End of book: the Order levels up!

[Finagle]

Well, it seems new levels are in order for everyone. Are OOTS going to get any new spiffy abilities soon? Assuming nobody does anything silly like take a level of druid or something.

[RMS Oceanic]

Well Vaarsuvius is already level 15 or 16, so they're on the verge of getting heavy hitters like Meteor Swarm, Time Stop or Wish. Durkon seemed to be only level 14, meaning he's not far from Eighth Level spells. However becoming a vampire would mean he has to gain the XP to reach level 23 before he can get there, which will take a while.

[ChristianSt]

While it is possible that some new abilities will be mentioned (i.e. I think we already know that Roy leveled up since he got resurrected, because of his new fancy anti-caster move he deployed against Miron), I don't think we will see any kind of level up strip as we did have early in the comic. So if they leveled up, we will see some way down the rode that they leveled up, but I don't think we can really point "here is where they gained that level".

Just follow the Geekery thread closely, they will sure state if some members of the Order did level up or not [or if there is no consensus whether they did]

[factotum]

I don't see that they're likely to be levelling up. Most of the enemies they've been facing are low-level mooks, and you don't get XP for those even if there are thousands of them. In addition, I doubt the Giant would want to leave Durkon behind so quickly, and his new LA means he won't be levelling for a long, long time!

[RMS Oceanic]

I don't see that they're likely to be levelling up. Most of the enemies they've been facing are low-level mooks, and you don't get XP for those even if there are thousands of them. In addition, I doubt the Giant would want to leave Durkon behind so quickly, and his new LA means he won't be levelling for a long, long time!

They fought the Linear Guild, they thwarted some traps, Elan roleplayed his way out of the Microcosm and could get XP for that, they beat a Sand Elemental, Belkar "defeats" Bloodgeast, and they managed to drive off three high level characters ("Defeat" doesn't always mean "kill"). There's plenty of opportunities for XP this day.

[Wereboar_It]

I don't see that they're likely to be levelling up. Most of the enemies they've been facing are low-level mooks, and you don't get XP for those even if there are thousands of them.

Actually, they have defeated miron, laurin and tarquin which are high level NPCs, so it's a lot of xps.

Besides, you don't get xp just for killing things. This isn't diablo, you know.

[Kish]

Indeed, they overcame the challenge presented by Tarquin's army, and then by three borderline-epic goons. For each of those they'd get XP, in D&D.

Whether that will matter here is a different question; "Ceci n'est pas une partie de Donjons et Dragons," after all.

[Socksy]

Perhaps Elan hits 16th, boosts his INT, and takes that level of wizard he wanted:smalltongue:

[Jay R]

In addition, I doubt the Giant would want to leave Durkon behind so quickly, and his new LA means he won't be levelling for a long, long time!

In general, I don't see leveling up as leaving another character behind.

In this specific case, they'd have to level up more than once to catch up to all the new abilities Durkon has.

[jidasfire]

Also worth considering a bit is who's getting all the nice new magic items lying around? It seems likely that V will get Laurin's lost Ioun Stone, but there's still Tarquin's whip and dagger lying around, items we can probably assume are decently magical. I've been in the camp of Belkar getting Tarquin's dagger, since it probably has a higher plus than his, and he might simply like it on the basis that it was the blade that killed Nale (Belkar seems to have a disproportionately strong dislike of him in comparison to the other comic villains). Meanwhile, I think adding a whip to Elan's arsenal would make an interesting choice for a Dashing Swordsman, giving him the ability to swing in and out of crazy situations, not to mention non-lethally defeat opponents, as is his wont. Finally, and this one is pure speculation on my part, it would be very nice if Julio handed off the Chaos Sabre to Elan, seeing as Elan is down another rapier, and the old pirate might be inclined to help his protege out one last time. Again, that's speculation, but given how cool of a name it has, it seems at least possible it might become important.

[Zerozzz0290]

Lets check:

Take care of traps: maybe not since they were simple traps caugh up between ilusions and such.

EPIC LEVEL ILUSION: SO FREAKING YES! surviving that thing should gain them some XP.

Linear Guild: We know as a "rival party" they level up as soon as our heroes do so the are at least an equal level challenge for the encounter. They defeated them once in Tarquin's Palace by taking out some of their team mates nd making Nale run for his life. Then they defeated them a second time by making them retreat, plus the second time they hay Malack and Tarquin so pump the challenge up a little.

Sand Elemental: We know it's a Summon Monster IX so it should pay a little XP specially since they were incomplete at the time so more XP for some of them.

Big Army: Not so much a fight more of a "challenge" and getting out of there should count as "success".

Final showdown Tarquin+Myron+Laurin: Myron is taken out (made scram even if he didn't choose to do so), Laurin bailed when confronted with near defeat and Tarquin has been defeated (the fact that he gives up and tries to negotiate and even suggest to be taken prisoner is equivalent to defeat). Three HIGH LEVEL enemies defeated should count for some XP.

So I don't know if they take a new level but they have been in many situations which would gain them XP

[zimmerwald1915]

Also worth considering a bit is who's getting all the nice new magic items lying around?
Bandana, Blackwing, and Mister Scruffy, in increasing order of likelihood.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Is it telling that my first thought on reading Elan gets the whip is "Zorro jokes"?

[jidasfire]

Is it telling that my first thought on reading Elan gets the whip is "Zorro jokes"?

That's pretty much exactly where I was going with it.

[Seerow]

Lets check:

Take care of traps: maybe not since they were simple traps caugh up between ilusions and such.

EPIC LEVEL ILUSION: SO FREAKING YES! surviving that thing should gain them some XP.

Linear Guild: We know as a "rival party" they level up as soon as our heroes do so the are at least an equal level challenge for the encounter. They defeated them once in Tarquin's Palace by taking out some of their team mates nd making Nale run for his life. Then they defeated them a second time by making them retreat, plus the second time they hay Malack and Tarquin so pump the challenge up a little.

Sand Elemental: We know it's a Summon Monster IX so it should pay a little XP specially since they were incomplete at the time so more XP for some of them.

Big Army: Not so much a fight more of a "challenge" and getting out of there should count as "success".

Final showdown Tarquin+Myron+Laurin: Myron is taken out (made scram even if he didn't choose to do so), Laurin bailed when confronted with near defeat and Tarquin has been defeated (the fact that he gives up and tries to negotiate and even suggest to be taken prisoner is equivalent to defeat). Three HIGH LEVEL enemies defeated should count for some XP.

So I don't know if they take a new level but they have been in many situations which would gain them XP

Basically this. The Order has gone through at least half a Dozen back to back encounters, all at a CR equal to their level or higher (most higher. Epic Illusion trap is likely at least CR20-21. Linear Guild + Tarquin is their CR+4 or 5. The army is probably an on level encounter (was a situation to get out of, but most of the threat was due to being down V and Belkar being nearly dead entering the fight), and Tarquin and co are 3 NPCs all seemingly several levels higher than the party, I'd peg that whole final chase/fight as a CR of their level +5.

Really, this whole last year or two of strips has been a long death trap for the order. If they didn't level up out of it, I would be shocked. It was a really long day, full of one blow after another pushing them to their limits. I can't think of any other situation in the comic more deserving of pushing the group up a level.

[Diadem]

How many equal-level challenges do you need to go from 16 to 17?

[Rogar Demonblud]

If I remember the math behind the rules right, 13 CR appropriate encounters equals new level. This does not allow for story awards, roleplaying bonuses, etc.

[SavageWombat]

By the numbers, they should level up - but I remain uncertain that Rich wants V to have access to 9th level spells this soon (or possibly even at all).

I think they're going to float in the 15-16th netherworld for some time.

[Living Oxymoron]

Perhaps Elan hits 16th, boosts his INT, and takes that level of wizard he wanted:smalltongue:

Actually, I'm pretty sure that reaching the 16th level (and thus 14th of Bard) means new healing spells for Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Simplest way around that is for V to not level up because of all the XP she missed out on. Illusion trap, LG in the hall, sand elemental, in fact most of the take doesn't have V's name on the tag.

Which means more XP for the rest of the group.

