Challenge: Core Mundane vs Tarrasque, Man to M... Monster.

[INoKnowNames]

I know that, baring that rampage like rush, the Tarrasque is pretty much a joke when it comes to high optimization. However... is it possible to beat the Tarrasque while going at his level?

No Cleric, No Druid, No Wizard, Sorcerer. Paladin and Ranger are mundane enough, though I'm not sure about Bard... tentative no. No Ranged Combat, and the only spell assistance you get is the Rogue nearby to UMD the scroll of Wish / Miracle on it's body. Bonus points for the least magic items used, and obviously anything that amounts to "call something else to do it" is not an acceptable answer (Candle of Invocation and Ring of 3 Wishes to summon things come to mind).

You are the most elite human (or x core race) of your kind, and you need to defend your city / village / home from this Kaiju that has appeared, with naught more than the gear you have earned from adventuring and the sharpened skills that have earned you your legacy as a Hero. How would you battle the Tarrasque under these conditions? How -could- one battle the Tarrasque under these conditions?

I got the idea for this challenge from developing a character of mine. Even with several bonuses and stacking stat abilities to it, she couldn't get her AC higher than the Tarrasque's Bite to hit (in addition to a d20), which means the big lug could always be able to sink it's fangs into her. And given that was a level 20 caster, I'm not sure how Wotc'd expect a level 20 fighter to stand one on one against the behemoth. Obviously, the answer to that is that a level 20 fighter would have a level 20 rogue, wizard, and cleric helping, and thus they'd all be able to do it at a much lower level, but it did get me curious enough to see what the board might come up with. :smalltongue:

[Shining Wrath]

Going head to head with big T using only melee combat?

Wow.

To get AC up past 57 you'll need to multi-class every class that gives an AC bonus: Monk, Battle Dancer, Swordsage, whatever else you can come up with, and then jack your ability scores through the roof. I once got a Battle Dancer to AC 37 by ECL 13 using, e.g., Monk's belt and boosting CHA, DEX, and WIS to 22 each.

When his bite lands it does ~35 points of damage. You'll need lots of HP.

I don't think it can be done with one melee character without more magic items than you can carry.

[Tvtyrant]

You can knock it out with a cheesed out charger build in a single round and then just keep hitting it till it is so far in the negatives it will never move again in your life time.

[Kaveman26]

Über charger takes him out in one round.

If only players handbook and dungeon master guide are allowed (true core only) this might be tough. Otherwise any decently built charger will one shot it even without a dearth of magic items.

Does it require true hand to claw combat? How about thrown weapons?

[INoKnowNames]

Going head to head with big T using only melee combat?

Wow.

To get AC up past 57 you'll need to multi-class every class that gives an AC bonus: Monk, Battle Dancer, Swordsage, whatever else you can come up with, and then jack your ability scores through the roof. I once got a Battle Dancer to AC 37 by ECL 13 using, e.g., Monk's belt and boosting CHA, DEX, and WIS to 22 each.

When his bite lands it does ~35 points of damage. You'll need lots of HP.

I don't think it can be done with one melee character without more magic items than you can carry.

A few notes: Swordsage doesn't stack with Monk or Battle Dancer, unfortunately. Infact, it would stop the other 2 from working. Plus, only Monk and the Monk's Belt are Core.


You can knock it out with a cheesed out charger build in a single round and then just keep hitting it till it is so far in the negatives it will never move again in your life time.

Not much Ubercharging in Core. But a possible option: beat it in initiative and Barbarian it up for as much damage as you can get, assuming you can beat that 35 AC.


Does it require true hand to claw combat? How about thrown weapons?

Hm... what could you do with thrown weapons in core?

[NoldorForce]

One good bet is probably to keep yourself hidden through Hide in Plain Sight. The tarrasque's only option for foiling stealth is Blind-Fight, and that can easily be foiled by always moving to a different space than where you attacked from.

[Coidzor]

Hm... what could you do with thrown weapons in core?

You can TWF with them for a few more attacks in a round, IIRC. And you can get a flying mount in core if we're counting MM1(buying and training various flying creatures) or DMG(alternate Paladin mounts) text.

[INoKnowNames]

One good bet is probably to keep yourself hidden through Hide in Plain Sight. The tarrasque's only option for foiling stealth is Blind-Fight, and that can easily be foiled by always moving to a different space than where you attacked from.

I'm not sure exactly how well defended you might be, but wouldn't it be hard to do enough damage to it while you are trying to hide in it's shadow (if only because he will have destroyed everything else looking for you)? Plus, it can still make checks to look for you; a natural 20 will happen eventually, or you'll roll a natural 1 to hide. You'd have to defeat him before that point...


You can TWF with them for a few more attacks in a round, IIRC. And you can get a flying mount in core if we're counting MM1(buying and training various flying creatures) or DMG(alternate Paladin mounts) text.

I almost specified no flight in the Op, as well... but I am still interested in how much thrown damage one could do in core alone, at least vs Big T. Still more interested in seeing the soldier with the +5 Holy Flaming Adamantine Cojones to attack Big T directly.

[Jeff the Green]

Human ghost fighter 15. Two options: draining touch to drop its Con to 0; or malevolence to possess it, force it to march to the sea, and drown itself.

More in the spirit (hah) of the challenge, I think an assassin's death attack works. Just HiPS and whack it every three rounds until it rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw. Technically assassin's a caster, but you don't need the spells and could even have an Int below 11 to make them inaccessible.

