Consequences of this illusion

[G.Cube]

In a dungeon crawl I am currently running, I am thinking of having an illusion triggered by something (specifics haven't been worked out yet) where the room fills with blood and they believe they are going to drown in it.

Being a new DM, I've never tried an illusion before, so I have a couple questions.

What happens If they fail their save and believe it's real, and fail to accomplish the goal to prevent the room from filling up to the ceiling?

What happens if some of the group makes their save and the others don't? Can the others calm those who fail down? How would that work out? Would the ones who fail be so panic stricken that they wouldn't even notice the other members not believing?

[Diarmuid]

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief ): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

[G.Cube]

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief ): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

Thanks! This helps with the latter, but not the former. What happens if everyone/someone fails every save, and the blood fills the room to the point of drowning depth?

[Red Fel]

Under the "figment" section of Illusions, it is explicitly stated that they cannot deal damage. I would argue that this illusory blood-flood is a figment. Accordingly, it cannot deal the players damage - but they can asphyxiate if they hold their breath.

That said, as soon as they are immersed in it and notice that it is not wet, they should be treated as having "proof that isn't real," which is sufficient to allow disbelief without a saving throw.

Really, I don't see this illusion as doing much except momentarily freaking them out.

If you want to do something to get your players, consider filling the room with an illusion of colored gas. They are less likely to consider the [I]feel of a gas, as opposed to a liquid (even though you can often feel a gas, depending on various factors), and so might not have proof of non-reality. At that point, let them try to hold their breath - those who breathe will notice that they breathe normally, which won't convince them the gas isn't there, but may let them believe it's harmless; those who insist on trying to make every saving throw to hold their breath will ultimately, and amusingly, pass out.

[Asrrin]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#illusion


Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

Because you want them to continue to believe the room is filled with liquid you probably want to use a glamer instead of a figment, because the figment will be unable to support their weight (to make them "float") and does not include tactile sensations like a glamer does.

Mirage Arcana (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirageArcana.htm) should let you do what you want to do.

Because it's a glamer, it never does any real damage to them (i.e. from "drowning") but they can certainly continue to make rolls as if they were drowning until they realize it's an illusion. It's unclear what happens when they start actually drowning when the fail the throws. Do their bodies involuntarily suck in real air? Does the brain cause them to fall into an unconscious "death" until the spell ends?

[Asrrin]

Under the "figment" section of Illusions, it is explicitly stated that they cannot deal damage. I would argue that this illusory blood-flood is a figment. Accordingly, it cannot deal the players damage - but they can asphyxiate if they hold their breath.

That said, as soon as they are immersed in it and notice that it is not wet, they should be treated as having "proof that isn't real," which is sufficient to allow disbelief without a saving throw.

Really, I don't see this illusion as doing much except momentarily freaking them out.

If you want to do something to get your players, consider filling the room with an illusion of colored gas. They are less likely to consider the [I]feel of a gas, as opposed to a liquid (even though you can often feel a gas, depending on various factors), and so might not have proof of non-reality. At that point, let them try to hold their breath - those who breathe will notice that they breathe normally, which won't convince them the gas isn't there, but may let them believe it's harmless; those who insist on trying to make every saving throw to hold their breath will ultimately, and amusingly, pass out.

If you cast a glamer instead of a figment you get the tactile sensation so that you would continue to believe while interacting the the liquid. but just as a figment, it would deal no damage.

[Fouredged Sword]

If someone thinks they are drowning and holds their breath, they would eventually fail, and then be fine.

"A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The save must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success."

Interestingly the characters who DON'T try to hold their breath will be fine.

[Dr. Cliché]

Could you do something like this with a Shadow spell?

"It's ok - this blood is only 20% real. Wait...?"

:smallwink:

[Drachasor]

Figments can produce tactile sensation, so it could feel wet even if they weren't wet. Also, blood is thicker than water and many people will be wearing quite a bit of gear, so floating would not be expected.

I'd say depending on how you ran it, the worst case is that this sort of thing would knock out people who "drowned". But that's probably better represented by a Pattern or Phantasm.

[Ravens_cry]

Figments can produce tactile sensation, so it could feel wet even if they weren't wet. Also, blood is thicker than water and many people will be wearing quite a bit of gear, so floating would not be expected.

Um, isn't it the other way around, a denser fluid being more likely to be floated in? Besides, it would still resist movements even if they couldn't float in it.

[Drachasor]

Um, isn't it the other way around, a denser fluid being more likely to be floated in? Besides, it would still resist movements even if they couldn't float in it.

You're right. I have a headache and wasn't thinking clearly.

Anyhow, it's a good way to give a bonus to the save if someone notices.

Since a tactile sensation can be produced, I don't see why it couldn't give resistance of some sort. That said, that definitely counts as interaction of course.

