[3.5] When is a Sorcerer better than a Wizard?

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

I'm well familiar with the tier system. A Wizard is tier 1. A Sorcerer is tier 2. Both cast spells from the same list, with minor exclusive spells for one class. Sorcerers cast everything spontaneously while Wizards need to prepare every spell (with some exceptions (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=474.0)),

A Sorcerer gets access to spell levels 2+ a character level later than a Wizard.

Yet, there are times when a Sorcerer is better than a Wizard. When are those times? Assume all official material is allowed. "Dragon" and "Dungeon" material is also allowed. (Make note if you're using such things.)

[Segev]

Epic levels, using the Master Staff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#masterStaff) feat. Your sorcerer needs a way to get ahold of spells for purposes of crafting, but you can put spells into your uberstaff that take 50 charges apiece to cast and instead cast from your spontaneous spell slots.

Wizards can do similarly, but this is a case where the Sorcerer's superior number of spells per day will shine.

[holywhippet]

I generally regard wizards to be strategically superior but sorcerers to be tactically superior. A wizard can choose their spells day by day to deal with whatever they think they might run into. So maybe they might be expecting certain things to occur during their upcoming adventuring day and prepare spells accordingly. But the unexpected occurs and their memorized spells aren't the best fit after all. Maybe they prepared mind effecting spells only to be confronted with undead. Or maybe they prepared fire based spells only to be facing fire elementals.

A sorcerer on the other hand doesn't have to pick which spells they will use each day, they can pick whichever spell they want from those they know as long as they have slots free. Maybe they do have spells like sleep and blindness/deafness which won't work on undead. But chances are they will have a direct damage spell as well. Maybe they do know scorching ray and fireball, but chances are they know spells with a different element that can harm a fire elemental.

[bekeleven]

Sorcerers make better blasters, especially when they're using RotD content to not get hampered by metamagic casting time. See The Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1765181).

Sorcerers are also preferable if they encounter something completely unexpected and must deal with it immediately, although at later levels wizards can even the field by Wishing for Spell Engine. This doesn't happen incredibly often, however, if the wizard is beefing up on divinations (it still can happen).

Sorcerers can narrow the gap by using things like knowstones and runestaves (especially ancestral relic runestaves), but that's not really a way that they're better than wizards so much as a way they're not as bad as initially expected.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ancestral Relic for a custom Runestaff gets around the Sorcerer's limited number of spells known. Also note that as long as you're in the area of a Consecrate spell you can switch out spells for different ones of equal level and it will take zero time, not even a free action, because the value increase of the relic is zero and the time it takes gets multiplied by that. A Wizard can also make use of this, but it's not as great an increase in power for him.

A Kobold Sorcerer can get the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage at 6th level and no longer be a level behind the Wizard on gaining new spell levels. A Dragonwrought Kobold can get the Loredrake archetype (true dragon per Dragon Magic, the most recent book to make mention of it) and be an entire spell level ahead of the Wizard. At 1st level he has a caster level of three with that, so spells last three times as long and deal two or three times as much damage.

A Focused Specialist Wizard can match the Sorcerer in spells/day, but he loses access to two schools of magic for it. When you consider that both would want to take Incantatrix, the Wizard is losing a third school of magic while the Sorcerer only loses one of his.

Plain Wizard is better than plain Sorcerer, but when you compare a Wizard using everything that makes Wizard better to a Sorcerer using everything that makes Sorcerer better, I think Sorcerer comes out ahead at any level.

[Jeff the Green]

Building off of the mailman thing, they do arcane spell surge better. It turns your standard action spells into swifts and full-round spells into standards, but doesn't let you cast with normal times. So a wizard is stuck with fireball + summon while sorcerer can fireball + summon or fireball + maximized fireball. They also have some feats and classes they have an easier time getting into.

The Charisma focus helps sometimes as well. You're more likely to get someone to like you long term, which has significant benefit, while the wizard is stuck with charms and compulsions that are going to have long-term ramifications.

[Divide by Zero]

Some of the sorcerer-exclusive spells are also really good, like (Greater) Arcane Fusion (extra fun with metamagic abuse), and Wings of Flurry, arguably the best close-range blasting spell in the game (Uncapped AoE force damage plus a save vs daze, and it doesn't hit your allies? Yes please).

[(Un)Inspired]

Greetings, all!

Yet, there are times when a Sorcerer is better than a Wizard. When are those times?


With their high charisma, at singles bars in dead magic zones.

[Tvtyrant]

Versatile Spellcaster and Runestaffs say frequently IME.

[Techwarrior]

Dealing precision damage.

I once played a sorcerer who used Scorching Ray to deal literally about a hundred d6s, plus around ten stacks of Craven.

They also use reserve feats much better with Heighten spell.

[Jeff the Green]

Versatile Spellcaster and Runestaffs say frequently IME.

Spontaneous Divination ACF says 'Hi!' Also "Go **** yourselves, sorcerers." This ACF makes very little that's available to a sorcerer unavailable to a wizard.

[Thanatosia]

Mechanically Wizards are just better. But a lot of people just prefer the playstyle of spontaneious casters, I'm one of them.... I always prefer favored souls and Sorcerors over Clerics and Wizards despite them being technically inferior classes. I just dont like managing a spell prepared list, I just way prefer having a big list of abilities I can use and a big pool of uses to split among them.

[The Insanity]

Yet, there are times when a Sorcerer is better than a Wizard.
There are?

[Haldir]

Generally it is superior to buff allies and attack weak saves. If there is such a situation where one spell is especially effective for completing an encounter, a Sorceror may be superior to the wizard in that he can use the spell repeatedly, whereas a wizard needs to prepare different buffs and attack different saves so he is prepared for whatever comes his way.

It's kind of a matter of daily-flexibility.

[Gemini476]

Some of the sorcerer-exclusive spells are also really good, like (Greater) Arcane Fusion (extra fun with metamagic abuse), and Wings of Flurry, arguably the best close-range blasting spell in the game (Uncapped AoE force damage plus a save vs daze, and it doesn't hit your allies? Yes please).

For example, by adding Sanctum Spell to lower the spell level. Nigh-Infinite loops that let you cast infinite spells! Yaaaay!

[Yogibear41]

A sorcerer doesn't become a commoner with magic items when his spellbook is destroyed, or lost, or stolen, etc etc.


Also if you happen to be using some sort of homebrew rules that would allow a sorcerer to learn new spells by doing quests or spending money or something.


If you are building a charisma based gish.

[Psyren]

As with most discussions of this type it comes down to the player.

The sorcerer is better when the player doesn't have the patience or understanding to make optimal use of the wizard's preparation method. Some players know the right spells to pick, but are bad at judging how many they need. Or they play generalist because they don't want to/know which schools to ban, and are also inexperienced at rationing their complement, so they run out during the day.

Pathfinder adds additional considerations like flavorful bloodlines, Eschew Materials, and UMD.

[Codyage]

A sorcerer doesn't become a commoner with magic items when his spellbook is destroyed, or lost, or stolen, etc etc.


Also if you happen to be using some sort of homebrew rules that would allow a sorcerer to learn new spells by doing quests or spending money or something.


If you are building a charisma based gish.


Eidetic Spell Caster Dragon Magazine#357. At level one, trade your familiar and all your spells go into your head instead of a spell book. You get to scribe spells into your head normally as well, however instead of ink you use incense.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Barring uncanny forethought, a sorcerer is the superior option when you go into the game expecting a few things to be true.

1) Getting information about what lies ahead will be difficult or impossible, perhaps because of time crunches or secretive foes or some other factor.

2) Access to new spells outside of level gains will be difficult, perhaps because of time crunch or lack of access to larger settlements.

3) Your chosen style of casting relies more on repeated use of a handful of spells than on having the silver bullet to every problem.

If any of those are true then sorcerer is worth consideration over wizard, especially the third. If all of them are true then a sorcerer will almost certainly be a better choice.

Uncanny forethought lets a wizard cast anything in his book in a manner that is spontaneous-ish and renders the whole thing moot. Wizard wins.

