Things You Didn't Understand

[Gift Jeraff]

Is there a plot point that never made any sense to you? A D&D mechanic that confused you? A pop culture reference that flew over your head? Wondering why the Oracle mentioned the Irish Republican Army or who cast the scrying spell in #698? That's what this thread is here for.

I'll start things off:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html

What was Thog doing in Page 2, Panel6? Looking for something to smash Roy with? Going to free Z? Walking away??

[Keltest]

Edit: its actually panel 7. panel 6 is Roy. And if I had to guess, going after Z is where id put my money.

Edit edit: nope, its 6. Apparently I forgot how to count today.

[Ridry]

I assume he's just getting up and looking around. They both fell quite a far distance through the floor and Roy rolled to recover before Thog. I think!

What confused me about this comic was the number of people that thought Thog was dead afterwards. Elan would tell you that if you don't see the Xs in the eyes it doesn't count :P

[cheesecake]

I assume he's just getting up and looking around. They both fell quite a far distance through the floor and Roy rolled to recover before Thog. I think!

What confused me about this comic was the number of people that thought Thog was dead afterwards. Elan would tell you that if you don't see the Xs in the eyes it doesn't count :P

Never count a villain out till you see the body, even then be skeptical!

[BrotherMirtillo]

Yeah, my guess is a combination of Thog bouncing away, Thog looking around, and Roy running to a specific location that happened to be not right in front of Thog.

As for things I don't understand (and that could get an answer), I've got a couple:

One, Grubwiggler has a deal with the Thieves' Guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html) where he finds it unacceptable that they (yes, he counts Haley as part of "they") would rob him, but then Haley says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0620.html) the Guild could be allowed not only to rob him but also to say that they're not protecting him ever. How is that a protection contract? I know there's no honor among thieves, but as a fan of Hank, of Sly Cooper, and of the "Discworld" books, I'd like to think there's at least an understanding.

And two, this soldier handled Hinjo's package personally (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0418.html), but we never got a chance to watch her go to work with him. What kind of goods do you think Hinjo was packing?

[JessmanCA]

Well some things we are not meant to understand yet, like "What is the Snarl?" "What is the MitD?"

If I have any other questions I make a thread about them or ask in the thread for the comic in question.

[Steward]

I'm not sure if you are kidding or not or if I'm reading your sentence ("see her go to work with him"), BrotherMirtillo, but that whole strip is just a series of double entendres ('junk', 'package', etc. are all American English slang terms for a man's private parts). Almost every sentence is intended to be a double entendre and apart from the ship I don't think any of it is meant to be something that exists/we should be worrying about beyond that strip.

[BaronOfHell]

s808, p2, pan6: Thog has just plane shifted back in from hammerspace.

Grubwiggler and his protection contract:
What's best for business is what it comes down to. They don't want to drop the protection of Grubwiggler, because I think it'd make it harder to sell protection.
But when forced between dropping protection (and pretending it never was there), or possible dissolving of the Thieves Guild, the first becomes the better alternative.
I don't think they care the least about their clientele.

[jamiah93]

I think Grubwriggler's "protection plan" extended to protecting his estate from non-Thieves Guild members, seeing as how they were surprised to learn that it was an (assumed) Thieves Guild member that did the stealing. Flash forward to Haley and Co. slicing through the Thieves Guild like a flaming longsword through butter elementals, and it seems that it would be in the Guilds best interest to end the violence as soon as possible. I assume that retroactively terminating Grubwiggler's protection so they could help her steal Roys body back was a necessary sacrifice to make their made-up story of Haley's whereabouts seem more legitimate. Grubwriggler got the short end of the( Order of the) stick.

[ti'esar]

I'm not sure if you are kidding or not or if I'm reading your sentence ("see her go to work with him"), BrotherMirtillo, but that whole strip is just a series of double entendres ('junk', 'package', etc. are all American English slang terms for a man's private parts). Almost every sentence is intended to be a double entendre and apart from the ship I don't think any of it is meant to be something that exists/we should be worrying about beyond that strip.

Well, Hinjo's junk was plot-relevant - in fact, Rich has said establishing its existence was pretty much the whole point of that strip.

[Takver]

I assume that retroactively terminating Grubwiggler's protection so they could help her steal Roys body back was a necessary sacrifice to make their made-up story of Haley's whereabouts seem more legitimate. Grubwriggler got the short end of the( Order of the) stick.

I agree. The chain of thought here is, if Haley was always in the Guild, then her robbery at Grubwiggler's must have been approved by the Guild. If the Guild would approve a robbery at Grubwiggler's, then he must not have had the Guild's protection plan. Of course he DID, but in order for their story to work, they need to say he didn't. So he's out of luck.

[malloyd]

I'm not sure if you are kidding or not or if I'm reading your sentence ("see her go to work with him"), BrotherMirtillo, but that whole strip is just a series of double entendres ('junk', 'package', etc. are all American English slang terms for a man's private parts). Almost every sentence is intended to be a double entendre and apart from the ship I don't think any of it is meant to be something that exists/we should be worrying about beyond that strip.

Though there is a fairly substantial break in Hinjo's (and Roy's) story between ordering the ships to sail at dawn (414) and 418 (opens with the other ships leaving at dawn). Presumably Roy beat the ninjas he's fighting off at the end of 414, and at some point during the night Hinjo ordered this women to take care of his package.

The Conservation of Detail faction must not have been as rabid then, or we'd still be hearing about it.

[BrotherMirtillo]

But when forced between dropping protection (and pretending it never was there), or possible dissolving of the Thieves Guild, the first becomes the better alternative.
I don't think they care the least about their clientele.


Of course he DID [have their protection plan], but in order for their story to work, they need to say he didn't. So he's out of luck.

[sigh] Yes, that's seems to be the size of it. And seeing as it's Hank okaying the backtrack, that contract is as good as burnt.


I'm not sure if you are kidding or not [...] Apart from the ship I don't think any of it is meant to be something that exists/we should be worrying about beyond that strip.

Yeah, I was kidding. I just felt like keeping the theme going. :smallwink:

Seeing as Azure City got rather chopped up and shoveled out, I'm not holding my breath for the detail to reappear. Maybe it was some last bit of wartime preparation, one that became obsolete when Redcloak's troops ripped through the defenses. Maybe (and this was my best guess) it was a message to the elves, Hinjo's first of many requests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) for help against a perilous lich.

Or maybe Rich felt like throwing in a synonym for junk. Probably that.

[Rodin]

Obviously, inside the crate is Redcloak's niece. How else is she to get to the Western continent to fulfill her destiny?

One thing I didn't understand for forever was this strip: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0711.html

I got the obvious Avon joke immediately, but could not work out what the overall joke of the strip was. She had obviously been routed to the wrong guild, but why a bunch of makeup saleswomen?

Then someone a couple weeks ago pointed out that they are the Rouge's Guild, and my wall received some new dents as I banged my head into it repeatedly.

[jamiah93]

in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html, V hits the Dragon dead-on with what appears to be a yellow(biggest color of the spectrum) beam of Prismatic Spray, doing at least 40 electricity damage, yet the dragon appears to have all her hit-points and simply replies with "No." Why is that?

Also, how old is Redcloak that he actually knows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)about Soul Splices, even though they are a "special once-a-century deal" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)?

[RMS Oceanic]

in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html, V hits the Dragon dead-on with what appears to be a yellow(biggest color of the spectrum) beam of Prismatic Spray, doing at least 40 electricity damage, yet the dragon appears to have all her hit-points and simply replies with "No." Why is that?

A couple of reasons that may complement each other.

- Ancient Black Dragons have around 387 hit points on average, so 40 hit points is a drop in the ocean, even less of a drop if she made her save, and thus the damage doesn't show.
- Vaarsuvius was hoping for one of PS's insta-kill effects, and saying "No" comfirms that none of them stuck.

[RabidEel]

Strip 619, "Wow, That's a Spicy Meatball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html)"

Is the title supposed to be a reference to something? It sounds like it's a reference to something.

[SavageWombat]

Strip 619, "Wow, That's a Spicy Meatball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html)"

Is the title supposed to be a reference to something? It sounds like it's a reference to something.

Really old antacid commercial. 70's maybe?

[Keltest]

Strip 619, "Wow, That's a Spicy Meatball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html)"

Is the title supposed to be a reference to something? It sounds like it's a reference to something.

I think its referring to the "meatballs" on the boss mob's plate being little heads.

[SebastionMaugri]

Really old antacid commercial. 70's maybe?

1969 Alka Seltzer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQhwNtY3N2k). It's become one of those obligatory things to say in a bad Italian accent.

[MesiDoomstalker]

in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html, V hits the Dragon dead-on with what appears to be a yellow(biggest color of the spectrum) beam of Prismatic Spray, doing at least 40 electricity damage, yet the dragon appears to have all her hit-points and simply replies with "No." Why is that?

Also, how old is Redcloak that he actually knows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)about Soul Splices, even though they are a "special once-a-century deal" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)?

It could be the one and only time V failed his Caster Level check to overcome the ABD Spell Resistance.

Redcloak really doesn't need to be super old, just have read about it. I think the Geekery thread pegs him in his 50s (which is OLD for a Goblin), but as its been shown, RC reads a lot of source books. I wouldn't doubt he read it in some obscure source book.

[Goosefarble]

Also, how old is Redcloak that he actually knows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)about Soul Splices, even though they are a "special once-a-century deal" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)?

He's read books?

[RMS Oceanic]

Also, how old is Redcloak that he actually knows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)about Soul Splices, even though they are a "special once-a-century deal" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)?

Simple answer: Rolled very well on his Knowledge (Religion) check.

My personal opinion: The IFCC were playing up how uber special these were, reinforced by their asking V not to look it up, in case their actual effects were revealed.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Also, how old is Redcloak that he actually knows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)about Soul Splices, even though they are a "special once-a-century deal" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)?

It's probably less to do with soul-splices being a once a century thing (which was probably an exaggeration anyway, typical sales pitch stuff) and more to do with the knowledge the Crimson Mantle gives him.


Redcloak receives the Crimson Mantle 34 years before the start of the comic. He seems to be a young adult at that point, old enough for his family to be trying to set him up with somebody to bear his children, but goblin ageing is probably different enough that we can't draw a concrete conclusion from that. I'd say around 40 years old.

[AKA_Bait]

Also, how old is Redcloak that he actually knows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)about Soul Splices, even though they are a "special once-a-century deal" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)?

To add to the foregoing why Redcloak would know about soul splices, in SOD:

The Crimson Mantle is shown to info dump a whole bunch of stuff into its bearer's mind upon being first worn. The Plan is part of that information, but may not have been all of it. Certain potentially Plan-helpful or Plan-relevant cosmological facts, like the possibility of soul splices, may also have been included.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Yanisa]

What was Thog doing in Page 2, Panel6? Looking for something to smash Roy with? Going to free Z? Walking away??

Trog is using the dungeon crasher + shock trooper tactic right? Well he needs to charge to use those abilities, thus he needs range. My bet is he is getting distance to charge Roy, while looking at Roy so he knows where to charge. Compare panel 6 to panel 8. :smallwink:

Besides, I think Trog is too much in rage to be focusing on other things then combat, like freeing Z.

[Trurl]

In 477 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), MitD referred to "Xykon's brothers". Have we seen or heard of any of these at any other instance? :smallconfused:

[MesiDoomstalker]

In 477 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), MitD referred to "Xykon's brothers". Have we seen or heard of any of these at any other instance? :smallconfused:

He was referring to the Undead Lookalikes Redcloak made to play their shell game. The Death Knight, Hecuva and Eye of Fear and Flame.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Strip 619, "Wow, That's a Spicy Meatball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html)"

Is the title supposed to be a reference to something? It sounds like it's a reference to something.

There's also a reference to The Mask, where Jim Carrey quotes the line.

[XRellikX]

There's also a reference to The Mask, where Jim Carrey quotes the line.

I don't think its a link to "The Mask", moreso as it is a link to Italians, which is a link to Mafia, which is a link to the Mobster-like Godfather in that comic panel in the end.

[EDIT] With Mobsters in-comic a pun to MMORPG term MOB

[Peelee]

Then someone a couple weeks ago pointed out that they are the Rouge's Guild, and my wall received some new dents as I banged my head into it repeatedly.

Ooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

So if it makes you feel any better, that got me too.

[Rodin]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html

When did Belkar have an opportunity to try Ian's roast chicken?

[RadagastTheBrow]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html

When did Belkar have an opportunity to try Ian's roast chicken?

Presumably it's a reference to whomever wrote "Know When to Fold 'Em." I assume he looks like Colonel Sanders or something.

[Peelee]

Presumably it's a reference to whomever wrote "Know When to Fold 'Em." I assume he looks like Colonel Sanders or something.

Kenny Rogers did "The Gambler," where that line is from. He also opened Kenny Rogers Roasters, a roast chicken fast food restaurant.

Fun fact: I think all Kenny Rogers Roasters are in Indonesia or other southeastern Asian countries, and pretty much abandoned the western world.

I am become ninja.

[orrion]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html

When did Belkar have an opportunity to try Ian's roast chicken?


The "know when to hold 'em" thing are lyrics of a song called The Gambler by Kenny Rogers.

He also co-founded Kenny Rogers Roasters, a chain of chicken-based restaurants, sort of like KFC. They no longer exist in the U.S.

[frighowler]

http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html)

"Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call"

Did we ever find out what haley's secret was?

[martianmister]

http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html)

"Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call"

Did we ever find out what haley's secret was?

No.................

[frighowler]

thank you.

[martianmister]

thank you.

No problem. awkward...

[Ghost Nappa]

Why aren't they called "the Disorder of the Stick"?

I can't think of an actual question off-hand but I know I've had moments about elven physiology and other such things before. I'll be back. I'll certainly be back.



Totally Unrelated: I want to see Roy annoy Xykon by slowly but surely drinking delicious coffee right in front of him. And then name the recipe after himself so that Xykon has to remember his name or forever forget about the delicious coffee.

[Rodin]

Thank you both to Peelee and Orrion, that had been bugging me for years.

[Jay R]

There's also a reference to The Mask, where Jim Carrey quotes the line.

Jim Carrey is giving it the same (though overdone) intonation as the commercial. He is clearly referencing this commercia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQhwNtY3N2k)l in that joke.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

How does Roy know what Hades is in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0356.html) strip?

[Keltest]

How does Roy know what Hades is in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0356.html) strip?

I believe Hades is one of the many alignment planes and subplanes out there, though I have no idea what alignment it is.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So it is unrelated to dead god of the same name?

[DaggerPen]

Well, out of universe, the D&D Hades plane was of course named after the Hades of Greek mythology. In-universe... the gods might have kept the plane named after the Greek gods, and no one but the gods in-universe know where the name came from? It's not like most of the other planes are named after gods, so it wouldn't be an obvious outlier compared to, say, Pandemonium, Acheron, the Nine Hells, etc.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, out of universe, the D&D Hades plane was of course named after the Hades of Greek mythology. In-universe... the gods might have kept the plane named after the Greek gods, and no one but the gods in-universe know where the name came from? It's not like most of the other planes are named after gods, so it wouldn't be an obvious outlier compared to, say, Pandemonium, Acheron, the Nine Hells, etc.
All right, that makes sense. Thanks for answering. :smallsmile:

[The Grim Author]

I believe Hades is one of the many alignment planes and subplanes out there, though I have no idea what alignment it is.

If I recall correctly, it's Neutral Evil.

[SlashDash]

In 370 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html), Miko gets trapped in a the force cage and says "NO! Not again!"

What is that referring to? Have we ever seen Miko being trapped?!?

[Kish]

In 370 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html), Miko gets trapped in a the force cage and says "NO! Not again!"

What is that referring to? Have we ever seen Miko being trapped?!?
She's referring, not to being trapped, but to being prevented from killing an evildoer after coming within inches of doing so, as happened with Belkar.

[Rodin]

In 370 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html), Miko gets trapped in a the force cage and says "NO! Not again!"

What is that referring to? Have we ever seen Miko being trapped?!?

I don't think she's referring to the Forcecage, but rather to being denied the chance to kill an evil-doer at the last second:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html

Same situation, she's standing with her sword raised poised to coup-de-grace a villain...when a third party intervenes to stop her. First Vaarsuvius, then Xykon.