[Chronos]

It seems likely that V only just reached 16, and so probably won't hit 17 today. And coming at it from a story perspective, likely won't ever hit 17, though it remains to be seen what the Giant will do to prevent it: The protagonists having access to 9th-level spells makes it a lot harder to tell the story. He's already taken care of that in Durkon's case, with his huge LA.

[Shale]

It's much easier to manage a 17th-level wizard than a 17th-level cleric, though. V could finally be able to cast 9th-level spells only to discover that there's no teacher or spellbook around from which to learn the heavy hitters like Wish. It's not like Durkon, who just needs to ask for Miracle or True Resurrection once he hits an appropriate level.

[Copperdragon]

Without going too deep into the rules, which are copyrighted: They need roughly each 15.000 xp from level 15 to 16 and then again from 16 to 17.

That is assuming they had just the xp the needed for their current level when the day with the pyramid started, which is unlikely as they did do a lot of adventuring etc before that.

The found the windy canoyon, made their way through it, found the pyramid, had all the encounters (traps, foes, illusions etc) in it, then blew it up and survived an encounter with three near-epic or epic foes plus an army. They then overcame the final battle of this arc vs. Tarquin. This should easily scratch on the 15k needed, and if we assume they did not need the full xp they are going to get their level and are probably a good way towards the next once this "gaming story session" ends and the XP are awarded.
The entire EoB-storyline should accumulate even to two or at least "nearly" two full levels (I'd estimate it all, including the fight vs. the Linear Guild etc) should total up to like ~20k to ~30k (depending on how much story xp is given) for each character.

I estimate they will hit the range of 18 to 20 at the end of the story, those who are far ahead or have a lot of extra story will hit epic (ignoring that Durkon is already epic since his vampirism).

[jidasfire]

It's much easier to manage a 17th-level wizard than a 17th-level cleric, though. V could finally be able to cast 9th-level spells only to discover that there's no teacher or spellbook around from which to learn the heavy hitters like Wish. It's not like Durkon, who just needs to ask for Miracle or True Resurrection once he hits an appropriate level.

Honestly, I suspect this is partially why Durkon is a vampire now. It gives him a lot of new powers so he doesn't get left behind by the party, but it also keeps all those game-breaking 9th-level spells from falling into his hands. Not to mention, making him powered by evil keeps him from using all the ridiculously powerful holy abilities that might allow him to make short work of Xykon.

[DLcygnet]

Simplest way around that is for V to not level up because of all the XP she missed out on. Illusion trap, LG in the hall, sand elemental, in fact most of the take doesn't have V's name on the tag.

Which means more XP for the rest of the group.

True, but while everybody else was on a magic carpet ride through the desert, V had a 2 day semi-solo adventure in the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing that might make up for any lost XP later.

[David Argall]

Our writer has a habit of only visiting a theme once. So since we have had strips on leveling up and on loot division, these are unlikely to be strips again. We may get passing notes that the party is higher level or has new toys, but we won't get extensive discussion.
Note too that leveling and loot discussion are rather limiting for the author. He has to keep in mind that the party is now X+1 level and/or it has this or that goodie. All sorts of plot ideas are off the table if we have these details set in stone. Far better [at least if the writer is feeling lazy] that this be kept vague.

[hamishspence]

Unless it's chosen as a running gag.

[Katuko]

While V would have little reason not to pick Wish at 9th level, the Giant could quietly opt to just avoid handing out game-breaking powers, and have V take Meteor Swarm, Crushing Hand, Shapechange, Time Stop or Mage's Disjunction instead. These are spells fit the character, as we've seen V's penchant for blasting and the various Hand spells already. Shapechange, Time Stop and Disjunction came to good use during the soul splice, so V has also gotten a preview of what they can do.

I don't think we'll see Mass Hold Monster, because the Order can cut through regular hobgoblins with relative ease at this point. The final battle vs Team Evil will require other things. Power Word: Kill could probably work to take down Redcloak, if they hurt him quickly and then have V slay him before he can heal. It's a bit anti-climatic, though, and I expect something else to happen between him and Xykon that will decide the ultimate outcome.

V has barred Conjuration and Necromancy, and the Divination spell (Foresight) is probably out too, unless V sees fit to take it so that the effects of the Fiends' "time out" plans might possibly be diminished.