Naturally if you simply prefer the feel and style of a sorcerer over a wizard then you should play a sorcerer and ignore any concerns someone with passing familiarity with the tier listings might bring up. The sorcerer is just as powerful and gets plenty of spells to almost always have a solution that's good enough. It's simply less versatile in the long-run.

[georgie_leech]

I like Sorcerers because they force me to be creative with existing resources. Since they can't change their spell load out easily day to day (barring Tippy methods), I need to find ways to use what spells I have instead of looking up the silver bullet. Yeah, I could look it up anyway and use a scroll, but I find it more interesting to Scorching Ray the ropes holding the bridge up than cast Bigby's Bridge Collapsing Hand or whatever. It's sort of like playing an adventure game with the walkthrough or not.

[Pan151]

Sorcerer is, imo, vastly superior to wizard in the mid-high levels, unless the wizard can reliably guess/divine the exact spells he will need every day (which he should not be able to do unless the dm is deliberately playing the antagonists badly, period). At low levels wizard is clearly better, because sorcerers are extremely limited to what they can cast, but once higher level spells and metamagic starts coming into play then sorcerers take over.

If a wizard is tied up/silenced/his spellbook is destroyed he's useless. A sorcerer will simply apply some metamagic and still be able to cast most of his spells with no problem.

Besides if variety of spells is a problem, a sorcerer can always just buy a bunch of scrolls and wands of things he can't cast and have them available for a time of need.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sorcerer is, imo, vastly superior to wizard in the mid-high levels, unless the wizard can reliably guess/divine the exact spells he will need every day (which he should not be able to do unless the dm is deliberately playing the antagonists badly, period). At low levels wizard is clearly better, because sorcerers are extremely limited to what they can cast, but once higher level spells and metamagic starts coming into play then sorcerers take over.

If a wizard is tied up/silenced/his spellbook is destroyed he's useless. A sorcerer will simply apply some metamagic and still be able to cast most of his spells with no problem.

Besides if variety of spells is a problem, a sorcerer can always just buy a bunch of scrolls and wands of things he can't cast and have them available for a time of need.

Um.... no.

First of all, intelligence and counter intelligence is a cat and mouse game that a DM and player end up playing regardless of class choice. If the player is better at it, cyphering what's coming up isn't that hard and I suspect that you're forgetting the fact that a wizard can prepare spells mid-day if he leaves slots open in the morning. It's not much use in combat situations but for utility it's an awesome mechanic that's easily and too often overlooked.

The wizard's ability to use metamagic is laughably superior to the sorcerer's. The only way the sorcerer can match a wizard is to copy him by picking up arcane preparation. Most single instance uses of metamagic are done via metamagic rods anyway.

Bound wizard; heh, no. Heart of water. Once he's bound he waits for an opportunity, triggers the spell's secondary function and slips out of his bonds like an oversized t-shirt. That's assuming you can even catch the tricky bugger in the first place; no small feat if the wizard is played well.

Stolen/destroyed spellbook = irresponsible wizard. Ignoring eidetic wizards, there's tattoo spellbooks and spellbooks disguised as other things; both complete arcane. Then there's the fact that a wizard can partially reconstruct a stolen or destroyed spellbook from the spells he has memorized and -most- wizards keep backup spellbooks. The typical pattern is to scribe the level up spells into mundane spellbooks then copy them at no cost into his blessed book and keep the mundane copies at a safe location, not on his person.

You got some funny ideas about wizardry.

[sideswipe]

A sorcerer is better in any combat situation where you were not expecting it and the wizard was prepared for investigation and utility purposes.
Especially if the sorcerer has metamagic.

LVL9 wizard say " I prepared a fireball just in case"...
Same level sorcerer says... I have 6 fireballs and 4 empowered fireballs.

everyone knows the utility problems with a sorcerer and wizards can be better. but this is the exact situation where a sorcerer is better. and why they are still a great class.

[strider24seven]

Also Uncanny Forethought and Spontaneous Divination are huge points in favor of the wizard.

Metamagic is actually a weak point of the sorcerer unless the Metamagic Specialist or Rapid Metamagic is available.

The sorcerer has a few spells which give him an edge over the wizard: Wings of Cover (http://dndtools.eu/spells/races-of-the-dragon--83/wings-of-cover--3100/), Wings of Flurry (http://dndtools.eu/spells/races-of-the-dragon--83/wings-of-flurry--3101/), Arcane Fusion (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-mage--58/arcane-fusion--890/), Arcane Spellsurge (http://dndtools.eu/spells/dragon-magic--62/arcane-spellsurge--1093/).

On the other hand, wizards get the Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer engine for NI spells of 3rd level or below.

Wizards also get access to Abrupt Jaunt.


A sorcerer is better in any combat situation where you were not expecting it and the wizard was prepared for investigation and utility purposes.
Especially if the sorcerer has metamagic.

LVL9 wizard say " I prepared a fireball just in case"...
Same level sorcerer says... I have 6 fireballs and 4 empowered fireballs.

everyone knows the utility problems with a sorcerer and wizards can be better. but this is the exact situation where a sorcerer is better. and why they are still a great class.

And this is why Wizards keep Solid Fog+Black Tentacles prepared. Waste not...

[Segev]

The crucial thing that makes wizards just plain better is that they can take better advantage of multi-day duration spells.

Take the classic (Greater) Planar Binding spell. The sorcerer definitely gets mileage out of it; it's a versatile spell well worth his spell known slot to pick up because it lets him call outsiders to do his bidding and provide a lot of effects his spells-known don't cover directly. The wizard, on the other hand, spends some gold on scribing it into his spellbook. He gets the same benefit as the sorcerer, but also doesn't have to "use up" a slot in his "available spell selection" on adventuring days, because he cast the Planar Binding last week.

Simulacrum, Animate Dead, Ice Assassin... any of these "minion-making" spells that last for days are things the Wizard can know more of and use in down time without costing much of his "during play" resources. The sorcerer is burdened with these clogging up his "Spells Known" slots even on days he never will use them.

[Chronos]

Greater Planar Binding is actually biased even more towards the wizard than that, since the sorcerer needs to spend two precious spells known to make us of it: He needs GPB itself, and then he also needs Magic Circle against <own alignment> (a spell he's not likely to use for anything else) to make the summoning circle.

On a similar note, another place where the sorcerer is inferior is item creation. A lot of nice items require obscure spells in their creation. If you're only going to make the time once or twice, and you're not going to cast that spell for its own effect, then it's really hard to justify spending a Spells Known slot on it, but it doesn't cost the wizard much to put it in her book anyway.

[Person_Man]

Sorcerers are just a lot less hassle to play. You don't have to choose which spells to memorize every game day. You rarely have the aggravation factor of making the "wrong choice." (If I had only memorized two Solid Fogs today instead of just one!) You don't have to rest as often, because you have more spells per day and you never have to worry about a slot being wasted memorizing a situational spell. And so on.

[Agincourt]

Bound wizard; heh, no. Heart of water. Once he's bound he waits for an opportunity, triggers the spell's secondary function and slips out of his bonds like an oversized t-shirt. That's assuming you can even catch the tricky bugger in the first place; no small feat if the wizard is played well.



I would dispute Heart of Water frees a person from mundane binding. It activates Freedom of Movement (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Freedom_of_Movement), which says a character automatically succeeds on escape artist checks to escape a grapple or pin. It does not say anything about other escape artist checks.

There is some debate about this (for example, this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138066)), but put me in the camp that says it does not work on other escape artist checks. Otherwise, the rest of the sentence is just a waste of text. If Freedom of Movement worked on all escape artists checks, they should have cut out the rest of the sentence restricting which escape artist checks it works on.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Please keep in mind the following stipulation:


Yet, there are times when a Sorcerer is better than a Wizard. When are those times? Assume all official material is allowed. "Dragon" and "Dungeon" material is also allowed. (Make note if you're using such things.)

Ancestral Relic for a custom Runestaff makes the Sorcerer's normally limited number of spells known absolutely irrelevant.

A Sorcerer has a way to overcome every single thing that makes him worse than a Wizard. A Wizard does not share this luxury, he still has to prepare (most of) his spells ahead of time. He has to give up schools to get as many spells per day. He's actually an entire two character levels behind on when he gets access to a new level of spells, all things considered. When all material is permissible, when a Wizard is using everything available to make him a better Wizard, and when a Sorcerer is using everything available to make him a better Sorcerer, the Sorcerer comes out way ahead.

