overlooked the Duskblade

[JungleChicken]

Somehow I have never noticed the Duskblade. I was giving it a look and saw people talking about how Knowledge devotion was a must have for this class.

Not only are there greatly varying interpretations of that feat but the Duskblade isn't exactly an Int heavy class. So what makes it so useful for this class exactly?

[Snowbluff]

They get Knowledge skills and can't tank int, which is enough. Personally, I don't like giving every DB it, since it also costs a bunch of skill points. However, DBs are heavy Power Attack users, and thus need high bonuses to attack. Knowledge Devotion an give a nice bonus to it.

[JungleChicken]

Everybody tells me 14-15 int is the max you need or want for a duskblade. Any more than that is a waste

[Snowbluff]

Mhm. It's because their spellcasting stat is int, but they don't have many spells that have saves. The int helps with skill points as well, so you can have about 4 relevant in skills (Local, Religion, Arcane, and Planes are common).

[nedz]

Knowledge devotion is a fashionable feat. It's also quite a good one, if you have 8 skill points to burn on the 6 relevant knowledge skills plus Collector of Stories. If the knowledge skills are cross class then it will cost more skill points, and having some Int will help.

[yougi]

Even with Int 14, and a small investment of 12 skill points (5 in one of the 6 monster-identifying skills, and 1 in the others, plus Collector of Stories), you still have, on average, +1.8 to hit and damage against ALL creatures, and +2.3 against those related to the one skill you boosted. It's quite a substantial boost.

That being said, Duskblade is indeed awesome. At low levels and without high levels of optimization, only initiators come close to his damage output in most groups.

[JungleChicken]

Even with Int 14, and a small investment of 12 skill points (5 in one of the 6 monster-identifying skills, and 1 in the others, plus Collector of Stories), you still have, on average, +1.8 to hit and damage against ALL creatures, and +2.3 against those related to the one skill you boosted. It's quite a substantial boost.

That being said, Duskblade is indeed awesome. At low levels and without high levels of optimization, only initiators come close to his damage output in most groups.


Nobody has ever mentioned the collector of stories..That makes much more sense with the knowledge devotion

[Vanitas]

Nobody has ever mentioned the collector of stories..That makes much more sense with the knowledge devotion

That's probably because it doesn't work.
RAW, a knowledge check to identify a creature's abilities is one thing (that is what Collector of Stories helps with). The Knowledge Devotion check is a separate Knowledge check.
Getting both folded in a single roll is a very common (and very reasonable) houserule, but it is a houserule nonetheless.

[Thanatosia]

RAW, a knowledge check to identify a creature's abilities is one thing (that is what Collector of Stories helps with). The Knowledge Devotion check is a separate Knowledge check.
I"d say thats a very tenuous and debatable interpretation of Knowledge Devotion.

Knowledge Devotion reads:

Whenever you fight a creature, you can make a Knowledge check based on its type, as described on page 78 of the Player's Handbook, provided that you have at least one rank in the appropriate Knowledge skill.
I interpret that as meaning
"the check is the same check described on page 78"'
you are interpreting it as
"a check that is just like the one described on page 78 but seperate"
even though there is no phrasing to suggest 2 seperate rolls.

I can kind of see how you *Can* interpret it as 2 seperate rolls, but it feels far more the less likely interpretation then 'make the check as described on 78' IS just the check described on 78 rather then 'cloning' the check mechanic. I honestly dont think it's a house rule to make them one check by RAW (But loosely worded sufficiently that I can follow a reasonable logic to your interpretation too, but it feels less likely to me).

[Gwendol]

That's probably because it doesn't work.
RAW, a knowledge check to identify a creature's abilities is one thing (that is what Collector of Stories helps with). The Knowledge Devotion check is a separate Knowledge check.
Getting both folded in a single roll is a very common (and very reasonable) houserule, but it is a houserule nonetheless.

I would certainly debate that this is a separate roll from the usual monster ID knowledge check. Where did you get that from?