Speaking of, why did Belkar think that Miko would fall for killing him? She was fully justified in her attempts to stop him, so it wouldn't have been an Evil act. It was unlawful since they were within the city, but that's hardly a falling offense (particularly when the target is Belkar). If they'd had the same fight outside the city walls, Miko could have lopped his head off without a second thought.

[Kish]

Speaking of, why did Belkar think that Miko would fall for killing him?
Because in Belkar's mind, killing him is the one killing that would actually, legitimately, be an evil action. Everyone else exists (or existed, before he began to develop some level of empathy) to be his training dummies, but he's actually a person.

[Rodin]

Because in Belkar's mind, killing him is the one killing that would actually, legitimately, be an evil action. Everyone else exists (or existed, before he began to develop some level of empathy) to be his training dummies, but he's actually a person.

Hah! I like it. :smallamused:

[snowblizz]

Speaking of, why did Belkar think that Miko would fall for killing him? She was fully justified in her attempts to stop him, so it wouldn't have been an Evil act. It was unlawful since they were within the city, but that's hardly a falling offense (particularly when the target is Belkar).

I would suggest killing a defeated prisoner (unarmed now) that you were ordered to bring to your lord, alive, may not exactly be lawful (Shojo makes the point about Lawful trial to Miko even) or most likely against the Code. Stop doesn't mean kill after all, that would be Miko's erroneous interpretation. Hinjo makes the same argument, accused until lawfully tried, no matter how guilty one looks. Because that's the lawful not Miko way.

Of course Belkar may be erroneously believing in his own "innocence". The next strip shows he hasn't quite got all the kinks in the plan figured out.

[RNGgod]

Because in Belkar's mind, killing him is the one killing that would actually, legitimately, be an evil action. Everyone else exists (or existed, before he began to develop some level of empathy) to be his training dummies, but he's actually a person.

I think Belkar does think that way, but I'm not sure his belief that Miko would fall for killing him is as clearly delusional as this suggests. I think Belkar did have some belief, whether true or not, that Miko would fall for delivering a prisoner to her Lord and then executing him in front of said Lord without any sort of judicial process.

Again, he may well have been incorrect, but nothing about that comic jumped out as "Belkar's theory is hilariously wrong because he's evil and could be executed!" It was "Belkar's theory is hilariously wrong because he would be dead and no one had the resources to raise him"

[Kish]

I am not addressing whether Miko would have fallen if she killed Belkar at all. Beyond to say, not for the first time, that I think Haley is wise to be as conservative as she is when she states that they know exactly one act that will definitely cause a paladin to fall, "Killing their defenseless liege lord."

I'm just saying, if, if Belkar was right that Miko would have fallen had she killed him, it's in a "stopped clock right two times a day" way.

[RNGgod]

I am not addressing whether Miko would have fallen if she killed Belkar at all. Beyond to say, not for the first time, that I think Haley is wise to be as conservative as she is when she states that they know exactly one act that will definitely cause a paladin to fall, "Killing their defenseless liege lord."

I'm just saying, if, if Belkar was right that Miko would have fallen had she killed him, it's in a "stopped clock right two times a day" way.

Ah. Yeah, I would agree. Apologies if I misinterpreted.

[SlashDash]

She's referring, not to being trapped, but to being prevented from killing an evildoer after coming within inches of doing so, as happened with Belkar.


I don't think she's referring to the Forcecage, but rather to being denied the chance to kill an evil-doer at the last second:


OH... Now I get it. :smallredface:

[Keltest]

Something occurred to me: if the Order of the Scribble had to be at every gate location to cast the spell, why would Gerard think that giving Soon random co-ordinates in the desert would work? Wouldn't he be able to tell "this doesn't look like a canyon" just by looking at a map? After all, it was the only one in the desert part of the Western Continent.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Deserts are notorious for being unmapped and being generally unremarkable. Soon never went to the coordinates Girard gave him because his Code and what not, so its not like he could say "Hey this isn't a canyon!" Soon delegated map making duties to Girard, so it be safe to say Soon doesn't know how to read a map either or at least lacks the knowledge to just casually glance at some coordinates and tell if they were right or not.

[Keltest]

Deserts are notorious for being unmapped and being generally unremarkable. Soon never went to the coordinates Girard gave him because his Code and what not, so its not like he could say "Hey this isn't a canyon!" Soon delegated map making duties to Girard, so it be safe to say Soon doesn't know how to read a map either or at least lacks the knowledge to just casually glance at some coordinates and tell if they were right or not.

Even so, I would think "random point in the desert" would look vastly different from "point in a canyon"

[MesiDoomstalker]

If you looked at a map of a desert, not knowing exactly how to read it and having never seen a map of this particular desert before (remember, most deserts are unmapped). And you were told "This is where we did that gate thing" would you question it? Especially when you wanted to believe it to be true? And the mapmaker could easily fake a map to make it look like the coordinates pointed to a canyon.

The point I'm trying to get at is Soon is unskilled in the particular art of maps and coordinates, Girard isn't and wished to decieve him. Soon, being the LG Paladin, didn't even think Girard would lie to him.

[Kish]

So what if it did? If "Hey, this isn't a canyon" didn't clue Soon in that something was off, Girard's illusion taunting him, telling him "I rolled percentile dice to get those coordinates," and then blowing him up certainly would.

The deception wasn't meant to still be in effect after Soon came to the coordinates.

[Keltest]

If you looked at a map of a desert, not knowing exactly how to read it and having never seen a map of this particular desert before (remember, most deserts are unmapped). And you were told "This is where we did that gate thing" would you question it? Especially when you wanted to believe it to be true? And the mapmaker could easily fake a map to make it look like the coordinates pointed to a canyon.

The point I'm trying to get at is Soon is unskilled in the particular art of maps and coordinates, Girard isn't and wished to decieve him. Soon, being the LG Paladin, didn't even think Girard would lie to him.

Id still argue with you, but your aside about deserts being unmapped made it actually make sense to me. Thank you.

[Blisstake]

Comic 637 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) panel 5. Qaar says "Yeah, and if you pull the other one, it plays Judas Priest."

I mean, I'm familiar with the band, I just don't have even the slightest idea what that's supposed to mean :smallconfused:

[Kish]

Comic 637 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) panel 5. Qaar says "Yeah, and if you pull the other one, it plays Judas Priest."

I mean, I'm familiar with the band, I just don't have even the slightest idea what that's supposed to mean :smallconfused:
The evolution is like this.
"You're making a joke" becomes, "You're pulling my leg," becomes, "Pull the other one, it's got bells on," becomes, "Yeah, and if you pull the other one, it plays Judas Priest."
Thus does slang gradually become completely incomprehensible. Although logically, for that one, it got there pretty fast; anyone who hadn't been told would have no reason to associate pulling a leg with making a joke.

[Keltest]

The evolution is like this.
"You're making a joke" becomes, "You're pulling my leg," becomes, "Pull the other one, it's got bells on," becomes, "Yeah, and if you pull the other one, it plays Judas Priest."
Thus does slang gradually become completely incomprehensible. Although logically, for that one, it got there pretty fast; anyone who hadn't been told would have no reason to associate pulling a leg with making a joke.

Ive decided language does not actually make sense. My English Teachers LIED to me!

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's also a dig at the people who claim rock music in general (and metal in particular) is devil music.

[Mike Havran]

I don't quite understand Bandana's comment from #935 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html).

"No way, no how is some crazy old dude gettin' back on our ship after breakin' a lady's arm."

To me, it seems needlessly long and elaborate. In Stickverse, men and women are equally strong so it shouldn't matter whether an old man breaks arm of a young girl or a young girl breaks arm of an old man. Also, what's so special about breaking an arm in combat? How is that different from a stab in the liver or throwing a ball of acid into the face?

So, I wonder why didn't Bandana shout something quick along the lines "The crazy dude's comin' back! ROUGH SEAS AHEAD, PEOPLE!" but felt the need to stress the details?

[Jay R]

Ive decided language does not actually make sense. My English Teachers LIED to me!

How can you be sure it was a lie if it didn't make sense?

And if it did make sense, it wasn't a lie.

[Keltest]

How can you be sure it was a lie if it didn't make sense?

And if it did make sense, it wasn't a lie.

because I speak Nonsense natively.