[Azoth]

If we are using true core, then we have an issue as a pure mundane. We have to make a DC36 will save to even get in the fight. Fun part is that all core mele characters have poor will saves. So we first have to overcome that, and still hope to deal with the +81 grapple that will come in after the first attack.

[Eldariel]

The assumption probably is that Fighters use ranged combat. Anyways, Use Magic Device/Wands/Scrolls to get access to Polymorph & its ilk would help a lot. These would buff you to the point where you can indeed 1v1 it. Honestly, the easiest way to beat it would be to buff your AC to ~77 but the only way to really do that in Core is to use magic heavily or to stack weapons with the Defending-property.

So our options are:
- Ranged combat: banned
- Spells through items: banned
- Combat maneuvers: not feasible against Colossal target without Polymorph
- One-shotting it: not feasible in Core (you can get like 300 damage on a single attack but without Spells/Wildshape/Pounce, there's no full attack)
- AC stacking slugfest: explored below (only feasible by stacking Defending)
- Miss Chance slugfest: explored below

AC stacking: Base AC you can only get +9 AC and the standard +5 Celestial Armor + 26 Dex + Animated +5 Tower Shield + 5 Natural Armor Amulet + 5 Ring of Protection + Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (+1 Insight) only gets you 10+10+8+9+5+5+1 = 48. Add to that +5 Combat Expertise, +3 Defensive Fighting with 5 ranks in Tumble (15 Ranks for +4 is non-Core) and you're only looking at 57. +5 Defending Weapon would get you to 62, Boots of Speed to 63 but no matter how you look at it, to hit 77 you need to stack Defending weapons or use spells.

And here we're looking at -11 to your attacks (plus the Defending weapon, but you probably don't need to actually attack with it, at least not more than once) so even hitting it on natural 1s might be a problem. It's worth noting that the Tarrasque also has Power Attack to punish anyone not stacking AC so we do need some; there's no Elusive Target in Core. This is not feasible without spells or stacking Defending weapons.

Miss Chance based: My own approach would probably be just Barbarian/Fighter/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple (Sorcerer only for qualification purposes - no intent on actually casting spells). You can get decent damage this way. Ring of Blinking/Cloak of Greater Displacement and Ring of Freedom of Movement for the 50% miss chance and immunity to his Improved Grab and stuff. First round has to be Spirited Charge with Lance; otherwise you just give up way too much damage by moving and attacking only once (or it gets to attack first; its reach is too long for you to get full attack back for free).

If you had Polymorph you could Pounce but as it stands, that's not an option. +5 Magical Beast Bane Falchion gives you the ability to penetrate its DR in melee. Greater Fortifications Armor is necessary. I'm not sure how much AC we should stack otherwise; none at all is probably suboptimal since then it gets to Power Attack for 48 which hurts quite a bit with all its attacks.

Without it, the best offense we can generate is Orc Barbarian 12/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 4. We're under Permanent Enlarge Person. Feats would have to be Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus: Falchion, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Dodge or something - it really doesn't matter after Power Attack, Improved Critical & Spirited Charge.

I don't have the time to do the full items (optimizing 760000gp even on simple numeric buffs is an insane amount of work) but I can make assumptions:

32pb
Str 18 (16), Dex 14 (6), Con 16 (10), Int/Wis/Cha No
Strength: 18 + 4 Race + 5 Levels + 5 Tome + 6 Item + 2 Enlarge + 4 Dragon Disciple + 6 Rage = 50 (+20)
Dex: 14 + 6 Item - 2 Enlarge = 18
Con: 16 + 6 Rage + 6 Item + 4 Tome = 32

18 BAB
+20 Str
+5 Weapon
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 Magical Beast Bane
+1 Boots of Speed
+1 Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone
-1 Size
-2 Shaken (there's almost no way to reliably make the DC 36 Will-save without investing way too much in it)

+45

2d6+30 Strength + 5 Weapon + 2 + 2d6 Magical Beast Bane = 2d6 + 37 + 2d6 @ 15-20/x2 (we also have Bite from Dragon Disciple but it does less damage since it's subjected to DR and has no plusses)

HP: 12 + 6.5*15 + 5.5*2 + 2.5*2 + 11*20 = 345(.5)
AC: I'd have to do the exact WBL math for this. This'll probably end up fairly low, but I can assume we'll hit ~30 or so to limit Tarrasque to 24 Power Attack while hitting on 2 with iteratives.

50% miss chance. Freedom of Movement and Greater Fortifications negate much of the randomness.


So, yeah. The offense we can output after 1st round (not gonna do math for 1st round, would need exact items too, but I can assume it's over 200 and under 300):
319.20 at Power Attack -6 (assuming it picks us as a Dodge target)

That means we need 3 full attacks after a 200+ damage charge, or 4 rounds to kill it acting first (it regenerates 40 points a round so 319*3 doesn't do it; only drops it to 21 HP on average). We could potentially dig out extra stats for our attack from items to the point where we could drop it in 3 rounds, so let's just, saving us the trouble of excess math, assume we manage that.

In that time, Power Attacking for -24, Tarrasque is hitting us for (56.05 Bite + 35.62*2 Horns + 36.57*2 Claws + 43.22 Tail)/2 = 121,825 for an average of killing us in 3 rounds.

TL;DR: We kill it in 4 rounds, it kills us in 3. By averages we lose though it's close enough that it's probably only 60/40 for Tarrasque. The individual attack damage is so big the variance is fairly huge here tho.

Some more numbers needed to win this fight on average (we're attacking first due to having the option of mounted charge and superior initiative so if we both kill each other in 3, we win). This approach seems doable if you go through the trouble to actually use the whole WBL to this effect, though.

If we pump base Con to 18 somehow, we get enough HP to survive for 4 rounds on average (though we'll die after Rage expires). If we optimize the offense a bit more to enable more drastic Power Attack, we'll likewise get enough damage to win. Accounting for the Bites probably helps a bit too.

[Coidzor]

One good bet is probably to keep yourself hidden through Hide in Plain Sight. The tarrasque's only option for foiling stealth is Blind-Fight, and that can easily be foiled by always moving to a different space than where you attacked from.

Then you just have to foil Scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent)and Spot, though 23+ability+misc is much better than a combined +17... if they did the Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm)'s math right.

[Azoth]

Might be wasting gold here but... +5 Merciful (+1), frost (+1), Shocking (+1), Vicious (+1), Magic beast bane (+1) Lance is our best way to go for damage on a weapon using core enchantments. +5 to hit and 7d6+5 to damage. The fact it is all subdual and we take 1d6 per swing doesn't particularly matter since all our damage to Big T is subdual.

[zlefin]

Tarrasque has terrible move speed. It has 20 move, and 20 reach, so it can only attack you if you're within 60. It also has 30' space.

I'll take a Paladin 20 or less.
With ride-by attack I get to do one attack a round that doesn't provoke an AoO. With horseshoes of speed, I get 80' speed on the horse, or 90' if I use a light warhorse. That's enough move to start outside Ts range, move in, hit it, move past it (and it's 30' size) and be out of range of a charge.
I traverse 160 or 180'; which exceeds the 150' length big T can reach in a round. Then it's just a matter of hurting it which shouldn't be that hard.

A monk 20 can also pull off something similar with spring attack and move enhancers, he just needs to cobble together enough damage, not sure if he can do that though.

[Eldariel]

Might be wasting gold here but... +5 Merciful (+1), frost (+1), Shocking (+1), Vicious (+1), Magic beast bane (+1) Lance is our best way to go for damage on a weapon using core enchantments. +5 to hit and 7d6+5 to damage. The fact it is all subdual and we take 1d6 per swing doesn't particularly matter since all our damage to Big T is subdual.

That's why one would have to do the exact WBL math; I'm not sure how high weapon attack bonus we can afford, among other things. Tho I'd prefer having the primary weapon be Falchion simply because Big T is not Crit Immune and full attack with Falchion + Improved Critical is going to be multiplying massive chunks of damage (+30 from Strength, +12 Power Attack, +5 weapon, +2 Magical Beast Bane, the multipliable component in the numbers I posited is already 2d6+49).

Lance is nice for the first Charge 'cause it's a single hit so it doesn't care overtly much about DR (only 15 as opposed to 15*5) and you get the triple damage. After that tho, Falchion just does so much more damage that I think it's optimal to invest in two separate weapons and leave the overall bonus lower to save on price.

It's worth noting that if you can go first (flying mount or whatever gives you effectively infinite turns of prep time), you don't need more than ~24 Con to survive the first two rounds of his attacks likely (though having the cushion of being able to survive some moments of unluckiness wouldn't hurt either), which frees up some wealth. Though of course, does it matter if you die after killing him when your Rage ends? *shrug*



Tarrasque has terrible move speed. It has 20 move, and 20 reach, so it can only attack you if you're within 60. It also has 30' space.

I'll take a Paladin 20 or less.
With ride-by attack I get to do one attack a round that doesn't provoke an AoO. With horseshoes of speed, I get 80' speed on the horse, or 90' if I use a light warhorse. That's enough move to start outside Ts range, move in, hit it, move past it (and it's 30' size) and be out of range of a charge.
I traverse 160 or 180'; which exceeds the 150' length big T can reach in a round. Then it's just a matter of hurting it which shouldn't be that hard.

A monk 20 can also pull off something similar with spring attack and move enhancers, he just needs to cobble together enough damage, not sure if he can do that though.

Tarrasque can always ready attacks tho. You also have to have a way to give both you and your mount Freedom of Movement or Tarrasque's readied attacks will grapple and break it up. Monk will, of course, never do enough damage. Note that once per minute, the Rush gives him 150' move speed which translates into 300' charge range too.

[zlefin]

huh, I never really notice that rush ability.

Ok new plan, requires one gm allowance.
Take leadership, get 135 Halfling peasants with sling proficiency.
Equip them with flasks of acid; they load acid in slings and all keep firing at big T; acid flasks are touch attacks, so it's a ranged touch attack which will hit often enough. The rules don't specifically allow acid vials in slings, and they're a bit heavier than sling bullets (1lb vs 0.5lb) so their range might be lower, but they should still work and have decent range.
Oddly big T has no acid resist. So a big pile of acid flasks hitting him should be able to take him down. Make sure the peasants are spaced to prevent cleaving if T somehow gets close.


If you want raw silliness and sketchiness, you could get flight and drop a thousand acid flasks on big T. They don't need to hit, just do their 1 point of splash damage.

[Azoth]

Well the enchants average 31.5 damage a swing that hits. So perhaps just grabbing a basic or +2 lance would be worth it for the initial charge. Your 45 to hit shows we sacrifice a little accuracy. If we are crit fishing maybe grabbing the elemental bursts would be worth sacrificing some of the to hit bonus.

[Eldariel]

Well the enchants average 31.5 damage a swing that hits. So perhaps just grabbing a basic or +2 lance would be worth it for the initial charge. Your 45 to hit shows we sacrifice a little accuracy. If we are crit fishing maybe grabbing the elemental bursts would be worth sacrificing some of the to hit bonus.

Unfortunately crit fishing weapons are written so poorly that even with 15-20/x2 crit range, they still are outperformed by having two separate +1d6 abilities. You need 3.0 level crit ranges to make them work at all (Kaorti Resin, Psychic Weapon Master, Disciple of Dispater, etc. - none of which are obviously available).

I'd be inclined to pick up +4 Magical Beast Bane Lance, I guess. Multiplies stuff and penetrates DR which, I guess, is still gonna be about +5 damage pre-multiplication. Of course, the fact that we're using so many Magical Beast Bane items means this build is basically just custom-built to kill the Tarrasque, but c'est la vie. Maybe our sponsors gave us the equipment. If we had access to Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment from CL 20 casters alongside Heroes' Feast & what-have-you, this'd be trivial anyways, so guess it just keeps things interesting.

EDIT: +4 Magical Beast Bane Lance would give us 237 damage on Charge with full Power Attack but that leaves us at mere +29 to hit so there's a 25-30% (depending on Dodge) chance of missing, which would screw everything over. Still, provided that hits, the +5 Magical Beast Bane Vicious Merciful Shocking Frost Falchion would hit for enough damage to drop it in 2 rounds (even post-regeneration).

[Gemini476]

Tarrasque can always ready attacks tho. You also have to have a way to give both you and your mount Freedom of Movement or Tarrasque's readied attacks will grapple and break it up. Monk will, of course, never do enough damage. Note that once per minute, the Rush gives him 150' move speed which translates into 300' charge range too.

What, the Monk won't do enough damage? Size increases from Permanent Enlarge Person + Improved Natural Attack already brings Unarmed Strike damage up to 6d8+STR damage - that's an average of 27 just from dice. You just need to get 14 damage from other sources to get your damage to last - a Permanent Magic Fang (CL 20) and an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 Magical Beast Bane Vicious Frost Flaming gives you (effectively) +7+2d6+2d6+1d6+1d6, or +7+6d6 total. That's 28 damage, adding our average damage/hit up to 55.

We also ignore dr/epic thanks to our Magical Beast Bane giving an effective +2 to enhancement bonus. That's good.

Of course, if we're just doing 55 damage/round that's still pretty pitiful. Even if the Tarrasque would just stand there and take it, it would take 56 rounds to kill it - and that's assuming we hit every hit, and the Rogue has prepared an action to Wish it dead whenever it falls down.
That's five minutes of running and pummeling.

Of course, we won't be hitting every time, will we? It's AC is 35, and we're hitting it with +15+7+Strength. That's a Target Number of 13-STR - at least we won't have to worry about being Shaken, since we aren't sticking close to him, but still. That's a 40% hit rate at 10Str, and we've spent so much money on magic already I'm not sure what we can afford.
I'll check.
Enlarge Person - 10gp
Permanency - 2,950gp
Greater Magic Fang - 600gp
Permanency - 8,050gp
+5 AoMF - 150,000gp

WBL level 20 - 760,000gp

Monk's Belt (Note: Do Not Take Monk 20) - 13,000gp +50% - 19,500gp
Belt of Giant Strength +6 - 36,000gp
Manual of Gainful Exercise +6 - 137,500gp

Total- 219,610gp

Alright, yeah, we can afford +11 to Strength from magic items. Incidentally, the build is not Monk 19/Commoner 1. Because Monk 20 gives -2d8 damage.

So if we just boost Strength to the detriment of everything else, we get:
18+2(half-orc)+2(Large)+5(Levels)+5(Manual)+6(Belt)=38 Strength.

So we now have 6d8+6d6+7+14 damage on each attack, or an average of 69. In addition, we have +36 to-hit and therefore auto-hit the Tarrasque.

Wait, would Spring Attack even work for this? We have enough damage, sure - with 69/round we kill it in 29 turns, or just under three minutes. But won't it be able to charge into range? A speed of 90ft means we can just be 45ft away from it, and it can charge 40ft and get us within it's 20ft reach. (not to mention Rush. Charging 300ft is terrifying.)
Well, at least it's only hitting us once each charge. For an average damage of 43.75 a turn, every turn.

...You know what? If you're Swallowed Whole, he only does 32 damage/turn. And if you get Acid Resistance, that's a whole lot less. And the AC for hitting his guts is 25, low enough that your lowest Flurry iterative automatically hits it. So if you get swallowed, you're suddenly doing 345 damage/round while taking 12 less damage per round. Meanwhile your Rogue friend is trying to keep the Tarrasque from eating the scroll of Wish, but who cares. You have UMD too.
So if you get eaten by the Tarrasque (perhaps get Commoner 1 for the Delicious flaw?), you kill it in three rounds. Turn Ethereal to leave the body and use the scroll.
Be careful what you eat, kids!
...Or at least that's how I think it works. Does it? Who knows. Even if you can't stay in his guts while using Freedom of Movement to not be grappled (and therefore Full Attack), you take less damage inside them than outside them. So try to get eaten by it. Maybe slather yourself in BBQ sauce or something, I don't know.


I'm pretty sure that a core only Monk can kill the Tarrasque, but it'll be a close match and require a whole lot of planning. At worst it's a draw, though, since the Monk can just go Ethereal and run away with his 90ft move speed for 18 turns before he materializes.

[zlefin]

You'd get a 30' move speed bonus from haste, and you could squeeze out another 10' of movement from something. That lets you spring attack from 65' away, so you only need to handle the rush once/minute.
And a core monk could easily beat the tarrasque under normal rules, because he wouldn't be stuck using his melee attack to fight it, he could go ranged; it's only the no ranged rule that makes it hard.


looking up more stuff; vorpal blade has fair odds of taking down a tarrasque, as does a monk's quivering palm ability.

[Coidzor]

Clearly what we need is some kind of distraction.

[Gemini476]

You'd get a 30' move speed bonus from haste, and you could squeeze out another 10' of movement from something. That lets you spring attack from 65' away, so you only need to handle the rush once/minute.
And a core monk could easily beat the tarrasque under normal rules, because he wouldn't be stuck using his melee attack to fight it, he could go ranged; it's only the no ranged rule that makes it hard.


looking up more stuff; vorpal blade has fair odds of taking down a tarrasque, as does a monk's quivering palm ability.

Haste doesn't stack with Fast Movement, Vorpal is a +4 enchantment (doable, but expensive), and Quivering Palm is DC 10+half Monk level(10)+Wis vs. the Tarrasque's Fort save.
Which is +38.

[Irk]

Unfortunately crit fishing weapons are written so poorly that even with 15-20/x2 crit range, they still are outperformed by having two separate +1d6 abilities. You need 3.0 level crit ranges to make them work at all (Kaorti Resin, Psychic Weapon Master, Disciple of Dispater, etc. - none of which are obviously available).

Actually, PWM is 3.5, and the highest 3.5 threat range is 9-20.

[Neknoh]

Clearly what we need is some kind of distraction.

Give me 200 Tindertwigs, a bag of holding, two 10' ladders and a Pony.



EDIT:

Actually....

Give me a Light Warhorse, a 10' ladder, some silk rope to tie the ladder to the saddle, a bag of holding to tie to the other end of the ladder and give me enough acid flasks for the 1 point splash damage from each to do enough damage to fell the big T.

Stuff flasks into bag of holding, keep it open, ride by the Tarrasque on your ladder-horse at full tilt, watch as the acid flasks spill out 10' behind you one by one (or twenty by fiftyfour) as you and your horse stay outside of the splash damage range.

Enough acid flasks should splash the Tarrasque to death should they not?

[Azoth]

What about stacking miss chance? Ring of Blinking, cloak of displacement, and an ever smoking bottle. The first build chassis we saw had 2 unused feats so one could be used for Blind fight to help negate our own misses. Use a reach weapon while enlarged and you have 20ft reach. Enough to avoid the scent ability.

[zlefin]

what idiot made monk's speed boost enhancement? that's stupid, why would they do that? Oh well, looks like I'm misreading too much stuff.
Beating it with lvl 1 commoners is still hilarious though.

[Gemini476]

You know, it does have Int 3...

What are there for good mundane Diplomancer builds? How good can you get within Core?

Half-Elf with Skill Focus and all the Synergies gets up to 23+2(Half-Elf)+6(Synergy)+3(Skill Focus)+2(Masterwork Item)=+36 to Diplomacy. That'll make it instantly Friendly from Hostile with ten minutes work (Helpful on a roll of 14+), or if you speed it up to a standard action it's instantly Indifferent (Friendly on a roll of 9+).

Oh yeah, and Negotiator is core, isn't it? So +2 to that.

And 13 levels of Rogue gives us the ability to take 10 on it, so we get an automatic result of 38 on a standard action. We instantly make anyone Hostile Friendly.

Why kill it when we can befriend it?

[Eldariel]

*snip*

AOMF won't be able to carry weapon enhancements at all, unfortunately; not Core anyways. There's no reason for the Monk to not take Martial Weapon Mastery: Falchion and go from there tho. Monk Unarmed Strikes are trash individually without Polymorph or Greater Mighty Wallop or similar. Either way, it can Rush and then if you try to drive-by it, it'll just move and ready action to attack each turn while waiting for Rush to come off CD.

Either way, 69 damage vs. 40 regeneration is a bit lousy. There's no way this is feasible unless you can attack it without proccing its ready action. Also, while it's possible to kill it from the inside, at least theoretically, it's hard to guarantee it'll just swallow you instead of crunching you in its mouth for a bit. It is significantly more intelligent than most animals, after all. Not the plan I'd feel most comfortable trying since beating the +81 Grapple is kinda hard if it does decide to chew you out.


what idiot made monk's speed boost enhancement? that's stupid, why would they do that? Oh well, looks like I'm misreading too much stuff.
Beating it with lvl 1 commoners is still hilarious though.

It was specifically to make Haste and Monk Speed not stack. Y'see, in 3.5 Haste doubled your speed and Monk Speed was untyped so you had these 300' move speed rocket Monks and someone at WotC decided that had to end so they nerfed both, Haste (deservedly) and Monk speed boost (less so).

[Phelix-Mu]

I think I'm using this stuff, from DMG 76:

Brown Mold (CR 2): Brown mold feeds on warmth, drawing
heat from anything around it. It normally comes in patches 5 feet
in diameter, and the temperature is always cold in a 30-foot radius
around it. Living creatures within 5 feet of it take 3d6 points of
nonlethal cold damage. Fire brought within 5 feet of brown mold
causes it to instantly double in size. Cold damage, such as from a
cone of cold, instantly destroys it.

With its space of 30, it occupies some thirty+ squares. That's 90d6 of nonlethal cold damage per round.

So now I just need a build that supplies me with fire. I think that's handled by items and WBL.

So now, ideally, I need to be immune to the damage, one way or another. Hmm. Actually, a monk with jumplomancy might be able to...naw, dumb idea.

Flight obviously solves the problem, but it's very hard to get that in core mundane. I suppose there is an item, but....

Hmm. A potion of resist energy cold (20) could work. Now I just need to be able to outrun the thing. Sounds like I'm riding a horse or something.

Alright, final build involves levels in class X such that I can ride a horse reliably. The following purchases are needed:

- Dogs/chickens/something small and fast that moves on or close to the ground.
- Potions of resist energy(cold) (20): enough for the animals, the horse, and a couple for myself.
- Rope.
- Torches (maybe invest WBL in a more reliable source of stable fire).
- A horse (maybe buff it's speed with items, potions)

1.) Spread brown mold. These are plants and should be available with an appropriate forage check/Knowledge(nature or dungeoneering). DM fiat applies, but then the tarrasque being there is also DM fiat....

2.) Grow brown mold around tarrasque. I'd do this by leading the growth of the brown mold by dragging a fire source (the torch) on a rope behind the horse. If necessary, use the dogs and chickens to help by tying torches to them as well.

3.) Run around the tarrasque, leading it through areas of brown mold over and over. It's pretty damn stupid and seems motivated to chase food (me). If necessary, get some hirelings on horses as well, also using fire sources to spread the mold.

4.) Rinse and repeat until it falls unconscious.

5.) Get rogue to wish it dead.

Not at all in keeping with the spirit of the challenge, but I think I technically kept to the rules. Note that brown mold is an object, not a creature, so I'm not using a "summoned" creature to defeat Big T.

NOTES after EDIT: This is essentially an ambush type of thing, so the DM could just say the tarrasque doesn't follow me. I have no way of making it do so. Using chickens, I can grow the stuff under the tarrasque, I think.

Please critique. Not terribly familiar with Big T, so I might be overlooking something.

[Dimers]

Two suggestions to add to other posters.

First, it looks like deliberately getting swallowed whole could give you a lot more time to operate than staying in Big T's clawsphere, especially if you have a bit of acid resistance. Being swallowed might also be good for a sneak attack build. EDIT: or a TWF ranger with magical beasts as a focal favored enemy.

Second, how about a lycanthrope? You can get good stat boosts, an extra size category, and DR 10/silver to lessen the damage from every hit. I like a were-[dire badger advanced to 4HD], since that gives Large size and Str+12, Dex+4, Con+12 ... the other benefits are largely useless here, though 5 natural armor doesn't exactly suck. Half-giant might be good as the "humanoid or giant" base creature, to get even larger weapons and a little more Str and Con.

A half-giant were-advanced-dire-badger has LA +4 and four RHD, leaving you with twelve class levels and 16 total HD jam-packed with hit points, plus Huge size weapons without any spellcasting at all ...

[Dr. Cliché]

You are the most elite human (or x core race) of your kind, and you need to defend your city / village / home from this Kaiju that has appeared, with naught more than the gear you have earned from adventuring and the sharpened skills that have earned you your legacy as a Hero.

Have the cities club together and fund some Colossal Armour of the Crab suits for you and your party. :smallbiggrin:

[Fouredged Sword]

I would used Dust of Sneezing and Choking to lock him down for a 5d4 rounds (like he won't pass a DC 15 fort save). He is now stunned for 5d4 rounds.

5 Full round attacks with a brilliant energy valorus lance charge from a whirlpounce barbarian will kill it. 100's of damage in a round, 5 rounds to kill it, minimum.

If that won't work...

Then, while it is stunned, climb into it's stomach. Once inside they activate an immovable rod. Big T can pass the check needed to move it, but is still restricted to 10ft of movement per round, and if he rolls badly (less than 13), he is stuck in place. Use a potion of Dimension Door (trapsmith spellcasting list) to leave.

Now we just need to get past that reach. A nice paladin with a ride by attack horse will work. Use an effigy mount (ax beak preferably, 70ft base move speed).

I think this could be pulled off by a well equipped 6th level warforged barbarian. Trollbane can keep it from regenerating. A brilliant energy Valorous lance will do the killing. You should do 100's of damage each attack on a charge, and you can wait for it to move between attacks to be sure it has no .

[Gemini476]

I would used Dust of Sneezing and Choking to lock him down for a 5d4 rounds (like he won't pass a DC 15 fort save). He is now stunned for 5d4 rounds.

5 Full round attacks with a brilliant energy valorus lance charge from a whirlpounce barbarian will kill it. 100's of damage in a round, 5 rounds to kill it, minimum.

If that won't work...

Then, while it is stunned, climb into it's stomach. Once inside they activate an immovable rod. Big T can pass the check needed to move it, but is still restricted to 10ft of movement per round, and if he rolls badly (less than 13), he is stuck in place. Use a potion of Dimension Door (trapsmith spellcasting list) to leave.

Now we just need to get past that reach. A nice paladin with a ride by attack horse will work. Use an effigy mount (ax beak preferably, 70ft base move speed).

I think this could be pulled off by a well equipped 6th level warforged barbarian. Trollbane can keep it from regenerating. A brilliant energy Valorous lance will do the killing. You should do 100's of damage each attack on a charge, and you can wait for it to move between attacks to be sure it has no .
Core only, man.

Also, the Immovable Rod can only support 8,000lbs. before it fails.
The Tarrasque weighs 260,000lbs.

[Ohiohi]

You know, it does have Int 3...

And 13 levels of Rogue gives us the ability to take 10 on it, so we get an automatic result of 38 on a standard action. We instantly make anyone Hostile Friendly.