[Living Oxymoron]

I don't think we'll see Mass Hold Monster, because the Order can cut through regular hobgoblins with relative ease at this point.

You are thinking about Mass Hold Person, aren't you? Usually, Mass Hold Monster is aimed at more diverse types of monsters and Mass Hold Person has humanoids as its only possible targets.

I suppose that Dominate Monster is a spell that V would want, since he/she loves enchantment spells, but it is still early to guess his/her 9th level spells. There is a lot of strong options in the 8th level repertoire that I think V should choose, like Mind Blank (specially after a battle against a Psion).

[Copperdragon]

I doubt the levelling is going to get completely ignored from now on. Especially for the casters gaining levels and thus completely new powers and powers of a new quality at that.
Elan and Vaarsuivus change at what the characters can do on a quite fundamental level with each level. With Roy and Haley you can say "Well, they are better at swinging swords or dodging and shooting arrows, so what?" and play a new feat here or there, but Elan being able to cast more bard spells would be a fundamental change in what he can do.

It is even more extreme with Vaarsuvius: If he gained the ability to cast level 9 spells, it is basically the end of all aracane power normal mortals can even dream to obtain. In a way, Vaarusivus would have achieved all the Ultimate Arcane Power that he could ever reasonably have dreamed of as measly level 1 or level 5 mage. He'd have achieved that on his own, without a cheap trick, without selling his soul, he unquestionably and noticeably would be become one of the most powerful casters that have ever lived and surely be among a very few in each generation who achieve that power.
You cannot tell me that would not be something important in that character's vita and development, especially if you consider what he was willing to do for arcane power in general. He literally sacrificed his marriage and familiy life (with was broken much longer than we know him!) over gaining more arcane power. Now he is there... that must be important for that character so I fully expect to see it explored with more than a passing note when he achieves or at least uses it for the first time.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Slight nitpick: The illusion was 9th level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15415463#post15415463), not epic. Still is worth a lot of XP, but not as much.
Also, I think that if the Order levels up, it will be more showing how far they've come from their early days, not making the party balanced level-wise (although it could function as this).

[Ridureyu]

Leveling up can serve a purpose of setting up how much closer the Order is to actually standing a chance against Team Evil, with some serious undertones of "Look at how far they've come!"

Oh, and "Belkar gets screwed out of a level/class abilities again." Because that's the running joke.

[jidasfire]

Yeah, I think back when Rich made the comment about how levels and powers mattered less than personal character growth, he meant in the sense that they were what he would focus on more because they made for a more interesting story, rather than the latter utterly supplanting the former. I suspect the idea is that levels and powers were inevitable as a result of the game's mechanics, and he was not interested in telling a story about a bunch of min-maxing and power-gaming, but instead about a bunch of screw-ups who become heroic by surpassing their own limits. They need levels too, obviously. All the emotional maturity in the world and nothing else will still get them squashed by Xykon if it came to that.

[Kish]

Board Idea Which I Don't Understand #26: The Order will defeat Xykon in a toe-to-toe slugfest after he's become a level-appropriate encounter for them.

[Shale]

While I don't think the final conflict with Team Evil will go like it did in the illusion, I do think it's at least somewhat important for the Order to grow in power to a point where they are no longer trivial opponents for Xykon and Redcloak. They're not going to whittle down Xykon's HP to 0 before finally destroying him with their feats and magic items, but they do have to be able to take a few Meteor Swarms while things shake out.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Comic 1,000 is nothing but the entire party getting a level-up "Ding!". It can come at any point in the story. It will be lampshaded. :smallbiggrin:

[Ridureyu]

The Order will only be able to beat him by using teamwork, everything they have learned from personal growth, and probably some fun stuff in the environment. Now, the FIRST time they won, it was because tossing him into the gate did a lot of damage. Nothing as simple as that can happen again. Roy's solo battle with Xykon also proved that the Order needs at least some level parity before they fight again - they cannot rely on an insta-kill trap within skeleton-tossing range. However, V's fight with Xykon also demonstrated the need for sound tactics over sheer, raw power. Notably, it also demonstrated Xykon's own character growth - in SoD, he was chided for being simple-minded, lacking strategy, and just blasting things without thinking. By the Darth V fight, he has clearly learned a few lessons.