[Blisstake]

The evolution is like this.
"You're making a joke" becomes, "You're pulling my leg," becomes, "Pull the other one, it's got bells on," becomes, "Yeah, and if you pull the other one, it plays Judas Priest."
Thus does slang gradually become completely incomprehensible. Although logically, for that one, it got there pretty fast; anyone who hadn't been told would have no reason to associate pulling a leg with making a joke.

Oh, I guess that kind of makes sense. It seems like a bit of a stretch.

I usually associate "pulling my leg" with "joking around." Qaar was responding to an outright lie.

[Porthos]

Pull the other one (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pull%20the%20other%20one), from Urban Dictionary:


Pull the other one (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pull%20the%20other%20one&defid=1919773)
A gentle challenge or rejoinder to a fanciful or bull**** (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bull****) statement or a tall tale (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tall%20tale). An idiom (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=idiom) you use to tell someone that you do not believe what they have just said.

Derived from the game where you ask someone to "pull my finger (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pull%20my%20finger)" and fart (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fart), then ask them to "pull my other finger" or "now pull the other one".
-- Example 1 --

GUY 1:
"Yeah I drank about 20 beers but the cop couldn't tell I was drunk and let me go."
GUY 2:
"Pull the other one. I don't think so."

-- Example 2 --

From Scene 1 of Monty Python (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Monty%20Python) and the Holy Grail:
KING ARTHUR:
Whoa there!
clop clop clop (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=clop%20clop%20clop)
SOLDIER #1:
Halt! Who goes there?
ARTHUR:
It is I, Arthur, son of Uther Pendragon, from the castle of Camelot. King of the Britons, defeater of the Saxons, Sovereign of all England!
SOLDIER #1:
Pull the other one!
ARTHUR:
I am,... and this is my trusty servant Patsy. We have ridden the length and breadth of the land in search of knights who will join me in my court at Camelot.
I must speak with your lord and master.
SOLDIER #1:
What? Ridden on a horse?
ARTHUR:
Yes!
SOLDIER #1:
You're using coconuts!
ARTHUR:
What?

I've always known it as a allusion to farts and whatnot, myself. As noted, its related to the "pull my finger" game.

The one I like to use is "Pull the other one, it plays Mozart." In Qqar's case, he went with a different musical direction. :smallamused:

[Neosmith]

Here' mine: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html

I still don't understand what Elan's plan was. I get that it involved a trojan horse-like element, but what did he need a corkscrew for? To cut his way out of the wooden horse? What's up with the potato salad and the other items?

[Shale]

That's the joke.

[Kish]

Oh, I guess that kind of makes sense. It seems like a bit of a stretch.

I usually associate "pulling my leg" with "joking around." Qaar was responding to an outright lie.
Qarr was implying that the lie was so obvious that the suggestion that he should believe it must be a joke.

[Vinyadan]

Pull my finger.

Ok, just a note about maps. They weren't always as frequent as they are today, and medieval representations of the world were actually representations of concepts, and thus useless for travel. Those who worked were kept as a national secret.

The presence of coordinates actually requires some massive background structure, such as a unified system followed by cartographers. But coordinates require mathematical thinking to be used correctly, as well as some instruments - a map and a romer. These may appear simple, but actually need to be built following the same reference system; and you can't use a romer, if you don't have any experience, or someone to teach you, or are already familiar with Cartesian graphs.

Besides the coordinates, you also have to know how to read a map. For us it comes natural - green low, brown mountains, color levels mean different heights in between. If someone hasn't received the training, however, he won't see it naturally. Soon could actually have thought that the different colors were due to the different kinds of minerals the ground was made of, or the chance of people passing by, or actual sand color. Assuming that there were different colours: old style maps, such as those used by armies, are black and white with isometric lines. Reading one of those, if you don't know how to, can really be tricky (http://www.altavalle.org/upload/111_PiuzzoIGM.jpg).

[MesiDoomstalker]

Here' mine: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html

I still don't understand what Elan's plan was. I get that it involved a trojan horse-like element, but what did he need a corkscrew for? To cut his way out of the wooden horse? What's up with the potato salad and the other items?

To expand, the joke is the bunch of nonsensical items that make no sense out of context suggest an overly convoluted plan. If the plan was to ever be explained, it ruin the joke because no sane plan with any kind of logic would use so many nonsensical objects.

[Keltest]

To expand, the joke is the bunch of nonsensical items that make no sense out of context suggest an overly convoluted plan. If the plan was to ever be explained, it ruin the joke because no sane plan with any kind of logic would use so many nonsensical objects.

Its a sort of inverse Noodle Incident (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoodleIncident)

[MesiDoomstalker]

Its a sort of inverse Noodle Incident (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoodleIncident)

More like a Noodle Plan. Its a Noodle Incident that never happened.

[Jay R]

because I speak Nonsense natively.

Then your English teacher's job is done.

[Shale]

Your Trope Of The Day is Noodle Implements (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoodleImplements).

[Gnoman]

Its a sort of inverse Noodle Incident (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoodleIncident)

More precisely, it is a plan that uses Noodle Implements (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoodleImplements).

[BaronOfHell]

Wouldn't he be able to tell "this doesn't look like a canyon" just by looking at a map?

There's also a matter of detail level, since there's no cities located the the spot Girard picked, I doubt there are maps which greatly details said spot. From the zoom level of a map containing the entire western continent, the canyon the scribble traveled (like the Order during a single day), may not be large enough to stand out and neither important enough to be noted.

[M.A.D]

I don't quite understand Bandana's comment from #935 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html).

"No way, no how is some crazy old dude gettin' back on our ship after breakin' a lady's arm."

To me, it seems needlessly long and elaborate. In Stickverse, men and women are equally strong so it shouldn't matter whether an old man breaks arm of a young girl or a young girl breaks arm of an old man. Also, what's so special about breaking an arm in combat? How is that different from a stab in the liver or throwing a ball of acid into the face?

So, I wonder why didn't Bandana shout something quick along the lines "The crazy dude's comin' back! ROUGH SEAS AHEAD, PEOPLE!" but felt the need to stress the details?

You know what they say, speaking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html) is a free action (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TalkingIsAFreeAction). She can technically give a whole speech in that balloon and still have time for the rough sea maneuver.

And just because men and women have equal strength doesn't mean the morals of our world doesn't apply, especially on a classic heroes-rescuing-maidens-in-distresses-type crew that Julio owns. It's just basic manners that a man should never go rough on a lady, unless in appropriate circumstances where she specifically asks for/consents to/deserves it - and sometimes not even then.

About Haley's broken arm, it's probably like Redcloak's missing eye, which can't be healed by Healing potions. It requires a Regeneration spell cast on it to get it well again.

[Jay R]

To expand, the joke is the bunch of nonsensical items that make no sense out of context suggest an overly convoluted plan. If the plan was to ever be explained, it ruin the joke because no sane plan with any kind of logic would use so many nonsensical objects.

No, no, no, the plan is pretty complicated, but it makes perfect sense once you realize that the alpaca is pine, not oak, the soapbox is half-full, and the potato salad has chives.

Once you work out the plan, it's also pretty clear what species the Monster in the Dark is, and what favor Laurin is going to ask for.

[enh]

No, no, no, the plan is pretty complicated, but it makes perfect sense once you realize that the alpaca is pine, not oak, the soapbox is half-full, and the potato salad has chives.

Once you work out the plan, it's also pretty clear what species the Monster in the Dark is, and what favor Laurin is going to ask for.

Either you desperately need to write some novels, or you desperately need to be prevented from writing novels. I'm conflicted as to which.

Although, I would buy those novels.

[Rodin]

You know what they say, speaking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html) is a free action (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TalkingIsAFreeAction). She can technically give a whole speech in that balloon and still have time for the rough sea maneuver.

And just because men and women have equal strength doesn't mean the morals of our world doesn't apply, especially on a classic heroes-rescuing-maidens-in-distresses-type crew that Julio owns. It's just basic manners that a man should never go rough on a lady, unless in appropriate circumstances where she specifically asks for/consents to/deserves it - and sometimes not even then.

About Haley's broken arm, it's probably like Redcloak's missing eye, which can't be healed by Healing potions. It requires a Regeneration spell cast on it to get it well again.

The overly convoluted nature of the speech is more likely due to an accent. Bandana seems to be channeling an old-timey Southern U.S. riverboat captain. Or maybe Clint Eastwood.

[BrotherMirtillo]

I've avoided speculation on this next issue's future, but my question is about its past. (If it's already been done elsewhere, a link would be more than welcome.)

I know how Redcloak got his intel about the nature of the Snarl. How did the Order of the Scribble ever learn anything about it? Someone had to pass the lore down to Shojo, but knowledge of an entire extinct pantheon (not to mention the Snarl's capabilities) doesn't seem like you could exactly find a fingerprint or a fossil under a rock somewhere.

[Kish]

Redcloak got it from a god. Probably, the Order of the Scribble did as well--or from Dorukan's divinations.

[BrotherMirtillo]

Redcloak got it from a god. Probably, the Order of the Scribble did as well--or from Dorukan's divinations.

The divinations I could potentially believe. Not being a D&D player, I don't know how much one can deduce via magical study -- either by the rules or by authorial fudge factor. However, I thought all the gods NOT interested in the Snarl's freedom were keeping it secret (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), as Roy guessed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html).

And I still don't think one could deduce the previous existence of an entire shredded pantheon. Unless... I just got the mental image of Dorukan magically peering through the rift and seeing an impossibly huge beastie with bits of divine corpses stuck in its teeth. [shudder]

[MesiDoomstalker]

I've avoided speculation on this next issue's future, but my question is about its past. (If it's already been done elsewhere, a link would be more than welcome.)

I know how Redcloak got his intel about the nature of the Snarl. How did the Order of the Scribble ever learn anything about it? Someone had to pass the lore down to Shojo, but knowledge of an entire extinct pantheon (not to mention the Snarl's capabilities) doesn't seem like you could exactly find a fingerprint or a fossil under a rock somewhere.

We don't know. In fact, this is somewhat of a plot point at the moment. Who learned what from where and who is trustworthy is all kind of up in the air, as what we've been told is contradicting what we are seeing first hand.

[mightycleric]

The gods didn't want to reveal the existence of the Snarl, for fear that somebody would try to release it. However, when the Snarl started making rifts in the world, that could eventually lead to it getting loose, and when mortals had noticed these rifts, it makes sense for the gods to be a little more forthcoming.

The Sapphire Guard is at odds with the "Bearer of the Crimson Mantle" because their pantheon probably knows about (or at least suspects) The Dark One's plans for the Snarl, and so they want to wipe out anybody who owns the mantle, to keep the Snarl imprisoned, and away from them.

I would think that the gods would have a vested interest in making sure that, once it was discovered, that the Snarl was completely secured again, then forgotten about by everybody, just like before.

I would not be surprised if the Twelve Gods were the ones who told Soon about it, once it was discovered, with the promise that he helps seal them, then makes sure they are kept secret again.

[martianmister]

What just happened? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0678.html)

[Shale]

In the (American) legal system, you are not officially part of a civil case until you have been formally notified that it exists, in writing. When somebody presents you with the paperwork that says you're being sued (in this case, sued for divorce), that's called being "served notice." When a defendant is hard to find (say, on another continent fighting monsters) or is expected to try and evade the papers, the court sends a "process server" - somebody who is paid to get the paperwork into the person's hands in such a way that they can't reasonably deny that it happened. Here, the guy in the turban put together an elaborate scheme that ended in Vaarsuvius both accepting the scroll and yelling his/her name as loudly as possible, so he (and his familiar, who witnessed the whole thing and can back up Turban Guy's account of what happened) knew for a 100% fact that they had the right elf.

(Also, "Drawmij's instant summons" is a pun on the fact that a document which tells you to come to court is called a summons)

[alaalba_123]

http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html)

"Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call"

Did we ever find out what haley's secret was?

I would speculate that based on the comments before it, it ended "-straight." This is backed up by one of her splits being, "Haley's Latent Bisexuality," and none of the other splits, nor Haley herself, questioning this.

Just my interpretation.

[DaggerPen]

I would speculate that based on the comments before it, it ended "-straight." This is backed up by one of her splits being, "Haley's Latent Bisexuality," and none of the other splits, nor Haley herself, questioning this.

Just my interpretation.

I've seen that speculation, but given that she mentioned kissing several girls in one of the previous panels of the same strip, I'm not sure that it's such an earthshattering thing. No clue what the secret might be, though.

[NerdyKris]

What just happened? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0678.html)

In America, when you are suing someone, you need to serve them papers informing them of this fact. This includes divorce proceedings. There are specific rules that need to be followed to insure that someone isn't just saying they served someone else and then getting a default judgement because the other person never showed up.

Quite often, people will dodge the process server in an attempt to drag out the process and annoy the other party into giving up and dropping the case. (This is often in vain though, since other means can be used after a while)

The popular Hollywood representation of this has the server going straight to subterfuge to get the person to take the papers, rather than giving them the heads up that someone is trying to serve them. That is why the process server goaded Vaarsuvius into a situation where he could pretend to "surrender" and hand over the papers.

[Vinyadan]

In America, when you are suing someone, you need to serve them papers informing them of this fact. This includes divorce proceedings. There are specific rules that need to be followed to insure that someone isn't just saying they served someone else and then getting a default judgement because the other person never showed up.

Quite often, people will dodge the process server in an attempt to drag out the process and annoy the other party into giving up and dropping the case. (This is often in vain though, since other means can be used after a while)

The popular Hollywood representation of this has the server going straight to subterfuge to get the person to take the papers, rather than giving them the heads up that someone is trying to serve them. That is why the process server goaded Vaarsuvius into a situation where he could pretend to "surrender" and hand over the papers.

I believe Grisham made some funny (or exasperating) scenes out of this fact. And there was a crazy Disney parody of Robin Hood where the Sheriff's men shot arrows with papers attached to them, so that the victims could be processed for arrearage towards the State (guess who played the Sheriff's part if not Uncle Scrooge :smallbiggrin:).

[rodneyAnonymous]

It's probably less to do with soul-splices being a once a century thing (which was probably an exaggeration anyway, typical sales pitch stuff) and more to do with the knowledge the Crimson Mantle gives him.


Redcloak receives the Crimson Mantle 34 years before the start of the comic. He seems to be a young adult at that point, old enough for his family to be trying to set him up with somebody to bear his children, but goblin ageing is probably different enough that we can't draw a concrete conclusion from that. I'd say around 40 years old.

Xykon knew about it too. I think it was a minor continuity error for the IFCC to describe a soul splice as very rare and for Xykon to be immediately familiar with the meaning of the phrase and the appropriate tactical response.

[Jay R]

Xykon knew about it too. I think it was a minor continuity error for the IFCC to describe a soul splice as very rare and for Xykon to be immediately familiar with the meaning of the phrase and the appropriate tactical response.

A large meteor striking earth is extremely rare in our world, but we could all recognize it.

Besides, I'm not sure that there's all that much contradiction between "very rare" and "recognizable by epic characters".

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's also possible that Soul Splices fall under Necromancy, which X and R specialize in and V barred.

[Vinyadan]

Xykon knew about it too. I think it was a minor continuity error for the IFCC to describe a soul splice as very rare and for Xykon to be immediately familiar with the meaning of the phrase and the appropriate tactical response.

A Faustian Deal is also very rare by word of Imp, but V knows about it. I think that the Soul Splice thing had to be explained by the IFCC because the readers wouldn't know what it was.
Besides, Xykon probably seeks continuously for ways to increase his power, and he could have found of this one and barred it as useless, while most people would have a few problems when it comes to giving three fiends control over their soul (for example, Redcloak). What I took me a while was understanding that V had not understood how the payment would be exacted, as it seemed pretty clear by the wording (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html).

[Socksy]

I've seen that speculation, but given that she mentioned kissing several girls in one of the previous panels of the same strip, I'm not sure that it's such an earthshattering thing. No clue what the secret might be, though.

Some people suggested on another thread which I can't find:

-Straight

-Human (Part dragon or part celestial)

-Good

-A virgin

amongst other things.

[orrion]

Xykon knew about it too. I think it was a minor continuity error for the IFCC to describe a soul splice as very rare and for Xykon to be immediately familiar with the meaning of the phrase and the appropriate tactical response.

Epic character are very rare, yet Roy is familiar with the rules despite being nowhere near Epic level, and not just the rules but the caster rules while he's a Warrior.

The description was likely more of a reader benefit thing.

[St Fan]

What it took me a while was understanding that V had not understood how the payment would be exacted, as it seemed pretty clear by the wording (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html).

V wasn't in the best state of mind when this happened, between lack of transe and panic over the safety of her family. It's not surprising she would have misunderstood, and then avoided thinking too hard about it afterward out of shame.

[orrion]

A Faustian Deal is also very rare by word of Imp, but V knows about it. I think that the Soul Splice thing had to be explained by the IFCC because the readers wouldn't know what it was.
Besides, Xykon probably seeks continuously for ways to increase his power, and he could have found of this one and barred it as useless, while most people would have a few problems when it comes to giving three fiends control over their soul (for example, Redcloak). What I took me a while was understanding that V had not understood how the payment would be exacted, as it seemed pretty clear by the wording (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html).

V assumed a Faustian deal. In the linked comic, he says "And for this, you would have eternal dominion over my immortal soul once I died?"

The fiends then clarify - to an extent. They state they get his soul for the amount of time he is spliced, but they never bother to disabuse V of the notion that said possession would happen after his death.

[warrl]

Epic character are very rare, yet Roy is familiar with the rules despite being nowhere near Epic level, and not just the rules but the caster rules while he's a Warrior.

But Roy is the son of an epic or near-epic wizard, and has the Int to be a wizard himself; in fact, at least in the earlier pages he was of comparable (or higher) intelligence to Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html).

So him knowing the rules that apply to epic wizards is not unreasonable at all.


The description was likely more of a reader benefit thing.

On the other hand, this is extremely likely to be correct.

[ti'esar]

But Roy is the son of an epic or near-epic wizard, and has the Int to be a wizard himself; in fact, at least in the earlier pages he was of comparable (or higher) intelligence to Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html).

There is no evidence whatsoever to indicate Eugene Greenhilt was "epic or near-epic" and a whole lot of evidence to think that he wasn't.

And I personally don't see what's so contradictory about Xykon (who - while very lazy - has been around for a while, has a lot of free time, knows a decent amount of obscure information, and has an underling who regularly familiarizes himself with secondary sourcebooks) knowing what a soul splice is, and soul splices being considered extremely rare.

[Amphiox]

Given how long he's been around, and his attitude towards power, it is within the realm of conceivability that Xykon read about Soul Splicing or heard about it somewhere, but dismissed it as something he wouldn't be interested in, but he could have remembered it when Darth V appeared.

Alternately, given his knowledge of necromancy and souls, it is also possible that upon SEEING the two spliced souls or having Redcloak describe the situation to him, he just put two and two together and figured out how it worked.

[orrion]

But Roy is the son of an epic or near-epic wizard, and has the Int to be a wizard himself; in fact, at least in the earlier pages he was of comparable (or higher) intelligence to Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html).

So him knowing the rules that apply to epic wizards is not unreasonable at all.



On the other hand, this is extremely likely to be correct.

He did not have higher intelligence than Vaarsuvius, but he had better all around scores.

There's zero reason to think Eugene got anywhere near epic level.

[Sir_Leorik]

What just happened? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0678.html)

If I could elaborate on Shale and NerdyKris' explanations:

1) There is a D&D spell named Drawmij's Instant Summons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm), which summons a previously designated object to the caster. (Small bit of trivia: unlike many of the other spells names after famous Greyhawk Wizards, like Mordenkainen, Tenser or Bigby, who were PCs of EGG, Luke Gygax or other players, Drawmij is actually an anagram of Jim Ward, the name of one of the players in Gygax's campaign whose PC first used the spell.)

2) In the American legal system, a Summons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summons#United_States) is served upon a party to begin a legal proceeding. Usually the Summons might be accompanied by a Complaint (or other legal form; it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction) but this is not always needed. Without a Summons the court has no legal jurisdiction over a party.

3) Service of Process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_of_process) is another part of the American legal system. A process server must testify (usually by fling a written affidavit) that he or she properly served the Summons (or any other legal papers) on the party to the action. In real life (unlike sitcoms or webcomics) most process servers walk up to a party's residence, ask for identification and then provide the summons, rather than engage in tomfoolery or wacky shenanigans.

[Rodin]

Okay, here's one...

In this strip, Elan is shown putting on a pair of grey boots. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html)

Where did these boots come from? Elan is never drawn with boots prior to this page. It seems unlikely that the guards took his boots and then left them in the tent with him, and he is shown with the boots on for the rest of that page. When we next see him, he is back to being boot-less and doesn't gain any boots until he gets his costume change in Cliffport. But...those are a different color, so they aren't the same boots (plus, he lost all his stuff to the cops).

[RMS Oceanic]

Okay, here's one...

In this strip, Elan is shown putting on a pair of grey boots. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html)

Where did these boots come from? Elan is never drawn with boots prior to this page. It seems unlikely that the guards took his boots and then left them in the tent with him, and he is shown with the boots on for the rest of that page. When we next see him, he is back to being boot-less and doesn't gain any boots until he gets his costume change in Cliffport. But...those are a different color, so they aren't the same boots (plus, he lost all his stuff to the cops).

They are boots of Elvenkind, first seen here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) He slipped them on so he could sneak around the camp.

And Elan didn't lose his stuff to the Cliffport Police, Nale took it from him, and Elan reclaimed it all once he rejoined the Order.

[b_jonas]

It's probably less to do with soul-splices being a once a century thing (which was probably an exaggeration anyway, typical sales pitch stuff) and more to do with the knowledge the Crimson Mantle gives him.

Good idea! Maybe the Dark One has planned that the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle would get the soul of an arcane spellcaster spliced to him, thus he would be able to cast both halves of the ritual.

[Socksy]

Good idea! Maybe the Dark One has planned that the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle would get the soul of an arcane spellcaster spliced to him, thus he would be able to cast both halves of the ritual.

Perhaps that's why the IFCC want V's soul- maybe they're after the gates too?

[NerdyKris]

They are boots of Elvenkind, first seen here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) He slipped them on so he could sneak around the camp.

And Elan didn't lose his stuff to the Cliffport Police, Nale took it from him, and Elan reclaimed it all once he rejoined the Order.

In other words, Nale lost his stuff to the Cliffport Police, hence his need to go shopping for magic items as his first stop after fleeing Azure City.

[gorocz]

Then someone a couple weeks ago pointed out that they are the Rouge's Guild, and my wall received some new dents as I banged my head into it repeatedly.

Well, they don't actually have to be named "Rouge's Guild", that can be just a pun for the comic title. All we know is that she heard someone say that this place was full of robbers and thieves. Maybe she just overheard it in someone else's conversation. ("You know Mabel, that Sisterhood of Aton is a dreadful place. They're all just a bunch of robbers and thieves!"), I don't think she would be asking around for the Rogue's Guild, especially since she doesn't know if they would be so open about it as they are in Greysky City...

[Rig]

When heaven is confirmed to exist (presumably with some trial and error for entry requirements), why aren't the people who are evil only those with poor restraint or apparently prepared to accept the consequences? I'm sure you can think of more questions. The only negative i know is that different alignments end up in different heavens.

[Keltest]

When heaven is confirmed to exist (presumably with some trial and error for entry requirements), why aren't the people who are evil only those with poor restraint or apparently prepared to accept the consequences? I'm sure you can think of more questions. The only negative i know is that different alignments end up in different heavens.

Depending on the afterlife in question, some evil ones can be quite pleasant from the perspective of the dead soul. Alternatively, the exact nature of the afterlives is deliberately kept secret (to an extent) so as to not undermine the free will of the mortals.

[Domino Quartz]

What's going on in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0210.html)? What are the animals with displaced images, and why are their images displaced in random positions every panel?

[Porthos]

What's going on in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0210.html)? What are the animals with displaced images, and why are their images displaced in random positions every panel?

They're Displacer Beasts (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Displacer_beast), a classic D&D monster.

The gag refers to their ability to look like they are in a different place than they really are. :smallsmile:

[DaggerPen]

When heaven is confirmed to exist (presumably with some trial and error for entry requirements), why aren't the people who are evil only those with poor restraint or apparently prepared to accept the consequences? I'm sure you can think of more questions. The only negative i know is that different alignments end up in different heavens.