[Segev]

When all material is permissible, when a Wizard is using everything available to make him a better Wizard, and when a Sorcerer is using everything available to make him a better Sorcerer, the Sorcerer comes out way ahead.

Is there a detailed handbook or walk-through that explains how to achieve this? I would be interested in reading such a work.

[Grek]

On the other hand: The wizard gets Scribe Scroll for free, and is pretty much expected to be walking around with a pocket full of emergency scrolls.

[Slipperychicken]

Sorcerers are just a lot less hassle to play. You don't have to choose which spells to memorize every game day. You rarely have the aggravation factor of making the "wrong choice." (If I had only memorized two Solid Fogs today instead of just one!) You don't have to rest as often, because you have more spells per day and you never have to worry about a slot being wasted memorizing a situational spell. And so on.

You beat me to it, Person_Man.

[prufock]

Sorcerers are arguably better at counterspelling/dispelling, thanks to its higher number of spells per day and no need to prep them beforehand. You can counterspell/dispel as often as you can cast. (Greater) Dispel Magic + at least one spell of each school per level + Improved Counterspell.

Add in Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten + Earth Spell to deal with that "one level higher" nonsense from Improved Counterspell, Reactive Counterspell to save on actions, and standard contingency, Craft Contingent Spell, and Retributive Spell to shut down just about any spell the enemy casts.

Practical Metamagic (Heighten Spell), Rapid Metamagic, etc might be good ways to round it out. Plus you want some ways to boost your caster level.

One downside is it can't get into Master Specialist for the abjuration minor esoterica.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is there a detailed handbook or walk-through that explains how to achieve this? I would be interested in reading such a work.

I already went over most of it earlier in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324286#5).

[AlltheBooks]

As a fan of sorcerors, wizards are better. Oh well.
The one thing that as always bothered me ever since I cracked the 3.0 PHB was sorcs restriction on metamagic.
It doesn't even fit their fluff! One would think they can do whatever they want with the few resources they have. I've houseruled away sorc metamagic restrictions. It's silly. Oh and the "they can learn unique or unusual spells" that's right there in the fluff but not on any table & DM dependant so ppl don't even look at that. Oh and just bluff, really?

[nedz]

Sorcerers are just a lot less hassle to play. You don't have to choose which spells to memorize every game day. You rarely have the aggravation factor of making the "wrong choice." (If I had only memorized two Solid Fogs today instead of just one!) You don't have to rest as often, because you have more spells per day and you never have to worry about a slot being wasted memorizing a situational spell. And so on.

I pretty much agree with this.

Sorcerers suit a player who does their planning between sessions, whilst Wizards are more about planning mid session. I also hate the stress of having the whole group wait for me to pick my spells for the next day.

Now Wizards are more powerful but Player > Build > Class and so in practice a Sorcerer can be more powerful than a Wizard.

[Segev]

I already went over most of it earlier in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16755844#5).

Linking back to my post you quoted doesn't point me towards it.

You alluded to a runestaff as an ancestral relic achieving some of it, mentioning that this allowed free replacement when in a Sanctified area. That's not exactly "detailed," unless that is the only trick to it. If so, that's fine, but the tenor of your claim sounded like it meant there was more to it.

[Psyren]

Nitpick - the wizard can actually get more per day if he goes focused specialist. And banning 3 schools does wonders for curing the paralysis of analysis that wizards often find themselves in.

Though the problem of knowing exactly how many copies of spell X to prepare remains.

[Slipperychicken]

Nitpick - the wizard can actually get more per day if he goes focused specialist.


Domain Wizard + Elven Generalist works if you don't want to axe 3 schools.


And you can basically build a wizard to be more or less spontaneous with the following stuff, largely eliminating the "analysis paralysis", since you can basically cast anything off the Sorc/Wiz list (any spell you cared to learn, anyway) without preparing it beforehand. I built it out, and you can get all of this stuff by level 9 without shenanigans.


Uncanny Forethought (reserve Int mod of spells/day, cast as Full-Round action at -2 CL)
Nexus Method (convert any spell into a Summon Monster of that level or lower)
Alacritous Cogitation (one spontaneous casting. Not a big deal, but it helps)
Spontaneous Divination (convert any spell to any known Divination, replaces bonus feat at 5th, 15th, or 20th)
Arcane Devotee1 (1+Cha auto-enlarged spontaneous castings)

If you're sick of that whole "spellbook protection" minigame, you can just go Eidetic Wizard and stop worrying.

So yeah, a Wizard who really wants to can be a better Sorcerer.

[Setra]

Dealing precision damage.

I once played a sorcerer who used Scorching Ray to deal literally about a hundred d6s, plus around ten stacks of Craven.

They also use reserve feats much better with Heighten spell.
Considering that only the first ray should be dealing precision damage, how did you manage that?

[Dalebert]

Domain Wizard + Elven Generalist works if you don't want to axe 3 schools.

I thought EG just got one extra spell.


So yeah, a Wizard who really wants to can be a better Sorcerer.

Alternately, you can go a single level dip and qualify for Versatile Spellcaster to cast any spell you know by sacrificing two slots of one level lower. I guess that could get expensive though. It seems really nice for casting buff or utility spells at the end of the day that will either last all night or even into the next day, spells you don't necessarily want to plan a slot for but that you'll cast if you have slots left over.

There's a way to go UM with only one level dip--Practiced Spellcaster and something else that I don't recall to be a wizard with lots of extra metamagic goodies and extra spell slots. I realize that even a single level dip is an unforgivable sin on these boards but I think that's a case that actually makes it worthwhile.

[Gemini476]

For a Sorcerer with everything available to boost them - that is, Loredrake Dragonswrought Kobold, with the following feats:
Feat 1: Dragonwrought
Feat 3: Ancestral Relic
Feat 6: Draconic Reservoir
And a custom Runestaff, then you can swap spells known (as a free action?) within a Consecrated area, and have an Effective Sorcerer Level three higher than normal.

Do note that you can convert all that Sorcerer casting to Wizard casting if the Kobold acquires the Spellhoarding Dragon Psychosis. And then they can cast any spell they manage to counterspell, including ones not on their list!

To make a Wizard spontaneous is rather easy, what with things like Uncanny Forethought or Spontaneous Divination. You can also grab Versatile Spellcaster and - since you know all spells in your spellbook - spend two spell slots to cast any spell you know, including ones whose spell level you do not yet have access to.

Or, of course, you can use Versatile Spellcaster and Elven Domain Generalist Wizard to ladder up to 9th level slots at level one, and be able to cast 9th level spells from said slots at level 9. It's doable in E6 as well, but then you need extra feats.

You can also use Abyssal Specialist+Planar Spell Casting ([Chaotic])+Chaotic Spell Recall to be both specialized in every spell you have and also be able to recall any spell 1+(Abyssal Heritor feats/2) times/day.

Not to mention that Wizards can also grab Ancestral Relic+Runestaff.

[Slipperychicken]

I thought EG just got one extra spell.


I know, but that's good enough until you get to the levels where you have more than enough slots for a given day.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Linking back to my post you quoted doesn't point me towards it.

You alluded to a runestaff as an ancestral relic achieving some of it, mentioning that this allowed free replacement when in a Sanctified area. That's not exactly "detailed," unless that is the only trick to it. If so, that's fine, but the tenor of your claim sounded like it meant there was more to it.

I put a #5 at the end of the url, expecting it to go to the 5th post in the thread, but it didn't work out right. It's fixed now.

Here's a bit more detailed explanation:
Take Ancestral Relic (BoED) at 3rd level, and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224). You get to decide every spell that's on it and how often each can be used. Every time you upgrade/modify it you can completely replace its current properties with new ones of equal value. The value of its magical properties has a level-based limit, but there is no limit to the value you can sacrifice into it for later use.

When your party would sell junk loot for half price, buy it from the party pool for that price. You'll still get a fair share of that back when the cash is split, so for example in a party of four characters, 1,000 gp worth of junk loot will cost you 500 gp, and you'll get 125 gp of that back, for a net cost of 375 gp. You can sacrifice the full value of all that junk loot into your Ancestral Relic to upgrade it, so it's upgraded for considerably less than half price.