[SavageWombat]

Board Idea Which I Don't Understand #26: The Order will defeat Xykon in a toe-to-toe slugfest after he's become a level-appropriate encounter for them.

I understand it - it's because most of us can't come up with an appropriate ending on our own. But you're right - Rich has planned something only one person on the forums will see coming.

And half the forum will call that person an idiot.

[Katuko]

You are thinking about Mass Hold Person, aren't you? Usually, Mass Hold Monster is aimed at more diverse types of monsters and Mass Hold Person has humanoids as its only possible targets.
No, I was thinking of the 9th level spell Mass Hold Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdMonsterMass.htm), and as mentioned I don't think it'll make an appearance. I was only talking about potential Lvl 9 choices in that post.


Board Idea Which I Don't Understand #26: The Order will defeat Xykon in a toe-to-toe slugfest after he's become a level-appropriate encounter for them.
Where the story actually goes doesn't really matter. The Order, in-story, are planning to do it like a proper combat encounter. We can clearly see this from the way Roy and Durkon plan strategy on the boat, from Roy trying to learn the anti-caster feat (and dreaming about succeeding in the illusion), and from at least some of the team members having a semi-decent plan for taking down a high-level caster ("Xykon is feeling chilly today").

So no matter how the story actually gets resolved, the Order will be going in expecting a direct fight with Xykon, Redcloak and whatever reinforcements they may have. We can therefore speculate about how they will prepare for such an encounter without necessarily having to believe it will come down to to one.

[Jay R]

Bandana, Blackwing, and Mister Scruffy, in increasing order of likelihood.

Blackwing has already claimed one.

[zimmerwald1915]

Slight nitpick: The illusion was 9th level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15415463#post15415463), not epic. Still is worth a lot of XP, but not as much.
Also, the CR for non-Epic traps caps at 10. I imagine the intent was that traps tend to drop off in terms of XP granted as characters level.

[Orm-Embar]

Could be a chance for Belkar to put a point into Wisdom. Wacky hijinks ensue. Although redemption's not for everyone, from the recent comics and his evolving relationships with the other OOTS members, and of course Mr. Scruffy and Bloodfeast, it seems like Belkar might be getting a shot at it.

[Shale]

Also, the CR for non-Epic traps caps at 10. I imagine the intent was that traps tend to drop off in terms of XP granted as characters level.

Also also, the trap as designed involves a few Draketooths lurking around who show up when you get phantasm'd to murder your face off. It was missing a few moving parts when the Order ran into it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also also, the trap as designed involves a few Draketooths lurking around who show up when you get phantasm'd to murder your face off. It was missing a few moving parts when the Order ran into it.
This is a true statement. It has no bearing on what the Order might have actually gained - mechanically-speaking - from the experience, and thus is irrelevant to the point of this thread, but there is nothing false about it.

[Shale]

XP is supposed to be for a challenge overcome, right? A broken trap is less challenging than one that's primed and ready to kill - in this case, it should have had a time limit (which the Order would almost certainly have failed). Partial credit at best, says DM Me.

[Nightsbridge]

XP is supposed to be for a challenge overcome, right? A broken trap is less challenging than one that's primed and ready to kill - in this case, it should have had a time limit (which the Order would almost certainly have failed). Partial credit at best, says DM Me.

At this point, it's as much a roleplay experience opportunity as a challenge one. Surely that averages out.

[Ridureyu]

Well, it depends. Do you count XP for challenges surmounted, or for challenges surmounted correctly? And by correctly, I mean "according to proper narrative convention." Do you only count defeated enemies when done within a tie limit? Do retreating enemies count for XP Does story XP exist?

I did once play beneath a DM who refused to count PC crits, because it was "unfair." You had to reroll that 20.

[zimmerwald1915]

XP is supposed to be for a challenge overcome, right? A broken trap is less challenging than one that's primed and ready to kill - in this case, it should have had a time limit (which the Order would almost certainly have failed). Partial credit at best, says DM Me.
The encounter would have been a CR 10 trap plus a number of creatures. The creatures would have boosted the EL of the encounter over 10, but they were not present, so the EL of the encounter was...10. So yes, the encounter as played out would have granted less XP than it would have granted normally, no jiggering with the trap's CR itself necessary.