I believe the Evil afterlives are typically sold as a place where you can climb through the ranks by the merit of your sword/wit/etc., conquering the weak and ascending to demon/devil/daemonhood. What most evil people fail to realize is that they're basically always going to be in the weak being trod on by the more powerful.

[Sir_Leorik]

I believe the Evil afterlives are typically sold as a place where you can climb through the ranks by the merit of your sword/wit/etc., conquering the weak and ascending to demon/devil/daemonhood. What most evil people fail to realize is that they're basically always going to be in the weak being trod on by the more powerful.

Exactly. These are the sort of people who would rather rule in the Nine Hells than serve in Mt. Celestia, but these addlecoved sods don't seem to understand the Chant: they are going to be serving in the Nine Hells, not ruling it. And it is much better to serve in Mt. Celestia than to serve in the Nine Hells.

[Vinyadan]

My personal opinion is that evil is its own punishment and that, once pulled away from the body, the soul cannot divert itself from the suffering caused by evilness as it did in life through corporal means. So, any afterlife an evil soul is going to have will be a form of hell.
It's a bit like a form of oversimplified karmic retribution, only, instead of being determined through karma points, the result is built in the nature of good, evil and souls.
And, as said, personal opinion, probably never to be found in any rulebook.

[Rig]

Xykon was smart enough to realize that hell isn't a nice place for the evil. The whole deal with the snarl is because no afterlife is an entirely new concept to at the very least the adventurers and most likely the rest of the world, so I'd scratch general ignorance. The goblins seem to get a reasonable afterlife, but the trio of archfiends and their inventive uses for souls indicates this isn't universal.

There may be a "you had to do it because you thought it was the right thing to do and not because it get's you into heaven" clause, which would explain a lot.

Strictly canon, please.

[CRtwenty]

When heaven is confirmed to exist (presumably with some trial and error for entry requirements), why aren't the people who are evil only those with poor restraint or apparently prepared to accept the consequences? I'm sure you can think of more questions. The only negative i know is that different alignments end up in different heavens.

From regular D&D canon the details of the afterlife are unknown to most regular people. The only ones who have any real details are people with direct contact to the Outer Planes (high level casters mostly) and most of the entities directly involved with the afterlife have a vested interest in keeping the details secret so there's a lot of misinformation from every side.

Furthermore the Outer Planes are so completely different from the regular world that even people who have experienced them usually can't explain them very well (see Roy trying to explain his experience in Celestia).

Most mortals are far more concerned with their actual lives that they don't care about the afterlife until they find themselves in it. And since they go somewhere that fits their alignment anyway even the worst section of Hell is filled with people who know they deserve to be there.

[Sir_Leorik]

From regular D&D canon the details of the afterlife are unknown to most regular people.

These folks are referred to as "Clueless Primes". That's a bit of an anachronism, since the Material Plane (aka the Natural World) hasn't been referred to as the Prime Material Plane in over thirteen years.


The only ones who have any real details are people with direct contact to the Outer Planes (high level casters mostly) and most of the entities directly involved with the afterlife have a vested interest in keeping the details secret so there's a lot of misinformation from every side.

Or anyone who bothers to take ranks in Knowledge (The Planes) in order to fight Outsiders or Elementals.


Furthermore the Outer Planes are so completely different from the regular world that even people who have experienced them usually can't explain them very well (see Roy trying to explain his experience in Celestia).

Most mortals are far more concerned with their actual lives that they don't care about the afterlife until they find themselves in it. And since they go somewhere that fits their alignment anyway even the worst section of Hell is filled with people who know they deserve to be there.

Another important point, at least in 2E Planescape campaigns, is that many Petitioners (but by no means all) had little or no memory of their mortal identity. This was definitely true of Factol Hashkar of the Fraternity of Order who didn't even know he was a Petitioner.

In addition, in D&D there are mortals who become Evil specifically to gain power, as well as other mortals who are swept up into cults and become progressively more degenerate. A good example is the Cult of Vecna in 3.X. Vecna is a god of secrets, and his followers blackmail their relatives, friends and neighbors into joining the cult by threatening to reveal damaging secrets. These new members seek to gain leverage over other members of the Cult, so they engage in worse and worse deeds to learn secrets about them. In the meantime, Vecna is plotting schemes to recover his lost Hand and Eye, building new Golems to serve him, and planning the destruction of all of the gods. All of them. And when one of Vecna's followers dies, they most likely become undead serving him, rather than petitioners, since Vecna has no Realm on the Outer Planes. At least Redcloak is serving a deity who wants to improve the lot of the Goblins, and isn't just a deicidal maniac.

[Gift Jeraff]

Not really a thing I didn't understand, but was it ever implied that Bozzok killed the old guildmaster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html)? I swear I remember reading that somewhere but now I can't find it. Maybe it was just fan speculation.

[Kish]

Not implied by anything more than Bozzok's personality and his mentioning that the old guildmaster was the guildmaster up until he died, rather than retiring to Cliffport.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

IIRC, no. All that was said (from what I remember) was that when the old Guildmaster died, Bozzok took over, and then he removed Ian from play. That doesn't mean it's not true or likely, just that there's no evidence.

[Beermancer]

Sorry for the little necroing, but this is the best thread I came across to ask.

I was re-reading the older strips, and came to #194 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html). First panel, the hell is that creature???

I remember when I first read the strip (NINE years ago, can't believe), I told myself "better ask the forum" but then I forgot about it and went on.

I'm not into D&D, I stopped playing 20 years ago more or less, and never played that much. I'm pretty sure it's not a gryphon or a wyvern. And... is that a beard??? Explanations please.

[Shale]

A Sphinx, maybe?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Looks like an Androsphinx, though it could be a Shedu. Just not that many Good aligned monsters.

[Agnostik]

Most things I didn't understand were related to paper D&D rules, cause my experience with the system is primarily through D&D video games.

So here's two off the top of my head:

- The "treasure type O" joke. I get what Roy is referring to (heh heh), but what does that mean in D&D?

- The CSI (?) joke about rolling 00 on an encounter table ("roll twice and combine? poor bastard") went over my head completely. Please explain. :smallsmile:

[Lord Torath]

I was re-reading the older strips, and came to #194 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html). First panel, the hell is that creature???

I remember when I first read the strip (NINE years ago, can't believe), I told myself "better ask the forum" but then I forgot about it and went on.

I'm not into D&D, I stopped playing 20 years ago more or less, and never played that much. I'm pretty sure it's not a gryphon or a wyvern. And... is that a beard??? Explanations please.I was going to say a Lammasu (http://www.dotd.com/mm/MM00181.htm).

The "treasure type O" joke. I get what Roy is referring to (heh heh), but what does that mean in D&D?There are around 26 treasure types (A - Z), each with a particular amount of various types of treasure (coins, gems, jewels/art objects, and magic). Each monster also has one or more treasure types listed with it, indicating what types and how much treasure it typically carries/hoards.

The CSI (?) joke about rolling 00 on an encounter table ("roll twice and combine? poor bastard") went over my head completely. Please explain. :smallsmile:Encounter tables are used to determine random encounters, any one of which should be a moderate challenge to the PCs. Rolling twice and combining pits the party against both results.

[Shale]

- The "treasure type O" joke. I get what Roy is referring to (heh heh), but what does that mean in D&D?

Treasure tables used to be categorized by letter, so a monster might have "Treasure Type D" in its stat block and the DM could just turn to that page of the handbook and get a complete list of appropriate items for it to drop.


- The CSI (?) joke about rolling 00 on an encounter table ("roll twice and combine? poor bastard") went over my head completely. Please explain. :smallsmile:

When you want to do truly random encounters, you pull up a table of level-appropriate monsters and roll a d100 to see what your adventurers will be up against. If the die comes up 00, you roll twice and the adventurers have to fight both resulting monster groups at once.

[Agnostik]

Thank you very much guys. :smallwink:

[orrion]

That's Law and Order, not CSI. Elan mentions it in the previous panel. It has to be one of the last seasons since the characters look like McCoy, Cutter, and Rubirosa. And I guess the dwarf is Detective Green.