Spells on a Runestaff are extremely cheap, especially 1st and 2nd level spells. The description of Runestaffs states you shouldn't put spells below 3rd level on them, but it does not state that you cannot do so. Since it's an Ancestral Relic you have absolute control over every aspect of its magical properties, so you can put whatever spells you want on it. A Sorcerer can easily have more spells on his Runestaff than his total number of spells known, more than doubling his effective spells known. Runestaff spells can only be cast once, twice, or three times each day, but they're cheaper if they're usable less often, so you can put 1/day buffs on it for cheap without wasting any spells known on them.

A Runestaff is a type of staff, so you can also add charged uses of spells to it as though it's a staff, in addition to being a runestaff. Its value will go down per charge used, but you can accumulate enough extra value in it ahead of time and recharge it and even change what spells it contains via the normal upgrade method. Plus you can make each end +1 Defending and put Greater Magic Weapon on each for +10 AC, or make it an Elvencraft Longbow for a third instance of +1 Defending to make that +15 AC. Since that would count as three weapons, you can put three wand chambers on it to so you're always holding three wands ready for use, in addition to the staff.

As I said before, a Wizard could use this same trick, but because a Sorcerer's spells known are normally so limited it's a much more significant increase in power for him.

[Segev]

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation, Biffoniacus_Furiou.

It's a lower-level version of the Master Staff trick, with a bit to a lot more efficiency in terms of its expenditures.

The sorcerer is better than the wizard at this one, too, due to having more spell slots to spend on the runestaff's activations, and to not having any difficulty with forbidden schools keeping him from using certain spells in it.

I'm not sure of the interpretation that a runestaff is a "staff" in the sense that you can treat it like a normal one with normal, charged spells, but...even without that, it's potent.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm not sure of the interpretation that a runestaff is a "staff" in the sense that you can treat it like a normal one with normal, charged spells, but...even without that, it's potent.

There are Runestaffs that are also enchanted as magic weapons (quarterstaffs), and there are charged staffs that are enchanted as magic weapons (quarterstaffs). Runestaff = Quarterstaff, Charged Staff = Quarterstaff, there's not much reason you couldn't do it because they're both the same type of base item. Since it's a held item and it doesn't occupy an item slot, there's no additional cost to adding multiple effects.

[Segev]

Good point.

[Chronos]

Quoth Slipperychicken:

And you can basically build a wizard to be more or less spontaneous with the following stuff, largely eliminating the "analysis paralysis", since you can basically cast anything off the Sorc/Wiz list (any spell you cared to learn, anyway) without preparing it beforehand.
That doesn't eliminate the analysis paralysis, though, it just shifts it to a different time. A normal wizard has to choose from something close to all spells ever printed, when he prepares his spells. A wizard using one of the spontaneity tricks has to choose from the same set of spells every time he casts. No matter when you make that choice, it's pretty daunting. A sorcerer, though, will always have the same spells available, and so can choose from among them much more readily. The spell they choose might not be quite as good as the spell the spontaneous wizard could have chosen, but they can do it without bogging down the gameplay and annoying everyone around the table.

[Gemini476]

I just ran into the funniest trick. You see, in Complete Divine there's this Relic of Boccob called the Tome of Ancient Lore. It's a spellbook with every single spell in the game in it that's worth 22,000gp.
To use it, you'll need to have taken the True Believer feat, worship Boccob, and have 9HD.
Now, you can, if you want to, prepare spells from it. It's 90% chance that you'll manage to find the spell in question, though, and you can't retry within 24 hours.

A spellcaster with a spellbook knows every spell in their spellbook, however.

Versatile Spell lets you sacrifice two spell slots of a lower level to cast any spell you know that's one level higher, and Wizards qualify for it via Spontaneous Divination.

Forget Runestaves, you can cast any spell in the game by using two lower spellslots.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I just ran into the funniest trick. You see, in Complete Divine there's this Relic of Boccob called the Tome of Ancient Lore. It's a spellbook with every single spell in the game in it that's worth 22,000gp.
To use it, you'll need to have taken the True Believer feat, worship Boccob, and have 9HD.
Now, you can, if you want to, prepare spells from it. It's 90% chance that you'll manage to find the spell in question, though, and you can't retry within 24 hours.

A spellcaster with a spellbook knows every spell in their spellbook, however.

Versatile Spell lets you sacrifice two spell slots of a lower level to cast any spell you know that's one level higher, and Wizards qualify for it via Spontaneous Divination.

Forget Runestaves, you can cast any spell in the game by using two lower spellslots.

Not entirely accurate. A Wizard must first study a spell, then make a Spellcraft check, and only then will he learn the spell and be able to count it as a spell known. He'll typically add it to his spellbook after that, but just having a book with a given spell in it does not mean you know that spell. Relevant rules reference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings).

Plus that item was reprinted in MIC, it's cheaper and you can only prepare one spell per day from it.

[Techwarrior]

Considering that only the first ray should be dealing precision damage, how did you manage that?

That rule only applies to a volley attack as per the rules compendium. If a sorcerer uses metamagic, the spell takes a full-round action thus exempting it from the volley rules.

Or were you asking about the build?

[Jack_Simth]

There are a number of factors that increase or decrease the power of the Wizard or the Sorcerer in game.

1) Usefulness of Divinations (and other sources of advanced info):
If the DM lets divinations (or other methods) give pretty good information about what's coming up, then the Wizard's ability to adapt spell selection in advance is useful, and pushes things more towards the Wizard side of the equation. If the DM makes divinations (and other methods of gaining info about what is coming up) essentially useless and usually surprises the party, then the Sorcerer's constant access to every spell the Sorcerer knows is an advantage, and pushes things that way.

2) Down Time:
The Wizard can do a lot of things... however, it takes down time to get them set up. The Wizard needs an hour to prepare spells, a day per spell to add them to the Wizard's spellbook, time to craft things, and so on. With a lot of down time between (or during) adventures, the scales tip more towards the Wizard's way of doing things. The Sorcerer, on the other hand, needs only 15 minutes to prepare spells, doesn't scribe scrolls into spellbooks, and generally doesn't need to bother with item crafting. In a game with a breakneck in-character pace, the scales tip more towards the Sorcerer's method.

3) Sanctity of Equipment (and especially the spellbook):
Barring specific Feats, Alternate Class Features, and build tricks (which most wizard players don't use), a Wizard has a piece of required equipment: The Spellbook. Unexpectedly stripped naked and tossed into a cell after a hard day of adventuring that leaves you without slots... the Wizard player has to have prepared for the specific situation to be of much use, while the Sorcerer player shrugs, checks known spells to see which ones require material components and focuses and which ones don't, rests up, and starts casting. If the DM basically never targets equipment, neither the Wizard nor the Sorcerer needs to spend extra resources for such contingencies. If the DM regularly targets equipment, the Wizard needs to spend resources on such contingencies (backup spellbooks, Spell Mastery, alternate class features, et cetera) while the Sorcerer... maybe decides to pick up Eschew Materials and Locate Object (if the player feels like it). The more often spellbooks get targetted along with other equipment, the more the scales slide toward the Sorcerer.

4) Specific spells:
There are a couple of spells (even in Core) that favour the Sorcerer over the Wizard in the basic mechanics of how they operate: Charm X, [Lesser, Greater] Planar Binding, and a handful of others - because they involve Charisma checks, which is a general dump stat for Wizards (they get very little mileage out of it). If such spells see a lot of use, the scales slide slightly towards the Sorcerer; if they do not, the scales slide slightly towards the Wizard.

There's more... but basically, no one thing makes the Wizard better than the Sorcerer (or vice-versa) outside of specific builds or specific scenarios. If you use various forms of optimization on either side, then of course the side with the optimization will look a ton better than the side without. But yes, there are a fair number of campaign-specific things that can push the scales such that, with the same level of optimization, one class will be better than the other. Yes, in a 'generic' campaign, the Wizard probably has a better... let's call it a 'starting position', for now... than does the Sorcerer. But there are going to be campaigns where various factors make the Sorcerer a better overall choice than the Wizard, all things being equal.