[yougi]

I'd back up Thanatosia in saying that I read it as RAW, although I can see where you're coming from.

That being said, even without CoS, Knowledge Devotion without continued investment is still a surefire +1 to attack and damage, and therefore far from bad. Plus, a lot of people get it from a dip in Cleric, in which case it's free.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, there is the book that grants +5 to knowledge checks as a standard action(if you have ranks). It is a great boost if you have no bard as it provides the ability to make a +5 knowledge check on an untrained knowledge in 10 min (great for the obscure knowledge skill, just hand to the cleric and let him guidance of the avatar himself a +25 knowledge check without any ranks)

That and the duskblade doesn't have that many uses for his skill points, so the cost of spending a few each level isn't that bad. Really, you are looking at 2+int or 3+int for human, so 5-6 points per level. That is plenty for concentration + 4-5 knowledges maxed out.

Really, the only other great skill on your list is sense motive and spellcraft, and you dump wis. If there is another character with spellcraft in the party, you are better off letting them take that one.

After 10 ranks even concentration can be left as is.

The other train of thought is that a duskblade just needs a 11 starting int. You need str, dex, and con more, and int can get to 15 with a +4 item. If one does that, then knowledge devotion becomes less useful.

[JungleChicken]

Looks like the DM would interpret that knowledge devotion just modifies and add to the regular skill check, not being a second check to activate the KD bonus, therefore he would allow them to stack. He thinks the 2 rolls for a knowledge check makes little thematic sense

Now it's just too bad that the party is planned to start at lvl 4, Guess CoS will be my first planned feat for the future

[Fouredged Sword]

Collector of stories is a skill trick. Check complete scoundrel for more info, but it can be gained at any level and cost a mere 2 skillpoints.

Hey look, a wizard article explaining them

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=5

[Vanitas]

Collector of stories is a skill trick. Check complete scoundrel for more info, but it can be gained at any level and cost a mere 2 skillpoints.

Hey look, a wizard article explaining them

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=5

He can't get it at level 4 anyway, it requires 5 ranks in Knowledge

[Metahuman1]

What would be really cool on a Duskblade would be to use feats and an affiliation benfit or two and dump Con, Dex, Wis and if you wanted to be really through Cha, leaving you a melee that only needs two stats but is still intended to be a solid melee.

[Zetapup]

He can't get it at level 4 anyway, it requires 5 ranks in Knowledge

If this is 3.5, then the maximum ranks one can have in a skill is (level +3), e.g. 4 ranks at 1st level, 5 ranks at 2nd level, so on and so forth. Therefore, one could easily get CoS before 4 th level. You might be thinking of Pathfinder, where the max skill ranks is equal to the level?

[Dread_Head]

He can't get it at level 4 anyway, it requires 5 ranks in Knowledge

It's quite possible to have 5 ranks in a knowledge at level 4, max ranks being level +3. It wil eat up quite a few ranks but your going to be putting them in to get Knowledge Devotion anyway, probably at 3rd level.

Edit: Ninja'd

[JungleChicken]

It's quite possible to have 5 ranks in a knowledge at level 4, max ranks being level +3. It wil eat up quite a few ranks but your going to be putting them in to get Knowledge Devotion anyway, probably at 3rd level.

Edit: Ninja'd


Indeed. Knowledge Devotion i think would be a better choice first since it's at least a +1 even with a crappy roll

[JungleChicken]

Here is another question.
So, I am told, the Duskblade is a heavy user of power attack and a melee heavy class. I assume that the channeled spell would shar the attack roll for crits (I'm assuming the spell crits as well anyway) so would a 2 handed sword/weapon be better since the power attack modifier would give a higher damage output consistently or a weapon with a wide crit range?

[nedz]

Yes.

Also Arcane Strike at 9th is quite a common feat choice.

[DarkSonic1337]

Here is another question.
So, I am told, the Duskblade is a heavy user of power attack and a melee heavy class. I assume that the channeled spell would shar the attack roll for crits (I'm assuming the spell crits as well anyway) so would a 2 handed sword/weapon be better since the power attack modifier would give a higher damage output consistently or a weapon with a wide crit range?

