Dragons Wearing Dragonhide

[zindane2000]

...or, "How I decided to nix natural armor"

So, RAW, A dragon can collect a bunch of dead dragon corpses, take some armor proficiencies, and be wearing dragonhide fullplate. This struck me as rather silly during a discussion with one of my player's projected character build, and I decided to bring it to you guys.

What breaks if I stop Natural Armor from stacking with Armor?

[Gemini476]

A human can skin a bunch of things, harden that skin into leather, and wear that skin above their skin.


As for what breaks, the obvious thing is that a lot of creatures become even worse choices, AC becomes even more useless, and multiple items and spells become worthless.

Basically, you kick the melee classes while they're down. And the Druid, but the Druid isn't too worried.

[Greenish]

You'll make AC even harder to boost (and thus even more irrelevant at higher levels), and Amulets of Natural Armour become useless.

Also various PC races that offer NA become slightly weaker, but that's not a big deal (in most cases). Just make dromites +0 LA.


I don't know why'd you want to do that, though.


[Edit]: And a dragon wanting to wear armour should look into Wyrm of War Sovereign Archetype from Dragons of Eberron.

[Kudaku]

A colossal red dragon wearing the multihued hides of his vanquished foes crafted into armor... I kind of think that sounds awesome actually :smallsmile:

[Killer Angel]

What breaks if I stop Natural Armor from stacking with Armor?

Why would you do such a thing? it makes no sense. :smallconfused:

I am tough, I'm a troll with my hard skin.
Now, I wear an armor. Why should I remain the same?

[zindane2000]

the obvious thing is that a lot of creatures become even worse choices
Can you explain this further? I'm not sure what you mean.


AC becomes even more useless


Basically, you kick the melee classes while they're down. And the Druid, but the Druid isn't too worried.

Let's put this into the context of an E6 game, then. What's your gut feeling then?

Amulets of Natural Armour become useless.
This would be true, unless I happened to have races running around who have natural armor that advances already. Amulets of natural armor may prove quite useful for them.


Why would you do such a thing? it makes no sense.

I am tough, I'm a troll with my hard skin.
Now, I wear an armor. Why should I remain the same?

For the same reason that multiple deflection bonuses don't stack. By any realistic interpretation, they should, but this is a game where wearing multiple suits of armor doesn't increase the defense provided, only the strongest takes precedence. In the same vein, armor and natural armor make a very similar thematic statement.

So similar, in fact, that a being can tide the hide from it's fellows and find it beneficial to wear it.

But only once, because the next set worn does not in any way increase the being's AC again.

[Alefiend]

Natural armor is the toughness of your body. Armor is the toughness of something that is outside your body and serves as a barrier, covering any sensitive bits.

The German hero Siegfried had serious natural armor from being soaked in the blood of the dragon Fafnir. He still wore armor, and was only killed when he was naked and got stabbed in a place where his natural armor was more or less nonexistent.

In short, there's historical fantasy precedent for natural armor stacking with armor. Your only other reasonable option is to turn NA into DR.

[SowZ]

Can you explain this further? I'm not sure what you mean.





Let's put this into the context of an E6 game, then. What's your gut feeling then?

This would be true, unless I happened to have races running around who have natural armor that advances already. Amulets of natural armor may prove quite useful for them.



For the same reason that multiple deflection bonuses don't stack. By any realistic interpretation, they should, but this is a game where wearing multiple suits of armor doesn't increase the defense provided, only the strongest takes precedence. In the same vein, armor and natural armor make a very similar thematic statement.

So similar, in fact, that a being can tide the hide from it's fellows and find it beneficial to wear it.

But only once, because the next set worn does not in any way increase the being's AC again.

It's trying to fix something that isn't a problem, balance wise or logically. If I'm an alligator and I wear hardened alligator skins, my hide is over twice as tough now. A dragon wearing dragonhide would be effective. Balancewise, races with RHD are even more unplayable than ever and martial classes get shafted.

The better question is what do you gain? It's not a like bonus situation. That your skin is naturally resilient is different from armor.


...or, "How I decided to nix natural armor"

So, RAW, A dragon can collect a bunch of dead dragon corpses, take some armor proficiencies, and be wearing dragonhide fullplate. This struck me as rather silly during a discussion with one of my player's projected character build, and I decided to bring it to you guys.

What breaks if I stop Natural Armor from stacking with Armor?