[Piggy Knowles]

Considering that only the first ray should be dealing precision damage, how did you manage that?


That rule only applies to a volley attack as per the rules compendium. If a sorcerer uses metamagic, the spell takes a full-round action thus exempting it from the volley rules.

Or were you asking about the build?

To clarify: the Rules Compendium says that volley attacks only deal precision damage on the first attack, and then goes on to define a volley as anything that makes multiple attacks in less than a full round action.

A sorcerer who uses metamagic on a spell like Scorching Ray ends up turning it into a full round action, and therefore it does not count as a volley attack and each ray should deal precision damage. A wizard who does the same has no such luck. It's the one strange and rare instance where the sorcerer's metamagic restriction actually becomes a benefit.

[Divide by Zero]

It's the one strange and rare instance where the sorcerer's metamagic restriction actually becomes a benefit.

One of two instances, actually (that I can think of, at least): Arcane Spellsurge, because otherwise you can't cast on your standard actions except with full-round spells.

[HunterOfJello]

Sorcerer is better than Wizard on the day where you set up all your spells for hiding, spying, using divinations, diplomancing, and working to fool a bunch of evil potential enemies...


and then you find out that there are two armies of frost giants along with two white dragons about an hour away from the town you're supposed to protect which is probably now going to be massacred.


(This is the situation my current wizard character is in.)

[Vizzerdrix]

Sorcs do meta magic much better than wizards.

And spell limitations can be gotten around in a ton of ways. My personal favorite is MotAO.

[Killer Angel]

I know it sounds silly, but basically a sorcerer can be better than wizard, only if the sorc's player got a very good knowledge of the system.

[AWiz_Abroad]

Sorcerer is better than Wizard on the day where you set up all your spells for hiding, spying, using divinations, diplomancing, and working to fool a bunch of evil potential enemies...


and then you find out that there are two armies of frost giants along with two white dragons about an hour away from the town you're supposed to protect which is probably now going to be massacred.


(This is the situation my current wizard character is in.)

What sort of level is your wizard? If you can cast wish. Wish --> Spell Engine, Reprepare your whole list

[Ansem]

Wizard = Blaster / Buffer + Prepared circumstances (say you already know you'll need a way to go into an underwater temple, water breathing/walking etc will be prepared).
Sorcerer = Blaster / Controller / Debuffer (Buffer possible but not a beneficial role)

[Pan151]

Um.... no.

First of all, intelligence and counter intelligence is a cat and mouse game that a DM and player end up playing regardless of class choice. If the player is better at it, cyphering what's coming up isn't that hard and I suspect that you're forgetting the fact that a wizard can prepare spells mid-day if he leaves slots open in the morning. It's not much use in combat situations but for utility it's an awesome mechanic that's easily and too often overlooked.

That's all fine and good... except that game goes both ways. If the players can figure out what they need to counter the enemies, so can the enemies figure out what they need to counter that counter. And it's a game that, in the end, will be won by the one that has the most recources (which will usually be the antagonist). Or the could simply ambush you in your sleep - see how well you can memorise that morderkainen's disjunction while a couple Balors are trying to bash your head flat.
Meanwhile, the sorcerer simply walks in and the enemy can do nothing about it.

The wizard will be more useful in OOC situations, that much is certain, but in (high level) combat sorcerers reign supreme. Assuming of course that the antagonist is not a 1-dimentional cliche and the DM's plot and strategy is not so bad as to be easily readable from a mile away.


What sort of level is your wizard? If you can cast wish. Wish --> Spell Engine, Reprepare your whole list

Congratulations, you just wasted 5000 exp. Enjoy having to do that every time your dm pulls off an inconvenient encounter. And next time you face another high level wizard, see who of the 2 of you can wish themselves to 0 exp the fastest...
Or you could have just picked a sorcerer and always have a good combination of spells available.

[Emperor Tippy]

Congratulations, you just wasted 5000 exp. Enjoy having to do that every time your dm pulls off an inconvenient encounter. And next time you face another high level wizard, see who of the 2 of you can wish themselves to 0 exp the fastest...
Or you could have just picked a sorcerer and always have a good combination of spells available.

It's Quickened Wish -> Spell Engine (either from a Craft Contingent or use a Greater Rod of Quicken) so that you can swift action repick your entire list of prepared spells.

If you are willing to spend a standard action then it is Free Action shift to Zodar form (as you should have Shapechange up 24/7 at this point anyways) -> Wish SU to replicate Spell Engine, start of next turn you free action shift back to whatever form you want to use and have your entire list of prepared spells altered to whatever you wanted as a standard action.

Of course, a Psion is better. Unlimited access to every single spell (Arcane and Divine from any list) and power with no need for material components or foci and unlimited PP regeneration outside of combat (or even in combat with the right prep work so that you can infinite loop duel affinity fields along with Bestow Power) using purely native abilities that can not be removed in pretty much any way.

[Segev]

Or the could simply ambush you in your sleep - see how well you can memorise that morderkainen's disjunction while a couple Balors are trying to bash your head flat.
Meanwhile, the sorcerer simply walks in and the enemy can do nothing about it.

Once again, this is failing to take into account the wizard's greatest strength: more efficient use of down time. The wizard doesn't have to have Disjunction prepared now, tonight, when you ambush him. The wizard has umpteen dozen and a half defenses he's prepared long in advance, from simple Alarm items to potent Outsiders or other conjured, summoned, or created minions standing guard to highly complex contingent spells hanging from days ago.

The sorcerer can have similar defenses, but where the wizard may have spent all his spell slots "today" on buffs, debuffs, blasts, and battlefield control, each of these spells known the sorcerer devoted to having these defenses is clogging up his ability to have other spells useful in day-to-day circumstances. Whereas the wizard could devote one or few spell slots per day - or a whole day's worth if he's feeling really secure during down time - to his "preparations," the sorcerer devotes his spells known at all times.

So the sorcerer can only "walk in and there's nothing you can do about it" if you're not prepared for a relatively generalized list of spells.

[Agincourt]

If you are willing to spend a standard action then it is Free Action shift to Zodar form (as you should have Shapechange up 24/7 at this point anyways) -> Wish SU to replicate Spell Engine, start of next turn you free action shift back to whatever form you want to use and have your entire list of prepared spells altered to whatever you wanted as a standard action.


A Zodar gets Wish once a year. It's assuming a lot that his DM will rule he can cast that regularly. Many (most?) DMs would limit that trick to only being usable once per calendar year.

[Yogibear41]

Eidetic Spell Caster Dragon Magazine#357. At level one, trade your familiar and all your spells go into your head instead of a spell book. You get to scribe spells into your head normally as well, however instead of ink you use incense.

Sure, but most people are to busy abrupt jaunting to bother with that noise :smallsmile:

[Codyage]

Sure, but most people are to busy abrupt jaunting to bother with that noise :smallsmile:

You know, this just made me think of something.

Obtain Familiar lets you get a familiar in a manner similar to a sorcerer or wizard. So I am wondering if this meets the criteria to trade it for another wizard/sorcerer ACF.

[Shining Wrath]

Any time when you are fighting a battle like a video game boss, where you need to just spam the key spell over and over. Assuming it's on your list.

Spells where having high charisma is useful, like Planar Ally series.

[Shining Wrath]

Once again, this is failing to take into account the wizard's greatest strength: more efficient use of down time. The wizard doesn't have to have Disjunction prepared now, tonight, when you ambush him. The wizard has umpteen dozen and a half defenses he's prepared long in advance, from simple Alarm items to potent Outsiders or other conjured, summoned, or created minions standing guard to highly complex contingent spells hanging from days ago.

The sorcerer can have similar defenses, but where the wizard may have spent all his spell slots "today" on buffs, debuffs, blasts, and battlefield control, each of these spells known the sorcerer devoted to having these defenses is clogging up his ability to have other spells useful in day-to-day circumstances. Whereas the wizard could devote one or few spell slots per day - or a whole day's worth if he's feeling really secure during down time - to his "preparations," the sorcerer devotes his spells known at all times.