[SavageWombat]

That's Law and Order, not CSI. Elan mentions it in the previous panel. It has to be one of the last seasons since the characters look like McCoy, Cutter, and Rubirosa. And I guess the dwarf is Detective Green.

I thought the dwarf was supposed to be Ice-T on whatever show that is.

[orrion]

I thought the dwarf was supposed to be Ice-T on whatever show that is.

Oh, right, I guess it's McCoy, Benson, Stabler and Tutuola (Ice-T). That makes better sense. And maybe the gray guy is Munch? Meh, whatever.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, Munsch, given how old the strip in question is.

[Agnostik]

That's Law and Order, not CSI. Elan mentions it in the previous panel. It has to be one of the last seasons since the characters look like McCoy, Cutter, and Rubirosa. And I guess the dwarf is Detective Green.I stand corrected. I haven't watched either, generally not a fan of the genre. :smalltongue:

[BaronOfHell]

I was re-reading the older strips, and came to #194 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html). First panel, the hell is that creature???

Whenever I see a human face on a lion's body (four legs + the right color), I just assume Manticore.

[Gift Jeraff]

Sorry for the little necroing, but this is the best thread I came across to ask.

I was re-reading the older strips, and came to #194 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html). First panel, the hell is that creature???

I remember when I first read the strip (NINE years ago, can't believe), I told myself "better ask the forum" but then I forgot about it and went on.

I'm not into D&D, I stopped playing 20 years ago more or less, and never played that much. I'm pretty sure it's not a gryphon or a wyvern. And... is that a beard??? Explanations please.

It's a lammasu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lammasu_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)). EDIT: Oops. Didn't notice someone else suggested it was this.

[Porthos]

Oh, right, I guess it's McCoy, Benson, Stabler and Tutuola (Ice-T). That makes better sense. And maybe the gray guy is Munch? Meh, whatever.

Just for completeness (and that names are being thrown around) the panel is a parody of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_%26_Order:_Special_Victims_Unit) with the four characters being from left to right:

John Munch, Olivia Benson, Elliot Stabler, and Odafin Tutuola, which were pretty much the 'core cast' (along with Donald Cragen, not shown) throughout almost all of show.

And now you know... :smallsmile:
(GI JOE!)

[Beermancer]

Thank you guys, finally some light.

Oddly enough, description says Lammasu having "shaggy mane and beard" and all depicitions of it I came so far, show a very abundant hair/mane indeed..
The one in the strip seems bald with just the beard...:smallconfused:

[Sir_Leorik]

Thank you guys, finally some light.

Oddly enough, description says Lammasu having "shaggy mane and beard" and all depicitions of it I came so far, show a very abundant hair/mane indeed..
The one in the strip seems bald with just the beard...:smallconfused:

I think that monster might be an Androsphinx, the male counterpart of the Gynosphinx mentioned in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0710.html). Androsphinxes were Good Aligned, and not concerned with riddles. Or it could just be a Lammasu. Both are valid options. As for it being bald, that's male pattern baldness. It strikes Magical Beasts and Humanoids alike. :smalltongue:

[Mad Humanist]

I've gotta ask this.

Soon first discovers a rift in the Elven lands but he initially missed the rift in his home city. Have I misunderstood something?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Azure City one was smaller, high up, and wasn't killing anyone.

[Shale]

The Azure City rift was high above the city (remember, the castle was built around it) and very small.

[Mad Humanist]

Azure City one was smaller, high up, and wasn't killing anyone.

Still bit too much of coincidence. Doesn't Mijung say she never saw anything like it?

[happyman]

I've gotta ask this.

Soon first discovers a rift in the Elven lands but he initially missed the rift in his home city. Have I misunderstood something?

Mostly the fact that the rift above Azure city was both extremely small and extremely high. Also, we don't know when the rifts formed relative to each other. It could have formed a (relatively brief) time later as well.

[Shale]

Still bit too much of coincidence. Doesn't Mijung say she never saw anything like it?

And unless she was in the habit of using Fly spells to inspect random bits of the sky, she wouldn't have.

[Mad Humanist]

Mostly the fact that the rift above Azure city was both extremely small and extremely high. Also, we don't know when the rifts formed relative to each other. It could have formed a (relatively brief) time later as well.

It all looks like a post-hoc plastering over a plot-hole to me. Still I guess I'd better let the plasterers get on with it. This is an awesome story. No complaints over all.

[NerdyKris]

It all looks like a post-hoc plastering over a plot-hole to me. Still I guess I'd better let the plasterers get on with it. This is an awesome story. No complaints over all.

It's not a plot hole if it was introduced and explained in the same strip. Don't be ridiculous. Rich could have just written it differently if it caused a plot hole.

The Azure City rift was tiny and hundreds of feet in the air. Lirian's was human sized and at ground level. One is far easier to spot than the other.

[Mad Humanist]

It's not a plot hole if it was introduced and explained in the same strip. Don't be ridiculous. Rich could have just written it differently if it caused a plot hole.

The Azure City rift was tiny and hundreds of feet in the air. Lirian's was human sized and at ground level. One is far easier to spot than the other.

Imagine you go on holiday to a neighbouring country and find that the hotel room next to yours is occupied by an alien. You return home and find out that the neighbour who moved in the month before you went on holiday is also an alien. You investigate further and discover that only FIVE aliens have landed on planet Earth. Isn't your alien next door neighbour a bit of a coincidence?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Imagine you go on holiday to a neighbouring country and find that the hotel room next to yours is occupied by an alien. You return home and find out that the neighbour who moved in the month before you went on holiday is also an alien. You investigate further and discover that only FIVE aliens have landed on planet Earth. Isn't your alien next door neighbour a bit of a coincidence?

Except that you never saw your neighbor until after you met the first alien. An incredible coincidence that there just happened to be an alien near you, but not surprising you didn't notice they were an alien.

[warrl]

Soon discovered the rifts first in the Elven lands for one very simple reason:

That's where he was when the rifts formed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html).

(The next page reveals he was on a diplomatic mission, but I think it might have been a working honeymoon...)

[NerdyKris]

Imagine you go on holiday to a neighbouring country and find that the hotel room next to yours is occupied by an alien. You return home and find out that the neighbour who moved in the month before you went on holiday is also an alien. You investigate further and discover that only FIVE aliens have landed on planet Earth. Isn't your alien next door neighbour a bit of a coincidence?

This isn't your neighbor. This is a pinhole tear in reality hundreds of feet in the air with no reason to ever look at it. They probably found it BECAUSE Soon recognized some property of the person sized rifts as being similar to a phenomena in Azure City.

But if you want to be convinced that this is a plot hole that Rich somehow missed despite being in the same strip that introduces the character as being from that city, go ahead. But "plot hole" doesn't mean "I don't like the explanation".

[Vinyadan]

This isn't your neighbor. This is a pinhole tear in reality hundreds of feet in the air with no reason to ever look at it. They probably found it BECAUSE Soon recognized some property of the person sized rifts as being similar to a phenomena in Azure City.

But if you want to be convinced that this is a plot hole that Rich somehow missed despite being in the same strip that introduces the character as being from that city, go ahead. But "plot hole" doesn't mean "I don't like the explanation".

:eek: A rift formed in one of the characters' city? Which are the chances?

:durkon: Och, right. Like a hunnerd percent, in this comic.

So I'd say that it was not only entirely reasonable, but also in keeping with the comic's storytelling style.

And, after all, coincidences happen.

[Sir_Leorik]

Imagine you go on holiday to a neighbouring country and find that the hotel room next to yours is occupied by an alien. You return home and find out that the neighbour who moved in the month before you went on holiday is also an alien. You investigate further and discover that only FIVE aliens have landed on planet Earth. Isn't your alien next door neighbour a bit of a coincidence?

The Azure City Rift was Fine size. That gives it a +16 bonus on Hide checks. It was around five stories above street level, giving anyone looking for it a -10 penalty to spot checks. The only way to make this sort of Spot check is to actively look for the Rift, thereby making opposed Hide and Spot checks. While the Rift has no skill points, it probably got a circumstance bonus during the day (from sun glare) and anyone making a Spot check would have a circumstance penalty from neck strain. So unless someone was flying up and inspecting the Rift (like Lirian or Dorukan) they weren't going to discover it. It was too small to snatch birds, and wasn't close to any buildings.