Why kill it when we can befriend it?

Yeah, and then with some handle animal checks(and a lot of time) we can get a crazy halfling to ride it and destroy the world :belkar:

[Gemini476]

Two suggestions to add to other posters.

First, it looks like deliberately getting swallowed whole could give you a lot more time to operate than staying in Big T's clawsphere, especially if you have a bit of acid resistance. Being swallowed might also be good for a sneak attack build.

The problem is getting it to swallow you whole, though; the only RAW way I know of to do so is that Commoner Flaw that makes you delicious and count as one size smaller for Swallow Whole, but that's outside Core.
Weresheep is still a great flaw, though.

But yeah. I know of ways to make it stop eating you (ipecac), but not any way to make it start doing so.


As an aside, regarding Monk unarmed damage: While you lose out on 6d6+2 (23) damage if the Amulet of Mighty Fists cannot have weapon properties, you also no longer bypass DR/epic and therefore do 15 less damage per attack. That makes me sad, so you can toss on Were-camel with a Monk's Belt to get +2d8+4 (13) damage. It doesn't make up for everything, and you lose some things like Etherealness and Tongue of the Sun and Moon (wait, we can speak with the Tarrasque?).
So that's an effective -25 to damage/attack compared to previously, bringing it down to 44 damage/attack. Since that would take ages to bring down the Tarrasque with, we need to start Flurrying.

We only have BAB+18(Str)+5(Enhancement)-2(Size)=+36/+36/+36/+31/+26. Compared to the Tarrasque's AC, that's 95%/95%/95%/80%/55%.
I'm just quickly going to compare some stats.
Assuming that the Tarrasque is a drooling idiot that won't use AoOs against chargers, and just stands there drooling while Monks beat at it:
Were-camel, turn one:
44 damage, 4 stays
Were-Camel, turn two+
44/44/44/37.4/26.4 = 195.8 damage, 155.8 stays
Turns to kill: 7

Were-Leopard (-2d8-1(-10) damage, +Pounce)
Turn 1 Charge
34/34/34/32.3/23.8 = 158.1 damage, 118.1 stays
Turn 2+
34/34/34/29.9/20.4 = 152.3 damage, 112.3 stays
Turns to kill: 8

Clearly the Camel is superior.

However, this build only has 8+14d8+3d8+18*Con in HP, with were-camel giving +4 Con (so, if we focus only on Con and Str, Con is probably around +5 in a 28pb game.)
With 20Con, that's just 174hp. The Tarrasque eats through that in rounds.

I'm not entirely sure how to make a core-only monk viable in this fight anymore. Without resorting to ranged attacks, that is.

[Dr. Cliché]

The problem is getting it to swallow you whole, though; the only RAW way I know of to do so is that Commoner Flaw that makes you delicious and count as one size smaller for Swallow Whole, but that's outside Core.
Weresheep is still a great flaw, though.


Where's that flaw from?

[Fouredged Sword]

Dust of sneezing is core. Charging with a lance is core. The rod is not using the support section of the rules. If Big T where airborn, yes, but the rod isn't supporting him, just slowing his movement, meaning he has to drag it at 10ft a round movement.

Really, you want a character who does not have to breathe (vampire maybe) who can charge on a horse (anyone with ranks in ride) and a wield a lance (martial weapon prof).

Therefore I suggest a vampire barbarian with a skeletal horse mount.

Worst comes to worst, he gasses you and you float away to your coffin. It's not like he can KILL you.

[Kaveman26]

A ride by attack lancer with freedom of movement can do this.

An acid resisted swallowed twf can do this.

Dip couple paladin levels for immunity to fear effect, and use a stone horse for a mount that won't panic.

It would be a highly specialized and narrowly focused character but definitely viable.

[Gemini476]

Where's that flaw from?
An April Fools issue of Dragon. The same article as Chicken-Infested, Corpse, the one where you need to carry a big pig or Orcus flays you alive, and the one where you have a stupid ashenk da nuun oonurstarhns. And some more. The best one, mechanically, are Chicken-Infested and Were-Sheep. Were-Sheep is one of the few ways to "draw aggro" in 3.5, IIRC.


Dust of sneezing is core. Charging with a lance is core. The rod is not using the support section of the rules. If Big T where airborn, yes, but the rod isn't supporting him, just slowing his movement, meaning he has to drag it at 10ft a round movement.
He can drop prone as a free action, thus freeing him from the Rod. Alternatively, he could Rush and let his Regeneration sort it out.
There are ways around it, basically.

As for my comment on Core, that was mostly because of WhirlPounceBarian and Valorous and Effigies and warforged and trollbane.

[Fouredged Sword]

He has an int of 3. 3.

Besides, the dust alone is enough to keep him stunned for long enough to kill him. Just keep applying on the 6th turn. They are 2400gp a pop, so invest in 10 of them, that is 50 rounds of stun, minimum. That is enough to back away and charge, 25 times, or ride by attack 50 times.

So he heals 40 per turn, and the DR is 15/epic. With a briliant energy lance you are looking at a 1 AC vs a stunned big T. You can't miss except on a 1.

Str 26 two handed (+10), charging (+2), power attack 20 two handed (+40), weapon base (1) damage. - 53

lance - X2, Spirited charge, X3

You are dealing a minimum of 159 damage a hit, and are hitting most rounds. You out damage his healing by a factor of 3. You may charge back and forth, hitting the stunned Big T until he hits negative HP. At that point you dump a black pudding on it to keep it down and push the beast into a stone hole to keep it touching the pudding.