So the sorcerer can only "walk in and there's nothing you can do about it" if you're not prepared for a relatively generalized list of spells.

Unless the sorcerer can buy scrolls.

[Pan151]

It's Quickened Wish -> Spell Engine (either from a Craft Contingent or use a Greater Rod of Quicken) so that you can swift action repick your entire list of prepared spells.

If you are willing to spend a standard action then it is Free Action shift to Zodar form (as you should have Shapechange up 24/7 at this point anyways) -> Wish SU to replicate Spell Engine, start of next turn you free action shift back to whatever form you want to use and have your entire list of prepared spells altered to whatever you wanted as a standard action.

Of course, a Psion is better. Unlimited access to every single spell (Arcane and Divine from any list) and power with no need for material components or foci and unlimited PP regeneration outside of combat (or even in combat with the right prep work so that you can infinite loop duel affinity fields along with Bestow Power) using purely native abilities that can not be removed in pretty much any way.

If we are going to cheese anyway, then the Sorcerer has an entire library of scrolls, wands, rods and various other magical items that render the whole arguement of prepared vs spontaneous casting moot.
If we're gonna cheese real hard, we can also get a lv1 rogue with a bag of holding filled with staves of the magi...

[Shining Wrath]

Sorcerers are just a lot less hassle to play. You don't have to choose which spells to memorize every game day. You rarely have the aggravation factor of making the "wrong choice." (If I had only memorized two Solid Fogs today instead of just one!) You don't have to rest as often, because you have more spells per day and you never have to worry about a slot being wasted memorizing a situational spell. And so on.

When comparing spells per day, it is worth noting that a Wizard is more likely to end a tough day with uncast spells, because he memorized something "just in case" and that case didn't come up. It's somewhat less likely that the Sorcerer had NO spells applicable to a situation and cast nothing.

[Segev]

Unless the sorcerer can buy scrolls.

Limited in caster level and save DCs (though that latter is often not a problem), and very expensive. Also relies on external sources.

By that logic, the fighter can be as prepared and ready as the wizard. After all, use-activated one-shots are only twice the price of scrolls.

And meanwhile, the rogue can just UMD the scrolls.

[Shining Wrath]

Limited in caster level and save DCs (though that latter is often not a problem), and very expensive. Also relies on external sources.

By that logic, the fighter can be as prepared and ready as the wizard. After all, use-activated one-shots are only twice the price of scrolls.

And meanwhile, the rogue can just UMD the scrolls.

Sorcerers have more free cash flow than Wizards, because the Wizard has to spend money buying all those spells and scribing them into their spellbooks.

It is not quite the same thing for an arcane caster to have an arcane scroll to supplement their capabilities as it is for a fighter to carry dozens of one-shot items.

[Psyren]

When it's a Sha'ir. (Hey-o!)

[Segev]

Sorcerers have more free cash flow than Wizards, because the Wizard has to spend money buying all those spells and scribing them into their spellbooks.False. It is far cheaper to scribe those spells, once, into the spellbook than it is to buy all those scrolls every time you need to refresh them. At worst, for the wizard, he is behind after the first round of buying all the scrolls and scribing them into his book: the wizard has paid for the scrolls AND the scribing and has used his own spell slots, while the sorcerer just paid for the scrolls and didn't even use his own spell slots. The second time both need to refresh these long-term defenses, the wizard spends some spell slots, while the sorcerer buys all those scrolls again. The second set of scrolls costs more than the scribing did. Wizard is ahead, and will get further ahead each time they both need to refresh their spells. And the wizard, using his own CL for durations, will have to do it less and less often.


It is not quite the same thing for an arcane caster to have an arcane scroll to supplement their capabilities as it is for a fighter to carry dozens of one-shot items.
Sure it is. The sorcerer in question is exploiting his class feature that those spells are on his spell list, so he can spend half the gold that the fighter is spending. In terms of actually being able to cast these spells without a one-shot magic item, however, the sorcerer (once built and without those spells in his spells known list) is no more capable with them than is the fighter.

Meanwhile, the rogue with a sufficiently high UMD check is JUST as capable as the sorcerer!

[Pan151]

False. It is far cheaper to scribe those spells, once, into the spellbook than it is to buy all those scrolls every time you need to refresh them.

That would be correct if you actually needed lots of scrolls. But you don't.

As a sorcerer, most of the time you'll be able to solve whatever you want with the spells you know. Because, contrary to popular belief, once you get to higher levels as a sorcerer, you do have a truckload of different spells - not quite as many as a wizard, obviously, but enough to rarely ever need something different. You're not gonna be using those scrolls all that often - they'll be for the odd time you'll need to divine/craft/curse etc something, or face some situation that requires some particularly obscure spell (and which cannot be produced with energy substitution or any other metamagic effect)

[Segev]

That would be correct if you actually needed lots of scrolls. But you don't.

As a sorcerer, most of the time you'll be able to solve whatever you want with the spells you know. Because, contrary to popular belief, once you get to higher levels as a sorcerer, you do have a truckload of different spells - not quite as many as a wizard, obviously, but enough to rarely ever need something different. You're not gonna be using those scrolls all that often - they'll be for the odd time you'll need to divine/craft/curse etc something, or face some situation that requires some particularly obscure spell (and which cannot be produced with energy substitution or any other metamagic effect)

I get the impression you're ignoring the premise of the conversation, here. This isn't about having the right spell for the task. This is about the wizard taking advantage of his ability to change his load-out to use downtime to cast long-duration spells that will make him more secure and more ready at all times. Planar Bindings, Alarms, Contingent spells, traps set up to ward his usual sleeping area, etc.

These have expirations, whether it's "on trigger" or just a matter of days or weeks.

A wizard can have these spells in his spellbook, but not bother clogging up his prepped spells with them on adventuring days. A sorcerer, to have them, has to KNOW them, which clogs spells known forever.

The argument was that a wizard spends money on scribing the spells into his spellbook, so the sorcerer has more to spend on the scrolls. That argument doesn't hold water when this becomes a regular expense.

Thus, a sorcerer is not as prepared when some guy decides to ambush him at night: he either lacks the wizard's extensive preparations from long-duration magics that are rigged up in place as a security system, or he's spent far more money than the wizard to keep these effects up regularly.

[Pan151]

I get the impression you're ignoring the premise of the conversation, here. This isn't about having the right spell for the task. This is about the wizard taking advantage of his ability to change his load-out to use downtime to cast long-duration spells that will make him more secure and more ready at all times. Planar Bindings, Alarms, Contingent spells, traps set up to ward his usual sleeping area, etc.

These have expirations, whether it's "on trigger" or just a matter of days or weeks.

A wizard can have these spells in his spellbook, but not bother clogging up his prepped spells with them on adventuring days. A sorcerer, to have them, has to KNOW them, which clogs spells known forever.

The argument was that a wizard spends money on scribing the spells into his spellbook, so the sorcerer has more to spend on the scrolls. That argument doesn't hold water when this becomes a regular expense.

Thus, a sorcerer is not as prepared when some guy decides to ambush him at night: he either lacks the wizard's extensive preparations from long-duration magics that are rigged up in place as a security system, or he's spent far more money than the wizard to keep these effects up regularly.

Again, contrary to common belief, sorcerers do learn quite a few spells as they level up. They can afford spending a few spells known for things like alarm and contigency if they need to.

Are wizards better suited for OOC magic than sorcerers? Certainly, I have already said that in my previous post. But please don't tell me that sorcerers are so constrained in their available spells that they would not be able to cast a contigency, or something like persistent invisibility, or even just a simple rope trick. Or hell, if they really need to cast something then they can shapechange into something that can cast it and be done with it...

[Segev]

Every time you add another spell to the list of "things a Sorcerer could learn for use in downtime to prepare," you reduce the number of spells he has available for the commontly-touted "broad enough variety to be ready for most situations" setup that makes his spontaneous casting worthwhile.

He can have them, sure. I'd daresay a sorcerer with nothing BUT such spells would be nearly as powerful as most wizards, simply by relying on his long-term minions and preparations to keep him effective in adventuring as well. He wouldn't get a lot of use out of his spontaneous casting on an adventuring day, but he'd still be effective.

A wizard just will do it a bit better and more efficiently.