Unfortunately, because the spell is resolved AFTER the attack is resolved, it does not critical whenever the weapon criticals.

In addition, because there is no attack roll for the spell, it cannot even critical on a natural 20 with the weapon hit. In a sense, Arcane Channeling functions much like spellstoring (the Magus in Pathfinder explicitly allows you to critical with the spell if you critical with the weapon, so maybe ask your DM to houserule it as such?)

As is you want a two handed weapon (possibly with reach. Spiked Chains are pretty good especially when you get full attack channeling). Duskblades are good users of both knowledge devotion and Arcane Strike, on top of full bab, so you can easily generate the to-hit bonuses to make power attack really scary.

[JungleChicken]

Unfortunately, because the spell is resolved AFTER the attack is resolved, it does not critical whenever the weapon criticals.

In addition, because there is no attack roll for the spell, it cannot even critical on a natural 20 with the weapon hit. In a sense, Arcane Channeling functions much like spellstoring (the Magus in Pathfinder explicitly allows you to critical with the spell if you critical with the weapon, so maybe ask your DM to houserule it as such?)

As is you want a two handed weapon (possibly with reach. Spiked Chains are pretty good especially when you get full attack channeling). Duskblades are good users of both knowledge devotion and Arcane Strike, on top of full bab, so you can easily generate the to-hit bonuses to make power attack really scary.


I just checked a bunch of sites and it's back and forth on the crit issue

[Vanitas]

It's quite possible to have 5 ranks in a knowledge at level 4, max ranks being level +3. It wil eat up quite a few ranks but your going to be putting them in to get Knowledge Devotion anyway, probably at 3rd level.

Edit: Ninja'd

Ooops. My Pathfinder is showing.

[JungleChicken]

I'll go with the non criting spells, it makes sense thematically that the weapon does but the channeled energy does not.

I would like to see the shenanigans that dimension hopping enemies around the battlefield could do.

[JungleChicken]

Given Dimension Hop as a spell, could a Duskblade attack a creature and send him straight up vertically in the air only to fall and take damage and possible go prone as a result?

The prone part isn't anything specific just for me a common sense part of falling a large distance.

[DarkSonic1337]

Given Dimension Hop as a spell, could a Duskblade attack a creature and send him straight up vertically in the air only to fall and take damage and possible go prone as a result?

The prone part isn't anything specific just for me a common sense part of falling a large distance.

I don't see how they go prone, but yes you can channel dimension hop and if they fail their will save you can teleport them anywhere within the range of the spell. When you get full attack channeling you can extend this to a full attack and teleport everyone you hit. (though at that level it's unlikely they'll fail the will save vs a level 2 spell on a non dedicated caster).

[JungleChicken]

I don't see how they go prone, but yes you can channel dimension hop and if they fail their will save you can teleport them anywhere within the range of the spell. When you get full attack channeling you can extend this to a full attack and teleport everyone you hit. (though at that level it's unlikely they'll fail the will save vs a level 2 spell on a non dedicated caster).

The prone isn't RAW, that's why I said it just makes common sense. Have you ever seen anybody fall 40 feet and remain standing? I've seen plenty of people far less and it lays them out.

Now if the GM just mentioned some extra damage I wouldn't fight him on it. I mean it's magic

[Fouredged Sword]

One cannot DD or teleport onto a surface that cannot support them.

[JungleChicken]

One cannot DD or teleport onto a surface that cannot support them.

If that's the case then why are their rules for teleporting into solid objects and the nastiness that ensues

[DarkSonic1337]

The prone isn't RAW, that's why I said it just makes common sense. Have you ever seen anybody fall 40 feet and remain standing? I've seen plenty of people far less and it lays them out.

No, but this game is as far from realism as you can get. You did TELEPORT them 40ft in the air after all <_<.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can teleport into a space that overlaps something, but your feet have to be on a solid surface.