08, 12:21 PM
1) My skill system leaves skills as flat as possible: you get one point per level, and you can't exceed your level. To simulate the training effect, I allow characters to take a perk for +3 to that skill.

2) This is a cool idea, whether you intended it or not. Altering the rules at different levels can make leveling up more interesting, since you're not just improving your character; you're changing HOW you improve your character.

3) Decent ruling, but it waters down class identity. If someone has a class or profession, odds are that they stay strong in the same skillset throughout. Losing skill points sounds like something that happens when you change classes, or get lazy for 5 years.

Modos RPG is mostly skill-based, and allows characters to make their own backgrounds in a sort of Skyrim/classless way. Check it out if you want some rules inspiration (it's linked in the first post here):
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?349392-Modos-Rulebook-the-real-time-editing-thread


Note: Off to lunch but wanted to clarify something.

On number 3.

You don't lose skill points, you just focus your efforts in other places. Being trained in the skill will represent the basic day to day training to do to stay just a bit better than others. However if you really want to excel at something then you must put more time and effort into that skills than others.

A low level soldier may have training in climb, jump, and knowledge engineering (1 skill point). He has one skill point to spend and knows his mission will need him to climb quickly... So before the mission he focuses on climbing and neglects Knowledge Engineering a bit. He is still trained and knows basic knowledge in engineering but he spent his time learning/practicing his climbing in order to succeed at the mission.

His skills would be Climb (1 skill point), jump, and knowledge engineering.

Oh! I forgot to add that I have a few tables to add in... However it will take me a bit to fit them in.

Heal and Survival are two I fleshed out already, I need to do one for pretty much every non-passive skill as a general outline for what the skill can be used on.

Note: climbing on creatures will be spelled out, a combination of climb and a ride check. ;p

Edit: Something else that I picked up after I hit submit...

Class and Skills are not related at all. Your class features are "skills" that come from your class but your skills are from your background/personal choices.

You could be a Wizard that has the Spy background and doesn't have knowledge arcana. Sure they can cast spells but perhaps they decided never to really study spells and such and make their own or be able to give a lecture on Arcana.

It is like having a job and having skills that are nothing to do with that job. Sure you have skills that allow you to do your job (class features) but even though I'm a scientist I can still dunk a basketball.

3.P/4e's idea of class = skills have always bugged me.

erikun
2014-01-08, 05:04 PM
Is it intended for an untrained contest skill to succeed against a trained passive skill roughly 55% of the time? Note also that a trained contest skill succeeds against an untrained passive skill 75% of the time, generally better as the character has likely focused ability scores on the trained skill.

Perseus
2014-01-08, 05:16 PM
Is it intended for an untrained contest skill to succeed against a trained passive skill roughly 55% of the time? Note also that a trained contest skill succeeds against an untrained passive skill 75% of the time, generally better as the character has likely focused ability scores on the trained skill.

No clue yet, however the math so far is based on D&D Next's saving throw system.

I have the base mechanics down though I need to change some stuff around.... I would like to get the math out of the way too.

Though a trained person should have a better chance to beat an untrained person... But it shouldn't be to ridiculous until the person trained has one or two skill points versus a person without training (assuming the same ability scores).

The swingy nature of the d20 isn't my favorite but I would like for it to work in this system.

What would be a good base chance of success between trained and untrained?

Ninjadeadbeard
2014-01-08, 06:59 PM
No clue yet, however the math so far is based on D&D Next's saving throw system.

I have the base mechanics down though I need to change some stuff around.... I would like to get the math out of the way too.

Though a trained person should have a better chance to beat an untrained person... But it shouldn't be to ridiculous until the person trained has one or two skill points versus a person without training (assuming the same ability scores).

The swingy nature of the d20 isn't my favorite but I would like for it to work in this system.

What would be a good base chance of success between trained and untrained?

