Reverse template?

[YPU]

Is it possible to reverse a template? Can I for instance take the winged template (from savage species), and mirror it. Remove flying speed, -4 dex -2wis And apply that to, for instance, a dragon? Would that lower the dragons challenge rating with the indicated challenge rating heightening mentioned in the template? I, of course, presume any feats mend to be used with flying speed are replaced with more appropriate feats.

It just appeared to me that subterranean dragons would be quite cool. Especially in a ebberon campaign it would make nice kyber dragons.

[InaVegt]

It would be really hard to factor in if you remove a creature's innate abilities, however I wouldn't mind statting some dragons out for you, but a standard dragon kind relies on it's ability to fly.

[Darkshade]

there are dragons that dont fly in the Faerun Monster Manual thing
three or four i think
deep dragon, fang dragon
their subterranean too

[InaVegt]

Yes, there are, but I personally am against throwing stuff from official CS A into official CS B without any explanation. It's usually better to homebrew stuff.

[Darkshade]

well you can completely homebrew a new dragon or two or you can take a look at the ones from the other book and modify them to fit into your homebrew world or even look to them for some ideas on what to give a dragon to make up for taking away flight

[YPU]

I just took a peek at what would happen to the griffon and the hippogriff if you apply this. The creatures that are left seem perfectly fine for the challenge rating the would have.
Other options possible… reversing multyheaded template on the hydra? Unmummyfien the mummy? Splitting the centaur to see what sort of humanoid the torso belongs to?

[magic8BALL]

Other options possible… reversing multyheaded template on the hydra? Unmummyfien the mummy? Splitting the centaur to see what sort of humanoid the torso belongs to?

...what...? A big lizard? A dead guy? An elf?

...why stop there? What not find out what the Lich was before it became a Lich, or discover the base creature used for a Fiendish Dire Rat...

My point is with some templates it is obvious what you started with, and the templates actually make them somthing completely new. (Mummy, Lich)

Other templates were created to make other versions of standard monsters. (Hydra, Centaur)

Still other templates change one monster slightly to make different type of the same monster. (Fiendish Dire Rat, Winged x)

Reverse applying the winged template makes sence: "A dragon without wings". Cool.

Revese applying a template on somthing that has that template is silly.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I like the idea - of course it won't work on all templates.

What about reversing the half-celestial / fiendish template and applying it to an outsider to make a toned down devil or archon..?

Sure, the idea of "Half-[whatever]" templates is supposed to be that you use the half-outsider template to beef up a non-outsider, but could we not create a fledgling archon, or a fiend-lite? This could be a good way to nerf some cool monsters while retaining many of their unique abilities.

[YPU]

Ball, those last few weren’t supposed to be serious, just spark the imagination. With the exception of the hydra, you could try to make a 2, 3 and 4 headed hydra, or ad even more heads.
Altair, I suppose by abstracting the fiendish or celestial template you would make a material plane native version of outsider? Sounds quite interesting.

[magic8BALL]

...yeah... don't try to have a hydra with less than 5 heads... It dosnt work, that party killed it before it got it's turn... (one hit die per head does that to you...)

Nah, I see a very good point. Reversing some templates (winged --> un-winged is a good one, I can'y think of too many others out there... ahh... nope) makes heaps of sence.

Here's somthing else... can you reverse engenere a template that makes animals Dire Animals (or is there already one out there, and I just dont have the book/website with it in..?), Cuz I have two words:

Dire Megaraptor

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I heard about someone reverse enjineering the gelatenous part off of the gelatenous cube. It's funny picturing just a big cube.:smalltongue:

[Darkshade]

what why revers the gelatinous part man, reverse the cube!!!!
imagine an immense gelatinous sphere rolling at you... quickly!

[magic8BALL]

ahh... the un-gelatenous cube... long fabled at the gaming table...

"the concrete block moves towards you, slowly"

"hurry up and pick the lock!!"

[Rei_Jin]

Personally, I'd like to see an OPPOSITE template.

For example, you have the Feral template (Savage Species). What if we made the Cultured Template?

Nice big boosts to mental stats, slight nerfing of physical stats. Keep the boost to speed, natural armor, and fast healing. All for 1 level adjustment.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Here's an attempt at taking the "Half-fiend" template off the Chain Devil.

LESSER CHAIN DEVIL

Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice:
8d8 (36 hp)
Initiative:
+4
Speed:
30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class:
17 (+7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple:
+8/+8
Attack:
Chain +8 melee (2d4/19–20)
Full Attack:
2 chains +8 melee (2d4/19–20)
Space/Reach:
5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with chains)
Special Attacks:
Dancing chains
Special Qualities:
Resistance to cold 10, regeneration 2
Saves:
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +6
Abilities:
Str 11, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills:
Climb +11, Craft (blacksmithing) +17, Escape Artist +11, Intimidate +10, Listen +13, Spot +13, Use Rope +2 (+4 with bindings)
Feats:
Alertness, Improved Critical (chain), Improved Initiative
Environment:
Prime Material Plane
Organization:
Solitary, gang (2–4), band (6–10), or mob (11–20)
Challenge Rating:
4
Treasure:
Standard
Alignment:
Usually lawful evil
Advancement:
9–16 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment:
+2


The AC and HP are lower, the DR and SR are gone, Immunity to Cold has nerfed to Resistance... I'm not sure the Level Adjustment is right.

Could be useful as a lower level monster variant.

[YPU]

...yeah... don't try to have a hydra with less than 5 heads... It dosnt work, that party killed it before it got it's turn... (one hit die per head does that to you...)

Nah, I see a very good point. Reversing some templates (winged --> un-winged is a good one, I can'y think of too many others out there... ahh... nope) makes heaps of sence.

Here's somthing else... can you reverse engenere a template that makes animals Dire Animals (or is there already one out there, and I just dont have the book/website with it in..?), Cuz I have two words:

Dire Megaraptor
Haven’t seen one yet, sure I could do it if I had the time… but I’m in the middle of a exam period so little chance of that happening soon. Although perhaps..
Good point on the hydra. I’m sure there are other templates that could be useful reversing, cant think of one just now.
EDIT: ok, im looking at dire badger boar and lion and their comon counterparts to if there is a prosedure for dire.

[YPU]

I found that the only consistency on those is a +4 cha bonus, the rest varies. Ill look up some more later and try to make an template of the average.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I wanna see someone reverse engineer a dragon in half. Take away a red-dragons half dragon template.

Although that may look a little like this (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/bcx/MonsterMash003.gif).

[YPU]

I actually was starting to type that idea when I saw I were posting it, I think I will do it.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I actually was starting to type that idea when I saw I were posting it, I think I will do it.
Huzzah! :smallsmile:

[YPU]

I tried but came up with some questions, its hit dice are lowered, clearly to 1d10 but what type of creature would it be? This only affects the type because the template says “do not recalculate attack bonus nor saves”
Oh, and krimm, your deviant rocks.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I tried but came up with some questions, its hit dice are lowered, clearly to 1d10 but what type of creature would it be? This only affects the type because the template says “do not recalculate attack bonus nor saves”
Oh, and krimm, your deviant rocks.

Hmm, I'd either keep it a dragon or make it a magical beast. The HD matches it nicely.

And thanks about the devart. :smallbiggrin: