Need a bit of help with a Daring Outlaw build. 3.5, and with Psionics.

[Metahuman1]

So, I about to apply to a game and break one of my own rules of not wanting to apply to games were Tome of Battle is not welcome.

It's Forgotten Realms setting and here are the character creation rules and allowed sources.

Levels: All characters start at level 9.
Races and Level Adjustments: I'll allow up to a +2LA (+4 if you have racial HD). You may buy off Level Adjustment using the rules in Unearthed Arcana. Any race may be used from any valid source.
Abilities: 4d6v1, 36 Point Buy for unhappy rolls, Reroll if Sum of Mods is +3 or less, or if there are no scores are 16 or above.
Alignment: Any alignment is fine, but write them up well. Please no evil for evil's sake. If you're evil, there better be a good reason.
Hit Points: Max + Con for first 4 levels, then roll as normal for every level beyond, No rerolls for HP. If you roll a 1, you roll a 1
Starting Wealth: Standard Wealth By Level. If you buy off a level adjustment, then use your ECL AFTER the buyoff to determine starting wealth.
Flaws & Traits: You may have 1 Trait (Unearthed Arcana only). You may elect to have 1 Flaw (Unearthed Arcana only). Flaws must have a mechanical impact upon your character (No non-Combative for casters)

Valid Source Material: Core, Any Complete, Expanded Psionics, Tome of Magic, Magic of Incarnum, Planar Handbook, PHB2, MM2-4, Any Forgotten Realms, Sandstorm, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, Unearthed Arcana, Heroes of Horror, Libris Mortis, Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, Races of Destiny, Races of the Wild, Races of the Dragon, Races of Stone, Miniatures Handbook, and Dungeonscape.

Now, here's were I start needing help.

After bounding a couple of build ideas back and forth trying to find one that would be fun for me and not absolutely break the game or require material not from a listed sorce, which actually proved trickier then it sounds, We came up with this idea for a rough build out.

Rouge 1/ Swashbuckler 6/ Psi-warrior 2.

With the following rulings form the DM:

1: I can use the Psi-Warrior stuff in this web enhancement form Wizards of the Coast.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a

2: For 2 levels of Psi-warrior, I can take both of them.

3: I can use Linked power to duplicate the relevant powers twice. The relevant powers are called weapon with the soul bound weapon AFC applied to it, and Dimension Door form the Freedom Mantle I'm gonna snag with Mantled Warrior.

4: If I buy a stack of 50 +1 Manifester Shurikens, I can use them while wielding my weapons for TWF to get +5 PP per shuriken. I cannot use them as one big 250PP pool, but that still means I can fuel Dimension Door with them easily.

The game plan here is to set up flanking, Dimension Door into range, take out a full attack with sneak attack and Int mod to damage per hit and penetrating strike to help offset immunity problems, and then the linked power second hit of Dimension Door will kick in and I use it to get out before the thing I just attacked and it's friends can get a shot off. The DM thinks this idea is REALLY COOL, and so do I. I'm gonna buy-pass the cost of paying for two weapons with the other AFC and by augmenting a follow up of Metaphyisical weapon on them, and thus keeping them relevant.

And that's were we've hit a snag. I need a way to boost up my PP Pool, and my Manifester level, up to 20, artificially, so that I can regularly manifest the necessary Soulbound Weapon and Metaphysical weapon powers to make the weapons as potent as they should be for the level the game is at. And it needs to come from any combo of things found in the approved sources.

Lastly, I need the feat slots left open after this is done to snag the following.

Jack of All Trades OR Able Learner

Daring Outlaw

TWF, and if at all possible Improved TWF.

Much Thanks!!!

[Snowbluff]

Why not Psychic Rogue/Swashbuckler? Is 2 weapons going to cost that much? Expanded Knowledge could help. Practiced Manifester would give you 4 more ML.

Psychic Rogue gives psionics, and is a rogue. I think you'd have to ask your DM. Or you could do a psionic assassin, but those aren't as good...

Aso for your concept, you actually want Shadow Pounce. Crinti Shadow Marauder or Shadow Lord are considered the good Nightcrawler type classes, and they let your full attack after teleporting.

[Urpriest]

You definitely don't have enough Psychic Warrior for Dimension Door.

[Snowbluff]

You definitely don't have enough Psychic Warrior for Dimension Door.

Looking through this, Assassin sounds perfect. GMW and D Door. Done XD

[Urpriest]

Looking through this, Assassin sounds perfect. GMW and D Door. Done XD

No Linked Power is kind of annoying in that setup, though. Maybe Psychic Assassin would be preferable.

[Eldaran]

4: If I buy a stack of 50 +1 Manifester Shurikens, I can use them while wielding my weapons for TWF to get +5 PP per shuriken. I cannot use them as one big 250PP pool, but that still means I can fuel Dimension Door with them easily.

Psionic Dimension Door is 7 power points, you can't spend power points from multiple sources at once, so you can't use those shurikens for it.

[Metahuman1]

Actually, the DM just ruled a few moments ago that for this if I take Psi-rogue and Daring Outlaw, he'd let them stack with Psi-warrior to get me the Mantled Warrior and Soulbound weapon ability's. Cause like I said, he really likes this character idea. And, if I can get the points squared away, I get to skip the GP cost of trying to keep two weapons up to relevant levels of power.

Soooo, after some number crunching, I'm looking at just needing to get my total starting PP up enough that I can afford the cost of double manifesting the weapons, double manifesting Metaphyiscal weapon, and then starting the chain reaction of the Incarnum recharge trick at the end of the combat so that I'll have the PP and a Readied action to set that chain off again at the start of the next fight.

I've got it almost worked out, but I can't seem to find synchronicity anywhere to look up it's Power Point cost. Anyone know what the PP cost is/where to find the power so I can take a look?

Edit: Multiple replies while I was typing mine.

Freedom Mantle doesn't give you a 1 PP Dimension Door as a swift action? I could SWEAR i read it doing that somewhere.

And the point of the Psi-warrior levels is magic weapons, two of them, that stay relevant with out double the cost of the Barbarians great ax being applied, and at the same time getting me the afore mentioned freedom mantle through Mantled Warrior.

And that these be spammable tricks that would work all day long once I did the track work to set them up.

[Snowbluff]

Actually, the DM just ruled a few moments ago that for this if I take Psi-rogue and Daring Outlaw, he'd let them stack with Psi-warrior to get me the Mantled Warrior and Soulbound weapon ability's. Cause like I said, he really likes this character idea. And, if I can get the points squared away, I get to skip the GP cost of trying to keep two weapons up to relevant levels of power.


PsyRogue works because the Dm likes this. Called it! >:D

:smalltongue:

Anyway, I think you mean Dimension Hop. :smallsmile:

[Kennisiou]

What is Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 6 getting you that Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3 won't? Because that division of levels gets you more skillpoints, penetrating strike, evasion, and a whole host of other potential nice goodies at level 4, while those 3 swashbuckler levels are currently just getting you more health. If you were hoping to get acrobatic charge at 7 then I understand where you're coming from but it's generally not worth the 3 blank levels to build to. You'd probably be better off taking those three rogue levels and nabbing some magic items and/or feats that give you better mobility (like travel devotion or chronocharm).

[Metahuman1]

PsyRogue works because the Dm likes this. Called it! >:D

:smalltongue:

Anyway, I think you mean Dimension Hop. :smallsmile:

This entire build works mostly cause the DM likes it and really wants me to be able to make it work so he's willing to bend rules/rule things in my favor/let things slide.

And where can I find the Dimension Hop Psionic Power?


Kennisiou: BAB and HP actually. Though if I come out with the same BAB at rouge 4 Swash 3 Psi-warrior 2 that I would at Rogue 1 Swash 6 Psi-warrior 2, I might just go that route.




But yeah, right now, I need to know were I can have another look see at the Freedom Mantle Ability, and this Psi-power Dimension Hop. And I need a look at Symchronicity. So, if anyone has links to them on web articals/SRD or can tell me a book and page number, that would be really great.

[Urpriest]

This entire build works mostly cause the DM likes it and really wants me to be able to make it work so he's willing to bend rules/rule things in my favor/let things slide.

And where can I find the Dimension Hop Psionic Power?


Kennisiou: BAB and HP actually. Though if I come out with the same BAB at rouge 4 Swash 3 Psi-warrior 2 that I would at Rogue 1 Swash 6 Psi-warrior 2, I might just go that route.




But yeah, right now, I need to know were I can have another look see at the Freedom Mantle Ability, and this Psi-power Dimension Hop. And I need a look at Symchronicity. So, if anyone has links to them on web articals/SRD or can tell me a book and page number, that would be really great.

The Freedom Mantle, Dimension Hop, and Synchronicity are all in Complete Psionic.

[Metahuman1]

Alright, I don't have that one were I can lay hands on it right this second, need to check it out when I get home tonight.

So, another question, if I go rogue 4, does anyone have a good AFC they can recommend to loose Trap sense for? I'm not especially well versed in Rogue AFC's but I know Trap sense is garbage so I figured I'd ask if there's at least a marginally better option in any of the listed available sources.

[Snowbluff]

Spell Sense. Gives an AC bonus versus spells. I like Spell Reflection as well. Both are in the Complete Mage.

[Urpriest]

IIRC, Lightbringer Penetrating Strike replaces Trap Sense. But I may be misremembering.

[Metahuman1]

Where is Lightbringer penetrating strike found?

[Snowbluff]

Where is Lightbringer penetrating strike found?
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Looks like it'd be handy, but I don't like the wording.

[Metahuman1]

I'm afraid I don't have that supplement, so, can't look at the wording. Which isn't a big deal, since I'd need it to be on the approved list to use it and I'm pretty sure Ravenloft isn't.

[Kennisiou]

Penetrating Strike from dungeonscape > Trapsense. You do half dice sneak attack damage instead of full dice whenever you sneak attack.

You can also choose to ditch Uncanny Dodge for Disruptive Attack, which I've heard good things about on TWF rogue builds. It allows you to get in one attack, forego the sneak attack damage, and give them -5 AC, which (ideally) lets you hit significantly more attacks than you would otherwise giving you more damage overall.

But yeah, swashbuckler 6 is generally a bad idea unless it's a precursor to swashbuckler 7, and even then it's not a great one (usually only recommended to go this deep if you're going full DA, where Rogue 4/Swash 16 is done, but I'm personally not a fan of that in favor of just Rogue 4/Swash 3/ToB class or Prestige classes 13). Rogue 4 is also generally the "sweet spot" for daring outlaw builds since you can go that far beyond Rogue 1 without losing any more BaB.

[classy one]

You can increase ML by taking more levels in PW, using over channel or wild surge and practised manifester. That's all. You could decrease the cost of your powers in several ways to make you power effectively act as if they were higher ML.

Why dimensional door when you could take dimensional hop instead? It's only one PP, is a swift action and scales with ML. Much better for your purposes.

[Metahuman1]

If I had access to Tome of Battle Classes, I wouldn't be here, I'd have build a Tome of Battle Build and had done with it.

Now, that said, I think I'll go Rogue 4/ Swash 3/ Psi-warrior 2/ Swash rest of the way. Skills are great and all, but I need the HP and BAB.

And what book is Disruptive Attack found in?


And yes, apparently, the First Level Freedom Mantle power was Dimension Hop, not Dimension Door, so that's the one I'm working off of.

And Manifester levels kinda been taken care of. What I need now is to increase my PP total a bit more to make sure that I've got enough to do the following.

Conjure 2 Augmented call weapons using Soulbound Weapon AFC.

Conjure 2 hits of Metaphysical weapon.

Do this with Linked power to trigger them all as one action to create the effect of "The weapons appear and there ready to go and that's it."

Have sufficient recharge points after this is done to preform Incarnum Recharge trick on myself after the fight so that I'll have enough PP to do it again next encounter.

That's it. That's what I need to work out is how many PP do I need in total of that to happen. Then it's just a matter of setting everything down on the sheet.

[Urpriest]

How are you getting around the Manifester Level issues?

Anyway, Call Weaponry costs 1 power point without augmentation, with 4 points per +1. Metaphysical Weapon gives +1 for 1 power point, for an additional +1 per 4 power points. Dimension Hop is at least 1 power point.

Now, I'm not sure I understand how your Linked Power houserule works, or what precisely your plan is.

Let's assume that your plan/houserule boil down to the following: you want to manifest Call Weaponry, which you use Linked Power to link to Call Weaponry and two copies of Metaphysical Weapon (since you can link more than one thing due to your houserule, if I'm understanding it right). The first Call Weaponry goes off in the first round, and all the other powers go off in the second round.

At minimum, this takes 4 pp, requiring ML 4. That gives you two +1 weapons. For two +2 weapons, you spend 8 more pp, for 12 total, requiring ML 12. For two +3 weapons, you need ML 20, and you're spending 20 pp.

Now, just in terms of getting the pp for this, you're not so screwed. Kalashtar race is the easiest way to do this, but it's not in your allowed sources. Just having a high Wis and a high ML will help, though. If you've actually got ML 4, Wis 14 gives you 4 bonus pp, which would be enough depending on how many pp your recharge trick takes. Similarly, Wis 14 is enough to give you 12 pp at ML 12, and 20 pp at ML 20. Boost your Wis or ML more and you get more pp.

What I'm wondering, though, is how you're getting the ML. Practiced Manifester only boost you by four, Overchannel by 3, the Orange Ioun Stone by 1. How are you planning to bypass the ML issue.

[Kennisiou]

Disruptive Attack is PHB II, sorry for not saying earlier.

Also, I feel like you probably want to consider Rogue4/Swash3/Psiwar4/swashX? I feel like you'll appreciate the additional PP and manifester levels a lot more than the one extra sneak attack die, the extra HP, and acrobatic skill mastery and weakening critical (acrobatic skill mastery's kinda cool, weakening critical just sucks, though).

[Metahuman1]

The DM ruled that if I used the Psy-rogue variant, which he suggested, he would have it stack with Psy-warrior for PP/Manifester level/Power Progression.

And if I took Daring Outlaw, which I was gonna do anyway, it would cause Swashbuckler to also stack.

And since I have no real plan to go outside those three classes for this build, it means I get my manifester level improved at every level. So i'm coming in a level 9, and will be a 9th level manifester out of the box. He was willing to do this cause he understands that Psionics does 2 things in this build, which are make TWF more viable/less sucky by saving me the money so that I can spend it on other things melee/none full casters need, and gives me a neat swift action movement trick that allows me to close and full attack and move away again with out the words spirit lion totem barbarian or Travel Devotion coming into play, and using a teleport effect. He though the package was really cool and given that that's all Psionics is doing and that Daring outlaw builds are traditionally not considered power houses or game breakers, and I was trying to make a character that could be mostly martial and keep up with ToB with out using Tome of Battle, he'd try to work with me to get it to hold water.

And, doesn't linked power double the total cost of the PP as a consequence of using it? That's been the stumbling block I've been hitting at this phase. If it doesn't do that, if it just requires that I pay the cost of the 2 powers and burn a feat slot, that would help quite a bit indeed.



And I think I will snag disruptive attack. Doesn't Swash get Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge on it's own anyway? (Away from books at the moment so I couldn't tell you. )

As for the Psi-warrior levels, thanks but I don't think I'll need them since as I explained above, it's been ruled by the DM that as long as I pay the variant and feat tax that I was likely gonna pay anyway, he'd help me out by letting Manifester levels and PP advance on Swashbuckler.

[Kennisiou]

Swash doesn't get uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, evasion, or improved evasion. Or mettle. In spite of the fact that those abilities would be thematically appropriate for him.

Edit: but he does get slippery mind at the same level full casters get level 9 spells, so there's that!

[Metahuman1]

Huh, interesting. Never looked at the class so I figured they at least got Uncanny dodge. Oh well, Uncanny Dodge is nice and all, but Inflicting a -5 to AC at the start of every full attack routine sounds like a better option, particularly if it's a penalty readily stacked with the one's other characters in the party are likely to induce.

[Kennisiou]

The good news is its an untyped bonus, so it stacks with everything but itself! the bad news is that if you're using psirogue, they don't actually get those class features at those levels. In fact, psirogue never actually gets trapsense, meaning it never actually qualifies for penetrating strike. Uncanny Dodge is part of the psirogue's danger sense and they only get it at 7th level.

But if DM fiat is already going on, you can talk to him about changing the psirogue around a bit to get it a little stronger, since while it's not a super weak class it's got room to get stronger without becoming broken, and allowing it to have penetrating strike and disruptive attack is far from making it overpowered.

[Metahuman1]

I think I'll do that once I get my PP situation cleared up. As I said, right now the big thing I need someone to clarify for me is, does linked power require you to pay the total cost of the 2 powers you linked together with it a second time, or does it just require you to take the feat linked power and pay the cost of the 2 powers and be done with it?

If it's the former, then yeah, gotta juice my PP. If it's the latter, I think I might be ok with just my levels, the DM's rulings, and a 14 or so in Wis.

Edit: Right, so, a friend of mine IRL answered that question, and it's a good news/bad news kinda deal.

Good news is that I should be able to keep the weapon up to relevant levels of bonuses and do my linked trick to get it to all come online at once at the start of the fight with very little PP investment beyond what I get out of the box, to use a turn of phrase.

The bad news, is that I'm breaking manifester level caps on PP spent to augment, by 1 on the manifestation of Metaphysical Weapon, and by 5 on the manifestation of the Soulbound Called Weapon.

So, the PP headache is over, now I need a cheap way to boost my manifester level past my character level by about 1. I can nerf the bonuses for a couple of level's to let my manifester level increase of it's own accord. But I need to be able to drop that +3 to hit/damage flat bonus on the weapons.

So, cheapest way to add +1 manifester level within the allowed sources?