[Gemini476]

He has an int of 3. 3.

Besides, the dust alone is enough to keep him stunned for long enough to kill him. Just keep applying on the 6th turn. They are 2400gp a pop, so invest in 10 of them, that is 50 rounds of stun, minimum. That is enough to back away and charge, 25 times, or ride by attack 50 times.

So he heals 40 per turn, and the DR is 15/epic. With a briliant energy lance you are looking at a 1 AC vs a stunned big T. You can't miss except on a 1.

Str 26 two handed (+10), charging (+2), power attack 20 two handed (+40), weapon base (1) damage. - 53

lance - X2, Spirited charge, X3

You are dealing a minimum of 159 damage a hit, and are hitting most rounds. You out damage his healing by a factor of 3. You may charge back and forth, hitting the stunned Big T until he hits negative HP. At that point you dump a black pudding on it to keep it down and push the beast into a stone hole to keep it touching the pudding.

...What's the black pudding for, by the way? It does an average of 18 damage (29 for the Elder one), is likely hostile to you, does not get through DR/epic, is waay larger than you, and auto-fails grappling the Tarrasque. (+81 Grapple mod is scary.)

Also, using the Dust of Sneezing and Choking a)means that you need to be within 20ft of the Tarrasque, b)requires you to be immune to being stunned (or fail the saves and take 3d6 Con damage), and c) requires the Tarrasque to not just intentionally fail the save and tank the hit with his 36 Con.

I'll give you that you'll do a lot of damage with a charge, though. That requires you not to be hit by an AoO as you pass through the 20ft reach, however.


...Also, the Tarrasque is immune to ability damage. So SoDaC won't work for more than seasoning. Sorry.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, going back through my idea and actualy applying stats and a full build.

The build is Vampire Orc Barbarian 12
Feats
Power attack
Mounted Combat
Ride By attack
Spirited Charge

Wealth - 760,000gp per 20th level wealth per level.

Stats (only str matters)
Str 28 (+6 str item) - 34 (+12) 36000gp

Mount - Skeletal Horse

Walk to just outside the reach of Big T (move action)
Open a bag of Dust of Sneezing.
19 out of 20 times, Big T is now stunned for 5d4 rounds. - Deliberately failing saves isn't a thing. The rules don't allow for it unless an effect is labled harmless.

Ride by attack and hit him with your brilliant energy lance holding it two handed. You hit 19 out of 20 times, and deal (1d8 + 46)*3 damage. (minimum 141 damage - 15 DR - 126 damage a hit.)

After three passes, you stop and dust big T again.

You deal enough damage that you can drive him into negative HP in 5-6 dust uses.

Once he hits negative HP, you hit him 20 more times to keep him down for 40 rounds. You grapple him, Pin him (he is unconscious, so no resisted check) and drain his blood until his constitution hits 0.

Once there, he will be unconscious until the next day. Push him into a lake and he will be unconscious until he is pulled from the water due to suffocation.

IF big T fails his fort save on a nat 1, he hits you, driving you to negative HP almost immediately, but you are a vampire, so you just gaseous form back to your coffin and try again the next night.

There, a level 20 character CAN beat big T without the use of spellcasting.

Cost -
1 +5 weapon 50000 gp
30 bags of dust of sneezing - 72000 gp

- 122000 gp, so a fraction of your wealth.

[Gemini476]

Walk to just outside the reach of Big T (move action)
Open a bag of Dust of Sneezing.
19 out of 20 times, Big T is now stunned for 5d4 rounds. - Deliberately failing saves isn't a thing. The rules don't allow for it unless an effect is labled harmless.

*Cough*

VOLUNTARILY FAILING

A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a consequence.
*Sneeze*

[Fouredged Sword]

The compendiums are not core.

[Phelix-Mu]

Did no one like my idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16753661&postcount=29)? Or are we really determined to kill it in fisticuffs....

I'm mostly just interested if brown mold actually works. It's kind of like luring the thing into a canyon that's downstream of a dam and then drowning the guy, but, eh, I'm partial to environmental hazards. And my build is quite flexible, only needing WBL, Ride, and some Survival or Knowledge something to find brown mold.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, and then with some handle animal checks(and a lot of time) we can get a crazy halfling to ride it and destroy the world :belkar:

Actually, I can't remember if that's core or not, but there is a build that kills the Tarrasque by riding it until it knocks itself out.

Edit: It may make use of aspects of the Killer Gnome in order to get on in the first place. :smallconfused:


Give me 200 Tindertwigs, a bag of holding, two 10' ladders and a Pony.

Heh. :smallamused:


EDIT:

Actually....

Give me a Light Warhorse, a 10' ladder, some silk rope to tie the ladder to the saddle, a bag of holding to tie to the other end of the ladder and give me enough acid flasks for the 1 point splash damage from each to do enough damage to fell the big T.

Stuff flasks into bag of holding, keep it open, ride by the Tarrasque on your ladder-horse at full tilt, watch as the acid flasks spill out 10' behind you one by one (or twenty by fiftyfour) as you and your horse stay outside of the splash damage range.

Enough acid flasks should splash the Tarrasque to death should they not?

You'd have to get 41 acid flasks to damage it each round, minimum, then, as nothing bypasses the Tarrasque's Regeneration.


Therefore I suggest a vampire barbarian with a skeletal horse mount.

Worst comes to worst, he gasses you and you float away to your coffin. It's not like he can KILL you.

Too bad you can't use gaseous form to somehow get in Big T's belly...