In direct answer to the OP's question, assuming every member of the Order went into the pyramid with exactly 120,000 XP, the amount needed to reach level 16, Roy, Belkar, Elan, and Haley would have gained 13,587 XP from combat and trap encounters alone. Durkon would have gained 7,680, and Vaarsuvius would have gained 5,667. Roy, Belkar, Elan, and Haley would be close to leveling to 17; Vaarsuvius and Durkon would not. But none of them would have actually leveled past 16.

That is, of course, an oversimplification. Insofar as the characters have levels, the level spread as the party entered the pyramid probably looked something more like: Roy 14, Belkar 15, Durkon 14, Elan 15, Haley 15, Vaarsuvius 16. If that is the case, assuming they all went into the pyramid with just the amount of XP needed to reach their levels (91,000 for Roy and Durkon, 105,000 for Belkar, Elan, and Haley, and 120,000 for Vaarsuvius), they would have gained the following from combat and trap encounters alone:


Roy: 21,535
Belkar: 17,458
Durkon: 14,765
Elan: 18,208
Haley: 18,208
Vaarsuvius: 5,667


Just from combat and trap encounters alone, therefore, Roy should now be level 15 (he passed that threshold as of strip 909), Belkar, Elan, Haley, and Vaarsuvius should be level 16 (Belkar, Elan, and Haley passed that threshold as of strip 936), and Durkon should be level 14 (ECL 22). Of course, they all probably entered the pyramid with more XP than I granted them. And they probably got a bunch of ad-hoc XP from all the character stuff they went through plus finding the Gate.

[Seerow]

Board Idea Which I Don't Understand #26: The Order will defeat Xykon in a toe-to-toe slugfest after he's become a level-appropriate encounter for them.

I don't think anyone really expects them to reach the same level as Xykon to the point where it's a level appropriate encounter.

However, the fight in Azure city really showed that it is necessary for them to close the gap before being able to face off against him. If I remember right, the current estimates put him somewhere around level 25. When they faced him in the first dungeon, winning was a fluke, achieved mostly by Xykon toying with them, deliberately not trying to kill them, and trying to trick them into activating the gate for him.

Basically the Order needs to catch up enough to be a relevant threat to Xykon. I agree that it will almost certainly not be a fair fight, and there will be other factors at play. But if you think that some sort of straight up fight won't be involved... well you have a very different view of this strip than I do. While there's lots of characterization, combat is the main conflict resolution used in this story, and I doubt we're going to close out the finale with some trick bypassing the need for a straight up fight with an angry lich.




What really surprises me is the number of people who think Rich is opposed to letting the characters get access to 9th level spells. Yes, 9th level spells have game breaking power. But so do 8th level spells. And 7th. All the way down. Rich is pretty good at having his characters avoid the worst of those, or using them where they're dramatically appropriate. 9th level spells are no different.

[ti'esar]

The encounter would have been a CR 10 trap plus a number of creatures. The creatures would have boosted the EL of the encounter over 10, but they were not present, so the EL of the encounter was...10. So yes, the encounter as played out would have granted less XP than it would have granted normally, no jiggering with the trap's CR itself necessary.

In direct answer to the OP's question, assuming every member of the Order went into the pyramid with exactly 120,000 XP, the amount needed to reach level 16, Belkar, Elan, Haley, and Roy would have gained 13,587 XP from combat and trap encounters alone. Durkon would have gained 7,680, and Vaarsuvius would have gained 5,667. Belkar, Elan, Haley, and Roy would be close to leveling to 17; Vaarsuvius and Durkon would not. But none of them would have actually leveled past 16.