I don't see what's silly. Honestly, if I was gross enough, I could make human leather and wear it and I would be tougher to wound. Not much, but only because human skin offers little in the way of protection in the first place. Make hide armor some time. You'll realize that the treated version of skin is tougher than the natural stuff.

[Red Fel]

So, just to be clear, the entire concept of this thread originated from the idea of a draconic Buffalo Bill (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102926/)?

I'm going with the naysayers on this one. Let's take it to the logical extreme. If your skin is described as "hard as stone," you have natural armor. It is tough. If you put metal (or stone!) armor on top of that, it should theoretically be tougher. Saying that an additional coat of armor won't stack with the natural armor underneath is irrational. Admittedly, RAW has an odd relationship with reason, but still, this mechanic adds nothing and subtracts something. There is no justifiable reason to do this.

I take it back. There is one reason, but it isn't terribly justifiable - melee can't have nice things. Who is hurt most by a rule that natural armor won't stack with other forms of armor? Not casters. Melees.

Not cool, man. Not cool.

[Draken]

So.

Who's going to bite the bullet and link the Icelandic necropants?

[Heliomance]

The reason that two sets of armour don't stack is not because two sets of armour wouldn't make you tougher to hurt, it's because it's the easiest way to stop people from trying to wear fullplate over fullplate (over fullplate over...) which is patently ridiculous.

[Red Fel]

The reason that two sets of armour don't stack is not because two sets of armour wouldn't make you tougher to hurt, it's because it's the easiest way to stop people from trying to wear fullplate over fullplate (over fullplate over...) which is patently ridiculous.

Wearing added armor over added armor (e.g. full plate over full plate) would be ridiculous, absolutely true.

And yet, more complex armors are made by piling one type of armor onto another. For example, banded mail is formed, in D&D, by placing metal plates or sheets over a leather substrate. Platemail, even full plate, isn't just a solid sheet of metal molded into armor - it's multiple plates, separate layers of metal, stacked and layered together, again often over a leather layer for cushioning. Even dragonscale wouldn't be made solely from a bunch of scales - there would have to be some sort of substrate binding them together. In fact, in armor, stacking metal over leather is a fairly common practice, both for comfort and for protection.

Certainly, if you wore half plate over separate leather armor, you'd think the latter would add even a little cushioning to the former's AC bonus. Even though they don't work that way, it's reasonable to assume that part of the half plate's AC bonus comes from the substrate of leather or fabric. So, even though you can't tack one suit of armor over another suit of armor, you technically already sort of do that.

Yet none of this is relevant to the fact that you can wear armor over your skin, which according to D&D may provide protection of its own.

[Killer Angel]

For the same reason that multiple deflection bonuses don't stack. By any realistic interpretation, they should, but this is a game where wearing multiple suits of armor doesn't increase the defense provided, only the strongest takes precedence. In the same vein, armor and natural armor make a very similar thematic statement.

The reasons why same bonuses don't stack are different.
In the same vein, if Natural Armor don't stack with Armor, then also deflection shouldn't, neither sacred, profane, shield bonuses, and so on.
Armor it's one thing, a hard skin is another, and they work together perfectly. I really don't see what's so strange in it.

[TuggyNE]

And yet, more complex armors are made by piling one type of armor onto another. For example, banded mail is formed, in D&D, by placing metal plates or sheets over a leather substrate. Platemail, even full plate, isn't just a solid sheet of metal molded into armor - it's multiple plates, separate layers of metal, stacked and layered together, again often over a leather layer for cushioning. Even dragonscale wouldn't be made solely from a bunch of scales - there would have to be some sort of substrate binding them together. In fact, in armor, stacking metal over leather is a fairly common practice, both for comfort and for protection.

In other words, the reason armor bonuses don't stack is because it would be endlessly tedious to make them stack in a way that allows for diminishing returns and synergies per real life. It's a quick and dirty fix.

There is therefore no reason to apply the principle derived from a quick patch job to an area of the system that is perfectly functional and relatively simple.

[Ravens_cry]

So.

Who's going to bite the bullet and link the Icelandic necropants?
Or scientific autopsy reports bound in leather . . . made from the skin of the the one who was autopsied.

[Phelix-Mu]

No AC at all! All attacks hit. Convert "protection" into a DR system that keeps tough things alive longer/allows the hard-to-hit to evade the real punishment. Easier to match to the damage potential of a party in a given campaign, and an infinitely easier tool for a DM to manage than statting out monsters that will survive at least the first salvo from the party via a panoply of miss chances/nat AC buffs/rings of "that misses"/dodgey dodging.