[CombatOwl]

Greetings, all!

I'm well familiar with the tier system. A Wizard is tier 1. A Sorcerer is tier 2. Both cast spells from the same list, with minor exclusive spells for one class. Sorcerers cast everything spontaneously while Wizards need to prepare every spell (with some exceptions (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=474.0)),

A Sorcerer gets access to spell levels 2+ a character level later than a Wizard.

Yet, there are times when a Sorcerer is better than a Wizard. When are those times? Assume all official material is allowed. "Dragon" and "Dungeon" material is also allowed. (Make note if you're using such things.)

Sorcerers are better than wizards around level 12ish. They've had enough levels to pick up the essential feats (rapid metamagic, a few metamagic feats for their spell choices, etc), they have a respectable array of options more than sufficient to overcome anything that's level appropriate (or even several CR higher than level appropriate), and they can overcome those challenges WAY more times per day than wizards, unless the party has been willing to shovel money at the party wizard for spells and wands (which they could have done for the sorcerer anyway).

High level sorcerers with a wide array of metamagic and rapid metamagic absolutely destroy high level wizards for momentary versatility. People often don't recognize this, but you really don't need a dozen ways to kill something with each of the three saves. You really don't need more than a handful of single target and AOE damage spells. You really only need so many buffs and debuffs, because after a point nothing is stacking anymore. Sorcerers can have all of the actual utility of a wizard, but do it more often and with fewer restrictions on how much of it can be done in any given day.

Sure, a wizard can have more spells known--even more spells prepared. But if they've only got one baleful polymorph prepared and you really needed three, that's a failure of versatility. One that sorcerers wouldn't have had.


I get the impression you're ignoring the premise of the conversation, here. This isn't about having the right spell for the task. This is about the wizard taking advantage of his ability to change his load-out to use downtime to cast long-duration spells that will make him more secure and more ready at all times. Planar Bindings, Alarms, Contingent spells, traps set up to ward his usual sleeping area, etc.

I'm having a hard time seeing why the sorcerer wouldn't pick up planar binding and magic circle. Or why they wouldn't craft contingencies. Yes, their contingencies are slightly more expensive because they have to buy a scroll of it, or get the spell from a staff or wand. So what?

You usually have spells known to burn, if you've taken the right metamagic feats. You can fill most tactical roles with a dozen spells or so. You have quite a lot of spots to fill up with other stuff.


A wizard can have these spells in his spellbook, but not bother clogging up his prepped spells with them on adventuring days. A sorcerer, to have them, has to KNOW them, which clogs spells known forever.

No more than a wizard is clogging up his spell book by scribing useful spells. Note; you could just buy 1/day items of those two spells if you really felt that it was too much to devote two spells known to being able to bind outsiders.


Thus, a sorcerer is not as prepared when some guy decides to ambush him at night: he either lacks the wizard's extensive preparations from long-duration magics that are rigged up in place as a security system, or he's spent far more money than the wizard to keep these effects up regularly.

I have no idea what you're talking about. A high level sorcerer is basically a walking wish spell twice per round. You'll almost certainly have some spell + feat combo that can deal with the problem at hand, just like a wizard replicating spells with Wish.

[Pan151]

Every time you add another spell to the list of "things a Sorcerer could learn for use in downtime to prepare," you reduce the number of spells he has available for the commontly-touted "broad enough variety to be ready for most situations" setup that makes his spontaneous casting worthwhile.

He can have them, sure. I'd daresay a sorcerer with nothing BUT such spells would be nearly as powerful as most wizards, simply by relying on his long-term minions and preparations to keep him effective in adventuring as well. He wouldn't get a lot of use out of his spontaneous casting on an adventuring day, but he'd still be effective.

A wizard just will do it a bit better and more efficiently.

Ok, lets take a moment to look at what a sorcerer actually needs to be ok in 99% of all situations.

a)Damage. Because of energy substitution, they only need to pick one blasting spell per spell level (maybe 2 in the levels where you have missile storms) and they can damage almost any creature. Wizards are worse off, as they have to pick energy types before they actually get into the fight

b)Utility. The wizards will always be better at that, no doubt here. However, we're not talking about the amount of utility magic needed to run a mage tower - simple things like prestidigitation, rope trick, invisibility, true sight etc will cover almost all of your adventuring needs and take up comparitively few of spell known slots. So, unless you are planing on creating a magical stroghold or something, sorcerer is inferior, but only slightly.

c) Buffs, d) Control. These will take up the rest of a sorcerer's spells. You're not gonna be able to match a wizard that has studied the upcoming encounters well, but then again a wizard cought by surprise will not have the correct types of control and buffs. And, even if it does, casting undeath's eternal foe when againt skeletons only wins extra style points vs a good ol' fireball to the face.

So, in short, unless you're trying to make some mage tower overlord, I just don't see that wizard superiority...

[aleucard]

This is mainly a value judgement. Sorcerer is better when the things on his side of the equation weigh more than the Wizard's. Those sides are;

Sorc:
1) Spontaneous Casting of everything he knows/has a knowstone for.

2) Several juicy Sorcerer-only spells that make several tactics (though especially blasting) much easier.

3) Thanks to #1, the ability to completely abuse the mortal **** out of Reserve feats in a pinch, allowing them to do the Warlock's shtick in miniature. If your DM allows you to consider Heighten Spell for this, all reserve feats are keyed off your highest available spell slot at all times; even without this, the attack Feats are almost always better than any weapon you could pull out if you run dry on spells, even factoring in what you did with that last spell.

4) The vast majority of their fun can be had while they're bare-ass naked, making the "locked in a dungeon" scenario and its relatives much less painful.

5) Roughly 50% more spell slots than a wizard, allowing for more vigorous pre-fight buffing, more spectacular nova-ing, and more staying power when needed. The use of this is limited, though.

6) Due to its nature, the Sorcerer is much simpler to play than a Wizard. This allows for much more hassle-free gameplay, and much less work to match you is required of the DM to provide an interesting/challenging experience without you crippling yourself.


Wizard:

1) Has the potential to relatively cheaply learn and use every spell on their list. Ability to actually pull it off will be limited by the DM if they're smart, but only so much can be done without swiping or torching the spellbook.

2) Has absurdly high Int, allowing for minor skillmonkey shenanigans and obviously all the fun to be had with the Knowledge skills.

3) Has the potential to spontaneously cast ALL Div spells on their list regardless of their position in his spell book with a single feat, opening up Scry and Die and its relatives at all times. Exact utility of this is highly DM dependent, though it is rarely useless.

4) Prepares spells with Metamagic baked in, allowing for normal casting times (not that necessary, Sorcerer can easily overcome or ignore this handicap) and Heighten+Reserve abuse as RAW. The second is much more volatile than the Sorcerer's method for use, especially since you have fewer spell slots, but the spells for these are rarely wastes of action to cast at later levels if needed.

5) Due to a combination of several of the previous points, this class is one of the few viable for playing the 'God' role in the party as it's more widely known. We all know just how beastly this is, does anything else need to be said?


Which one is up your alley will vary, but while the difference is clear, they are much closer than most people realize. Really, it's just a matter of playstyle. If you think about it, it's visible even from just looking at the casting stats. Sorcerer is hardwired for being Mister Shock and Awe, while Wizard is the Chessmaster Incarnate. I personally prefer the first, but still.

[Psyren]

I think the expenditure thing is a wash because while the wizard does have to spend money on scribing, they also get bonus feats that can go to money-saving pursuites like crafting without harming their effectiveness. The money saved on crafting (as opposed to shopping for) a single +6 headband, high-level staff or ring can pay for a lot of scribing costs.

In addition, wizards get (and can be perfectly effective with) free spells from leveling too. And if they know in advance that scrolls will be hard to come by they can even increase this amount from 2/level by various means.

[Ansem]

@Aleucard, Rapid Metamagic obsoletes Wizard 4 and beats it fair and square, making the Sorcerer even better.

[Segev]

Ansem, nobody is saying sorcerers can't be effective. They're Tier 2 for a very good reason. "They only need this list of effects" doesn't really cut it for justifying claiming they're invariably better than wizards, though.