That is, of course, an oversimplification. Insofar as the characters have levels, the level spread as the party entered the pyramid probably looked something more like: Belkar 15, Durkon 14, Elan 15, Haley 15, Roy 14, Vaarsuvius 16. If that is the case, assuming they all went into the pyramid with just the amount of XP needed to reach their levels (91,000 for Durkon and Roy, 105,000 for Belkar, Elan, and Haley, and 120,000 for Vaarsuvius), they would have gained the following from combat and trap encounters alone:


Belkar: 17,458
Roy: 21,535
Durkon: 14,765
Haley: 18,208
Elan: 18,208
Vaarsuvius: 5,667


Just from combat and trap encounters alone, therefore, Roy should now be level 15 (he passed that threshold as of strip 909), Belkar, Elan, Haley, and Vaarsuvius should be level 16 (Belkar, Elan, and Haley passed that threshold as of strip 936), and Durkon should be level 14 (ECL 22). Of course, they all probably entered the pyramid with more XP than I granted them. And they probably got a bunch of ad-hoc XP from all the character stuff they went through plus finding the Gate.

And that's probably with an underestimation of Miron and Laurin's levels.

[zimmerwald1915]

And that's probably with an underestimation of Miron and Laurin's levels.
That is correct. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16752837&postcount=1353)

[kamuishirou]

It's much easier to manage a 17th-level wizard than a 17th-level cleric, though. V could finally be able to cast 9th-level spells only to discover that there's no teacher or spellbook around from which to learn the heavy hitters like Wish. It's not like Durkon, who just needs to ask for Miracle or True Resurrection once he hits an appropriate level.

Well, it looks like V has Wish and Time Stop already thanks to the booster pack buy http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html.:) Though as discussed, I don't think she is getting as much XP as everyone else.

[thereaper]

V didn't actually have those spells. At that point, she was just naming the most powerful spells she knew out of frustration.

[marq]

At this point, it's as much a roleplay experience opportunity as a challenge one. Surely that averages out.

It does average out. And don't call me "Shirley."

I have always wanted to say that.

[Socksy]

V didn't actually have those spells. At that point, she was just naming the most powerful spells she knew out of frustration.

Either that or she does have them, just completely forgot where she put them... And hey, she's lucky when she can find her spellbook in the morning:smallamused:

[Jay R]

I don't think anyone really expects them to reach the same level as Xykon to the point where it's a level appropriate encounter.

Of course not. That's how a game works, not a story.

The musketeers never have as much power as Richelieu.

Frodo never levels up to as much power as Sauron.

Indiana Jones is never as powerful as the Nazi army.

The essence of a great story is struggling against near-impossible odds.

When Roy finally gets there, he won't be Xykon's equal, but he'll still be able to throw the Ring undead-killing sword into the Cracks of Doom lich.

[He did this once before, but this time, if the ritual is finished, Redcloak will to destroy Xykon's phylactery.]

[Copperdragon]

Never assumes the Order will simply slash it out vs. Xykon and Redcloak based on level. But the playing field is adjusted to the point where they have a "reasonable chance" to win, which is all they need.

Xykon has been shown to be so ridiculously powerful that it would be ludicrous to assign a specific level to him. He is not unbeatable, but he is very much near that. Levels are not going to do the trick against him and everyone who faced him but Soon has learned that the very, very hard way (and with a slighly smarter Xykon, even Soon would have been a whiff of ectoplasma).

[Doug Lampert]

Slight nitpick: The illusion was 9th level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15415463#post15415463), not epic. Still is worth a lot of XP, but not as much.

Spell traps have a CR equal to spell level.

That was a CR 9 encounter and worth almost nothing to the order.

[RMS Oceanic]

Spell traps have a CR equal to spell level.

That was a CR 9 encounter and worth almost nothing to the order.

Actually, it's CR 10:


For a spell trap or magic device trap, the base CR is 1. The highest-level spell used modifies the CR (see Table: CR Modifiers for Magic Traps).

Highest-level spell: + Spell level OR +1 per 7 points
of average damage per round

But yeah, compared to Tarquin & Co they don't get much XP.

[Seerow]

Actually, it's CR 10:



But yeah, compared to Tarquin & Co they don't get much XP.

Huh, those trap CRs are really weird.

This means you get a level 1 burning hands trap that will do next to nothing to even a 1st level group. It's CR2 and gets you great experience. Take the same thing and try to give a CR10 trap of a 9th level spell against an 8th level group, and watch as half the party is dead before they know what hit them.