Just a thought, but if you are retooling the AC system, might as well take the bull by the horns.:smallwink:

[Jeff the Green]

It's not true that this will hurt melee. The swiftblade with a bunch of miss chances and scintillating scales to turn his NA into deflection is quite fine with this development.


Or scientific autopsy reports bound in leather . . . made from the skin of the the one who was autopsied.

Links! I demand links!

Also I kind of want to own this.

[Ravens_cry]

Links! I demand links!

Also I kind of want to own this.
And lo, links (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropodermic_bibliopegy)are given (Anthropodermic bibliopegy).

[malonkey1]

No AC at all! All attacks hit. Convert "protection" into a DR system that keeps tough things alive longer/allows the hard-to-hit to evade the real punishment. Easier to match to the damage potential of a party in a given campaign, and an infinitely easier tool for a DM to manage than statting out monsters that will survive at least the first salvo from the party via a panoply of miss chances/nat AC buffs/rings of "that misses"/dodgey dodging.

Just a thought, but if you are retooling the AC system, might as well take the bull by the horns.:smallwink:

You mean, like this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm), only more extreme?

[Rubik]

I wonder what would happen if, say, a spell-to-power erudite tried to cast a Linked Power'd True Resurrection on the dragonhide armor...

[Gemini476]

No AC at all! All attacks hit. Convert "protection" into a DR system that keeps tough things alive longer/allows the hard-to-hit to evade the real punishment. Easier to match to the damage potential of a party in a given campaign, and an infinitely easier tool for a DM to manage than statting out monsters that will survive at least the first salvo from the party via a panoply of miss chances/nat AC buffs/rings of "that misses"/dodgey dodging.

Just a thought, but if you are retooling the AC system, might as well take the bull by the horns.:smallwink:

You need to retool it a bit so that attacks with little damage still do something, though, instead of a warrior in full plate being literally invulnerable.
Maybe attacks that are completely blocked by DR do half non-lethal damage instead?

I think that UA had some alternative HP system somewhere...

[malonkey1]

You need to retool it a bit so that attacks with little damage still do something, though, instead of a warrior in full plate being literally invulnerable.
Maybe attacks that are completely blocked by DR do half non-lethal damage instead?

I think that UA had some alternative HP system somewhere...

The Archive Fairy waves her wand, aaaaaand... POOF! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm)

[Phelix-Mu]

You need to retool it a bit so that attacks with little damage still do something, though, instead of a warrior in full plate being literally invulnerable.
Maybe attacks that are completely blocked by DR do half non-lethal damage instead?

I think that UA had some alternative HP system somewhere...

Is the Plink Plink Effect necessary to the game, though? I know it's been a thing, definitely in 3e, but shouldn't superior equipment/hide/evasion render one immune to lesser weapons? The problem with the current system is that there is no "superior," as both to hit and AC can be scaled up stupidly high, but to hit scales better and faster. This leads to Can't Be Hit builds usually not using AC at all, which seems quite silly to me.

Also, touch AC has always bothered me, as it essentially makes killing things with magic much more trivial than with weapons, in addition to all the other ways of killing/doing anything that magic already has. A system like this would probably apply DR to all sources of hp damage, including spells.

EDIT: And go easy on me here, I literally took 30 seconds and made up this idea from scratch (though it seems I may have once heard about the alternate armour as DR thing from UA or wherever). It's the opposite of well thought out, but I think some tweaking might make it feasible (if a bit arduous to implement).

[Gemini476]

Is the Plink Plink Effect necessary to the game, though? I know it's been a thing, definitely in 3e, but shouldn't superior equipment/hide/evasion render one immune to lesser weapons? The problem with the current system is that there is no "superior," as both to hit and AC can be scaled up stupidly high, but to hit scales better and faster. This leads to Can't Be Hit builds usually not using AC at all, which seems quite silly to me.

Also, touch AC has always bothered me, as it essentially makes killing things with magic much more trivial than with weapons, in addition to all the other ways of killing/doing anything that magic already has. A system like this would probably apply DR to all sources of hp damage, including spells.

EDIT: And go easy on me here, I literally took 30 seconds and made up this idea from scratch (though it seems I may have once heard about the alternate armour as DR thing from UA or wherever). It's the opposite of well thought out, but I think some tweaking might make it feasible (if a bit arduous to implement).