When playing a sorcerer, I always feel the pinch on spells known, because I can't cover every base AND manage the uber-prep of a wizard due to long-term effects. I generally find I abandon the uber-prep and go for a solid theme with sorcerers, for that reason.

That doesn't mean sorcerers are weak! It just means wizards are better in the "bad guy ambushes you at night" scenario to which I originally responded about long-term spells cast during downtime.


To make your case that sorcerers are just plain better, you're going to have to post that optimal spells known list so we can see that you cover all bases in ways that wizards just can't beat.

[Ansem]

Ansem, nobody is saying sorcerers can't be effective. They're Tier 2 for a very good reason. "They only need this list of effects" doesn't really cut it for justifying claiming they're invariably better than wizards, though.

When playing a sorcerer, I always feel the pinch on spells known, because I can't cover every base AND manage the uber-prep of a wizard due to long-term effects. I generally find I abandon the uber-prep and go for a solid theme with sorcerers, for that reason.

That doesn't mean sorcerers are weak! It just means wizards are better in the "bad guy ambushes you at night" scenario to which I originally responded about long-term spells cast during downtime.


To make your case that sorcerers are just plain better, you're going to have to post that optimal spells known list so we can see that you cover all bases in ways that wizards just can't beat.

Nothing to do with being a Wizard, you either are good at what you do, or you suck at everything. 101 of character building.

[Segev]

Nothing to do with being a Wizard, you either are good at what you do, or you suck at everything. 101 of character building.

I somehow suspect you are taking a different meaning from the phrase you bolded when you quoted me than I am using. I am not sure what meaning you ARE taking, though. I genuinely do not know how to parse your response and choice of bolded quote in context with each other.

[Emperor Tippy]

Nothing to do with being a Wizard, you either are good at what you do, or you suck at everything. 101 of character building.

Until potentially six seconds later when you can totally rebuild your character and be one step short of a god killer.

In the most extreme case a wizard can manage a near total character rebuild in an immediate action. All feats re selected, all skills re-allocated, a new spellbook with all the desired spells that you want gained, and all spells re-prepared. Done as an immediate action.

With twenty minutes you can also re-pick all of your items.

With a week you can rebuild all of your levels except your first one.

Tier 1 is Tier 1 because those classes can have pretty much the perfect solution to any problem on a days notice while also having the power to blast nations to ash and generally be extinction level events if they so desire.

Tier 2 can manage the extinction level events power level, which is the only real divider between Tier 2 and Tier 3 but it can't manage to have whatever solution it desires to a given problem on a days notice.

[Talya]

I'm a big fan of the sorcerer, and while the ancestral relic for a custom runestaff is certainly a great idea, I question exactly how it makes the sorcerer better than the wizard.

You still have an inflexible group of spells on the runestaff that, while they can greatly increase your spells known, don't let you pick any spell you want on the fly.

I would argue that a pathfinder half-elf sorcerer with Paragon Surge is, overall, better than a wizard, at least at even levels.
You have all the spells you'd normally memorize if you were a wizard as known spells. In the unlikely event you need one you don't know (pathfinder sorcerers can get an obscene number of spells known if they take advantage of favored class bonuses), you just paragon-surge expanded arcana for it.

[aleucard]

@Aleucard, Rapid Metamagic obsoletes Wizard 4 and beats it fair and square, making the Sorcerer even better.

I already mentioned that in the point itself, my main thing was the 2nd half anyway. Yeah, reserve feats don't really come into major consideration all that often, but having something to do besides plink away with a probably-crappy crossbow and 1/2 BAB if you're out of gas (save that last spell, a potential Hail-Mary depending on what feat is being charged with it) is a massive benefit when it comes up. Yeah, if you can fill each level with relevant spells Sorcerer does this better, but if you can't and you're not allowed the admittedly cheesy usage of Heighten Spell, you're out of luck. Wizard don't have to worry about that, in trade for not being able to power multiple Reserves on one slot. Give and take.

[Piggy Knowles]

I don't have much to add to this thread, except....

The argument of "wizards are worse when they prepared the wrong spells for that day" never really holds water to me. Independent of things like Uncanny Forethought that make the whole argument moot, it's a problem that goes both ways.

A wizard who makes a bad choice in picking spells one day can make up for it the very next day.

A sorcerer who makes a bad choice in picking spells one day can make up for it in about sixteen encounters.

Basically, a sorcerer has to either risk making the same bad choices as a wizard, and get screwed for an entire level instead of an entire day, or it has to choose less effective options that are at least somewhat useful in a wider variety of applications - something that the wizard can ALSO do when choosing spells, but that also means the sorcerer is using blunter tools, so to speak.

Finally, the whole idea of more spell slots is pretty silly. At almost every level where it matters, the WIZARD has equal or more high level spell slots than the sorcerer does. Assuming standard specialization, and not including bonus spells, it breaks down like so:

LEVEL 1: Wizard has two first level spells, sorcerer has three.
LEVEL 2: Wizard has three first level spells, sorcerer has four.
LEVEL 3: Wizard has two second level spells, sorcerer has zero.
LEVEL 4: Wizard has three second level spells, sorcerer has three.
LEVEL 5: Wizard has two third level spells, sorcerer has zero.
LEVEL 6: Wizard has three third level spells, sorcerer has three.

...and so on, all the way up to 20th level, when the sorcerer pulls ahead again. From level 3 through level 19, the wizard has the same or more of their highest level spell than the sorcerer. That's a pretty significant advantage, even if the sorcerer does have more low level spells.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's all fine and good... except that game goes both ways. If the players can figure out what they need to counter the enemies, so can the enemies figure out what they need to counter that counter. And it's a game that, in the end, will be won by the one that has the most recources (which will usually be the antagonist). Or the could simply ambush you in your sleep - see how well you can memorise that morderkainen's disjunction while a couple Balors are trying to bash your head flat.

That's the chess game that high level casters have to play. The amount of resources available matter less than you think. How you use the resources available is -much- more important. The DM also has to consider the rest of the party and trying to muscle past the wizard by throwing more resources at the problem will crush the wizard's allies unless they're all T1's too. There's also the consideration of just how smart the enemy in question is; BBEG is a cleric, wizard, or powerful outsider himself, sure; BBEG is a non-caster or a beastie, not so much.

Ambushes in the night aren't a thing past level 5 and extended rope trick.


Meanwhile, the sorcerer simply walks in and the enemy can do nothing about it.

If you "just walk in" to anywhere at high level you will be -murdered- like a punk 9 times out of 10. High level characters can't "just do" anything carelessly. They live in a dangerous world with great big targets on their backs.


The wizard will be more useful in OOC situations, that much is certain, but in (high level) combat sorcerers reign supreme. Assuming of course that the antagonist is not a 1-dimentional cliche and the DM's plot and strategy is not so bad as to be easily readable from a mile away.

Out of combat situations are a significant part of the game and cannot be ignored in weighing which class is "better." Highly optimized casters often win or lose a combat encounter with a single spell, especially at high levels. The ability to cast on the fly becomes of diminishing importance and if a wizard thinks he'll need that spell again on the same day he can prepare it again in an open slot immediately after the fight he used it in with a simple 15 minute rest.


Congratulations, you just wasted 5000 exp. Enjoy having to do that every time your dm pulls off an inconvenient encounter. And next time you face another high level wizard, see who of the 2 of you can wish themselves to 0 exp the fastest...
Or you could have just picked a sorcerer and always have a good combination of spells available.

It's an emergency tactic and there are ways to bypass the XP cost. For example; you can burn a level on cleric for all the goodness that is a 1 level cleric dip and then take 4 levels in dweomerkeeper from levels 15-18. Supernatural spell says one free wish per day, A.K.A. the perfect spell for the problem once per day, no cheese required. Granted that does run into the problem of free wishes.

[upho]

Is there a detailed handbook or walk-through that explains how to achieve this? I would be interested in reading such a work.Unless someone has already posted a link (didn't see one) or found a better handbook, here's the Short Sorcerer's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1549531). Has more than enough info to make a true sorcerer god. (And it happens to have been written by my brother IRL! :smalltongue: He hasn't updated it to the new forum format though, so the layout may be a bit wonky...)