[Psyren]

Our writer has a habit of only visiting a theme once. So since we have had strips on leveling up and on loot division, these are unlikely to be strips again. We may get passing notes that the party is higher level or has new toys, but we won't get extensive discussion.
Note too that leveling and loot discussion are rather limiting for the author. He has to keep in mind that the party is now X+1 level and/or it has this or that goodie. All sorts of plot ideas are off the table if we have these details set in stone. Far better [at least if the writer is feeling lazy] that this be kept vague.

The level can have plot implications though. Elan's healing/neutralize poison for instance, or Redcloak's new spells, were both called out because these capabilities were relevant to the plot - and we would have noticed them being used and sussed out the new level anyway. Roy in particular needed a new level to learn Eugene's technique - though he used it in the illusion, we're not certain that he leveled between being raised and then, so it might have been a quality of the shared dream. With all these fights though we can be pretty sure he did now if he didn't before.

[Ridureyu]

We've had strips on leveling on more than one occasion.

[Kish]

We've had strips on leveling on more than one occasion.
I can't think of one where it wasn't part of a joke, though.

[hamishspence]

I think this was one of the most recent:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html

[Shale]

We also see Crystal getting an antagonist level-up in a flashback after Haley & co. enter Greysky.

[Snails]

Destroying the Gate itself would be worth XP, because they could have easily failed to locate it before Nale returned or Xykon arrived.

The Illusion Trap would be worth a lot when manned by Draketooth assassins, but in its present form it is an RPing opportunity, which would be worth something.

[Ridureyu]

I can't think of one where it wasn't part of a joke, though.

And since nearly every comic in this series has a joke in it, my point still stands :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

Roy in particular needed a new level to learn Eugene's technique - though he used it in the illusion, we're not certain that he leveled between being raised and then, so it might have been a quality of the shared dream. With all these fights though we can be pretty sure he did now if he didn't before.
1. Why would he dream himself a higher level than he actually was for purposes of the dream-Xykon fight? It would have a chance to ruin the verisimilitude of the illusion.

2. He later uses the same feat against Miron.

[Ridureyu]

Yes, he certainly danked Miron's shew.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Roy in particular needed a new level to learn Eugene's technique

Nit pick alert--it is Horace Greenhilt's technique, not Eugene's.

[Ramien]

I can't think of one where it wasn't part of a joke, though.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html Technically, the levelling up happened 'yesterday' but it was definitely more than just a joke.

[hamishspence]

The line "nothing like the feel of a new spell level" hints that Redcloak went up a level (to level 17) very recently:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html

[Copperdragon]

The line "nothing like the feel of a new spell level" hints that Redcloak went up a level (to level 17) very recently:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html

And that was not played as joke. It informs us in a clear way that Redcloak is more powerful and even hit the (according to CORE) spell-capstone of this class. It tells us the story has escalated a bit and that the Villains also do progress. In a way this is similar to the information we got about all the fancy new objects Xykon made himself. He cannot level anymore or has so many of them that one more does not matter, but we are informed the main Villain still gets more and more powerful.

[David Argall]

And that was not played as joke. It informs us in a clear way that Redcloak is more powerful and even hit the (according to CORE) spell-capstone of this class. It tells us the story has escalated a bit and that the Villains also do progress. In a way this is similar to the information we got about all the fancy new objects Xykon made himself. He cannot level anymore or has so many of them that one more does not matter, but we are informed the main Villain still gets more and more powerful.
Which still leaves us with the same point. There is unlikely to be a strip on the party leveling up or getting loot at the start of book 6. Somewhere within it, we may well get a mention of such, but nothing close to 124-130, nor even a full page. Instead, we will see mentions, or panels designed to augment or explain the plot. Even our Elan case was a mere 3 panels and that was to deal with 2 plot points

[SavageWombat]

I can see a brief reference to point out how Durkon won't make level for a good long while.

[Jay R]

I can't think of one where it wasn't part of a joke, though.

That doesn't mean it isn't important; it merely means that it's easy to make jokes about the leveling process.

If a joke opportunity occurs, Rich will certainly use it.

[Hague]

Yeah, Trap CRs are messed up. Should be based on the Caster level of the trap instead. At least that would make more sense.

Edit: Maybe spell-level related to caster level required to cast the spell, like most magic items. So a fireball needs CL 5 so you get CR 5 instead of 3. I believe most magic items work this way anyhow.