Yeah, I get that. It's just that having DR 5/magic is enough for you to be able to be immune to all weapon damage beneath 1d6, and something like DR 10/magic makes you immune to all damage beneath 1d10. (Or 1d8+2, 1d6+4, etc.)

If you make DR stop actual wounds but let through something like non-lethal damage (causing exhaustion or whatever), then you can get that thing where commoners manage to knock down a knight in full armor using clubs.

But yeah, I dunno. I suppose that if you really want to get rid of the "Plink plink" effect you need to do something like Next did and normalize values, so you don't have some people with -5 to-hit and some with +50 when you're using a d20. I think Next has a variance of -5 for level 1 with 1 in a stat to +12 for a level 20 PC with 20 in a stat and proficiency in the weapon? Also, AC is between 10 and 20 IIRC, and saves are similar to to-hit.
I like some things Next did, at least. There are some good ideas there. Not all of them, like their seeming dedication to making mundanes single-note, but some of them.

I'd also borrow a thing from 4e and make all saves a static value of 10+save, with the one causing the save rolling the dice. It standardizes it a bit more, I feel, if both mundanes swinging swords and wizards casting spells need to roll dice to do their stuff successfully.

[vhfforever]

...or, "How I decided to nix natural armor"

So, RAW, A dragon can collect a bunch of dead dragon corpses, take some armor proficiencies, and be wearing dragonhide fullplate. This struck me as rather silly during a discussion with one of my player's projected character build, and I decided to bring it to you guys.

For extra fun...have one of the Dragons non-fallen enemies Wish the armor back to life, as per resurrection; and then leave...with all the enmity a slain dragon turned set of armor can muster left behind.

[vhfforever]

I wonder what would happen if, say, a spell-to-power erudite tried to cast a Linked Power'd True Resurrection on the dragonhide armor...

IMO, you'd have to pick a section of the armor, and then...ding...instant dragon.

[Drachasor]

In other words, the reason armor bonuses don't stack is because it would be endlessly tedious to make them stack in a way that allows for diminishing returns and synergies per real life. It's a quick and dirty fix.

There is therefore no reason to apply the principle derived from a quick patch job to an area of the system that is perfectly functional and relatively simple.

As I understand it, diminishing returns in real life is more about cost and weight than anything else. A hull that's 5' thick steel is a heck of a heck of a heck of a lot better than 5" thick steel walls. But the weight and cost are much, much greater. Well, there's also the fact our destructive capability means the benefit isn't so big.

With soldiers, it's mostly going to be about weight and mobility. Sure you could triple the thickness of body armor or more, but it is going to impede mobility and the weight will mean they can't operate as long as required.

However, in a D&D setting, you can have inhuman strength, materials that are very light, and magic enhancing this even more. So you really should be seeing Plate*3 Mail and so forth. Consider that someone with 30 strength could easily have armor alone weighing 200lbs and 300lbs would not be out of the question (533lbs is a light load). Yes, moving would be harder, but I think the massive AC bonus would probably be worth it.

Of course, touch AC is wonky here. Hard to see how a Scorching Ray gets through 3 inches of steel/adamantine/mithril armor.

Though honestly D&D making a distinction between natural armor and armor has always been weird. Armor is essentially simulating natural armor* (that's the whole point). It's especially odd with constructs who can be made of metal and then wear more metal. Yet a human that wears metal and layers on more metal gets no benefit.

*Though with metal armor we advanced to the point where the simulated natural armor was better than the real thing.


You need to retool it a bit so that attacks with little damage still do something, though, instead of a warrior in full plate being literally invulnerable.
Maybe attacks that are completely blocked by DR do half non-lethal damage instead?

I think that UA had some alternative HP system somewhere...

I'm actually working on a system that uses what is basically Temporary HP that refreshes every round instead of defense. No attack roll, so even a wiff lowers the target's ability to defend himself from further attacks that round.

[Evandar]

I like the idea of Temporary HP in place of AC. It seems to make a lot of intuitive sense (having a million peasants that would miss under normal rules would instead see you totally peppered, and it allows weak characters to help a high level character beyond flanking/aid another).

More importantly, as a DM, I've noticed nothing is more boring to my players than a round where their attacks miss. It's particularly problematic when they're at low levels and missing is common.