Just my two cents, but I really love this idea. I think the Trained Bonus should be increased to +3, as I've heard that number used a lot in similar threads where revising the Skill System came up. +3 is more significant an increase than +2. I'm terrible at math, so I'm not sure what the relative percentages are, but I figure Trained VS Untrained's chance of success should start at 65% and then jump up dramatically from there. There really shouldn't be a chance for the high school jock to take the knight in a sword fight.

erikun
2014-01-08, 07:03 PM
What would be a good base chance of success between trained and untrained?
This is kind of something that I should be asking you. :smalltongue: It really depends on how competent you want trained characters to be, and how incompetent you want untrained characters.

I'd be inclined to set it at 8+Ability for untrained defenses (meaning that without training, it's easier to attack than defend) but probably 14+Ability+skill ranks for trained defenses (meaning that, with training, you have about a 50% chance of succeeding). I'd also likely increase the training bonus to +4 for other skills as well, to indicate a reasonable difference between a trained and untrained person.

You'd want some method in the system of getting around defenses, though. It would be really easy to achieve an 18 defense with this method early on, and you don't want untrained characters to be forced to challenge that directly. Some method of answering the "How do we get past the really alert guard?" question, in effect.

Perseus
2014-01-08, 10:02 PM
Personally, I'd recommend actually combining the Passive skills with the other skills. You have so few skill ranks (max 4 levels of training) that you should easily be able to tie in passive capabilities with skill.

For example, you have the general Athletics skill, which gives a bonus to Str/Con checks to do things like run longer, jump beyond your normal limit, etc. Then when you train it, and each time you invest a skill rank, gain one passive (gain a swim speed. Increase your land move speed. Increase your base jump distance, etc).

Come up with a handful of options for each skill, and you end up with a much more interesting system that makes each of those ranks much more meaningful than a +2 might be otherwise.

The tables that I'm working on will give the different uses of skills. Most of them will work off from 3.5 skills with some alterations.

Although I'm not a fan of consolidated skills such as from D&D 4e/Pathfinder, well I used to be and lately (past couple years really) I've grown to not like them.

Some skills will have multiple uses like Survival and Heal but there shouldn't be a need for skills like Athletics/Acrobatics.



Just my two cents, but I really love this idea. I think the Trained Bonus should be increased to +3, as I've heard that number used a lot in similar threads where revising the Skill System came up. +3 is more significant an increase than +2. I'm terrible at math, so I'm not sure what the relative percentages are, but I figure Trained VS Untrained's chance of success should start at 65% and then jump up dramatically from there. There really shouldn't be a chance for the high school jock to take the knight in a sword fight.




This is kind of something that I should be asking you. :smalltongue: It really depends on how competent you want trained characters to be, and how incompetent you want untrained characters.

I'd be inclined to set it at 8+Ability for untrained defenses (meaning that without training, it's easier to attack than defend) but probably 14+Ability+skill ranks for trained defenses (meaning that, with training, you have about a 50% chance of succeeding). I'd also likely increase the training bonus to +4 for other skills as well, to indicate a reasonable difference between a trained and untrained person.

You'd want some method in the system of getting around defenses, though. It would be really easy to achieve an 18 defense with this method early on, and you don't want untrained characters to be forced to challenge that directly. Some method of answering the "How do we get past the really alert guard?" question, in effect.

I see a common thought of +2 isn't really a noticeable difference between trained/untrained.

I'll need to look into this.

...

D-naras
2014-01-15, 11:17 AM
i use this guidelines for my system (assuming same aptitude/ability scores):

Untrained vs Untrained = 50%
Trained vs Untrained = 75% favouring the trained character
Expert vs Untrained = 90% favouring the expert
Master vs Untrained = 100% for the master.

It just feels better when you get so good that you always succeed versus the common man. :smalltongue:
Sadly, this is hard to do with a d20. Maybe if you grant advantage to master-level characters? This way there won't be as many errant natural 1s and 3s to ruin your power trip.
Also, you should decide whether you want starting characters to start really awesome at one thing, or competent in numerous. If you use character level to scale skills, you can't have the former. Personally, I could see sacrificing other skills to increase your cap with a single one as feasible. So you can have backgrounds like Thief: training in stealth, bluff, disable device, jump, climb and World's Best Climber: training in Climb (4 skill points)and survival.