[Ravens_cry]

You're right. I have a headache and wasn't thinking clearly.

Anyhow, it's a good way to give a bonus to the save if someone notices.

Since a tactile sensation can be produced, I don't see why it couldn't give resistance of some sort. That said, that definitely counts as interaction of course.
So it might *feel* thicker, like it should slow them down, but somehow they can move full speed. "Can" being the operative word.

[Fouredged Sword]

No, they all start making swim checks and the DM keeps telling them they fail regardless of the rolls they make.

Blood is also opaque, so they can't see. They won't know if they are floating or not.

It also lets people who are aware of the illusion walk into the room as start sneak attacking people.

[Heliomance]

No, to be evil,what you want to do is have an illusion of normal air; but pump all the air out.

[Rogue Shadows]

Blood is also opaque, so they can't see. They won't know if they are floating or not.

Well, presumably, if their feet are still touching the floor, they'll know.

[Gamereaper]

Hey, I actually have an awesome idea.

You can still use the blood, even if everyone fails.

When they hold their breaths, if they pass out, they'll simply wake up after a minute or so.

The penalty could be that they're shaken under certain circumstances for an extended period or rest of the dungeon.

YOU CAN'T KILL YOURSELF BY HOLDING YOUR BREATH. :D

[Ravens_cry]

Well, presumably, if their feet are still touching the floor, they'll know.
Not to mention things like limbs and and hair being more buoyant.

[G.Cube]

Couldn't them believing they are swimming/floating be part of the illusion*?

*Illusion by the RL definition, not D&D rules definition.

[Ravens_cry]

Couldn't them believing they are swimming/floating be part of the illusion*?

*Illusion by the RL definition, not D&D rules definition.

If a DM started to pull the 'Well, this is SPECIAL illusion that does things that illusions don't do' card, I'd be a little peeved unless there was further justification.

[Wrathof42]

Frankly the effect your going for seems more along the lines of a spell effect similar to http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/illusory-pit--3886/ where it's creating an actual effect and a glamour. Something along the lines of a spell from the Image line of spells isn't going to cut it without judicious amounts of fiat. I'd highly recommend reading the "Rules of the Game: All about Illusions" articles to get a better grasp of how the finicky school of magic that is illusions work.

[Red Fel]

Couldn't them believing they are swimming/floating be part of the illusion*?

*Illusion by the RL definition, not D&D rules definition.

At this point, we've moved from "illusion," which in D&D is a thing that's "there but not there" to a person or group of people, and into "hallucination," which is like, whoa, totally mindblowing, man, like if the air wasn't air, right, because it had turned... into wood, man!

[Ravens_cry]

At this point, we've moved from "illusion," which in D&D is a thing that's "there but not there" to a person or group of people, and into "hallucination," which is like, whoa, totally mindblowing, man, like if the air wasn't air, right, because it had turned... into wood, man!
Well, there is illusions pretty much like that, phantasms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#phantasm)are explicitly mind-affecting and could be described as 'hallucinations'.

[Red Fel]

Well, there is illusions pretty much like that, phantasms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#phantasm)are explicitly mind-affecting and could be described as 'hallucinations'.

True. But as I recall, phantasms are more exclusive to a person or group of people, while figments and glamers can be targeted on an area and affect those within.

[Ravens_cry]

True. But as I recall, phantasms are more exclusive to a person or group of people, while figments and glamers can be targeted on an area and affect those within.
Affects a group of people, affects an area is pretty po-TAY-toe, po-TAH-toe as far as actual play is concerned, as long as it affects everyone in the group, but, yes, phantasms are not visible to 'bystanders'.
I am with the camp of it not being an illusion. A slightly modified Red Tide spell (Stormwrack and Spell Compendium), with blood instead of sea water, would be suitable.
You can make your own menstruation jokes; they just aren't flowing for me.

[Grek]

By RAW, the time when the party is certain to disbelieve the illusion depends on which spell is used to produce it. For most illusions, this would be when they touch the blood and notice it isn't wet. For Mirage Arcana, it would be when they notice the illusory blood isn't staining anything red. With Greater Shadow Conjuration, they won't disbelieve it at all: 60% of that blood is really there for them to drown in.

[Slipperychicken]

Thanks! This helps with the latter, but not the former. What happens if everyone/someone fails every save, and the blood fills the room to the point of drowning depth?

They'd probably believe they were drowning (although they wouldn't take negative effects from this), until they made a save. They'd probably auto-succeed if they wind up inhaling the blood, though.

Since D&D isn't the Matrix, believing that you're drowning doesn't actually drown you.

[bekeleven]

I'd say these effects could be fluffed as a combination of a lower-level illusion spell (seeing the room filling) combined with the spell Sensory Deprivation (making them feel like they're floating and unable to see).